[computer-go] Re: Analysis mode for human use
First of all sorry for forgetting the title in the previous posting. As David Fotland pointed out to me, sgf is of course not suited for humans to read. See the following example, for the first ten moves of a game. copied from sgf B[pp]; W[qd]; B[cp]; W[fq]; B[dq]; W[jp]; B[mq]; W[kq]; B[hp]; W[hq]; ** translated to Ishi-go B 1 Q4 W 2 R16 B 3 C4 W 4 F3 B 5 D3 W 6 K4 B 7 N3 W 8 L3 B 9 H4 W 10 H3 *** modified Ishi-go 1. q4 2. r16 3. c4 4. f3 5. d3 6. k4 7. n3 8. l3 9. h4 10. h3 * Ishi-go is much better to read, but - at least for people from the west - my modified Ishi-go-format should be even better. (The repetitive B W are a bit annoying in Ishi-go, and small letters are better to read than capital ones.) To give you an impression about the size of the market in Germany. Let's assume that in principle a go program with nice analysis mode (and current strength) might be interesting for human players in the range 2k - 3d. The German rating list shows the following ranks: Rank-No rating 80 2301 143 2200 216 2100 342 2000 479 1900 611 1800 1800-1900 is about 2k 1900-2000 1k 2000-2100 1d 2100-2200 2d 2200-2300 3d These German ratings do not fit exactly with KGS ratings, but there is rather strong correlation. So, there should be a market of several hundred potential customers, alone in Germany, for a program with nice analysis mode. Ingo. -- Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate + Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] (no subject)
I like the idea very much. But the coding effort is mostly in the GUI so it depends whether gogui's (or other GUIS's) author will like the idea. It has great commercial/popularity potential. But it is not so important for research. Lukasz On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 07:35, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, during the last weekend I have tried (for the first time) to use commercial go programs to analyse some games played between human players (on KGS). The idea was to use the bots for blunderchecks. So, I was looking for positions where the evaluation (in win percentages) jumped or dropped between consecutive moves. *** Concrete Example *** Amongst others I looked at a game between bwilcox[3d] and harleqin [2d], played on April 20, 2009, starting time 5:31 [CEST]. You can download the sgf for instance from the KGS archive at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Harleqin (By the way, bwilcox might be Bruce Wilcox, one of the veterans in computer go.) Both programs in my analysis claimed that 77.f13 was a big error: * In Leela the score dropped from 50.5 to 41.4 . * In ManyFaces the score dropped from 50.0 to 45.8 . Instead of 77.f13, both programs proposed 77.d14, with the possible continuation 78.e14 79.d13 . I discussed these findings with Harleqin, and he agreed that 77.f13 was a move that brought him into problems. *** General Wish *** Unfortunately current, (commercial) go programs (including Leela and ManyFaces) do not have a user interface that allows for COMFORTABLE analysis of games. The user has to click lots of buttons when jumping back and forth in some sgf. My wish is to have something similar to that, what has become standard in computer chess programs in the mid 1990's: * on the left half of the screen the diagram of the board * on the right half a list (not only sgf, but also with move numbers included) * the program is computing in analysis (infinite) mode * when the user clicks (by mouse) on any move in the move list then the program jumps immediately to this position and starts analysing (of course this position is shown in the diagram) * of course the screen should all the time show (in fat font) what the value of komi in the game under investigation is. * Another big wish: the programs should allow for some k-best mode where not only the best but the k best moves are computed (k being some integer specified by the user). Ingo. -- Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate + Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 04:59, Jason House jason.james.ho...@gmail.com wrote: I always recommend cygwin. I'm a linux guy and can't live without all my little tools and simple package installation. You should be able to get the exact gcc libego was optimized for that way. I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? I use the digital mars d compiler and it's blazingly fast. All my d files can compile and link faster than gcc compiles one of libego's c++ files. I'm not knocking libego, just giving a relevent reference point. I'm using libego under the hood for playouts. the reason of slow libego compilation is conntected to speed of playouts. It has everything in one file optimized with O3. After compilation there are almost no functions calls. Lukasz Sent from my iPhone On Apr 20, 2009, at 9:18 PM, Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com wrote: I got Libego compiled to a Windows DLL using Visual Studio and was able to call it, but I was only getting around 5k pps on my Core2. So I wanted to try another compiler. Has anyone used the Digital Mars C++ compiler? Or is there another compiler I should try? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
mingw rules! I compiled libego with it and got a decent 32kpps / GHz ( native g++ was 44kpps / GHz) Lukasz 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com: I use mingw to produce cros platform executables. I can build executables for linux, win32 and win64, which for my chess program is a must since it's 64 bit. - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
