Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
if only i had inverted triangle shaped fingers! On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:16 AM, Vibhav Sharma khoonir...@gmail.com wrote: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:51:50 +0200 Mathieu Rochette math...@gmail.com said: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:41 AM, neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com wrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? The article says that each triangular key has significantly more dead space around it than you’d find on a standard Qwerty layout. Consequently, users are more likely to press the correct key each time they tap. IMO, he is just trying to make easy money, he claims that his patented technology is s cool and ask apple to help him. meaning : paying to use this. I haven't try to look further, so I may be wrong, maybe triangle key really improve error rate. agreed - not on a touchscreen. on a physical kbd... maybe, as you are more likely to be able to feel were the key is as you have 2 edges (left and right) closer and more likey to be under 1 fingertip and feelable. but absolutely not a touchscreen. For Comparision sakes, illustrated a key-press on both. I really don't see any advantage ... or is it just me. -- Vibhav Sharma ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:56 PM, jeremy jozwikjerjoz.for...@gmail.com wrote: if only i had inverted triangle shaped fingers! I'd like to see your square shaped fingers :) r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Yup Ditto, Just waiting for transparent qwo for OM2009... 2009/6/14 Denis Johnson denis.john...@gmail.com On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Rask Ingemann Lambertsenr...@sygehus.dk wrote: They call it qwo[1] and I think it rules. It takes many hours to get used to it, but I think it is definitely worth it. +1 After trying many keyboards, qwo rocks. I am yet to try dasher but I'm pretty sure that the minimal screen real estate that qwo requires will win out. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Rask Ingemann Lambertsenr...@sygehus.dk wrote: They call it qwo[1] and I think it rules. It takes many hours to get used to it, but I think it is definitely worth it. +1 After trying many keyboards, qwo rocks. I am yet to try dasher but I'm pretty sure that the minimal screen real estate that qwo requires will win out. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Robin Paulson wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Not sure if that is needed. The patented triangular keyboard reduces mis-typing by having unresponsive areas around each key. The same can be achieved by having unresponsive area around rectangular keys too. Easily done by making said rectangular keys smaller, without moving them closer together. Of course, the keys are already very small, so this is problematic. They could get harder to hit. But triangles have the same problem, although they may look cooler to some. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 08:40:43AM -0700, neove...@freerunner wrote: It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. Is there even any attempt to make one? They call it qwo[1] and I think it rules. It takes many hours to get used to it, but I think it is definitely worth it. You can make it larger or smaller as necessary and because there are only nine zones, they can be relatively large without taking up too much space in total. All the characters needed for shell commands and such are there. I typed in about a third of the apt-get-file script I posted[2] with qwo while on the train. [1] http://www.opkg.org/package_84.html [2] https://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-May/047590.html -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:27:00PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Made by an idiot, article written by another. A British inventor has submitted a patent application for a wacky touchscreen keyboard design which inventor? patent? Idiots. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com said: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) is just wrong. it makes for fewer presses. you hit the deadspace much more often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit nothing. the kbd just makes no sense. making keys bigger is simply the way to make them more accurate to hit. if that isn't an option an you still do a kbd-style keyboard, then having some sort of guessing algorithm that guesses what you meant to hit is all you have left. doing a non qwerty style is the only other way you have a way out as you could have fewer keys, now easier to hit, but you may need to hit them multiple types (normal abc, def, ghi etc. number keypad style), and even here to avoid the multiple hits, you need again a guessing algorithm (t9). :) now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:41 AM, neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.comwrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? The article says that each triangular key has significantly more dead space around it than you’d find on a standard Qwerty layout. Consequently, users are more likely to press the correct key each time they tap. IMO, he is just trying to make easy money, he claims that his patented technology is s cool and ask apple to help him. meaning : paying to use this. I haven't try to look further, so I may be wrong, maybe triangle key really improve error rate. Mathieu Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:51:50 +0200 Mathieu Rochette math...@gmail.com said: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:41 AM, neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.comwrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? The article says that each triangular key has significantly more dead space around it than you’d find on a standard Qwerty layout. Consequently, users are more likely to press the correct key each time they tap. IMO, he is just trying to make easy money, he claims that his patented technology is s cool and ask apple to help him. meaning : paying to use this. I haven't try to look further, so I may be wrong, maybe triangle key really improve error rate. agreed - not on a touchscreen. on a physical kbd... maybe, as you are more likely to be able to feel were the key is as you have 2 edges (left and right) closer and more likey to be under 1 fingertip and feelable. but absolutely not a touchscreen. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com said: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) is just wrong. it makes for fewer presses. you hit the deadspace much more often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit nothing. What you're saying is logical. But I think the idea is that the dead space makes you want to hit the keys more accurately. So the smaller key teaches you how to hit more exactly. I don't know if it's true, but I would rather first try it out than say it's total bullshit. