[Computer-go] Sensei

[P Shotwell]

Hello all,
I think we are forgetting one thing, that is, for a long time there was one
person who played only with White for hundreds of years.. AlphaGo could
play as thus. Also, in the old days, there was no komi and he went second.
No komi... Also, I once wrote a paper on komi entitled "Komi:Fiction or
Science Fiction?" which outlined how playing styles were altered and the
game was distorted after its introduction in the 1920s. The time limits in
the present match were also ridiculous, besides. New combinations appeared
in the middle game that no one could figure out but in time, they might
have.
Best,
Peter Shotwell.
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Robert Jasiek]

On 12.03.2016 22:03, Thomas Wolf wrote:

We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at
any stage of the game.


We have my theory according to my books for assessing the territorial 
and the dynamic aspects (development directions, neutral stones, 
statuses (incl. those of potential invasion groups), options, aji, 
invasions, reductions, (local) potential, influence, thickness, fights) 
of every position. The theory does not provide a single number (such as 
a one-dimensional probability) but judgement need not be one-dimensional 
and can depend on reading to assess particular aspects, such as a status.



The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.


Altering komi is much better than altering handicap because komi can be 
adjusted in finer steps and does not artificially restrict strategy a lot.


--
robert jasiek
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Petr Baudis]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:33:55AM +, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira wrote:
> The single machine version and the 2000 machine version is apparently a
> difference in 150 ELO, so maybe a 32 core instance in Amazon would be
> close enough, costing about 1200$ a month. Maybe it's doable, or for a
> Tokyo U. or BGA or AGA to set up something like this with Google permission.

It would be great if Google was willing to do this, but I'm not sure
this is realistic at all, as it might be all built around internal
Google frameworks and keeping it running at Google would mean someone
has to take care of it.  So I suspect the Go world has to be a little
more patient until Deep Zen, Aya, oakfoam, possibly
https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/AlphaGo and others catch up.  Save the
money for the openly available reinforcement learning iterations!

Just to clarify, 4xGPU, 32xCPU instance is $1800/month, while AlphaGo
single machine version uses 8xGPU, 48xCPU (and not sure what GPU
generation).  So that's another computation power halving.

-- 
Petr Baudis
If you have good ideas, good data and fast computers,
you can do almost anything. -- Geoffrey Hinton
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira]

The single machine version and the 2000 machine version is apparently a
difference in 150 ELO, so maybe a 32 core instance in Amazon would be
close enough, costing about 1200$ a month. Maybe it's doable, or for a
Tokyo U. or BGA or AGA to set up something like this with Google permission.

On 13/03/2016 00:24, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> This would be many thousands of dollars per day. A single game would be
> more than a thousand dollars in total costs.
> I do not think a kickstarter project or so would be successful, as the go
> community is simply not *that* big...
> 
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
> wrote:
> 
>> It does seem unlikely for DeepMind not to move on to "bigger" things,
>> but maybe the Go community can make some kind of fundraiser to keep an
>> instance of AlphaGo playing 24/7? I think there are some websites for
>> this kind of thing. Someone would be in charge of scheduling time for it
>> to play pros, other programs, and maybe play online on breaks. Just an
>> idea, oh Google overlords that watch all communications.
>>
>> Gonçalo
>>
>> On 13/03/2016 00:06, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>>> Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to the
>>> people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it will
>>> have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
>>> hair-raising.
>>> And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
>>> victory.
>>>
>>> It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to
>> see
>>> it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
>>>


 On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:

 And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It
>> remains
> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of
>> this
> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
>

 The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
 different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
 with.

 For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
 that
 he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...



> Lukas
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda 
> wrote:
>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf 
> wrote:
> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
> boost to KGS!
>
>   For sure.
>
> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>
> Clark
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Jim O'Flaherty]

I'd expect this achievement by AlphaGo is very similar to when the first
human ran a 4 minute mile. No one had done it prior. However, right after
Roger Bannister did it, suddenly there were people all over the planet
doing it. Roger Bannister essentially made the possibility real, and then
the psychology changed and lots of others made it over the hurdle. AlphaGo
turned the possibility of an AI becoming a 9d into reality.

