Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
This inspires me to do a different calculation based on biological and physical facts: According to (German) Wikipedia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auflösungsvermögen the human eye can separate two distinct points if they are displaced in an angle of 2' (2 minutes, i.e. 0.0333 degrees). For lines and structures the resultion is up to 0.3' (i.e. 0.005 degrees). Now, if you hold the display in distance of 40cm from your eyes (half arm-length), this translates to (40cm * tan(0.0 deg)) 0.02 cm, i.e. 0.2 mm to see separate points. On a display with 4.5 x 6 cm this means it should have at least 225 x 300 pixels ~ 130 dpi. QVGA. But stop - to see separate points, you must have one that is on, then one that is off and again one that is on. I.e. you need twice the pixel density or you would simply have a homogenous surface! = 450 x 600 pixels ~ 260 dpi i.e. VGA Now, the 2' was to distinguish two single white spots on an otherwise black background. The lines and structure resolution of our eyes and our image processing unit is much better. So, more than VGA is definitively seen as better by most people (or they need new glasses). Antialiasing just does a low-pass filter on the image so that the eye is not so much disturbed by the rasterization of the pixels. Conclusion: * QVGA is much worse than the precision of the human eye, so I would assume most people can read a better display * Antialiasing does not improve the information content, it just smoothens the edges * VGA appears to match the precision to see two separated dots * VGA would still be observed as superior * Antialiasing is no longer required if we go to approx. 1200 x 1500 pixels ~650 dpi on a 2.8 '' display in a distance of 40cm. This is the biophysical limit where improved resultion becomes invisible. If you hold it closer (with appropriate glasses or young eyes) you will still be able to see pixels. Finally let's try a look into the future: in 10 years such high resolution displays may be available (e-book!) since the display manufacturers already know this and work towards the limits. But since all the discussion wasn't about quality but display and CPU cost this is not important... Nikolaus Am 17.06.2008 um 07:17 schrieb Hans L: On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Dale Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be like with something like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for characters + 1px spacing). Note that the automatic smear bold make this font unreadable, but the non-bold works. However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display with 285dpi, like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80- *' I think that in order to most accurately simulate the viewing experience of a handheld device, ideally you want to show the same number of pixels in a particular angle of view. Since the pixels per inch of the GTA display are most likely not the same as your computer monitor, you can adjust this effective angle of view by changing your distance from your monitor. After some wikipedia and a little arithmetic, I think that the situation can be simplified to the following equation: Dcm = Dhh * PPIhh / PPIcm Dcm = viewing distance of computer monitor Dhh = viewing distance of hand-held device PPIhh = Pixels Per Inch of hand-held device PPIhh = Pixels Per Inch of computer monitor I held up my current phone, as if I was about to type something on the keypad, and determined that a comfortable position for me is to hold my phone roughly 12 in front of my eyes. The GTA02 device has 640 pixels along it's longest dimension of 2.27. 640 / 2.27 is about 282 PPI The monitor I'm using right now has 1024 pixels on its horizontal, and is 12 wide, which comes to about 85 pixels per inch. So, in order to simulate the GTA02 displaying VGA xterm at 12 viewing distance: 12 * 282ppi / 85ppi = about 40 I can then view this command from 40 away from my monitor: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80- *' ...and it will theoretically take up the same field of view as a (VGA) GTA02 at 12 To compare with a same sized QVGA screen, view at half distance as previous command(20 for me): xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' Disclaimer: I'm certainly no expert in visual perception or optics, and even my geometry is a little rusty, so please correct me if any of this doesn't make sense. So, with the geeky number crunching out of the way, my conclusion to this experiment is that I find that (my simulated version of) 640x480 on a 2.27 screen is very readable at 80x24, and very useful (to my eyes anyways). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Dale Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be like with something like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for characters + 1px spacing). Note that the automatic smear bold make this font unreadable, but the non-bold works. However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display with 285dpi, like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' I think that in order to most accurately simulate the viewing experience of a handheld device, ideally you want to show the same number of pixels in a particular angle of view. Since the pixels per inch of the GTA display are most likely not the same as your computer monitor, you can adjust this effective angle of view by changing your distance from your monitor. After some wikipedia and a little arithmetic, I think that the situation can be simplified to the following equation: Dcm = Dhh * PPIhh / PPIcm Dcm = viewing distance of computer monitor Dhh = viewing distance of hand-held device PPIhh = Pixels Per Inch of hand-held device PPIhh = Pixels Per Inch of computer monitor I held up my current phone, as if I was about to type something on the keypad, and determined that a comfortable position for me is to hold my phone roughly 12 in front of my eyes. The GTA02 device has 640 pixels along it's longest dimension of 2.27. 640 / 2.27 is about 282 PPI The monitor I'm using right now has 1024 pixels on its horizontal, and is 12 wide, which comes to about 85 pixels per inch. So, in order to simulate the GTA02 displaying VGA xterm at 12 viewing distance: 12 * 282ppi / 85ppi = about 40 I can then view this command from 40 away from my monitor: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' ...and it will theoretically take up the same field of view as a (VGA) GTA02 at 12 To compare with a same sized QVGA screen, view at half distance as previous command(20 for me): xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' Disclaimer: I'm certainly no expert in visual perception or optics, and even my geometry is a little rusty, so please correct me if any of this doesn't make sense. So, with the geeky number crunching out of the way, my conclusion to this experiment is that I find that (my simulated version of) 640x480 on a 2.27 screen is very readable at 80x24, and very useful (to my eyes anyways). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
