RE: Free Your Phone
Here's my understanding of this comment, to clear things up: the story is that he was in front of a really enthusiastic crowd, and the comment was a joke about the way the crowd was looking up to him. Totally not an arrogant statement. Even if I don't agree with every one of his other opinions, I still think it was a pretty funny comment, and not inappropriate at all in the context. Linus Torvalds is possibly the least arrogant person I've ever encountered. People say _I'm_ arrogant, but I know better than that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/24/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He said what? Christ, give me Richard Stallman any day. Renaissance Man On 24 Jan 2007, at 1:03 am, Marcus Bauer wrote: Linus Torvalds once jokingly said: I am your god. Here's my understanding of this comment, to clear things up: the story is that he was in front of a really enthusiastic crowd, and the comment was a joke about the way the crowd was looking up to him. Totally not an arrogant statement. Even if I don't agree with every one of his other opinions, I still think it was a pretty funny comment, and not inappropriate at all in the context. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
He said what? Christ, give me Richard Stallman any day. Renaissance Man On 24 Jan 2007, at 1:03 am, Marcus Bauer wrote: Linus Torvalds once jokingly said: I am your god. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/22/07 5:28 PM, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never has this project been about exploiting people. If you ready _any_ of our documents you will find that we're trying to create an open ecosystem for the mobile industry. Sure I hope this will make us money. Otherwise I would have neither A) the credit or B) the financial resources to go on pursuing my dreams. -Sean (sorry for my English) Don't get me wrong. I like (and share) your idea and I will try to be among the first wave of people who will buy the device (if I will be allowed after my post ;-) ) and start to develop for it. Then why claim that I'm trying to exploit people? The only problem I have as a developer with the project is it's real identity. Today in the time of a 'new' internet economy is becoming very common to use communities as a part of a business plan and camouflage this step as another open source geeky projects (like the ones hosted on sourceforge etc). While I have no problem to invest my energy and free time to work on these enthusiastic projects I will be(maybe as a only one in this group) more careful to do the same for the project where my position will be reduced to become a member of an external workforce (from the perspective of you or the company behind it) who is not even on a payroll. I fear that this is getting into a Free Will type argument. Nobody's holding a gun to your head and saying Develop for OpenMoko or your dead. What you do with our code is your choice. That's what GPL is all about. I don't see anything arrogant on my post and I consider my question as a legitimate one in the context of a really open community. I now understand that English is not your native tongue. Please forgive me directness, being a foreigner myself, I understand what it's like to use the wrong words unintentionally ;-) Exploit ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
[sorry, I pressed the wrong button before I finished] On 1/22/07 5:28 PM, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:35 22.1.2007, you wrote: On 1/22/07 4:58 AM, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... I wasn't going to respond to this email, but I find your response quite arrogant and feel I need correct you. Never has this project been about exploiting people. If you ready _any_ of our documents you will find that we're trying to create an open ecosystem for the mobile industry. Sure I hope this will make us money. Otherwise I would have neither A) the credit or B) the financial resources to go on pursuing my dreams. -Sean (sorry for my English) Don't get me wrong. I like (and share) your idea and I will try to be among the first wave of people who will buy the device (if I will be allowed after my post ;-) ) and start to develop for it. The only problem I have as a developer with the project is it's real identity. Today in the time of a 'new' internet economy is becoming very common to use communities as a part of a business plan and camouflage this step as another open source geeky projects (like the ones hosted on sourceforge etc). While I have no problem to invest my energy and free time to work on these enthusiastic projects I will be(maybe as a only one in this group) more careful to do the same for the project where my position will be reduced to become a member of an external workforce (from the perspective of you or the company behind it) who is not even on a payroll. (sorry for my English) Don't get me wrong. I like (and share) your idea and I will try to be among the first wave of people who will buy the device (if I will be allowed after my post ;-) ) and start to develop for it. Then why claim that I'm trying to exploit people? The only problem I have as a developer with the project is it's real identity. Today in the time of a 'new' internet economy is becoming very common to use communities as a part of a business plan and camouflage this step as another open source geeky projects (like the ones hosted on sourceforge etc). While I have no problem to invest my energy and free time to work on these enthusiastic projects I will be(maybe as a only one in this group) more careful to do the same for the project where my position will be reduced to become a member of an external workforce (from the perspective of you or the company behind it) who is not even on a payroll. I fear that this is getting into a Free Will type argument. Nobody's holding a gun to your head and saying Develop for OpenMoko or your dead. What you do with our code is your choice. That's what GPL is all about. I don't see anything arrogant on my post and I consider my question as a legitimate one in the context of a really open community. I now understand that English is not your native tongue. Please forgive my directness, being a foreigner myself, I understand what it's like to use the wrong words unintentionally ;-) Exploit used in the context of people, is something not to be taking lightly. I _really_ don't want to come across as guy trying to exploit others for my personal benefit. Creating this project was not for exploitation. I sincerely want to see an open phone because I think it will benefit many people, including myself. But again, if you still feel this is exploitation, there are many companies making closed phones. Go buy one of them. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 17:35, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 5:28 PM, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then why claim that I'm trying to exploit people? Well, in his defence - and for whatever it's worth - when I read his post, I immediately took exploit in the more positive usage of the term, i.e. definition #1: ex·ploit Pronunciation (ksploit, k-sploit) n. 1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage 2. To make use of selfishly or unethically Perhaps he did in fact mean #2, which would have been pretty uncool and totally off the mark. I think it's more than clear that you and your team are 120% sincere and serious when it comes to the open/free aspects of the OpenMoko model. The geek community is going to be employed to the greatest possible advantage _naturally_ - through the sheer merits of the OpenMoko platform itself, and through the community that's bound to prosper around it. Beers! Corey ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 08:42 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Exploit used in the context of people, is something not to be taking lightly. I _really_ don't want to come across as guy trying to exploit others for my personal benefit. Creating this project was not for exploitation. I sincerely want to see an open phone because I think it will benefit many people, including myself. Linus Torvalds once jokingly said: I am your god. god is probably a bit exaggerated, but I'm sure a majority here agrees to say: You are our hero! Keep up the great work. Marcus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 4:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reason I ask is I'd like to propose an OpenMoko T-shirt, with the now-official tag-line. I'd buy and where that right away. If we don't have a logo yet, perhaps that artist who joined recently could help? Michael, wishing for Free Your Phone T-shirts and stickers Coming soon... ;-) I hope I can order one together with the phone, lowers cost of shipping :) -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
T Shirts (WAS: Re: Free Your Phone)