2009/4/21 Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com: mingw rules! I compiled libego with it and got a decent 32kpps / GHz ( native g++ was 44kpps / GHz) I used wine to run resulting exe on linux:) Lukasz 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com: I use mingw to produce cros platform executables. I can build executables for linux, win32 and win64, which for my chess program is a must since it's 64 bit. - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] (no subject)
Yes, this is a powerful feature that all chess interfaces have. There is one issue with GTP that will have to be kludged around - there is no way to stop an engine from thinking that is provided naturally by gtp. GTP has the nice feature that you can pipe in commands from a file, but it's not an ideal protocol for a sophisticated interface. Therefore, it is impossible to build a workable interface for all programs without requiring some basic modification to the protocol. I believe the protocol should have a special mode for this, the ability to accept commands even while busy - the ability to communicate asynchronously which is required to build the more sophisticated interfaces. I don't want to open up a can of worms here - this has been discussed on this list before. But it's a necessary step that will have to be taken sooner or later and I would personally prefer it's hea - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: I like the idea very much. But the coding effort is mostly in the GUI so it depends whether gogui's (or other GUIS's) author will like the idea. It has great commercial/popularity potential. But it is not so important for research. Lukasz On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 07:35, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, during the last weekend I have tried (for the first time) to use commercial go programs to analyse some games played between human players (on KGS). The idea was to use the bots for blunderchecks. So, I was looking for positions where the evaluation (in win percentages) jumped or dropped between consecutive moves. *** Concrete Example *** Amongst others I looked at a game between bwilcox[3d] and harleqin [2d], played on April 20, 2009, starting time 5:31 [CEST]. You can download the sgf for instance from the KGS archive at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Harleqin (By the way, bwilcox might be Bruce Wilcox, one of the veterans in computer go.) Both programs in my analysis claimed that 77.f13 was a big error: * In Leela the score dropped from 50.5 to 41.4 . * In ManyFaces the score dropped from 50.0 to 45.8 . Instead of 77.f13, both programs proposed 77.d14, with the possible continuation 78.e14 79.d13 . I discussed these findings with Harleqin, and he agreed that 77.f13 was a move that brought him into problems. *** General Wish *** Unfortunately current, (commercial) go programs (including Leela and ManyFaces) do not have a user interface that allows for COMFORTABLE analysis of games. The user has to click lots of buttons when jumping back and forth in some sgf. My wish is to have something similar to that, what has become standard in computer chess programs in the mid 1990's: * on the left half of the screen the diagram of the board * on the right half a list (not only sgf, but also with move numbers included) * the program is computing in analysis (infinite) mode * when the user clicks (by mouse) on any move in the move list then the program jumps immediately to this position and starts analysing (of course this position is shown in the diagram) * of course the screen should all the time show (in fat font) what the value of komi in the game under investigation is. * Another big wish: the programs should allow for some k-best mode where not only the best but the k best moves are computed (k being some integer specified by the user). Ingo. -- Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate + Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] (no subject)
My email got cut off near the end.My final thought was that it would be preferable to stick with GTP, just a revised asynchronous version. - Don 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com Yes, this is a powerful feature that all chess interfaces have. There is one issue with GTP that will have to be kludged around - there is no way to stop an engine from thinking that is provided naturally by gtp. GTP has the nice feature that you can pipe in commands from a file, but it's not an ideal protocol for a sophisticated interface. Therefore, it is impossible to build a workable interface for all programs without requiring some basic modification to the protocol. I believe the protocol should have a special mode for this, the ability to accept commands even while busy - the ability to communicate asynchronously which is required to build the more sophisticated interfaces. I don't want to open up a can of worms here - this has been discussed on this list before. But it's a necessary step that will have to be taken sooner or later and I would personally prefer it's hea - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: I like the idea very much. But the coding effort is mostly in the GUI so it depends whether gogui's (or other GUIS's) author will like the idea. It has great commercial/popularity potential. But it is not so important for research. Lukasz On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 07:35, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, during the last weekend I have