AlphaGo may have made it to 9d first. However, I expect we will now begin
seeing lots of different successful attempts to accomplish the same thing,
and relatively soon, too. We've already seen several different comments on
this email list of people working furiously to make the same leaps the
AlphaGo team have described creating. The risk on these investments has
been substantially reduced by AlphaGo's unambiguous success. If the chess
world is any sort of guide to how Go AI is going to continue to develop,
then we will see plenty of progress over the next 36 months. I wouldn't be
surprised to hear the Facebook team working on their AI ends up coming in
second to the +9d AI club.


On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Igor Polyakov 
wrote:

> At this point I don't doubt that the single machine version is
> professional strength which is enough to be used as a tool to analyze
> games...
>
>
> On 2016-03-12 16:24, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>
> This would be many thousands of dollars per day. A single game would be
> more than a thousand dollars in total costs.
> I do not think a kickstarter project or so would be successful, as the go
> community is simply not *that* big...
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira < 
> go...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>> It does seem unlikely for DeepMind not to move on to "bigger" things,
>> but maybe the Go community can make some kind of fundraiser to keep an
>> instance of AlphaGo playing 24/7? I think there are some websites for
>> this kind of thing. Someone would be in charge of scheduling time for it
>> to play pros, other programs, and maybe play online on breaks. Just an
>> idea, oh Google overlords that watch all communications.
>>
>> Gonçalo
>>
>> On 13/03/2016 00:06, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>> > Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to
>> the
>> > people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it
>> will
>> > have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
>> > hair-raising.
>> > And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
>> > victory.
>> >
>> > It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to
>> see
>> > it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...
>> >
>> > On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf < 
>> tw...@brocku.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>> >>
>> >> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It
>> remains
>> >>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
>> >>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of
>> this
>> >>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
>> >> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
>> >> with.
>> >>
>> >> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
>> >> that
>> >> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Lukas
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf 
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
>> >>> boost to KGS!
>> >>>
>> >>>   For sure.
>> >>>
>> >>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>> >>>
>> >>> Clark
>> >>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Igor Polyakov]

At this point I don't doubt that the single machine version is 
professional strength which is enough to be used as a tool to analyze 
games...


On 2016-03-12 16:24, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
This would be many thousands of dollars per day. A single game would 
be more than a thousand dollars in total costs.
I do not think a kickstarter project or so would be successful, as the 
go community is simply not *that* big...


On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
mailto:go...@sapo.pt>> wrote:


It does seem unlikely for DeepMind not to move on to "bigger" things,
but maybe the Go community can make some kind of fundraiser to keep an
instance of AlphaGo playing 24/7? I think there are some websites for
this kind of thing. Someone would be in charge of scheduling time
for it
to play pros, other programs, and maybe play online on breaks. Just an
idea, oh Google overlords that watch all communications.

Gonçalo

On 13/03/2016 00:06, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo,
and to the
> people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but
still, it will
> have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone
would be
> hair-raising.
> And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over,
with this
> victory.
>
> It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would
like to see
> it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf mailto:tw...@brocku.ca>> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>>
>> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous.
It remains
>>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
>>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The
costs of this
>>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
>>>
>>
>> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players
with very
>> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in
contact
>> with.
>>
>> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3
reviews
>> that
>> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
>>
>>
>>
>>> Lukas
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda
mailto:cbwie...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf
mailto:tw...@brocku.ca>>
>>> wrote:
>>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be
such a
>>> boost to KGS!
>>>
>>>   For sure.
>>>
>>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>>>
>>> Clark
>>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

This would be many thousands of dollars per day. A single game would be
more than a thousand dollars in total costs.
I do not think a kickstarter project or so would be successful, as the go
community is simply not *that* big...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
wrote:

> It does seem unlikely for DeepMind not to move on to "bigger" things,
> but maybe the Go community can make some kind of fundraiser to keep an
> instance of AlphaGo playing 24/7? I think there are some websites for
> this kind of thing. Someone would be in charge of scheduling time for it
> to play pros, other programs, and maybe play online on breaks. Just an
> idea, oh Google overlords that watch all communications.
>
> Gonçalo
>
> On 13/03/2016 00:06, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> > Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to the
> > people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it will
> > have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
> > hair-raising.
> > And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
> > victory.
> >
> > It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to
> see
> > it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> >>
> >> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It
> remains
> >>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
> >>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of
> this
> >>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
> >>>
> >>
> >> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
> >> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
> >> with.
> >>
> >> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
> >> that
> >> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Lukas
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
> >>> boost to KGS!
> >>>
> >>>   For sure.
> >>>
> >>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
> >>>
> >>> Clark
> >>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira]

It does seem unlikely for DeepMind not to move on to "bigger" things,
but maybe the Go community can make some kind of fundraiser to keep an
instance of AlphaGo playing 24/7? I think there are some websites for
this kind of thing. Someone would be in charge of scheduling time for it
to play pros, other programs, and maybe play online on breaks. Just an
idea, oh Google overlords that watch all communications.