On 22/01/07, Sven Neuhaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 4:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reason I ask is I'd like to propose an OpenMoko T-shirt, with the now-official tag-line. I'd buy and where that right away. Michael, wishing for Free Your Phone T-shirts and stickers Coming soon... ;-) I hope I can order one together with the phone, lowers cost of shipping :) LOL Yes that's a fanstastic idea! Sean, will there be a community competition on the design of the shirts? If not for the first edition, which is understandable for reasons of expediency, I hope there will be one later this year :-) The Open Clip Art Library has run design contests, for the Inkscape logo for example, and *example* details are at http://www.openclipart.org/wiki/Contests that might give you some ideas about how to run things. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Hello Milan, I know what you mean. And honestly, who really knows what the true intentions of OpenMoko are. But what I do know, is that regardless of what they do, I will end up with a phone that I can hack till my hearts content. And I am not limited to a particular carrier, and apart from the GPS module the entire platform is open. Not even the iPhone can claim this. To be graphic: OpenMoko is like a slave-driver giving her slaves the keys to unlock their shackles and telling them they can leave whenever they want, then asking them to work overtime for the next two weeks. The good thing here is that we are not slaves, and we can fork whenever we want. But at this point, this is all I need to know about OpenMoko. Maybe one day, OpenMoko will turn evil. But guess what, we will still have open phones they will still be modifiable in whatever ways we see fit. Sure they might take a few community-sponsored ideas and might even claim them as their own (and sell new closed phones), but I never wanted to get monetary compensation for this. I just wanted a phone that I could hack on and (as corny as this sounds) to share these hacks with my peers and gain their respect. Personally, OpenMoko is not going to turn evil. And the community willing they will continue to produce open phones for many years to come. They benefit from having a community that will push their warez to the limit because so long as we are happy hacking, we are the most likely candidates to get new ones as they become available. We benefit because we get cool phones, that are actually cool. I hope this sort of answers your concerns. PS. I do not work for OpenMoko, I just believe they got a good product on the way. And its about time, someone did this. hopefully I will never have to buy another carrier-bound mobile phone/pda/computer/anything. Say no to Vista. On 1/22/07, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:35 22.1.2007, you wrote: On 1/22/07 4:58 AM, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... I wasn't going to respond to this email, but I find your response quite arrogant and feel I need correct you. Never has this project been about exploiting people. If you ready _any_ of our documents you will find that we're trying to create an open ecosystem for the mobile industry. Sure I hope this will make us money. Otherwise I would have neither A) the credit or B) the financial resources to go on pursuing my dreams. -Sean (sorry for my English) Don't get me wrong. I like (and share) your idea and I will try to be among the first wave of people who will buy the device (if I will be allowed after my post ;-) ) and start to develop for it. The only problem I have as a developer with the project is it's real identity. Today in the time of a 'new' internet economy is becoming very common to use communities as a part of a business plan and camouflage this step as another open source geeky projects (like the ones hosted on sourceforge etc). While I have no problem to invest my energy and free time to work on these enthusiastic projects I will be(maybe as a only one in this group) more careful to do the same for the project where my position will be reduced to become a member of an external workforce (from the perspective of you or the company behind it) who is not even on a payroll. I don't see anything arrogant on my post and I consider my question as a legitimate one in the context of a really open community. Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
At 20:21 22.1.2007, Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, Gervais Mulongoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure they might take a few community-sponsored ideas and might even claim them as their own (and sell new closed phones), If you write free software for the OpenMoko platform and use a good copyleft license like the GNU GPL, you can be sure that no one will ever distribute proprietary versions of it. -- Regards, Dave It's not about stealing ideas or work from a community. It's about using a community to do the job you normally have to pay for. How many units they are going to sell if there is only standard PIM software suite available? Zero. If someone is going to increase the value of the device and making it competitive are developers who will make applications for the platform. You can hire these developers, to have them in house - in both cases you have to pay them OR you can use guys like us to do the job in our free time and just use and control our addiction to hack whatever has a cpu ram. I think we are going to see this 'business model' more and more in coming years since a few companies (like http://www.slimdevices.com/) has made it's fortune from being bought by other old fashion companies (like logitech) after a community add a substantial value to the original subpar product or idea... It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Milan Votava writes: It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants. -- Isaac Newton As long as FIC and OpenMoko treat the developers with respect, we win. If I contribute code, it is with the hope that OpenMoko-based phones will give us more freedom over our means of communication, and not with an eye for monetary recompense. We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite right to start asking for toll. - Tony ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
tony writes: We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite right to start asking for toll. Very well said. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
I couldn't agree more. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these phones. More importantly I can't wait to tell Bell Mobility that im switching over to Rogers HEH. The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. On 1/22/07, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Milan Votava writes: It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 00:30, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. You're lucky it isn't a Windows mobile phone, or you'd have your phones and email tapped by the FBI if you posted that on the manufacturer's website ;o) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
If it was a windows based phone like my company phone (cingular [htc] 2125 and 8125), you'd be threatening to smash it with a baseball bat 17 times a day. Also known as the best ever possible reason why ANY other operating system is a better choice. -david Richard Bennett wrote: On Tuesday 23 January 2007 00:30, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. You're lucky it isn't a Windows mobile phone, or you'd have your phones and email tapped by the FBI if you posted that on the manufacturer's website ;o) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
But it's comments like yours that turn it into something like a religion. The person who proposed this in the first place had a pragmatic argument, not a religious one. Relative to many of you I know little about GNU and Linux but I can certainly see the practical reasons for using the GNU/Linux moniker. In fact the *act* of actually *using* the term GNU/Linux instead of Linux seems to me so trivial I have a hard time understanding why some of you are so opposed to it and want to turn it into a religious discussion. Renaissance Man On 21 Jan 2007, at 5:22 am, Greg Tada wrote: This is so tiring. I think we've all had to deal with this GNU/ Linux vs. Linux war multiple times. How about those of you who care about it argue amongst yourselves instead of clogging our inboxes? WE'VE ALL HEARD IT BEFORE AND CAME TO OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS ALREADY. Why don't we start working constructively on what will make this platform better instead of bickering over religion? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:12:22 + Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it's comments like yours that turn it into something like a religion. The person who proposed this in the first place had a pragmatic argument, not a religious one. Relative to many of you I know little about GNU and Linux but I can certainly see the practical reasons for using the GNU/Linux moniker. In fact the *act* of actually *using* the term GNU/Linux instead of Linux seems to me so trivial I have a hard time understanding why some of you are so opposed to it and want to turn it into a religious discussion. There is a clear distinction between the meanings of the two terms. Linux is just the kernel, while GNU/Linux is the OS, meaning kernel, tools, libraries etc. If you use the term Linux for both, then you have ambiguity and can cause confusion. Nothing religious here, just the practical need to avoid ambuguity. Kindly, Rox signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/21/07 4:57 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/01/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the OpenMoko Linux Distribution Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? We'll just call it OpenMoko. I think short simple branding will be key for us if we want main stream appeal. Don't worry though, I have something special in the form of a user's manual that will give credit to GNU. Given that the free software nature of the phone is its primary feature, it seems strange not to acknowledge the GNU project, which is the whole reason there is free software at all... We will definitely acknowledge this. Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! It will for sure! This just popped into my head one day while taking a shower. I think it's really started to stick. Plus somebody who knows _nothing_ about Free Software can still related to it. Thanks for your comments! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