tried (for the first time) to use commercial go programs to analyse some games played between human players (on KGS). The idea was to use the bots for blunderchecks. So, I was looking for positions where the evaluation (in win percentages) jumped or dropped between consecutive moves. *** Concrete Example *** Amongst others I looked at a game between bwilcox[3d] and harleqin [2d], played on April 20, 2009, starting time 5:31 [CEST]. You can download the sgf for instance from the KGS archive at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Harleqin (By the way, bwilcox might be Bruce Wilcox, one of the veterans in computer go.) Both programs in my analysis claimed that 77.f13 was a big error: * In Leela the score dropped from 50.5 to 41.4 . * In ManyFaces the score dropped from 50.0 to 45.8 . Instead of 77.f13, both programs proposed 77.d14, with the possible continuation 78.e14 79.d13 . I discussed these findings with Harleqin, and he agreed that 77.f13 was a move that brought him into problems. *** General Wish *** Unfortunately current, (commercial) go programs (including Leela and ManyFaces) do not have a user interface that allows for COMFORTABLE analysis of games. The user has to click lots of buttons when jumping back and forth in some sgf. My wish is to have something similar to that, what has become standard in computer chess programs in the mid 1990's: * on the left half of the screen the diagram of the board * on the right half a list (not only sgf, but also with move numbers included) * the program is computing in analysis (infinite) mode * when the user clicks (by mouse) on any move in the move list then the program jumps immediately to this position and starts analysing (of course this position is shown in the diagram) * of course the screen should all the time show (in fat font) what the value of komi in the game under investigation is. * Another big wish: the programs should allow for some k-best mode where not only the best but the k best moves are computed (k being some integer specified by the user). Ingo. -- Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate + Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
Just to add my 2c for the performance freaks. I've noticed that code generated by g++ 4.3.x was about 40-45% faster non-optimized when compared to previous versions of g++ (native linux platform). When optimizing code (-O3), 4.3 generated code that was 20% faster. This is probably the more relevant number for those that optimize their code anyway. Don't know about you, but I was impressed by 20% gain. If you already use g++ 4.3, pardon my interruption. But if you don't, you will be pleasantly surprised once you upgrade to it. Adrian Łukasz Lew wrote: mingw rules! I compiled libego with it and got a decent 32kpps / GHz ( native g++ was 44kpps / GHz) Lukasz 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com: I use mingw to produce cros platform executables. I can build executables for linux, win32 and win64, which for my chess program is a must since it's 64 bit. - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
Funny story: I have worse performance with g++-4.3 (20% as well) I probably overoptimized for g++-4.2 or something :) FYI g++4.4 is about to be released. it is already in experimental debian repository Lukasz 2009/4/21 Adrian Grajdeanu adria...@cox.net: Just to add my 2c for the performance freaks. I've noticed that code generated by g++ 4.3.x was about 40-45% faster non-optimized when compared to previous versions of g++ (native linux platform). When optimizing code (-O3), 4.3 generated code that was 20% faster. This is probably the more relevant number for those that optimize their code anyway. Don't know about you, but I was impressed by 20% gain. If you already use g++ 4.3, pardon my interruption. But if you don't, you will be pleasantly surprised once you upgrade to it. Adrian Łukasz Lew wrote: mingw rules! I compiled libego with it and got a decent 32kpps / GHz ( native g++ was 44kpps / GHz) Lukasz 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com: I use mingw to produce cros platform executables. I can build executables for linux, win32 and win64, which for my chess program is a must since it's 64 bit. - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Rating Drift
Not using a new login after significant changes leads to some issue? with both rating schrmes. It helps you and everyone else. Pebbles learns from every game it plays. So I can't agree; drift is inherent. Do you mind sharing what pebbles does? UCT+RAVE? Any other enhancements? It is UCT+RAVE, but I am not sure that what I have implemented is the same as what others have. For example, I have never been clear on how RAVE differs from AMAF. I have done a lot of reading, but there are a lot of overlapping ideas and variations and alternatives. Not to mention tweaks and tunings. Aside from the learning mentioned above, the engine uses only methods that have been published in this mailing list or in Mogo papers. And then only a small subset of those, and I am not sure that I have always carried out the intent of the inventors. Brian ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Rating Drift
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, sheppar...@aol.com wrote: Pebbles learns from every game it plays. So I can't agree; drift is inherent. But since you had bugs in the earlier version, how do you know, without restarting it after bug-fixes how much of the drift is from the learning part and how much from the bug-fix? Even for a learning program it might be a good idea to change the name by adding a version number after bug-fixes or major improvements. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Rating Drift