Gonçalo

On 13/03/2016 00:06, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to the
> people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it will
> have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
> hair-raising.
> And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
> victory.
> 
> It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to see
> it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...
> 
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>>
>> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It remains
>>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
>>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of this
>>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
>>>
>>
>> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
>> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
>> with.
>>
>> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
>> that
>> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
>>
>>
>>
>>> Lukas
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda 
>>> wrote:
>>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf 
>>> wrote:
>>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
>>> boost to KGS!
>>>
>>>   For sure.
>>>
>>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>>>
>>> Clark
>>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to the
people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it will
have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
hair-raising.
And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
victory.

It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to see
it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>
> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It remains
>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of this
>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
>>
>
> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
> with.
>
> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
> that
> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
>
>
>
>> Lukas
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda 
>> wrote:
>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf 
>> wrote:
>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
>> boost to KGS!
>>
>>   For sure.
>>
>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>>
>> Clark
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Thomas Wolf]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:


And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It remains to be 
seen whether the hardware and the people
maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of this are 
not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?


The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact with.

For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews that
he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...



Lukas

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda  wrote:
  On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a boost to 
KGS!

  For sure.

The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.

Clark 

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It remains
to be seen whether the hardware and the people maintaining it would be
available for a longer period. The costs of this are not to be
underestimated. Who would pay it?

Lukas

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda 
wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
>
>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a boost to KGS!
>>
>> For sure.
>
> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>
> Clark
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Clark B. Wierda]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:

> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a boost to KGS!
>
> For sure.

The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.

Clark
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Thomas Wolf]

Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a boost to KGS!

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Brian Sheppard wrote:



Play on KGS. Pros can be anonymous, and test themselves and AlphaGo at the same 
time. :-)

 

From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Jim 
O'Flaherty
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 4:56 PM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

 

I think you're correct, Thomas. The challenge is going to be getting ANY 
professional to be the one who
"takes handicap stones" for the first time in years. The possible "shame" of 
doing so is what will make
it messy.

 

Once someone does take that step, though, I think it is only a matter of time 
before the rating of
humans will be made a subordinate rating relative to the "objective" rating of 
the AIs, AlphaGo just
being the first. And that has its own psychological challenges as the Go world 
has many decades of
handling ELOs and rankings for humans. So, I don't think change in this area is 
going to be welcomed
anytime soon.

 

 

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:

  Chris,

  Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list
  (and my last email today) :

  We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at 
any
  stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory 
does
  only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least 
one
  player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned 
already).

  But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty 
meaningless
  and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and 
adds
  that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.

  Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves 
are
  no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best 
move
  and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on 
selfplay
  not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages 
worked
  out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at
  least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play 
out
  the sequences.

  The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
  stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.

  Regards,
  Thomas



  On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:


It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
compared to top humans.

Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol 
lost, and
that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear 
reason, tells
me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, 
maybe 2+
stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.

I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against 
AlphaGo
though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will 
find out.

On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf"  wrote:
      A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
      AlphaGo and
      strong players:

      Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
      stone handcap in the
      next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
      least once. This
      way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength 
over
      a whole game
      which we are all too curious to see.

      Thomas

      On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:

            Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
            Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
            Aja

            On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
             wrote:
                  It was exhilerating to witness history being
            made! Awesome!

            On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
             wrote:

                  Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!

