Re: [Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[djhbrown .]

Igor, you are used to seeing game trees with the game record (= 'main
line') at the top, and variations underneath, which is how they are
usually presented - and  gogui 'thinks' the same way as you, and
automatically labels all branches of the tree as variations A,B,C etc.
with the expectation that the reader will expect the main line to be
variation A.

In my view, this is fine up to a point, and that point is when the
tree is not being used by learners, who need to be able to go back and
forth and leap from branch to branch and from start to finish of
variations and back again, all of which is very awkward with cgoban3
and gogui.

game4commented.sgf is unusual, for reasons i gave in my previous
reply, but perhaps they were not clear to you, so i try to explain in
more detail:

the way game trees are displayed by clients follows the 'standard' set
by smartgo; the author of smartgo has himself tried and failed to
change the standard when he realised what was wrong with it, as he
said in an interview on, as best i remember, the gotalk youtube
channel.

that 'standard' is a norm, but it is not a regulation.

on any game tree display, no matter how oriented, we think of both
axes as being axes of time; in the case of cgoban3 displays, big
chunks of time on the vertical axis, and little move-by-move steps in
time along the horizontal.

ordinarily, variations appear following reviews, which are done after
the game has ended,
if each variation is an afterthought on the previous one, the cgoban3
display makes sense.

but if it isn't, it doesn't.

one way to make the picture clearer would be to colour variation lines
according to whether they are the game record, or a certain
commentator's thoughts, or a players review, etc.  in fact, i did
produce such a picture, for the first 2 commentaries i included, but
after adding a third commentary i felt too lazy to colour a picture of
the new tree.  plus, even though the variation sequences are
relatively short, and there aren't that many of them, the whole tree
is too big to fit onto my computer screen without scrolling, and in
any case, i can only colour a picture of the tree, not the tree
itself, so you would need both the plain tree and my coloured picture
of it side by side, each taking up a whole screen, so you would have
to buy a third screen to see the board as well !

...

Petr asked about text reviews of the game; i appreciate that for those
whose mother tongue is not English, text is easier to understand than
speech (it's the same for me with French, and i depend on Google
Translate for other languages, clumsy though its translations may be).

You could have the best of both worlds, if you watched, say, Kim's
video on one screen whilst having my sgf open on the other - it would
be kind of like having a subtitle tree

but on the other hand, if you want to learn a foreign language like
English, there is only one way.  ONLY ONE:  you have to "swim" in it;
you have to speak as well as listen, and leave reading for the birds.
Native speakers do not learn language by reading, and neither can ESL
students.



as a member of a biological species evolved to swing through trees
rather than read books about them, i find video to be a far more
efficient information transfer medium than text,



which is why, when i get around to explaining how a computer can speak
English about a Go game, i will do so by way of a video presentation
(or will i?...having second thoughts, now, as it would be more
intelligible to second language users in book form).

when it comes to imaginative novels, i empathise with the goat who was
eating some film that had been dumped in a Hollywood garbage can.  His
friend asked what it was like, to which he replied:

 "not bad..., but it's not as good as the book!"
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Re: [Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[Igor Polyakov]

No, the main line is there, but it's labeled as a variation

the atari at J12 at move 73 is indicated as the main line in the sgf, 
and H10 as the variation


however, in the real game H10 was played

On 2016-04-16 5:26, djhbrown . wrote:

yes, it is an unusual configuration, deliberately so, because its
emphasis is on the thought processes of the commentators rather than
just the bland sequence of moves 1,2,3,4 etc; if you only want to see
the main line, you can find it on gogameguru.com.

in my sgf, the branches are organised by time and by logical
progression, so we can follow the thoughts of the commentators before
a move is played, and those they made afterwards, although sometimes i
have put postmatch comments before the main line, where they are
intended by the commentators to be tutorial in nature, so you can see
why the players chose the moves they did in context.

it's not hard to find the main line (the actual game); it's the
longest branch, which is easy to see if you have a tree viewer open on
the side.

i appreciate it would be hard to navigate in the dark without being
able to see the tree as well

On 16/04/2016, Igor Polyakov  wrote:

it bothers me that the main line is not the main line

On 2016-04-15 23:35, djhbrown . wrote:

 = Go talking software
(featuring coalesced expert commentaries on Alphago's mistake in game 4
and a suggestion for an enduser-useful variation network editor
student programming project)
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[Computer-go] AlphaGo Games Reviews?

[Petr Baudis]

  Hi!

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 10:26:06PM +1000, djhbrown . wrote:
> yes, it is an unusual configuration, deliberately so, because its
> emphasis is on the thought processes of the commentators rather than
> just the bland sequence of moves 1,2,3,4 etc; if you only want to see
> the main line, you can find it on gogameguru.com.

  By the way, can anyone recommend good reviews of the games in
a different format than video?  Dinerstain-style SGFs, GoWorld-style
texts, ...

  There are some text reviews at gogameguru, but they are a bit too
terse (and tend to go through the game twice in the article, which is
hard for me to follow).