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Jason House wrote: AMAF and RAVE are the same thing. The MoGo team pioneered use of AMAF but called it RAVE because of their paper's target audience. I always thought them to be the application of the same heuristic at a different time. AMAF is usually applied at the end of the search, while RAVE guides the search. But maybe that's just me :-) Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
2009/4/21 Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com Funny story: I have worse performance with g++-4.3 (20% as well) I probably overoptimized for g++-4.2 or something :) FYI g++4.4 is about to be released. it is already in experimental debian repository Lukasz 2009/4/21 Adrian Grajdeanu adria...@cox.net: Just to add my 2c for the performance freaks. I've noticed that code generated by g++ 4.3.x was about 40-45% faster non-optimized when compared to previous versions of g++ (native linux platform). When optimizing code (-O3), 4.3 generated code that was 20% faster. This is probably the more relevant number for those that optimize their code anyway. Don't know about you, but I was impressed by 20% gain. If you already use g++ 4.3, pardon my interruption. But if you don't, you will be pleasantly surprised once you upgrade to it. Adrian Łukasz Lew wrote: mingw rules! I compiled libego with it and got a decent 32kpps / GHz ( native g++ was 44kpps / GHz) Lukasz 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com: I use mingw to produce cros platform executables. I can build executables for linux, win32 and win64, which for my chess program is a must since it's 64 bit. - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Fedora 11 has MinGW-compiler with gcc 4.4. It's a pitty that not all the libraries are ported yet. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Beta_release_notes#Windows_cross_compiler_.28mingw32-.2A.29 -- With kind regards, Ben Lambrechts Fedora Ambassador Fedora always leads and never follows ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Reply to Lukasz and Don + Roadmap 2020
Topic is the question (how) to use (current) go programs for evaluating human go games. Lukasz wrote: I like the idea very much. But the coding effort is mostly in the GUI so it depends whether gogui's (or other GUIS's) author will like the idea. It has great commercial/popularity potential. But it is not so important for research. Accepting PROGRESS as the meta goal, we should not artificially distinguish between science/research and commerce/popularitiy. Best progress is achieved by a free combination of all forces. At least, this turned out to be true in computer chess. Don wrote: Yes, this is a powerful feature that all chess interfaces have. There is one issue with GTP that will have to be kludged around - there is no way to stop an engine from thinking that is provided naturally by gtp... I believe the protocol should have a special mode for this, the ability to accept commands even while busy - the ability to communicate asynchronously which is required to build the more sophisticated interfaces. ... But it's a necessary step that will have to be taken sooner or later and I would personally prefer it's hea My email got cut off near the end.My final thought was that it would be preferable to stick with GTP, just a revised asynchronous version. Seems very reasonable to me. *** I think the computer go community has good chances to achieve the following three goals before 2020. (A) Programs with stable amateur 6-dan level (that would mean ratings like 2,550 on EGF scale). (B) Programs are accepted as analysis tools by professional players. (C) Human playing style (also on pro level, also for games between humans) changes due to experiences made with programs. Explanations: * In chess, (B) with commercial programs happened on Chess World Championship level for the first time in 1990, in the match between Kasparov and Karpov. In those days the best commercial programs had ratings around 2350 (Mephisto Lyon on 68040 Motorola processor). * In correspondence chess, (B) happened on top level already around 1988 (for instance by a member of the East Germany Olympic team, which won the Gold medal in that competition). This help was revealed only much later. * It is likely that (B) will happen for some time only in secret mode before pro players confess from whom they get help. * (A) may happen before or after (B). * In chess, computers have shown that defense has in general much more resources than humans believed. * (C) does not necessarily mean that at the same time computers will be stronger than humans. Example: During the Chess World Championship in year 2000, when Kasparov lost to Kramnik, Kramnik used an opening system called Berlin wall. By intense computer help he had convinced himself that this very passive opening is sufficient to keep a draw balance. Commercial chess programs turned out to be better than the best humans only around 2006. Ingo. -- Neu: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate + Telefonanschluss für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-surfflat/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Reply to Lukasz and Don + Roadmap 2020