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:16:21 +0200 Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm said: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com said: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) is just wrong. it makes for fewer presses. you hit the deadspace much more often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit nothing. What you're saying is logical. But I think the idea is that the dead space makes you want to hit the keys more accurately. So the smaller key teaches you how to hit more exactly. I don't know if it's true, but I would rather first try it out than say it's total bullshit. u seriously doubt that. mis-pressing keys will also make you want to hi them more accurately too. it applies to both cases. thedifference is that if you are not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when its a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off that u pressed the wrong key. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ thedifference is that if you are not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when its a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off that u pressed the wrong key. exactly. but with this keyboard you can not accidently hit the G when you meant the F, unless you're very drunk. You can ofcourse hit dead space, but that's not so bad, you just tilt your finger until it hits. Ofcourse, dead space should really be dead, no action. To hit both the V and the B, you have to stick a very thick finger right in the middle of dead space. With square keys, you can hardly avoid it. There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? huh ? that would defeat the purpose. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit nothing. and equally more likely to hit the wrong one, since that space is filled up too. hitting no key is not so bad. hitting the wrong one is annoying. I believe in it.. oh .. patents ? .. skip .. one good idea lost for humanity. $2c, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and sort of hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
i'm still undecided... although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead of no key On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and sort of hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: u seriously doubt that. mis-pressing keys will also make you want to hi them more accurately too. it applies to both cases. thedifference is that if you are not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when its a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off that u pressed the wrong key. raster, is it possible to create triangular keys for your keyboard? how difficult would it be for someone to put this together, to test out what he's saying? if he can't get anyone interested, maybe he'd waive a patent suit in our case, in exchange for it being a demo for his technology? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: i'm still undecided... although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead of no key On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and sort of hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473 p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Marcel tan...@googlemail.com wrote: I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. with illume keyboard, if you use the dictionary mode, pressing another key is not that annoying. it is for other mode but the preview key (the key gone up when you press it) give you good feedback about which key your in and you can move your finger to correct if needed. unless his keyboard print the key on finger press (instead of finger up), you can not see if you hit a dead space or a key and so you can't move your finger to correct it, you have to make another try. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: i'm still undecided... although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead of no key On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and sort of hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473 p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang anyway. This hold-until-magnifier-pops-up thing isn't too helpful because it takes ages to type something up with that. Hitting a key twice because the first hit wasn't exact is faster. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 14:14:40 schrieb Mathieu Rochette: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Marcel tan...@googlemail.com wrote: I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. with illume keyboard, if you use the dictionary mode, pressing another key is not that annoying. it is for other mode but the preview key (the key gone up when you press it) give you good feedback about which key your in and you can move your finger to correct if needed. unless his keyboard print the key on finger press (instead of finger up), you can not see if you hit a dead space or a key and so you can't move your finger to correct it, you have to make another try. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: i'm still undecided... although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead of no key On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and sort of hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp301 6473 p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel tan...@googlemail.com wrote: But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang anyway. This hold-until-magnifier-pops-up thing isn't too helpful because it takes ages to type something up with that. Hitting a key twice because the first hit wasn't exact is faster.^ I wasn't talking about the big magnifier, just the small in top of the finger. let pi the probability you miss a key with illume keyboard, pt the probability you miss a key with triangle keyboard, ki the time to press a key with illume, kt the time to press a key with triangle, ei the time to cancel an error with illume, et the time to cancel an error with triangle. et = 0 and ei = ki the average time to type the correct key is: t(p, k, e) = k + Sum (i = [1, +inf], (k+e)*pi^i) ti = t(pi, ki, ei) tt = t(pt, kt, 0) et = 0 and ei = ki the remaining maths are left as an exercise for the reader (I'm at work now and I don't remember how to do that) :p -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 14:14:40 schrieb Mathieu Rochette: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Marcel tan...