The point you are avoiding or ignoring is that GNU people are ascribing credit for a single principle contributor. If a contributor of a dwindling side of a ratio of software is a principle, then so must everything else be that went into the development of Linux and this phone that is larger. GNU has this narrow minded focus that they reason that only themselves are fit to be titled such and deem that none others are as worthy as they are. That is the reasoning presented in your argument. My arguments only miss the mark when you decide that only arguments chosen by GNU are applicable. That's not how Open source works, it's the community that decides, not a single entity or person. Since there is always a huge argument going on this list or that list about GNU/Linux, then it is abundantly clear that the community feels your mark isn't being missed. You can't slap your GNU name on somebody's title of something and lay claim to it as a principle contributor if you insist that you are the only contributor of merit worth putting your name in the title. It stinks majorly of hypocrisy. What makes other very heavy contributors to Linux unworthy of credit in the title? Why should GNU get title credit and no others? Why do they ascribe themselves more worthy than everyone else? Just because I committed important bug fixes or new code to sendmail, apache, and the linux kernel, should I demand my name or organization be prefixed before their names? I think not. I have gnome and kde and a plethura of other software suites and packages installed on my computers. GNU software doesn't even come close to 1% of what I have installed. Xorg is a collection of software, -the- underlying collection of software for GUI. KDE and GNOME are also collections of software and for anyone that runs GUI, they are pretty vital. You can also argue that the underlying KDE/GNOME software is also core software since it is used constantly and always. Even disregarding lines-of-code and # of programs, save for ld, I use other software far more often than I use GNU. I use the kernel -all- the time. As you said, the others do not provide a compiler, linker, debugger, etc. Most people don't use lexers, assemblers, compilers, debuggers, parser generators etc. On top of that there are alternate tools for these. GNU doesn't provide all the shells either. Most people DO use desktop suites. Why isn't Michael van Smoorenburg listed? His software is the -first- userland software run on the vast majority of all of these Linux computers including those on desktops that don't do software development. His software is also arguably more important than the GNU collection. The purpose in the 'GNU/Linux' qualifier, is to explicitly state that the system being referred to is an operating environment which is largely built-from/depends-on the GNU toolchain and includes the linux kernel. And why do GNU insist on ignoring the far larger contribution of others? Your statement about any extra software is identified by the name of the distribution is quite false. To my recollection, the same software packages are available with almost all distributions. A distribution name is possibly best associated with the branding, stock appearances, and package management. Certainly not to identify all the non-GNU software. The _very_means_ you refer to also include non GNU software pretty much every time. You argue the developer's toolchain for GNU's case, but where are all the other tools and software used to _write and build_ Linux software? It's a strawman argument that GNU is the only entity of merit deemed worthy of prefixing their name to everyone. Linux, the OS[1] and kernel, owes it's life and success to a great many people and organizations. Nothing makes any of them any more worthy than any other to have their name prefixed before Linux. I've been developing Linux, the kernel and the OS, since it came on a floppy. I never said GNU was trivial or random, don't put words in my mouth. I do however say that GNU is not -the- great and glorious software collection. I have never said GNU was not worthy of credit nor that their software is unimportant. I do argue assertively that: * they are not the only entity worthy of such distinctive credit, and * that there is a lot more software out there that is worthy of credit, and * there is a lot more software out there that other people would consider as more important, and * Linux refers to the Kernel and OS, including the GNU software. Now I hope you can clearly see that I don't follow the cult of all that is godly GNU and all others are insignificant. There is no reason why GNU and _only_ GNU should have their name prefixed in a distribution's title. Let me try to explain it once again. You implied that I said GNU was some random trivial single piece of userland. GNU software is a collection of software
Re: Free Your Phone
And what are the GNU free distributions to be called? If you cut yourself, do you get a bandaid or medically sterile adsorbent pad attached to an affixable length of flexible material? Band-aid may be trademarked and copyrighted, but that's still what everyone calls such items and there whatever confusion there is .. doesn't really matter to most people. :) -david p.s. it's religious and for every one that feels GNU should be the sole title bearer, there is another that feels they should not. Rok Ruzic wrote: There is a clear distinction between the meanings of the two terms. Linux is just the kernel, while GNU/Linux is the OS, meaning kernel, tools, libraries etc. If you use the term Linux for both, then you have ambiguity and can cause confusion. Nothing religious here, just the practical need to avoid ambuguity. Kindly, Rox ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
BTW Manifesto - I found My Mobile 2.0 Manifesto from Fabrizio Capobianco (funambol) Re: Time for a community manifesto? And let us spread this good News :) Re: Free Your Phone
Salve! Robert Michel schrieb am Samstag, den 20. Januar 2007 um 16:47h: Dear OpenMoko fellows! Seans mail sounds like a manifesto, Debian has one,too, so what do you think when we community would having one as well to emphasise our effort to share knowhow, skills and solutions, and to encourage and support OpenMoko/Neo1973 users to become active with us? Such a community-manifesto would answers Seans call to become active and cooperate with FIC/OpenMoko/Neo1973 - it would be strong and convincing for the media and interested people. I searched webpages for OpenMoko Manifesto and I found this: http://www.funambol.com/blog/capo/2006/11/my-mobile-20-manifesto.html --snipp-- 2. Mobile 2.0 is all about open standards and open platforms. Same as Web 1.0. It all happens when standards get into the mainstream. Let's forget ActiveSync(¹), BlackBerry, Good and the like. Standards are here and will make this big. It is SyncML and others. They are on 800,000,000 phones today. 3. Mobile 2.0 is driven by open source. Open source is the center element of Mobile 2.0. Developers drive it. It is an unstoppable force. Look at what we are doing with OpenMoko(²) and Mobile Linux. Look at Java ME going open source today or the announcement of Motorola a couple of weeks ago. We are pushing big companies to change and move towards open source. It is an unstoppable process. --snapp-- BTW, do we need to care about a Mobile Web 2.0 hype? This manifesto from Fabrizio is still top-down determined by a CEO of a company - a community manifesto could maybe need still some time, but OpenMoko/Neo1973 will open us a door to evolve a power on a smart phone like GNU/Linux, Debian or the Wikipedia - probably stronger, but definitely more flexible then any close source project will be. To have an efficient button-up powered force, or a good cooperation of button-up and top-down projects inside the framework of OpenMoko some help would be needed to give a normal user easy access to information and knowledge - what's going on - where his skills could be used best - and allow to cooperate with a view minutes - like with the wikipedia. A manifesto written by the community could help (keep it in mind)- but also other ideas to help that the users are not an inefficent mass... Greetings, rob ¹ http://www.funambol.com/blog/capo/2006/05/activesync-syncml-and-evil-empire.html ² http://www.funambol.com/blog/capo/2006/11/openmoko-how-you-change-game-in-mobile.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openmoko as tool to enable the users beeing active part of the OpenMoko community Re: Time for a community manifesto? And let us spread this good News :) Re: Free Your Phone