                   

                  From: Computer-go
            [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
            Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
                  Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
                  To: computer-go@computer-go.org
                  Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to
            AlphaGo

             

            Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well w

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

It makes me think that is a very good idea that they did not select a
Japanese professional to play AlphaGo, They tend to be very passionate
about shame (even though there is of course no shame in losing against
AlphaGo) and it might have been... messy...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Jim O'Flaherty  wrote:

> I think you're correct, Thomas. The challenge is going to be getting ANY
> professional to be the one who "takes handicap stones" for the first time
> in years. The possible "shame" of doing so is what will make it messy.
>
> Once someone does take that step, though, I think it is only a matter of
> time before the rating of humans will be made a subordinate rating relative
> to the "objective" rating of the AIs, AlphaGo just being the first. And
> that has its own psychological challenges as the Go world has many decades
> of handling ELOs and rankings for humans. So, I don't think change in this
> area is going to be welcomed anytime soon.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list
>> (and my last email today) :
>>
>> We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at
>> any
>> stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory
>> does
>> only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least
>> one
>> player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned
>> already).
>>
>> But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty
>> meaningless
>> and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and
>> adds
>> that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.
>>
>> Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves
>> are
>> no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best
>> move
>> and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on
>> selfplay
>> not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages
>> worked
>> out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at
>> least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play
>> out
>> the sequences.
>>
>> The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
>> stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
>>> compared to top humans.
>>>
>>> Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, and
>>> that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear reason,
>>> tells
>>> me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, maybe
>>> 2+
>>> stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against AlphaGo
>>> though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will find
>>> out.
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf"  wrote:
>>>   A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
>>>   AlphaGo and
>>>   strong players:
>>>
>>>   Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
>>>   stone handcap in the
>>>   next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
>>>   least once. This
>>>   way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over
>>>   a whole game
>>>   which we are all too curious to see.
>>>
>>>   Thomas
>>>
>>>   On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
>>> Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
>>> Aja
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
>>>  wrote:
>>>   It was exhilerating to witness history being
>>> made! Awesome!
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>   Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   From: Computer-go
>>> [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
>>>   Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>>>   To: computer-go@computer-go.org
>>>   Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to
>>> AlphaGo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>>>
>>> Lukas
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Computer-go mailing list
>>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Computer-go mailing list
>>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>>> http://computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Brian Sheppard]

Play on KGS. Pros can be anonymous, and test themselves and AlphaGo at the same 
time. :-)

 

From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Jim 
O'Flaherty
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 4:56 PM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

 

I think you're correct, Thomas. The challenge is going to be getting ANY 
professional to be the one who "takes handicap stones" for the first time in 
years. The possible "shame" of doing so is what will make it messy.

 

Once someone does take that step, though, I think it is only a matter of time 
before the rating of humans will be made a subordinate rating relative to the 
"objective" rating of the AIs, AlphaGo just being the first. And that has its 
own psychological challenges as the Go world has many decades of handling ELOs 
and rankings for humans. So, I don't think change in this area is going to be 
welcomed anytime soon.

 

 

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Thomas Wolf mailto:tw...@brocku.ca> > wrote:

Chris,

Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list
(and my last email today) :

We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at any
stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory does
only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least one
player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned already).

But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty meaningless
and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and adds
that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.

Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves are
no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best move
and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on selfplay
not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages worked
out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at
least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play out
the sequences.

The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.

Regards,
Thomas



On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:


It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
compared to top humans.

Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, and
that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear reason, tells
me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, maybe 2+
stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.

I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against AlphaGo
though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will find out.

On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf" mailto:tw...@brocku.ca> > wrote:
  A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
  AlphaGo and
  strong players:

  Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
  stone handcap in the
  next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
  least once. This
  way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over
  a whole game
  which we are all too curious to see.

  Thomas

  On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:

Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
Aja

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
mailto:jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> > 
wrote:
  It was exhilerating to witness history being
made! Awesome!

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
mailto:fotl...@smart-games.com> > wrote:

  Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!

   

  From: Computer-go
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org 
 ] On
Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
  Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
  To: computer-go@computer-go.org 
 
  Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to
AlphaGo

 

Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

Lukas


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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Jim O'Flaherty]

I think you're correct, Thomas. The challenge is going to be getting ANY
professional to be the one who "takes handicap stones" for the first time
in years. The possible "shame" of doing so is what will make it messy.

Once someone does take that step, though, I think it is only a matter of
time before the rating of humans will be made a subordinate rating relative
to the "objective" rating of the AIs, AlphaGo just being the first. And
that has its own psychological challenges as the Go world has many decades
of handling ELOs and rankings for humans. So, I don't think change in this
area is going to be welcomed anytime soon.