@googlemail.com wrote: I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. with illume keyboard, if you use the dictionary mode, pressing another key is not that annoying. it is for other mode but the preview key (the key gone up when you press it) give you good feedback about which key your in and you can move your finger to correct if needed. unless his keyboard print the key on finger press (instead of finger up), you can not see if you hit a dead space or a key and so you can't move your finger to correct it, you have to make another try. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: i'm still undecided... although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead of no key On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and sort of hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com: There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp301 6473 p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel tan...@googlemail.com said: I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 00:01:18 +1200 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com said: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: u seriously doubt that. mis-pressing keys will also make you want to hi them more accurately too. it applies to both cases. thedifference is that if you are not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when its a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off that u pressed the wrong key. raster, is it possible to create triangular keys for your keyboard? yes. just draw triangular buttons and have transparency where you dont want them hit (on the image), use the image as he hit area and add: precise_is_inside: 1; so the part (alone with scale, type, name etc.). this basically makes evas use the actual pixel alpha to determine if a point is inside the image or not, as opposed to just is bounding region (which is normal). nb - NEVER tested this before... how difficult would it be for someone to put this together, to test out what he's saying? if he can't get anyone interested, maybe he'd waive a patent suit in our case, in exchange for it being a demo for his technology? that's up to him, but, since i know it's patented now - i am not touching it. willfully violating a patent with knowledge is much nastier than accidentally violating one you dont know about. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 03:43:42PM +0200, Mathieu Rochette wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel tan...@googlemail.com wrote: But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang anyway. Just edit them, and add: slang N Where slang is the slang you want and N is the frequency (the higher, the most likely to show up in the list). The keyboard with a good dictionary is awesome... I hated it too, but with a (nearly) million portuguese words dict it is very rare indeed that I need to type character by character. My main problem is actually that sometimes it gets stuck calculating the word list for a bit longer. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
What about first building a decent keyboard with normal keys and then dream about triangular keys glory? Such a triangular keyboard uses lots of space, maybe twice the space of a normal keyboard. That's certainly not useful on the small freerunner screen which is also cramped by the casing frame. It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. Is there even any attempt to make one? rusolis wrote: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3019034.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:10:49PM +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? No, it's the general allergy to being sued for willingful patent infringement. I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. It is not at all impossible that if a patent is granted, any touchscreen keyboard may be infringing on it. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:10:49 +0200 Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm said: I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. i theorize because hat's what i've done for decades doing code, ui etc. i sit and think about how something will work months or years before i do it. that's how i figure out how to make something that could be fast in what it does - by theorizing on usage patterns, internal data and logic flow etc.etc. months or years before it ever actually works (and then smile as all the thinking paid off). Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. patents are an area which could literally wipe out my entire life's savings if taken to court, shown to willfully infringe. you need to check up on patent law and the sonsequences. if you willfully infringe (KNOW something is patented and then use it anyway), you don't have a leg to stand on in a court. maybe you have nothing to lose - i definitely do and won't touch something i KNOW is patented. better never tell me it's patented - then at least i have a leg to stand on. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:40:43 -0700 (PDT) neove...@freerunner spa...@ymail.com said: What about first building a decent keyboard with normal keys and then dream about triangular keys glory? Such a triangular keyboard uses lots of space, maybe twice the space of a normal keyboard. That's certainly not useful on the small freerunner screen which is also cramped by the casing frame. It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. Is there even any attempt to make one? well people will disagree - qtopia's predictive kbd and illume's do a damn good job given the tiny screen space. ask peolpe who actually use it (and if you dont use english - find a dict for your language). sure - it wont help with shell commands or coding, but in the end you have a TINY screen. i know i complain about my laptop kbd - and it's a 15 device. the kbd is a bit small for doing real code. i have a 10 sony viao x505 - thats pretty much impossible to do real code on. now a 2.8 screen - which you ALSO want to use for displaying stuff... let's get real. you will never have a god kbd for such things. at best u'll have one for pidgeon-pecking out some shortish sms's. be realistic. just because i open and runs linux doesnt mean it can be the be-all and do-all of your computing life. there's more to such devices than just software - like good hardware, good industrial design etc. etc. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
