Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
I don't have access to windows machines to test and I don't know anything about windows. I can barely use it. Although when my Go bot is complete, I would welcome anyone who wants to port it for me. :)-George On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:29 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... I should have said Unix flavors or Linux/Unix flavors. Mac OS X uses a BSD kernel. HouseBot compiles, but at runtime gets a bus error (segmentation fault). Something is going wrong in the D libraries I use..___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... I should have said Unix flavors or Linux/Unix flavors. Mac OS X uses a BSD kernel. HouseBot compiles, but at runtime gets a bus error (segmentation fault). Something is going wrong in the D libraries I use..___ Then I guess this is a consequence of the fact that you use a relatively immature programming language. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
David Fotland wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) This is not the case however.Windows in the dominate desktop OS and as a result it has become like societies dominated by one race - they tend to call the shots and dismiss the needs of the other - it seems to be what human beings gravitate to. If Linux was the dominant OS you would see it working the opposite way and the Windows users would be dismissed as irrelevant. I'm not commenting on the morality of the users of each system - just a statement of how things are. You would never see a tournament set up such as this with only Linux machines and with the requirement that windows users must bring their own machines.Even though many Windows user assume that only Windows is important, Linux users don't make that assumption - we are used to living in your world, so to speak, even if we feel our OS is superior. I don't fault anyone for believe they work with the best OS, whatever that may be, but it irks me when they show the dismissive attitude. Even though you attached a smiley face to your first statement, it basically reveal the attitude of most Windows users, the belief that everyone else should accommodate them. Of course it doesn't matter if the price must be paid several times by the Linux people. One person could set up the memory stick solution 1 time, or you could require EACH and every Linux person to do the port to a system they may not understand that well. That's where the chauvinism comes in, it probably seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to require several people to do work instead of just one when it's not YOU required to do the work.That's chauvinism. I noticed that a LOT of programmers have been able to distribute BOTH a windows and linux version of their program. I see this with Chess and GO. I very strongly suspect that in most cases, if BOTH versions are available you will find that the developer is a Linux programmer - not a Windows programmer.I know there are a few exceptions to this, but the general mentality of many Windows programmers is not such that a Linux version is likely to happen. Just one last thing to give you a sense of where I am coming from.A while back I had a network problem and called up my service provider to see if there was an outage or whether I had some problem in my own configuration. The guy wanted to help me fix it and started hammering me with questions, such as is the modem plugged in, etc. Probably working from some default troubleshooting list he was trained to use, he asked me to do some Windows thingy, please click your mouse on the control panel ... I told him my computer was running Linux. He asked me, what's linux? I informed him that it was a different operating system and then he immediately blurted out gleefully, Well that's your problem!!! The genius on the other end thought he had solved the problem and suggested that I go out and purchase windows and then it would work. Of course I remained cool, and even saw some humor in this. This poor sucker was another victim of the whole marketing propaganda machinery of the Microsoft Corporation, and probably believed that Bill Gates invented the internet. He was certainly ignorant of the fact that the internet is Unix based and windows connectivity is an oxymoron. Throughout the years I have always had problems with service providers and the internet. My connection has always worked just find on Linux boxes, but there was one case where I had to argue with a DSL provider to get him to sell me the DSL connection - he was 99% sure it just wouldn't work on Unix. So David, this is what I mean by chauvinism - not a moral statement but a general uphill battle that Windows users don't know a thing about. A basic ignorance and unwillingness to yield that we have had to fight from time to time. Despite what you may think, it can't just be dismissed with a hand wave and by saying we are the ones unwilling to yield. - Don David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
I know how to port to windows.I can help you with this. - Don George Dahl wrote: I don't have access to windows machines to test and I don't know anything about windows. I can barely use it. Although when my Go bot is complete, I would welcome anyone who wants to port it for me. :)-George On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:29 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Álvaro Begué wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't own a computer with Windows on it, and that adds significant headache. It's hard to convince friends/work to install cygwin for this kind of purpose. Portability between Linux flavors is not guaranteed. For example, HouseBot does not run on Macs. Although it is possible that there are portability issues between Linux flavors, your example has nothing to do with it: Macs don't usually run Linux... And portability between Linux versions is probably still much stronger that portability between Windows versions. In any case, its almost always solved by a simple recompile. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, David Fotland wrote: Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) Because it's 1 (?) days work for EVERYBODY who has to port, and not just for one person at the event. Also, not everybody has a windows computer ... Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Seems David instigated a nice little platform war :) Oh, platform discussions are sooo 1990s. Don't you guys use a platform independent language yet? OK, time to duck... Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Christoph Birk wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, David Fotland wrote: Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) Because it's 1 (?) days work for EVERYBODY who has to port, and not just for one person at the event. Also, not everybody has a windows computer ... Although you don't absolutely need a Windows computer to cross compile for Windows using mingw32 it is very helpful to have it. I did this without Windows and tested it with wine (a windows emulator) and it worked with Wine, but not on an actual Windows machine. This surprised me.I think you still probably need a windows machine in order to get a valid test, even if it seems to work.In my case I had to repeatedly try things and send a version back and forth to my tester person until I got it right - a very ugly situation. But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. - Don Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Don Dailey wrote: But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. Your post seems to suggest that Nick is not making enough efforts for that tournament, and I think that would be very unfair to him. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Mark Boon wrote: Seems David instigated a nice little platform war :) Oh, platform discussions are sooo 1990s. Don't you guys use a platform independent language yet? OK, time to duck... I'm not going to throw anything at you.But you should duck anyone in case something I throw at someone else happens to fly your way :-) Of course C can be more or less platform independent if you take some care. It's still not convenient for users of either platform to deal with the other platforms idiosyncrasies if they are not used to it - even if just to run a program.I always feel like a duck out of water on those rare occasions where I use my wifes windows computer. I can't seem to get much done in Windows without working the hell out of the mouse. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Rémi Coulom wrote: Don Dailey wrote: But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. Your post seems to suggest that Nick is not making enough efforts for that tournament, and I think that would be very unfair to him. This is nothing more that just a suggestion. I didn't even know that Nick was the one organizing this and I assume he will do a good job as he always does. My suggestion to Nick, is to just delegate this idea to a Linux expert if that's what he wants to do, otherwise not to worry about it. - Don Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] linux and windows
I didn't mean to start a war. I was reacting to the word chauvinistic which to me implies a willful, unfair bias. I use linux and Windows. I ship Windows products solely because the installed base is much higher. If I were to set up a tournament and only had time to support one platform, it would be windows, not because of bias, but because it is more popular and easier to set up (because the person setting it up will be more familiar with it, or because it my machine comes with it preinstalled and pretested). I don't think there is any chauvinism here, so there is no need to insult the organizers by calling names. Windows is just more popular. I've participated in tournaments where the only machines were Linux. I didn't call the orgainizers chauvinistic. I just turned off the gui, recompiled, and participated. I'm not calling the organizers chauvinistic because they only support GTP and KGS. GTP has become more popular than the old GMP tournament protocol, so now I support it. No big deal, and no need to complain. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:54 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] linux and windows Seems David instigated a nice little platform war :) Oh, platform discussions are sooo 1990s. Don't you guys use a platform independent language yet? OK, time to duck... Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] linux and windows
Ahh, no wonder I have 40 unread messages from today. Thanks, David. :) David Fotland wrote: It irks me a little that Linux people refuse to consider porting their programs to Windows :) With cygwin, it's pretty easy to port Linux programs. Since these programs work on CGOS they have a gtp interface, so they don't even need cygwin. Just recompile using gcc and use a free GTP windows GUI. It's pretty trivial. Not trolling for flames, just expressing an opinion. If someone is not willing to put in one day effort to port from Linux to Windows, why should they expect anyone else to put in one day effort to make Linux available as a platform? It seems Linux people are just as chauvinistic as Windows people :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:18 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden Erik van der Werf wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steenvreter no yes Hi Nick, I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows chauvinistic and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to touch the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me touching, but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine untouched. Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build universal setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine.This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. - Don I did not find cheap flights for a short visit and I probably won't have time to attend the EGC for a full week, also housing seems to be getting difficult. So for now better assume that Steenvreter will *not* participate in Leksand. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] linux and windows
I strongly agree with Remi. Nick is going out of his way to allow people to enter, and putting a lot of time to set this up. He deserves praise and thanks, not complaints. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rémi Coulom Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:35 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] linux and windows Don Dailey wrote: But all of this presents another issue - most of us don't like to be forced to work in another environment. It really is far more logical to accommodate the programmers when it is not so difficult to do so and especially when it requires much less total effort than making several of them accommodate you because you don't want to be bothered. This is surely much more likely to produce a smoothly running tournament than to force some of the players out of their element and requiring them to cope the best they can. Your post seems to suggest that Nick is not making enough efforts for that tournament, and I think that would be very unfair to him. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