On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list
> (and my last email today) :
>
> We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at
> any
> stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory does
> only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least
> one
> player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned already).
>
> But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty
> meaningless
> and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and
> adds
> that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.
>
> Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves
> are
> no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best
> move
> and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on
> selfplay
> not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages
> worked
> out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at
> least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play out
> the sequences.
>
> The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
> stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:
>
>
>> It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
>> compared to top humans.
>>
>> Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, and
>> that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear reason, tells
>> me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, maybe
>> 2+
>> stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.
>>
>> I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against AlphaGo
>> though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will find
>> out.
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf"  wrote:
>>   A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
>>   AlphaGo and
>>   strong players:
>>
>>   Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
>>   stone handcap in the
>>   next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
>>   least once. This
>>   way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over
>>   a whole game
>>   which we are all too curious to see.
>>
>>   Thomas
>>
>>   On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:
>>
>> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
>> Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
>> Aja
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
>>  wrote:
>>   It was exhilerating to witness history being
>> made! Awesome!
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
>>  wrote:
>>
>>   Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>>
>>
>>
>>   From: Computer-go
>> [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
>> Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
>>   Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>>   To: computer-go@computer-go.org
>>   Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to
>> AlphaGo
>>
>>
>>
>> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>>
>> Lukas
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   ___
>>   Computer-go mailing list
>>   Computer-go@computer-go.org
>>   http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
>>
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> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Brian Sheppard]

Playing on KGS will give a good sense. Players have sustained ranks between 9 
and 10 dan there, but never over 10 dan. If AlphaGo can sustain over 10 dan, 
then there is clear separation.

-Original Message-
From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of 
Thomas Wolf
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 4:04 PM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

Chris,

Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list (and my last email 
today) :

We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at any 
stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory does 
only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least one 
player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned already).

But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty meaningless 
and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and adds 
that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.

Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves are 
no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best move 
and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on selfplay 
not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages worked 
out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at 
least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play out the 
sequences.

The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap 
stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.

Regards,
Thomas

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:

> 
> It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo 
> compared to top humans.
> 
> Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, 
> and that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear 
> reason, tells me that the difference is definitely more than one stone 
> handicap, maybe 2+ stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.
> 
> I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against 
> AlphaGo though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will 
> find out.
> 
> On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf"  wrote:
>   A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
>   AlphaGo and
>   strong players:
>
>   Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
>   stone handcap in the
>   next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
>   least once. This
>   way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over
>   a whole game
>   which we are all too curious to see.
>
>   Thomas
>
>   On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:
>
> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
> Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
> Aja
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
>  wrote:
>   It was exhilerating to witness history being
> made! Awesome!
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
>  wrote:
>
>   Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>
>
>
>   From: Computer-go
> [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
> Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
>   Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>   To: computer-go@computer-go.org
>   Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to
> AlphaGo
>
>  
>
> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>
> Lukas
> 
>
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
> 
>
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
> 
> 
>
>   ___
>   Computer-go mailing list
>   Computer-go@computer-go.org
>   http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
> 
>

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Thomas Wolf]

Chris,

Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list
(and my last email today) :

We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at any
stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory does
only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least one
player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned already).

But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty meaningless
and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and adds
that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.

Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves are
no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best move
and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on selfplay
not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages worked
out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at
least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play out
the sequences.

The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.

Regards,
Thomas

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:



It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
compared to top humans.

Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, and
that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear reason, tells
me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, maybe 2+
stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.

I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against AlphaGo
though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will find out.

On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf"  wrote:
  A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
  AlphaGo and
  strong players:

  Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
  stone handcap in the
  next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
  least once. This
  way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over
  a whole game
  which we are all too curious to see.

  Thomas

  On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:

Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
Aja

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
 wrote:
      It was exhilerating to witness history being
made! Awesome!

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
 wrote:

      Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!

       

      From: Computer-go
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
      Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
      To: computer-go@computer-go.org
      Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to
AlphaGo

 

Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

Lukas


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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Sorin Gherman]

It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
compared to top humans.

Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, and
that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear reason, tells
me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, maybe 2+
stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.

I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against AlphaGo
though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will find out.
On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf"  wrote:

> A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between AlphaGo and
> strong players:
>
> Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2 stone handcap
> in the
> next game. Games should continue until each side has won at least once.
> This
> way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over a whole
> game
> which we are all too curious to see.
>
> Thomas
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:
>
> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there are
>> still 2 games to play.
>> Aja
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty <
>> jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>   It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland 
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>>
>>
>>
>>   From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
>> Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
>>   Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>>   To: computer-go@computer-go.org
>>   Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo
>>
>>
>>
>> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>>
>> Lukas
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
>>
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>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Thomas Wolf]

Hi Ingo,

I have the manuscript of 2 books with each 100 computer generated problems
which 1st class insei Yutae Seo (Korea) picked out of 20,000 computer
generated problems, working for 5 months on this selection. Many have a tricky
ko status. I am happy to provide them.