A bit off topic, but what about generating a dictionary out of: * Sent and received sms's. I want to dict that is a mix between, english, norwegian and spanish * add the $PATH to the dict, so it's at easy to write small commands in the terminal. -fredrik- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi all Another idea to use the triangles but without dead spaces (so compatible with small screen) What about alternate orientations for each key, a bit like this: /q\w/e\r/t\y/... This way you have more space in the top on w, r and y, and more space on the bottom for q, e and t. I mean more space compared to the squared keys like this : |q|w|e|r|t|y| Has anyone tried it yet ? I have the feeling it would ROCK ^ ^ Kimaidou t, so it's at easy to write small commands in the terminal. -fredrik- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wednesday 03 June 2009, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 03:43:42PM +0200, Mathieu Rochette wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel tan...@googlemail.com wrote: But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang anyway. Just edit them, and add: slang N Where slang is the slang you want and N is the frequency (the higher, the most likely to show up in the list). Or just type it accurately once and accept it, then it gets added to the user dictionary for future use. As you use it the frequency gets updated, so the dictionary matches adapt to the words you tend to use. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:39:08 -0300 fredrik normann fredrik.normann.j...@gmail.com said: A bit off topic, but what about generating a dictionary out of: * Sent and received sms's. I want to dict that is a mix between, english, norwegian and spanish * add the $PATH to the dict, so it's at easy to write small commands in the terminal. go for it. that is why i made the dic format so simple - i paid a big price in compute overhead to use that dict. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
I Wonder if you actually need to implement a visual triangle or if a triangular touch area would work just as well? And I wonder how tighly the patent is written around the concept of a triangle.. Perhaps shave off a tiny prtion of the tip of the triangle and you have a parallelogram... hmm just a tiny portion.. say a two pixel wide section hmmm Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:27:00PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Made by an idiot, article written by another. A British inventor has submitted a patent application for a wacky touchscreen keyboard design which inventor? patent? Idiots. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be more careful in where you tap your finger.. Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more failed keypresses..im touching put nothing is happening... Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com said: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) is just wrong. it makes for fewer presses. you hit the deadspace much more often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit nothing. the kbd just makes no sense. making keys bigger is simply the way to make them more accurate to hit. if that isn't an option an you still do a kbd-style keyboard, then having some sort of guessing algorithm that guesses what you meant to hit is all you have left. doing a non qwerty style is the only other way you have a way out as you could have fewer keys, now easier to hit, but you may need to hit them multiple types (normal abc, def, ghi etc. number keypad style), and even here to avoid the multiple hits, you need again a guessing algorithm (t9). :) now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. I did try the list of keyboards last year and couldnt live with them. But the current one - shipping with om2009 - is pretty good. Even with fingers. So, there's been progress.. What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? thanks, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
hummm... no reaction to my /q\w/e\r/t\y/ idea ;) ? 2009/6/3 pike pike-openm...@kw.nl Hi It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. I did try the list of keyboards last year and couldnt live with them. But the current one - shipping with om2009 - is pretty good. Even with fingers. So, there's been progress.. What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? thanks, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be more careful in where you tap your finger.. Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more failed keypresses..im touching put nothing is happening... If raster is right that dead space is bad, then maybe just use triangular images for keys? If you subconsciously try to hit the triangle instead of square maybe you'll miss less often. OT: how are software patents standing now in European Union? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
yes, you substitute one error for the other. the issue is the probablity of those errors and the time to correct.. no harm in testing the approach, if somebody has time on their hands Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel tan...@googlemail.com said: I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable theory, I think. Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:10:49 +0200 Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm said: I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. i theorize because hat's what i've done for decades doing code, ui etc. i sit and think about how something will work months or years before i do it. that's how i figure out how to make something that could be fast in what it does - by theorizing on usage patterns, internal data and logic flow etc.etc. months or years before it ever actually works (and then smile as all the thinking paid off). Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. patents are an area which could literally wipe out my entire life's savings if taken to court, shown to willfully infringe. you need to check up on patent law and the sonsequences. if you willfully infringe (KNOW something is patented and then use it anyway), you don't have a leg to stand on in a court. maybe you have nothing to lose - i definitely do and won't touch something i KNOW is patented. better never tell me it's patented - then at least i have a leg to stand on. yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents (company forced me to), wanna read them? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:13:12 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said: yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. oh indeed. the only way to go is plead ignorance. if it comes to court without a cease and desist you will very likely get off (with then just a cease and desist) unless they can prove you willfully infringed - i.e. - you knew about the patent beforehand or at any time up to and beyond actually shipping/distributing product. you couldn't sanely be successfully sued for infringing a patent you never knew about. but... if you did. woe betide ye! :) so as you say steve - a real life example there in a real commercial setting. its better to be utterly ignorant and hope for the best. it may be you infringe on patents and the holders just dont care, thus will not sue. :) hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents (company forced me to), wanna read them? NO! never! i shall poke my eyes out first and fill my ears with cement! :) /me heads back to his safe patent ignorance zone :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:08:51 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said: indeed. i believe its not worth bothering. so i am not going to invest any time into trying it (to try it i'd have to build it... and that will use time) as my theorising says to me it wont help. if someone else who thinks it really is the bees knees... then build it, try it, test it and prove it! get a non-biased 3rd party to go use the kbd to enter common input or a phone (emails, sms's, etc.) and then time over maybe 50 specific messages how long it takes to get a 100% accurate entry of it. of course make the test unbiased by swapping which kbd they use first t enter in each test (first test kbd a then b, in test 2, b then a etc.). if you really think this kbd (on a touchscreen) is the bees knees - prove it! :) before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable theory, I think. Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:43:29 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said: I Wonder if you actually need to implement a visual triangle or if a triangular touch area would work just as well? And I wonder how tighly the patent is written around the concept of a triangle.. Perhaps shave off a tiny prtion of the tip of the triangle and you have a parallelogram... hmm just a tiny portion.. say a two pixel wide section i wonder what a judge/jury would say to such technical bypassing? :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:05:12 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said: indeed. if there is a lot of deadspace where no hit happens its then even harder for a corrective algo + dict to work as often u will tap and nothing happens (it happens often enough on the gta02if you use a finger. using fingernails or stylus is better, but the ts isnt very sensitive) yes, you substitute one error for the other. the issue is the probablity of those errors and the time to correct.. no harm in testing the approach, if somebody has time on their hands Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel tan...@googlemail.com said: I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:58:57 +0200 Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm said: 2009/6/3 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be more careful in where you tap your finger.. Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more failed keypresses..im touching put nothing is happening... If raster is right that dead space is bad, then maybe just use triangular images for keys? If you subconsciously try to hit the triangle instead of square maybe you'll miss less often. OT: how are software patents standing now in European Union? somehow i dont think this works for a finger - the finger is so big compared to the keys (3-4x the diameter) i don't thin this works. with a stylus though i would agree, but when u have a stylus - u can be quite accurate and hit the key you want regardless of shape! :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:13:12 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said: yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. oh indeed. the only way to go is plead ignorance. if it comes to court without a cease and desist you will very likely get off (with then just a cease and desist) unless they can prove you willfully infringed - i.e. - you knew about the patent beforehand or at any time up to and beyond actually shipping/distributing product. you couldn't sanely be successfully sued for infringing a patent you never knew about. but... if you did. woe betide ye! :) so as you say steve - a real life example there in a real commercial setting. its better to be utterly ignorant and hope for the best. it may be you infringe on patents and the holders just dont care, thus will not sue. :) hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents (company forced me to), wanna read them? NO! never! i shall poke my eyes out first and fill my ears with cement! :) /me heads back to his safe patent ignorance zone :) haha.. your gunna go to some anonymous internet cafe and look it up now. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
yep. you have to vary a whole host of test conditions. Subjects: those with touch screen experience: those without Order of presentation: Size of subjects finger How they type..for me I've always struggled between being a thumb typer and and index finger typer.. neither works for me very well since I have big fingers, bad eyes, and shakes from drinking too much coffee on the accuracy and time one might find that certain content (say SMS) might do better with one format as opposed to another..who knows? Could waste a whole summer doing a test like that. Long ago raster I actually did test design for UIs in fighter aircraft. nasty business. fun if you get paid for it, but not how i'd spend my free time. So I aint volunteering. Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:08:51 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said: indeed. i believe its not worth bothering. so i am not going to invest any time into trying it (to try it i'd have to build it... and that will use time) as my theorising says to me it wont help. if someone else who thinks it really is the bees knees... then build it, try it, test it and prove it! get a non-biased 3rd party to go use the kbd to enter common input or a phone (emails, sms's, etc.) and then time over maybe 50 specific messages how long it takes to get a 100% accurate entry of it. of course make the test unbiased by swapping which kbd they use first t enter in each test (first test kbd a then b, in test 2, b then a etc.). if you really think this kbd (on a touchscreen) is the bees knees - prove it! :) before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable theory, I think. Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wednesday 03 June 2009, pike wrote: Hi It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. I did try the list of keyboards last year and couldnt live with them. But the current one - shipping with om2009 - is pretty good. Even with fingers. So, there's been progress.. What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? It's the Illume one. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi But the current one - shipping with om2009 - is pretty good. .. What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? It's the Illume one. It's Rasters ? Good job. It works. thanks, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? Looks interesting! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
