Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. Of course the linux command line tools are great when you want them, but they are available on Windows through cygwin, so by developing on Windows I get the best command line tools and the best IDE. e.g. Eclipse Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. OK ? Many companies creates linux software and make a good living. Sendmail is one of them. /Martin ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Martin Møller Skarbiniks Pedersen wrote: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. OK ? Many companies creates linux software and make a good living. Sendmail is one of them. They don't make a living off creating the software. They make a living of selling support and appliances. Unfortunately I don't know how to sell support for my Go program, but I am open to ideas. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Unfortunately I don't know how to sell support for my Go program, but I am open to ideas. I am sorry but I don't think it is possible to earn a living making Go program under linux. But maybe your problem could compile both under windows and linux and sell the linux version. /Martin ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
--- Gian-Carlo Pascutto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin Møller Skarbiniks Pedersen wrote: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. OK ? Many companies creates linux software and make a good living. Sendmail is one of them. They don't make a living off creating the software. They make a living of selling support and appliances. Unfortunately I don't know how to sell support for my Go program, but I am open to ideas. A program which runs on Linux need not be open-source. It can be sold just as any executable for Windows. As for support, you can sell upgrades to the program and database. If you have a set of problems, or professional games, you can sell the 2009 and 2010 upgrades to these. You can also sell the 2009 and 2010 updates to the algorithm. Like any other software, Windows or Mac or Linux, some people will pay and some will not. All executables can be copied, and some people do so; but there are people who choose to support the producers wherever possible. I suspect that it would be possible for a good team with a good idea to obtain some support from a manufacturer of computer clusters. IBM at one time spent millions on the Deep Blue Chess Engine - not with the intent to sell the Chess Engine itself, but for the publicity value and as a testbed for new engineering ideas. Maybe it is possible to gain corporate backing for the next tough AI challenge, the game of Go? Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
I agree one hundred percent. Indeed, using *nix because you don't want to pay for the OS is a moral choice (for me this is not the best reason for using *nix but I know that this is the main reason argued). Otherwise, you will copy Windows as so many, many, many people do. I see it this way, the users that install linux have more money to spent in your programs. ;-) 2008/4/9, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David Fotland wrote: Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. Of course the linux command line tools are great when you want them, but they are available on Windows through cygwin, so by developing on Windows I get the best command line tools and the best IDE. Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. That's not true. Over the years I have payed for Linux software. Not very long ago I bought a chess program for Linux even though a perhaps slightly stronger open source program was available. They made versions available for Linux and windows (I'm not sure about Mac's.) If you actually believe that DOS users are willing to pay and Linux users are not, I think you under a misconception. Years ago I marketed a very strong chess program (for the time) and discovered that almost every chess enthusiast had a copy, but the number I actually sold was pathetic. And I personally know Windows users that routinely rip off software. I know this is subjective, but if I had to guess I would guess that the level of maturity and integrity of Linux users is higher (on average) than Windows users.At least I have that 1 data point, myself :-) But I have known many Linux and Windows people and my strong impression is that many Windows users don't seem to feel guilty about anything they do, and that Linux users have made their choice at least partly due to a certain amount of personal integrity.Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all Windows users are cheats, I know many of fine character and integrity too. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. - Don David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:55 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
On 9-apr-08, at 13:11, David Fotland wrote: Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? It probably depends on the language. Java has several excellent development environments that are superior to Visual Studio IMO. And they're portable. I believe Eclipse can be made to work with gcc but I've never tried. Since that would pretty much prohibit making a Windows version I see no value as you pointed out. This is one of the reasons I switched to Java more than 10 years ago and haven't regretted it a single day. OK, I started this OS war tongue-in-cheek and am surprised by the response. I don't expect anyone to change their idea of their favourite OS any more than changing their choice of programming language. Every OS comes with their problems and frustrations and it's true that once you're used to one of them it seems to work pretty well. It also goes in cycles. Windows XP is actually pretty decent and so was NT at its time. The Mac OS was awful until they finally got OS X together. At the moment I think it's hard to argue against the Mac OS being the best overall OS available and Macs are now also pretty competitive in price compared to PCs. Installing either OS X or Windows XP on a Mac is totally painless, maybe because Apple suplies all the drivers. As far as I'm concerned we can rest this subject here :-) Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
2008/4/9, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. MS Windows users also insist that you give your work for free, look at emule. Maybe you are wrong and loosing sales. Andrés ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Petri Pitkanen wrote: 2008/4/9, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. Some of linux people think so but then again those individuals will not even steal your product as they use only free software and very strict on what licenses mean. But SW market on Linux is pretty - other than professionalk SW likeHW simulators etc.- small so I guess making only for windows if better option . Unless you develop on something likee QT which is fairly portable. There is no question that if you want to sell software commercially, Windows is the way to go. But it's not because of the mentality of the users, it's because Windows is simply a much larger market.Windows is the toy even your grandmother has, it's a fine OS for women and children (just kidding :-) But my point is that Windows is the newbie OS and of course you will get much greater sales there. (I'm not berating it, I realize that sophisticated smart people use and like Windows too.) I think there is a strong desire these days to not put your eggs in one basket, and it seems like every new programming language (or most of them) has platform compatibility as one of their design goals. In fact that is what java is all about and the so called byte code interpreter that most high level languages champion. The reason I do a lot of stuff in tcl is that it is really mature and extremely platform neutral. It's not my favorite high level language, but it's under-rated and better than just ok. But it's the only one I could find (when I was looking) that makes it easy to create executables that run on several platforms without hassle.The executables are really just scripts wrapped up with a runtime, but it is a no-hassle way to deal with clients I have done work for that use windows exclusively without requiring me to develop in Windows. And TK is pretty awesome, you can hack up a good GUI in just a few minutes. The cgos viewer is an example of a script I wrote in a huge hurry at one sitting in one morning.Of course it's not finished or polished, but it works good enough until I get psyched up enough to work on it again. I didn't even know if it worked on Mac's until someone tried it for me (and it did and I wasn't surprised.) - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