Is it reasonable to expect pro players to use 6-dan programs as a tool for analysis? The pro players are markedly better - at a rough guess, a pro player could give a 6 dan amateur human or program a 3 stone handicap. On the other end of the scale, beginning players and mid kyu players could indeed make good use of an analysis mode by a program which is better than themselves. Lastly, an analysis mode would be helpful to developers, methinks. After winning a game, I like to back up a few moves and find out when the program realized that it was behind. This often happens several moves after the fatal blow has already been struck. I know the feeling too well, when stronger players deftly skewer my group and I only discover the problem five moves later. What do they know that I don't? What do they know that the program doesn't? We have a saying, you learn the most from reviewing games which you have lost. An analysis mode can help developers to discover when their pride and joy first begins to miss the target. Lately, I have been playing quite a bit with a commercially available program. An almost-ladder which has an extra liberty will apparently be evaluated the same as a true ladder, and the program can be tricked into trying to capture my ladder-like position. This sort of predictable flaw might provide a clue to improve the next version. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us. - Leo Tolstoy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Reply to Lukasz and Don + Roadmap 2020
Mention the program so that the author can either refute your claim or fix the bug. terry mcintyre wrote: Is it reasonable to expect pro players to use 6-dan programs as a tool for analysis? The pro players are markedly better - at a rough guess, a pro player could give a 6 dan amateur human or program a 3 stone handicap. On the other end of the scale, beginning players and mid kyu players could indeed make good use of an analysis mode by a program which is better than themselves. Lastly, an analysis mode would be helpful to developers, methinks. After winning a game, I like to back up a few moves and find out when the program realized that it was behind. This often happens several moves after the fatal blow has already been struck. I know the feeling too well, when stronger players deftly skewer my group and I only discover the problem five moves later. What do they know that I don't? What do they know that the program doesn't? We have a saying, you learn the most from reviewing games which you have lost. An analysis mode can help developers to discover when their pride and joy first begins to miss the target. Lately, I have been playing quite a bit with a commercially available program. An almost-ladder which has an extra liberty will apparently be evaluated the same as a true ladder, and the program can be tricked into trying to capture my ladder-like position. This sort of predictable flaw might provide a clue to improve the next version. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us. - Leo Tolstoy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Digital Mars
Ok, I have Mingw installed now. That sounds like the way to go. But I still don't know how to compile it :/ According to the SConstruct file, I should be doing something like this to build, but it complains: C:\Libego g++ /Fobuild\ego\dbg\ego.obj /c ego\ego.cpp -DDEBUG -ggdb3 -Wall -Wextra -Wswitch-enum -fno-inline /nologo /Iego g++: /Fobuild\ego\dbg\ego.obj: No such file or directory g++: /c: No such file or directory g++: /nologo: No such file or directory g++: /Iego: No such file or directory In file included from ego\ego.h:27, from ego\ego.cpp:47: ego\gtp.h:73: warning: `class Gtp' has virtual functions but non-virtual destructor In file included from ego\ego.cpp:54: ego\player.cpp: In constructor `Player::Player()': ego\player.cpp:27: warning: converting of negative value `-0x1' to `uint' In file included from ego\ego.cpp:55: ego\color.cpp: In constructor `Color::Color()': ego\color.cpp:27: warning: converting of negative value `-0x1' to `uint' I also tried the build command for the optimized version: C:\Libego g++ /Fobuild\ego\opt\ego.obj /c ego\ego.cpp -DDEBUG -ggdb3 -Wall -Wextra -Wswitch-enum -O3 -march=native -fomit-frame-pointer -ffast-math -frename-registers /nologo /Iego g++: /Fobuild\ego\opt\ego.obj: No such file or directory g++: /c: No such file or directory g++: /nologo: No such file or directory g++: /Iego: No such file or directory ego\ego.cpp:1: error: bad value (native) for -march= switch ego\ego.cpp:1: error: bad value (native) for -mtune= switch Sorry for my ignorance. Łukasz Lew wrote: 2009/4/21 Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com: mingw rules! I compiled libego with it and got a decent 32kpps / GHz ( native g++ was 44kpps / GHz) I used wine to run resulting exe on linux:) Lukasz 2009/4/21 Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com: I use mingw to produce cros platform executables. I can build executables for linux, win32 and win64, which for my chess program is a must since it's 64 bit. - Don On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Łukasz Lew lukasz@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:23, elife elife2...@gmail.com wrote: I forgot about cygwin indeed. It is a good idea. But can you ran the binary on a system without cygwin? We can run the binary on a system without cygwin if we provide cygwin1.dll. That is great. Another good idea is mingw. BTW I would like to recommend stackoverflow.com for programming questions. I asked this question there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/771756/what-is-the-difference-between-cygwin-and-mingw and got few good answers within a minute. Lukasz ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