  Thanks,

-- 
Petr Baudis
If you have good ideas, good data and fast computers,
you can do almost anything. -- Geoffrey Hinton
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Re: [Computer-go] Operators for Frisbee Go Simulation

[Josef Moudrik]

Hi, I had nothing to do this morning, so I hacked together a very
rudimentary version of frisbee-twogtp. The GTP support is done by
introducing three new commands: frisbee-play, frisbee-reg_genmove and
frisbee-epsilon. I chose to add new commands for play and reg_genmove
because of the shift in semantics, I think it is better than subtly change
semantics of std. play and reg_genmove commands. I hope to make my own
frisbee bot soon :-)

https://github.com/jmoudrik/frisbee-twogtp

The purpose of frisbee-play is to support another special value - apart
from PASS - and that is SKIP (meaning involuntary pass as has been used
here). I feel that calling it something else than pass makes actually sense
(and simplifies the terminology imo).

The frisbee-reg_genmove behaves just like a normal genmove, except that
bots might return incorrect moves (of course, hoping that it will land
somewhere nice). To add to the discussion above, I think that this makes
sense to allow, since e.g. for some rather high values of epsilon, the
probability of landing on the center stone is small and "what if" the four
neighbors would be some good moves - the condition to only return valid
moves seems as having no real purpose. Of course, "return incorrect moves"
 at the beginning of the paragraph still means "on board", because adding
support for deliberately aiming outside of board would require some
coordinate-redefinition-fun. (But again, aiming outside of board seems to
make some sense in some positions, one might want to play e.g. A1 which
might have very high utility (killing a group), while landing at A2 might
make the group alive, so expected utility of throwing at A0 might easily be
better than throwing at A1 itself or A2).


Regards,
Josef


On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 7:16 PM Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
wrote:

> Hm interesting question.
>
> komi
> 8.0   49%
> 7.5   50%
> 7.0   51%
> 3.5   56%
> 1.5   58%
> 1.0   60%
> 0.5   61%
> 0.0   61%
>
> Also these win rates do not include the probability of drawing.
>
> Gonçalo
>
> On 14/04/2016 18:08, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:
> > Hi Goncalo,
> >
> >>  accuracy p
> >> komi  0.5  0.2
> >> 7.5   31%  22%
> >> 3.5   43%  36%
> >> 1.5   48%  45%
> >> 1.0   49%  47%
> >> 0.5   51%  49%
> >> 0.0   52%  51%
> >
> > Interesting.
> >
> > Concerning your bot in "normal" 9x9-Go:
> > Which win rates do you get there for different komi values?
> >
> > Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[djhbrown .]

yes, it is an unusual configuration, deliberately so, because its
emphasis is on the thought processes of the commentators rather than
just the bland sequence of moves 1,2,3,4 etc; if you only want to see
the main line, you can find it on gogameguru.com.

in my sgf, the branches are organised by time and by logical
progression, so we can follow the thoughts of the commentators before
a move is played, and those they made afterwards, although sometimes i
have put postmatch comments before the main line, where they are
intended by the commentators to be tutorial in nature, so you can see
why the players chose the moves they did in context.

it's not hard to find the main line (the actual game); it's the
longest branch, which is easy to see if you have a tree viewer open on
the side.

i appreciate it would be hard to navigate in the dark without being
able to see the tree as well

On 16/04/2016, Igor Polyakov  wrote:
> it bothers me that the main line is not the main line
>
> On 2016-04-15 23:35, djhbrown . wrote:
>>  = Go talking software
>> (featuring coalesced expert commentaries on Alphago's mistake in game 4
>> and a suggestion for an enduser-useful variation network editor
>> student programming project)
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>
> ___
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-- 
patient: "whenever i open my mouth, i get a shooting pain in my foot"
doctor: "fire!"
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https://www.youtube.com/user/djhbrown
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Re: [Computer-go] US Go Congress 2016 "Computer Go Afternoon" invitation

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Michael,

thanks for the very interesting information!
 
>>> We already have confirmed attendance from the AlphaGo team. 
>>
>> * Who from the AlphaGo tram intends to come to the US Go Congress?
>
>
> This from the ejournal, minus the photo:
> Google DeepMind team members Aja Huang 7d and Hui Fan 2P have just 
> confirmed that they’ll attend this year’s US Go Congress in Boston. 

Wow! My congratulations to the organizers of the US Congress. They
managed to get two of the central persons from the AlphaGo team
(the other two being David Silver and Demis Hassabis).

For the European Go Congress (in St. Petersburg, same time as US Congress) 
this means that title defender Fan Hui (European Champion 2013-2015) will
not defend his title.

> ... Dr. Huang (right) ... will give the keynote speech — together with 
> European champion Hui Fan 2p — at the Congress opening ceremony on July 30. 

I know Aja from previous Computer Games conferences (in particular
Leiden 2011). He is a very good and entertaining speaker. So, congratulations
again to get him engaged!


> ... We are working on confirming attendance with some other teams, 

They should definitely try to get David Fotland. He (living at the
West coast) is - at least in my eyes - the great old man of Computer Go.

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[Igor Polyakov]

it bothers me that the main line is not the main line

On 2016-04-15 23:35, djhbrown . wrote:

 = Go talking software
(featuring coalesced expert commentaries on Alphago's mistake in game 4
and a suggestion for an enduser-useful variation network editor
student programming project)
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[Computer-go] Postscript... Preface

[djhbrown .]

 = Go talking software
(featuring coalesced expert commentaries on Alphago's mistake in game 4
and a suggestion for an enduser-useful variation network editor
student programming project)
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