On Wed, June 11, 2008 2:59 am, Dale Schumacher wrote: If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be like with something like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for characters + 1px spacing). Note that the automatic smear bold make this font unreadable, but the non-bold works. However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display with 285dpi, like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' Thank you for that. You have added some useful light to the discussion on graphics resolution compared with all the heat. It is a simple test that anyone running Linux, or most other X servers (even cygwin) can run. Having tried the test myself I would say the difference is like night and day. At QVGA you can just about log into your box to reboot your web server if you need to, but the whole experence is quite painfull. At full VGA you can examine log files and the like and actualy figure out the root cause of any problems and fix them. This is the difference between windows sysadmins (reboot at the first sign of trouble), and unix sysadmins who actually find and fix the root cause. For myself I already have a QVGA Nokia phone with PuTTy, so I can log in remotely in an emergency, but VGA is so nice that with a Freerunner I probably would log in in other situations as well. -- David Pottage Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
Thanks Dale, as David says it's this simply test makes the things very clear, whit bold there's is no way but as I said before this font on the freerunner can be used to previews, icons and a way to have various text files opens at time and intuit of what's about and then to work use the second one. --- El mié, 11/6/08, David Pottage [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: David Pottage [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Fecha: miércoles, 11 junio, 2008 10:18 On Wed, June 11, 2008 2:59 am, Dale Schumacher wrote: If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be like with something like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for characters + 1px spacing). Note that the automatic smear bold make this font unreadable, but the non-bold works. However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display with 285dpi, like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' Thank you for that. You have added some useful light to the discussion on graphics resolution compared with all the heat. It is a simple test that anyone running Linux, or most other X servers (even cygwin) can run. Having tried the test myself I would say the difference is like night and day. At QVGA you can just about log into your box to reboot your web server if you need to, but the whole experence is quite painfull. At full VGA you can examine log files and the like and actualy figure out the root cause of any problems and fix them. This is the difference between windows sysadmins (reboot at the first sign of trouble), and unix sysadmins who actually find and fix the root cause. For myself I already have a QVGA Nokia phone with PuTTy, so I can log in remotely in an emergency, but VGA is so nice that with a Freerunner I probably would log in in other situations as well. -- David Pottage Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
But I have no knowlege about this font, hehehe I like it. ~70 chars/line in the example of 291 pixels so in a 640 will be about ~160 chars in one line (penden to confirm the minimum distance to be readable maybe 3 cm hehehe well now seriouly I was able to read the example in a 1280x768 10.6 inch screen so about 140 dpi in 40 cm distance with no movement (in a desk). I totally agree that this font is not for work but it can be used to make a text thumbnail in a icon of a text file or to and advanced text editor had a mosaic quickview of all open text files Only dumb maths 160 columns x 60 lines = 4600 chars per screen (well maybe a lot of strange dots on a screen) --- El mar, 10/6/08, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED], Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 8:04 I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse many of the characters on that image. On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so my eyesight is relatively good . Robert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03)
If your current display is around 150dpi, you can see what QVGA would be like with something like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-*--6-*-c-40*' This will give you a terminal window with a 4x6 font cell (3x5 for characters + 1px spacing). Note that the automatic smear bold make this font unreadable, but the non-bold works. However, I would much prefer to use a larger font on a VGA-size display with 285dpi, like this: xterm -fn '*-clean-med*--16-*-c-80-*' -fb '*-clean-bold*--16-*-c-80-*' -- Forwarded message -- From: David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:44:35 + (GMT) Subject: Re: Font type and size was (QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03) But I have no knowlege about this font, hehehe I like it. ~70 chars/line in the example of 291 pixels so in a 640 will be about ~160 chars in one line (penden to confirm the minimum distance to be readable maybe 3 cm hehehe well now seriouly I was able to read the example in a 1280x768 10.6 inch screen so about 140 dpi in 40 cm distance with no movement (in a desk). I totally agree that this font is not for work but it can be used to make a text thumbnail in a icon of a text file or to and advanced text editor had a mosaic quickview of all open text files Only dumb maths 160 columns x 60 lines = 4600 chars per screen (well maybe a lot of strange dots on a screen) --- El mar, 10/6/08, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED], Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 8:04 I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse many of the characters on that image. On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible. http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gifhttp://hea-www.harvard.edu/%7Efine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so my eyesight is relatively good . Robert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