Salve Tim! On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Tim Newsom wrote: It might be interesting to build some capability into the help system where people can submit tips for applications, or even help information, which gets sent to some openmoko.org repository and packaged up like an rss feed. Yes this is *interesting* and I think much more could be used that the device itself will be the terminal/frontend to enable the users beeing active part of the OpenMoko/Neo1973 community. Granted, just like any other user supplied content, it will have to be monitored to prevent abuse, but it might be a good way to involve the community in building the help and tips and distributing an otherwise huge task to a number of willing and eager participants. :) Tools developed for the OpenMoko community could become used for private communities or business solutions like the software of the wikipedia is now used not only for the wikipedia. Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Hi Sean! On 21/01/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/21/07 4:57 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/01/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the OpenMoko Linux Distribution Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? We'll just call it OpenMoko. Okay cool :-) I think short simple branding will be key for us if we want main stream appeal. I agree Don't worry though, I have something special in the form of a user's manual that will give credit to GNU. Given the quality of the OP, I look forward to reading this! :-) Given that the free software nature of the phone is its primary feature, it seems strange not to acknowledge the GNU project, which is the whole reason there is free software at all... We will definitely acknowledge this. Awesome! Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! It will for sure! This just popped into my head one day while taking a shower. I think it's really started to stick. Plus somebody who knows _nothing_ about Free Software can still related to it. Yes yes yes :-) Best, -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Well, that wasn't so hard now was it. Maybe those who're so keen to make a big fuss and accuse people like Crossland of religious fervour could take a page out of Sean's book? Renaissance Man On 21 Jan 2007, at 2:28 pm, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/21/07 4:57 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/01/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the OpenMoko Linux Distribution Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? We'll just call it OpenMoko. I think short simple branding will be key for us if we want main stream appeal. Don't worry though, I have something special in the form of a user's manual that will give credit to GNU. Given that the free software nature of the phone is its primary feature, it seems strange not to acknowledge the GNU project, which is the whole reason there is free software at all... We will definitely acknowledge this. Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! It will for sure! This just popped into my head one day while taking a shower. I think it's really started to stick. Plus somebody who knows _nothing_ about Free Software can still related to it. Thanks for your comments! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
That might be the case if those who oppose the use of GNU actually had a rational case. The fact is they just don't; it's mostly just an emotional reaction from what I can see. Renaissance Man On 21 Jan 2007, at 8:09 pm, David Ford wrote: Your statement should read ... Maybe those who're so keen to push GNU/Averything on everyone and start flame wars could take a page out of Sean's book? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20/01/07, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! If freedom is a real goal then I agree. And I'm not so sure that is is. It seems this is more about the technical merit of being community developed, to anything else. Is this because the GPS daemon is proprietary? Other than that, Sean and the FIC team seem to value freedom very much, and for that I am grateful :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20/01/07, Richard Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Changing the system title to include GNU/Linux, would increase public awareness of GNU, but I don't see how it would directly improve the technology or how it would sell more Neo's If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like more Neos. These concept emanate mainly from the GNU Project. We're the ones who talk about freedom and community as something to stand firm for; the organizations that speak of Linux normally don't say this. The magazines about Linux are typically full of ads for non-free software; the companies that package Linux add non-free software to the system; other companies support Linux with non-free applications; the user groups for Linux typically invite salesman to present those applications. The main place people in our community are likely to come across the idea of freedom and determination is in the GNU Project. - http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html and thus it feels more like agenda-pushing. The whole Free Software concept is an agenda, and it needs pushing badly. Without that agenda being pushed in two decades ago, before a whole free software OS existed, there would probably be _zero_ free software today. With these upcoming DRM/Palladium stuff, unless this agenda is pushed, there will probably be no free software in two more decades. PS. Are there people who actually say GNU/Linux in conversation and/or correct themselves if they forget the GNU part? I don't forget ;-) And I tend to say 'guh-noo plus lin-ucks' out loud :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/01/07, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! If freedom is a real goal then I agree. And I'm not so sure that is is. It seems this is more about the technical merit of being community developed, to anything else. Is this because the GPS daemon is proprietary? Mostly, it is. Maybe there's a fairly reasonable explanation, there probably is, but it's misleading to say or hint that the phone software is entirely free. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! It will for sure! This just popped into my head one day while taking a shower. I think it's really started to stick. Plus somebody who knows _nothing_ about Free Software can still related to it. Some of my best ideas come in the shower (Future version wish: make the Neo waterproof). :-) (Actually, perhaps that's not so silly: a hardened OpenMoko for tough environments might be very profitable.) Sean, is there an official OpenMoko logo yet? Is the orange picture at the top of www.openmoko.com the official OpenMoko image? It would be nice to have a logo that echoed the tagline. (I'm getting dangerously close to a branding conversation here, aren't I)? Reason I ask is I'd like to propose an OpenMoko T-shirt, with the now-official tag-line. I'd buy and where that right away. If we don't have a logo yet, perhaps that artist who joined recently could help? Michael, wishing for Free Your Phone T-shirts and stickers ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 21:58 +0100, Milan Votava wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I sincerely doubt that the answer to that question is either of the two ... or at least either of the two in their current form. The term exploit, to me, connotes an unequal or unfair exchange. Where one person takes more than he/she gives. I don't think there's a single person on this list who isn't drooling for this product because it's something they've been wanting for some time now. And I also doubt people who volunteer their efforts don't get anything in return. Eventually, I hope to earn money from the apps I intend to develop for the Neo ... not by selling the app nor the phone, but by providing it as part of a solution to business and personal problems which my company caters to. Practically everything I develop will be released as open source, unless my client pays me not to. -- Richi Plana ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21 Jan 2007, at 9:01 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: I don't actually believe this, other than for the excruciatingly small minority of people who hang out on mailing lists such as this one. The overwhelming majority of people neither know nor care what the operating system on their cellphone is, nor is the idea of one cellphone supporting freedom and community more than another one going to be the least bit meaningful to them. Both my girlfriend and father are aware of Free Software and what it means. This is due to me coming across the FSF out of curiosity about GNU, and then passing that knowledge onto them. If people buy phones based on Linux, which could be a fine thing for open source developers, they'll buy them because they're _better phones_, and for no other reason--that's presupposing that they, in fact, are better, of course. But you're presupposing that people are incapable of treating Freedom as a factor when the rate a product or service. There's very little stopping people from judging the Freedom aspect of a product or service apart from awareness of it. But this is strictly a _political_ agenda, and I'm still unconvinced that this list is an appropriate place for you to be flogging it. Out of interest can you define your use of political agenda? Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/21/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does the end result differ from anything I or any on my side of the fence have suggested? Nothing changed so why bring it up in the first place? Both sides accuse the other of this fervour. Why slight one side of the fence? Reread the thread, you were the first person to accuse anyone of religious fervor. If you want to be listened to, don't be slighting. Your statement should read: Maybe those who're so keen to make a big fuss could take a page out of Sean's book? Otherwise, Maybe those who're so keen to push GNU/Averything on everyone and start flame wars could take a page out of Sean's book? Dave Crossland's polite request was followed by a snide comment and two others that ridiculed his request as silly. It's safe to say that those messages share much more of the blame for starting any flame war than his initial request. Have a nice day, hopefully this will be the last of this. Indeed, but I just had to chime in and point this stuff out. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Your Phone
Both my girlfriend and father are aware of Free Software and what it means. This is due to me coming across the FSF out of curiosity about GNU, and then passing that knowledge onto them. That's nice. I simply doubt that they'll be making cell phone purchasing decisions based on that knowledge. Runs free software doesn't appear on the checklist of features that the average person is looking for or cares about. That's unlikely to change. But you're presupposing that people are incapable of treating Freedom as a factor when the rate a product or service. There's very little stopping people from judging the Freedom aspect of a product or service apart from awareness of it. I never said they were incapable, just that they _don't_. If people factored freedom into their general buying decisions, Western nations wouldn't be running the kind of trade deficits with China that they currently do... Out of interest can you define your use of political agenda? In this instance, an agenda based on one party's apparent dissatisfaction with not getting the credit they assert they deserve, and which has nothing to do with software development or any piece of software's being more or less free. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
No more comments to the list on this. I've already covered your below response. -david Renaissance Man wrote: That might be the case if those who oppose the use of GNU actually had a rational case. The fact is they just don't; it's mostly just an emotional reaction from what I can see. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
I don't believe that one must always forgo open source toys to earn money. In my opinion, customer service is by far the most important element of making a lot of money. Make happy customers with whatever your product is and it's viral. Your product doesn't have to be the cure that saves us all from cancer. It just needs to be something we want or need. Customer service however is how companies live or die. :) From what I have seen since this project came about, customer service is a big element as is the product itself. I think Sean will make money and make us happy as well. -david Milan Votava wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[OT] aims ( was Re: Free Your Phone )
On Sunday 21 January 2007 13:58, Milan Votava wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... What makes you think that both of those aims cannot be satisfied at the same time? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21 Jan 2007, at 9:54 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: Both my girlfriend and father are aware of Free Software and what it means. This is due to me coming across the FSF out of curiosity about GNU, and then passing that knowledge onto them. That's nice. The point is these people are certainly not geeks, so it's certainly incorrect to assume that only geeks know about Free Software and the benefits of supporting it. Runs free software doesn't appear on the checklist of features that the average person is looking for or cares about. That's unlikely to change. Yes, very unlikely to change when people successfully oppose efforts to increase awareness of it through projects like OpenMoko. I never said they were incapable, just that they _don't_. If people factored freedom into their general buying decisions, Western nations wouldn't be running the kind of trade deficits with China that they currently do... I agree that market economics creates such externalities, but just because market economics has such defects doesn't mean that they can't be mitigated by agendas like that of the FSF. Buy Local campaigns, for instance, have been shown in many countries to mitigate problems like the one you mention. Out of interest can you define your use of political agenda? In this instance, an agenda based on one party's apparent dissatisfaction with not getting the credit they assert they deserve, and which has nothing to do with software development or any piece of software's being more or less free. Okay. Well I guess this is the fundamental difference between the way you and I look at this issue. You think the FSF and supporters are pushing an agenda simply to get more credit for their efforts. I, and others, on the other hand, think the FSF and supporters are pushing an agenda to promote Free Software. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20/01/07, Andreas Jellinghaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Credit whom credit is due. Either they accept that credit is givin to everyone, and that this is a long list, and that if people highlight some feature of their choice it is freedom of speach, or they don't. but the gnu way of placing themself before everone else is disgusting. I'd prefer if gnu was not given any special treatment. The GNU Project is the reason we have any Free Software in the first place. That it _was_ first, is why it comes first, why their contribution is so important. p.s. gnu also mentions on one cd they claim to have had the biggest contribution with about 28%. I doubt I can find more gnu code than kde code on my kubuntu. The KLOCs is a secondary concern, which points to the primary concerns: The system's origin, history, and purpose. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Please take this off the list :) You and I disagree about whether they are pushing their name more than pushing free software. You and I are not going to agree on this, nor will others. Free software existed before GNU, it will exist after GNU. To be honest, it was Linux that catapulted free software such as GNU software into the limelight. No more replies about this on the list please. This is for everyone on both sides of the fence including me. -david Renaissance Man wrote: On 21 Jan 2007, at 9:54 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: Both my girlfriend and father are aware of Free Software and what it means. This is due to me coming across the FSF out of curiosity about GNU, and then passing that knowledge onto them. That's nice. The point is these people are certainly not geeks, so it's certainly incorrect to assume that only geeks know about Free Software and the benefits of supporting it. Runs free software doesn't appear on the checklist of features that the average person is looking for or cares about. That's unlikely to change. Yes, very unlikely to change when people successfully oppose efforts to increase awareness of it through projects like OpenMoko. I never said they were incapable, just that they _don't_. If people factored freedom into their general buying decisions, Western nations wouldn't be running the kind of trade deficits with China that they currently do... I agree that market economics creates such externalities, but just because market economics has such defects doesn't mean that they can't be mitigated by agendas like that of the FSF. Buy Local campaigns, for instance, have been shown in many countries to mitigate problems like the one you mention. Out of interest can you define your use of political agenda? In this instance, an agenda based on one party's apparent dissatisfaction with not getting the credit they assert they deserve, and which has nothing to do with software development or any piece of software's being more or less free. Okay. Well I guess this is the fundamental difference between the way you and I look at this issue. You think the FSF and supporters are pushing an agenda simply to get more credit for their efforts. I, and others, on the other hand, think the FSF and supporters are pushing an agenda to promote Free Software. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21/01/07, Richard Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although I support the goals of the FSF, I hold progress ahead of my political philosophy. To value a political stance over practical progress does go counter to our general culture, which encourages us to dismiss any philosophy that differs from its own as 'impractical'. But the FSF's political philosophy is extremely practical: it is why we have the GNU/Linux operating system at all. Again, I really recommend reading http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html about this specifically, and http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html in general. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21/01/07, Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I never actually use the GNU/Linux identifier - but I can understand the logic and reasoning behind it, and it certainly doesn't bother me when other people use it. If you understand the reasoning, I'm curious why you don't use it..? :-) At any rate, it looks better written out, than how it sounds verbally. Verbally I say guh-noo plus lin-ucks, but GNU+Linux doesn't look at good when written out :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21/01/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: p.s. it's religious and for every one that feels GNU should be the sole title bearer, there is another that feels they should not. No one is advocating that GNU be the *sole* title bearer, although plenty of people are advocating that Linux be the sole title bearer. For the GNU Project to claim credit for the kernel would be unfair, just as for the Linux kernel project to claim credit for the operating system is also unfair. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21/01/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in the near future someone else will ask openmoko to prefix their name with GNU and it'll start all over again. I did not ask OpenMoKo to prefix their name with GNU. I apologies if that was not clear. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21/01/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both my girlfriend and father are aware of Free Software and what it means. This is due to me coming across the FSF out of curiosity about GNU, and then passing that knowledge onto them. That's nice. I simply doubt that they'll be making cell phone purchasing decisions based on that knowledge. Runs free software doesn't appear on the checklist of features that the average person is looking for or cares about. That's unlikely to change. With the recent surge in very restrictive proprietary software - DRM/Treacherous Computing, especially in HD-DVD and BluRay devices like the PS3 and Vista - I think that this is very likely to change. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21 Jan 2007, at 10:58 pm, David Ford wrote: Free software existed before GNU, it will exist after GNU. Yes, but will we still enjoy the freedom it was intended to bring? Or will it be a mix of free and unfree components barely usable without the unfree components that users will expect to find? It seems clear to me, having come to this list asking for WiFi and finding out freedom was an issue in this regard, that those driving this project are committed to Free Software and not just Open Source. And Sean's comments on the matter appear to have confirmed this. And that probably means OpenMoko will have at least three more customers (me, my mrs and my old man). (well that and the fact that Job's decision to leave out VoIP from his machine sent me on a hunt for alternatives) Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [OT] aims ( was Re: Free Your Phone )
On 21/01/07, Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 21 January 2007 13:58, Milan Votava wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... What makes you think that both of those aims cannot be satisfied at the same time? Yes, I really think that both aims can be aligned, and that OpenMoko is looking like a good example of just this :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Milan Votava writes: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... If I get my toys, I'm delighted to see FIC get rich. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/22/07 4:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! It will for sure! This just popped into my head one day while taking a shower. I think it's really started to stick. Plus somebody who knows _nothing_ about Free Software can still related to it. Some of my best ideas come in the shower (Future version wish: make the Neo waterproof). :-) (Actually, perhaps that's not so silly: a hardened OpenMoko for tough environments might be very profitable.) Hehe...waterproof phones would be really cool. It's just so expensive. Sean, is there an official OpenMoko logo yet? Is the orange picture at the top of www.openmoko.com the official OpenMoko image? It would be nice to have a logo that echoed the tagline. (I'm getting dangerously close to a branding conversation here, aren't I)? Yeah that's the official one. Reason I ask is I'd like to propose an OpenMoko T-shirt, with the now-official tag-line. I'd buy and where that right away. If we don't have a logo yet, perhaps that artist who joined recently could help? Michael, wishing for Free Your Phone T-shirts and stickers Coming soon... ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Jan 21, 2007, at 6:28 PM, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Hehe...waterproof phones would be really cool. It's just so expensive. Sort of on that same note, though, once the design becomes a little more solid, building some additional durability into the phone would be a nice thing. So many phones we get nowadays are expensive and break quickly. It would be nice if the phone could be disassembled using torx drivers, and if you could replace the more breakable parts. I don't think this is a practical suggestion for the developer phone, but sturdiness and maintainability really would be a good (and surprising) quality in a phone. If this phone becomes something that people buy and keep, then spending a little extra to make it last longer might be worthwhile. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20 Jan 2007, at 6:06 am, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: We will sell the Neo1973 direct from openmoko.com for US$350 plus shipping. Sales and orders will be worldwide. Does this mean it'll be shipping direct from openmoko.com with the correct power plug for each country? The 2nd generation OpenMoko device will also be introduced at this time [2007-09-11]. Fantastic, this is before the launch of the 1st gen. iPhone in Europe, Asia and Oceania. We have something special in the works, but again, you will help shape this device. Heh, you certainly know how to create anticipation Sean. Hope it includes WiFi! sorry had to get my plug in there. This will be the computer of the 21st century. There's another interesting reason why this will almost certainly be the case: if scientists are correct about global heating the energy efficiency of any electrical device that will be ubiquitous on a global scale is paramount. Such mobile devices are perfect in this sense. In fact, once photovoltaic cells are efficient enough it would be great to have them form the shell of the case of one of these devices. I quite like the wind-up technology used in the OLPC too. The Renaissance Man___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Time for a community manifesto? And let us spread this good News :) Re: Free Your Phone