Simpler even and more revealing would be to write down semeai problems using,
for example, the work of Teigo Nakamura. These problems can be evaluated in no
time once one understood the math but which take arbitrarily long to solve if
a brute force search would be applied. Simple pattern matching should not help
there.

Finally, there are seki problems which I showed several professional players,
including famous 9p who could not tell whether the game was over or not.

Lot's of fun tests one could do.

Cheers, Thomas.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:


Hi Thomas,

Von: "Thomas Wolf" 

A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between AlphaGo and
strong players:

Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2 stone handcap in 
the
next game. Games should continue until each side has won at least once. This
way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over a whole game
which we are all too curious to see.


That is one interesting proposal. I have another one:
You are the master of computer tsume go.
Give DeepMind a set of your tsume go compositions (from easy
to really difficult) and let them test which of the problems
AlphaGo can solve.

Cheers, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Michael Alford]

Give it the hatsuyo-ron :)

On Mar 12, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Ingo Althöfer wrote:

> Hi Thomas,
> 
> Von: "Thomas Wolf" 
>> A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between AlphaGo and
>> strong players:
>> 
>> Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2 stone handcap 
>> in the
>> next game. Games should continue until each side has won at least once. This
>> way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over a whole game
>> which we are all too curious to see.
> 
> That is one interesting proposal. I have another one:
> You are the master of computer tsume go.
> Give DeepMind a set of your tsume go compositions (from easy
> to really difficult) and let them test which of the problems
> AlphaGo can solve.
> 
> Cheers, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Thomas,

Von: "Thomas Wolf" 
> A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between AlphaGo and
> strong players:
> 
> Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2 stone handcap in 
> the
> next game. Games should continue until each side has won at least once. This
> way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over a whole game
> which we are all too curious to see.

That is one interesting proposal. I have another one:
You are the master of computer tsume go.
Give DeepMind a set of your tsume go compositions (from easy
to really difficult) and let them test which of the problems
AlphaGo can solve.

Cheers, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Jim O'Flaherty]

I LOVE this suggestion!


On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:

> A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between AlphaGo and
> strong players:
>
> Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2 stone handcap
> in the
> next game. Games should continue until each side has won at least once.
> This
> way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over a whole
> game
> which we are all too curious to see.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:
>
> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there are
>> still 2 games to play.
>> Aja
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty <
>> jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>   It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland 
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>>
>>
>>
>>   From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On
>> Behalf Of Lukas van de Wiel
>>   Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>>   To: computer-go@computer-go.org
>>   Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo
>>
>>
>>
>> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>>
>> Lukas
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Thomas Wolf]

A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between AlphaGo and
strong players:

Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2 stone handcap in 
the
next game. Games should continue until each side has won at least once. This
way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over a whole game
which we are all too curious to see.

Thomas

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:


Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there are still 2 
games to play.
Aja

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty  
wrote:
  It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland  wrote:

  Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!

   

  From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf 
Of Lukas van de Wiel
  Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
  To: computer-go@computer-go.org
  Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

 

Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

Lukas


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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Hideki Kato]

Congratulations again, Aja!

Once you told me (or I told you?) that "Go is fighting!".  Now 
which do you think, fighting or (whole-board) perspective?

Best regrads, Hideki

Aja Huang: 
: 
>Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there are
>still 2 games to play.
>
>Aja
>
>On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty 
>wrote:
>
>> It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Lukas van de Wiel
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>>> *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org
>>> *Subject:* [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>>>
>>> Lukas
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
> inline file
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Hideki Kato]

Dear Ingo,

Thank you for the info.  I guess these three games were so silent 
that both programs estimated almost correct rate and score (for 
the earlier stages, CS could be better than Zen, though :).

Best regards, Hideki

Ingo Althofer: 
: 
>Hi Hideki,

>

>in a sense this is also a great day for your Zen bot.

>Some German guy who is fluent in Chinese (Prof. Dr. Marc

>Oliver Rieger) followed the game today in a Chinese transmission.

>He wrote that the Chinese pro player who was commenting 

>used commercial Zen to get life evaluations for the positions 

>of the game and informed his audience about the %-values!