Dear OpenMoko fellows! I think we share the same happiness, beeing delirious with joy, about Seans anouncement for the OpenMoko/Neo1973 project today :) And this not, because he announced the planed shipping dates for a new product - whis his surprising philosophic coloured mail he put into focus what 15 years ago nobody could imagine: The power of a world wide cooperation of creative people. You may ask me - did he? He spoke about ubiquitous computing and the roadmap for the OpenMoko/Neo1973 project. Beside that the work of Mark Weiser is still up to day that now the time of his predicted periode of ubiquitous computing starts http://www.ubiq.com/hypertext/weiser/UbiHome.html - Mark did very early critices how computing concepts (hard/software) limited the chance of ubiquitous computing. His criticism could be used 1:1 of todays (un)smart phones: http://www.ubiq.com/hypertext/weiser/VRvsUbi.gif http://www.ubiq.com/hypertext/weiser/PersonWorldDistinction4Up.gif I would go back in history much more than 15 or 24 years - consider the time where people made spearhead out of splintstones or bones - it wasn't important what you own, it was important which skills you have. And sharing and to better this skills was crucial for survival. Today it isn't a question of physical survival but cooperation and sharing skills is a very powerfull strategie and new communication tools enabled new ways of cooperation: usenet - linux wiki - wikipedia and now OpenMoko - ??? So what will bring us an device for mobil ubiquitous computing with GSM,GPRS,GPS,Bluetooth and the freedom to adapt this tool in a way that it is most usfull for our needs, demands and way we want to use it? Try to hit a spearhead out from arbitrary stone (un)smart phone - you will fail - OpenMoko/Neo1973 will be the material to hit a spearhead out of it. I saw a report that it needs years for a person to learn to make good spearheads: http://www.engen.de/petersfels/experiment.htm (sorry not the best link) So it is hard to learn and you need the right stone to work on. Our discussion about FPGA and the link to http://www.opencores.org/ gives an impression what power everybody can have with some general skills to build and rebuild tools for mobil computing on demand. Looking just on the hard/software specification of the Neo1973/OpenMoko will may make you think - this is not revolutionary - well, the flintstone itself could be used only for fire and tools - it hasn't the feature of coal - you can't burn it - flintstone isn't revolutionary Hey that's not the point what you get in the box for your bucks - it is the question what you can do with it and if you have the freedom to adapt this device to a tool that you like - not only to change the GUI skin or the plastic case... to change the core function, e.g. the way it support you to manage calls... But I'm not a software guru - why should I deside me to choose OpenMoko/Neo1973? For us on the OpenMoko community mailinglist it is obvious which power OpenMoko/Neo1973 has - that with a little general skill I will be able to benefit from the skills and the creativity of many others - like we are used to benefit from GNU/Linux or the Wikipedia. And to have a mobil device, as trustworthy enviroment with the power of GNU/Linux together with GSM/GPRS/GPS/Bluetooth is a great dream - but to have a worldwide cooperation with you, to develope and share solution for this device we all will carry with us is a more important point. OpenMoko stands today on more than 584.000 webpages, OpenMoko and Neo1973 on 92.600. :))) Seans anouncement today of the roadmap for the OpenMoko/Neo1973 is a good chance for us to promote this project - to spread his anouncement into the news (to magazins, papers, radios, newspages...) but also to mention it in IT-communities we are active - and of course tell our friends about it and to make OpenMoko much more populare! By this chance we can make one special point more populare as well: On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Also, at this time, the following community dedicated websites will be available: * http://openmoko.org/ -- for the actual development community * http://wiki.openmoko.org/ -- for an official wiki of the project * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/ -- for bug tracking * http://lists.openmoko.org/ -- for public mailing lists * http://planet.openmoko.org/ -- for an aggregated feed * http://projects.openmoko.org/ -- for user-contributed projects that OpenMoko/Neo1973 strategie is based on a very wellcome contribution of the users and hackers that get most of this device/plattform - contribution by people that they share there solution and know how! When I heard the anouncemnent of a free Linux phone Neo1973 I was interested - but when I saw Sean slides http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_20061107.pdf I was *realy* *instantly* convinced that this is a great, revolutionary
Re: Free Your Phone
Hi Sean! On 20/01/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the OpenMoko Linux Distribution Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? Given that the free software nature of the phone is its primary feature, it seems strange not to acknowledge the GNU project, which is the whole reason there is free software at all... Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20/01/07, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland schreef: Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? How much GNU software must be present to call it a GNU/linux distribution? Do I still need to call it gnu/linux if I use uclibc and busybox? Looking back at the annoucement, I see: * gcc 4.1.1 * binutils 2.17.50.0.5 * glibc 2.4 * glib 2.6.4 * gtk 2.6.10 So IMO this is clearly a GNU/Linux system. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/20/07 1:18 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/01/07, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland schreef: Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? How much GNU software must be present to call it a GNU/linux distribution? Do I still need to call it gnu/linux if I use uclibc and busybox? Looking back at the annoucement, I see: * gcc 4.1.1 * binutils 2.17.50.0.5 * glibc 2.4 * glib 2.6.4 * gtk 2.6.10 So IMO this is clearly a GNU/Linux system. More than it's a GTK/GNU/Linux system...? Or an X/GTK/GNU/Linux system...? Or a list your favorite twenty components/X/GTK/GNU/Linux system...? This is silly stuff, in my opinion. If the Free Software Foundation wants to call something GNU/Linux that badly, let 'em put together their own distribution and call it whatever they like. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/20/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! If freedom is a real goal then I agree. How much GNU software must be present to call it a GNU/linux distribution? Do I still need to call it gnu/linux if I use uclibc and busybox? The GNU/Linux FAQ [http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html] has your answer: What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU. If you're using uClibc and busybox, then likely GNU won't be competing to be principal developer.. How about calling it the Open Moko *Operating System*? -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20/01/07, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU. ... How about calling it the Open Moko *Operating System*? I don't think that's a good idea, because you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit, hmm? :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/20/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/20/07 1:18 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/01/07, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland schreef: Can the FIC marketting department call it 'the OpenMoko GNU/Linux Distribution'? How much GNU software must be present to call it a GNU/linux distribution? Do I still need to call it gnu/linux if I use uclibc and busybox? Looking back at the annoucement, I see: * gcc 4.1.1 * binutils 2.17.50.0.5 * glibc 2.4 * glib 2.6.4 * gtk 2.6.10 So IMO this is clearly a GNU/Linux system. More than it's a GTK/GNU/Linux system...? Or an X/GTK/GNU/Linux system...? Or a list your favorite twenty components/X/GTK/GNU/Linux system...? You obviously haven't read much of the GNU/Linux FAQ linked to above. (GTK - GIMP Toolkit - *GNU* Image Manipulation Program, BTW.) I don't think that's a good idea, because you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit, hmm? :-) Hehheh :) Well, I don't usually refer to GNU/Linux, but to the actual name of the distribution - the name of the operating system, e.g. Ubuntu, or to, when I can, whatever responsible package or project. Just because Ubuntu is based on GNU/Linux, it doesn't mean it needs to be called Ubuntu GNU/Linux, but when you do for some silly reason need to stick in what it's based on... go for Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Open Moko Operating System, based on GNU/Linux. We don't need to say it in the name (and I don't think the FSF think so either. They support utoto and gNewSense (but GNU's hidden in there I guess)). -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 20/01/07, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Open Moko Operating System, based on GNU/Linux. I think its safe to assume that the shorthand for the system will be plain 'OpenMoKo.' I was requesting that FIC's full title for the system replaces Linux with GNU/Linux for the good and clear reasons that we are familiar with, if it includes that name at all. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