>

>Best regards, Ingo.

>

>PS. On KGS two users (including me) used Crazy Stone to give

>%-evaluations from time to time, and one more user (ruby) who

>mentioned Zen-% a few times. Our numbers were accepted as

>serious indicators of what was going on.  

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Hideki,

in a sense this is also a great day for your Zen bot.
Some German guy who is fluent in Chinese (Prof. Dr. Marc
Oliver Rieger) followed the game today in a Chinese transmission.
He wrote that the Chinese pro player who was commenting 
used commercial Zen to get life evaluations for the positions 
of the game and informed his audience about the %-values!

Best regards, Ingo.

PS. On KGS two users (including me) used Crazy Stone to give
%-evaluations from time to time, and one more user (ruby) who
mentioned Zen-% a few times. Our numbers were accepted as
serious indicators of what was going on.  
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Ingo Althöfer]

Dear Aja,

congratulations to you and the whole AlphaGo team for this
awesome performance of your bot!

I fully understand that you take also the last two games seriously.
But, please, do it in such a way that Lee Sedol will be willing
to support you in further matches to come. 

Enjoy the day,
Ingo.

PS. Someone else mentioned it already: Your dress code was really
impressive. Maybe you can come to the Computer Games conference
in Leiden (June 30 - July 1) in exactly this jacket. (We will
organize a Union Jack for you :-).

PS-2. I spoke with an outsider. He thought that "Alpha"Go was
meant in the spirit of pre"Beta"version and asked: how strong will
the beta be and how strong the true engine?
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Olivier Teytaud]

And please tell us how many stones AlphaGo can give to Aja or
to other strong players :-)

(well, I understand you have the two last games to take care of :-) )

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Erik van der Werf <
erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Congratulations Aja & Deepmind team!
>
> Now that the victory is clear, perhaps you can say a bit more on the
> latest developments? Any major scientific breakthroughs beyond what we
> already know from the Nature paper?
>
> Enjoy the moments!
>
> Erik
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Aja Huang  wrote:
>
>> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there are
>> still 2 games to play.
>>
>> Aja
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty <
>> jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!



 *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On
 Behalf Of *Lukas van de Wiel
 *Sent:* Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
 *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org
 *Subject:* [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo



 Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

 Lukas

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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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-- 
=
Olivier Teytaud, olivier.teyt...@inria.fr, TAO, LRI, UMR 8623(CNRS - Univ.
Paris-Sud),
bat 490 Univ. Paris-Sud F-91405 Orsay Cedex France
http://www.slideshare.net/teytaud
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Erik van der Werf]

Congratulations Aja & Deepmind team!

Now that the victory is clear, perhaps you can say a bit more on the latest
developments? Any major scientific breakthroughs beyond what we already
know from the Nature paper?

Enjoy the moments!

Erik


On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Aja Huang  wrote:

> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there are
> still 2 games to play.
>
> Aja
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty <
> jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Lukas van de Wiel
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
>>> *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org
>>> *Subject:* [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>>>
>>> Lukas
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Darren Cook]

Well done, Aja and all the DeepMind team (including all the "backroom
boys" who've given the reliability on the hardware side).

BTW, I've gained great pleasure seeing you sitting there with the union
jack, representing queen and country; you'll probably receive a
knighthood. :-)

> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee Sedol. But there
> are still 2 games to play.

I love your focus! The mainstream media might start to lose interest
now, but at least the people on this list appreciate the implications of
the difference between 5-0 and 3-2. Best of luck in the last two games!

(And just when you thought you were almost back to a nice quiet studious
life, I heard rumour (*) that a Ke Jie match is coming soon.)

Darren

*: I say rumour, as the source was an interview with Demis Hassabis, but
only published in Chinese.

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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Hideki Kato]

Congratulations to DeepMind team!  What an excellent full-board 
perspective.

Hideki

Lukas van de Wiel: 
: 
>Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>
>Lukas
> inline file
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Jim O'Flaherty]

It was exhilerating to witness history being made! Awesome!

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland 
wrote:

> Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!
>
>
>
> *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Lukas van de Wiel
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
> *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org
> *Subject:* [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo
>
>
>
> Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!
>
> Lukas
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[David Fotland]

Tremendous games by AlphaGo.  Congratulations!

 

From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of 
Lukas van de Wiel
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:14 AM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

 

Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

Lukas

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[Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

Lukas
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