That's called rhetorical questions. Those are GNU's opinions which are obviously and adamantly not shared. -I- think it's entirely silly. Xorg is as much not a component as GNU is. If gnusense is GNU/Linux based on Ubuntu, then why have they stripped Ubuntu from the name? That's entirely hypocritical. -david Dave Crossland wrote: The FAQ for your particular question is at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#many http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html explains why this is not silly, in depth. I'm sorry if I've come across as making a silly suggestion - I am being very earnest here. I am not suggesting to call the system by my favourite component. While the X Windowing System, GTK, and the Linux kernel are components, GNU is not a component. If the Free Software Foundation wants to call something GNU/Linux that badly, let 'em put together their own distribution and call it whatever they like. www.gnewsense.org is FSF sponsored, and removes all proprietary software from the Ubuntu GNU/Linux distribution. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/20/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenMoko FIC/GNU/Linus/Alan Cox/X11/Xorg/GTK/... Linux. Oh, and who is the principal for the plastic and silicon? How about the makers of the editors you use to create all this code and give credit to the companies that supplied the monitors, cpus, and keyboards? ...we're talking about the software distribution. I think its safe to assume that the shorthand for the system will be plain 'OpenMoKo.' That's not so bad, then. On 1/20/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Join us. Free Your Phone. I totally love this catch phrase! I hope that the FIC marketting uses it as the official tagline of all its openmoko devices! If freedom is a real goal then I agree. And I'm not so sure that is is. It seems this is more about the technical merit of being community developed, to anything else. If gnusense is GNU/Linux based on Ubuntu, then why have they stripped Ubuntu from the name? That's entirely hypocritical. gNewSense is a fork of Ubuntu. It is not GNU/Linux based on Ubuntu, Ubuntu is a GNU/Linux distribution anyhow, I don't think anybody will disagree with that. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 21 Jan 2007, at 12:25 am, Richard Franks wrote: I agree, and I agree that this would generally be A Good Thing. But I think it that it would make the Neo just a little bit harder to market - if a potential customer is asking themselves What does a GNU do? rather than reading the feature-list, then this is A Bad Thing. If someone's going to be asking themselves that, the same goes for Linux. OpenMoko is clearly what people are going to refer to it as, but, as Crossland points out, IF and whenever a *full title* is used, GNU/Linux seems more appropriate than Linux. I care about the technology first, the more popular the platform - the quicker Open Source technology progresses. My reasoning is that simple. Although I support the goals of the FSF, I hold progress ahead of my political philosophy. I don't follow your reasoning at all. How does referring to a piece of software as GNU/Linux instead Linux slow down the progress of it? Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:48, David Ford wrote: OpenMoko FIC/GNU/Linus/Alan Cox/X11/Xorg/GTK/... Linux. Oh, and who is the principal for the plastic and silicon? How about the makers of the editors you use to create all this code and give credit to the companies that supplied the monitors, cpus, and keyboards? Let's just call it EverythingAndTheKitchenSink/Linux, and be done with it. Your attempt towards exaggeration has possibly led you away from the point. You use X11/Linux and Xorg/Linux as an example, well let's see: those are both names of a specific piece of userland software. You don't see anyone suggesting Bash/Linux or Grep/Linux, however. GNU is not merely a single piece of software, you seem to not understand that. GNU is a system, a collection of extremely rudimentary/fundamental pieces of _critical_ software that are used to compile, bootstrap and enable an actual functioning operating system from which even higher layers of software can then be built and ran. ( the GNU system also happens to include some other higher-layer components, such as gtk, gnome, and so on ) Xorg, GTK, etc, etc, do _not_ provide the following components: linker compiler debugger parser generator posix library assembler shell auto-builder core utilities etc, etc, ... I'm sure I missed some other important ones. The purpose in the GNU/Linux qualifier, is to explicitly state that the system being referred to is an operating environment which is largely built-from/depends-on the GNU toolchain and includes the linux kernel. Any particular extra software configuration on top of that is identified through the specific name of the distribution, i.e. Debian, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, OpenMoko, etc, etc, Now, if GNU/Linux - under those certain constrained instances where it is a more accurate description - is still unnecessary in your mind, then fine - but at least realize that your counter-arguments have entirely missed the mark as far as relevance to the underlying point goes: you seem to indicate that you don't like the idea of GNU/Linux primarily because it brings too much undue focus upon one simple piece of software amongst many; however GNU, as I hope you can clearly see now, is not some trivial, random single piece of userland - quite the contrary it is the _very_means_ by which most linux-based os's are built. Personally, I never actually use the GNU/Linux identifier - but I can understand the logic and reasoning behind it, and it certainly doesn't bother me when other people use it. At any rate, it looks better written out, than how it sounds verbally. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
This is so tiring. I think we've all had to deal with this GNU/Linux vs. Linux war multiple times. How about those of you who care about it argue amongst yourselves instead of clogging our inboxes? WE'VE ALL HEARD IT BEFORE AND CAME TO OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS ALREADY. Why don't we start working constructively on what will make this platform better instead of bickering over religion? Thanks, G -- Fate is for those too weak to determine their own destiny Kamrad Hamid ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Well, religion or believe or whatever can create such a warfare is one important thing for sure - to be handled with care. I better skip those things here ;-) But it is a fact, that a running OSS box, leveraging the Linux kernel and the GNU tools and Xorg and .. well, it's a hard thing to name this box properly. So the FSF and many others came to the conclusion, or better compromise to name the 2 most important things, GNU + Linux, so - it is a GNU/Linux box, GNU first, because it came first, and actually .. where were we, if we didn't have the GNU toolchain ? Besides, if you don't like to discuss those things, why do you jump into this discussion in the first place ? This seems not very logical to me. And it is a fact as well, that such 'community' mailinglists shall follow the freedom of speech, as far as it is related to the project. This reminds me of the very honorable dude Theo de Raadt and the not so nice reasons for starting OpenBSD ; http://kerneltrap.org/node/6 As you can see, things matter to people, even this 'evangelism' thing ;-) Have a good one Cheers, Sven On Saturday 20 January 2007 22:22, Greg Tada wrote: This is so tiring. I think we've all had to deal with this GNU/Linux vs. Linux war multiple times. How about those of you who care about it argue amongst yourselves instead of clogging our inboxes? WE'VE ALL HEARD IT BEFORE AND CAME TO OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS ALREADY. Why don't we start working constructively on what will make this platform better instead of bickering over religion? Thanks, G ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Greg Tada writes: This is so tiring. I think we've all had to deal with this GNU/Linux vs. Linux war multiple times. How about those of you who care about it argue amongst yourselves instead of clogging our inboxes? WE'VE ALL HEARD IT BEFORE AND CAME TO OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS ALREADY. Why don't we start working constructively on what will make this platform better instead of bickering over religion? Amen, brother. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/21/07, Sven Gothel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This reminds me of the very honorable dude Theo de Raadt and the not so nice reasons for starting OpenBSD ; http://kerneltrap.org/node/6 As you can see, things matter to people, even this 'evangelism' thing ;-) Not to start another debate, but I've read through Theo's archived mail related to that fork, and it seems to me that he had perfectly valid reason to make the fork, and in the end he's gotten the last laugh, while NetBSD has fizzled. I also would agree that he's a very honourable dude :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