and Windows people and my strong impression is that many Windows users don't seem to feel guilty about anything they do, and that Linux users have made their choice at least partly due to a certain amount of personal integrity.Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all Windows users are cheats, I know many of fine character and integrity too. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. - Don David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:55 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Ok, I'm going to speak up in defence of Microsoft. (I'm not really that fond of them, and I am thinking of moving to Linux, particularly if Vista is as bad as I have heard.) I became anti-Mac when trying to buy one for my then employer. It seemed like a reasonable deal, until the salesman asked me what industry are you from?. This totally put me off. I was trying to buy a tool to do a job. When I go to the hardware store to buy a screwdriver, they never ask me what industry I am from. I learned to appreciate MS when we kept having problems with machines crashing on the office LAN (all Windows machines). We had deduced that this somehow involved HP printers, which we had a few of on the LAN. I was following a Compuserve discussion group about HP products, where other users were describing the same problem. HP representatives were saying it was nothing to do with their product. Then an MS representative posted there, claiming that when we installed an HP printer driver, if we selected the default installation, it also overwrote part of the OS (a file called printman.exe, which I think did the scheduling) with a buggy one created by HP. My experiments on the LAN confirmed this, we had a ceremonial bonfire of HP install disks, and that was the end of the crashes. But there was no apology from HP, no admission that their buggy scheduler was the cause of the problems. It was people in MS who had traced the problem and published the answer. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
The difference (and I'm not defending HP here) is that a print scheduler for your OS shouldn't even be *writable* by the install wizard for your printer. Imagine an OS environment where a printer is a completely passive device that accepts requests to print onto paper. Imagine that it doesn't pong every device on the network, or every other printer on the network (remember appletalk?), and that there is no automatic printer discovery. In my opinion, printer discovery should happen well before the time that the printer is installed. There's nothing to discover if you install the printer yourself. I didn't discover the printer attached to my PC when I plugged it in, I discovered it on the shelf of the store that I bought it from. If i'm a network administrator, I should be pretty much aware of when I plug a networked printer into the local network, and it seems to be a reasonable responsibility of mine to first make the decision about which machines should be able to print from it, and then to take the necessary steps to make that happen. Expecting an entire network of machines to do that job for me is not a particularly smart way to manage your network. s. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
You can buy CDs from places like osdisc.com for a few dollars; it's not extravagant. Not being able to burn an iso is one of the defects of Windoze; Linux/OS X/Free BSD systems include that capability at no extra charge. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the?installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my?job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The?newest version?may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out.?The?Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find?such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero?I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall?it later.??I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the free software.?I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection.?? Not that I don't trust?other people's opinion, but?people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I too have had some horrible linux installation nightmares. Most of that was either from a really old linux (when it was less mature) or flaky hardware that caused intermittent problems in Windows (but severe issues for linux) I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Embedded linux? That may not be the most user friendly thing to try. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. The ISO thing is quite annoying. I've hit that too. The really sad thing is that an ISO image is a litteral bit for bit copy of a CD and should be the simplest possible thing to burn. It avoids all sorts of subtle problems with burning files. In linux, you can even mount an iso image and use it directly without a cd drive... I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I will say that when you get past the issue of getting a burned CD, there are some really nice distributions out there. My recent experience is with RedHat, Mandriva, and Ubuntu. So far, I like Ubunutu the best and would recommend it for new users to linux. It may be a catch 22, but under linux, it's trivial to find iso-burning software ;) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. Of course the linux command line tools are great when you want them, but they are available on Windows through cygwin, so by developing on Windows I get the best command line tools and the best IDE. Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:55 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
At 09:11 AM 4/9/2008, you wrote: ... Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. .. eclipse has the cdt http://www.eclipse.org/cdt/ and there are some unit testing packages. thanks Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. maybe not. i use a lot of free as in speech software, but i don't have any problem paying for a vertical app like many faces. thanks --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
--- David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I bought a windoze version of Many Faces, and would be delighted to pay for a Linux version of MFG 12, whenever that becomes available. Having a free as in speech OS does not preclude supporting the efforts of commercial developers. I see Linux market share increasing. Microsoft recently announced that Windows XP will be supported for two more years - presumably due to widespread discontent with Vista. Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:57 PM, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I bought a windoze version of Many Faces, and would be delighted to pay for a Linux version of MFG 12, whenever that becomes available. Having a free as in speech OS does not preclude supporting the efforts of commercial developers. I see Linux market share increasing. Microsoft recently announced that Windows XP will be supported for two more years - presumably due to widespread discontent with Vista. If my primary OS was Linux or BSD of some kind, I would not hesitate to pay for programs if they do something I need. There's just one caveat to this, and that is the relative brittleness of version compatibility. My greatest fear is to be locked into a situation like this. This is the current officially supported list of operating systems for Softimage XSI on Linux, a 3d graphics program I use on Windows. Red Hat Enterprise Linux version 4, kernel 2.6.9. Fedora Project Core 3, kernel 2.6.9-1.667smp. Novell SUSE LINUX 9.3. Default GNOME window manager or KDE. You should also be able to run XSI on other Linux distributions provided that you adhere to the following guidelines: Kernel: 2.4.18-3 – 2.6.11 XFree86, XFree86-libs: 4.2.0, 4.3.0 Three distributions officially supported, out of a multitude. All three being somewhat (understatement?) out of date by now. Limitations on the kernel versions. Etc, etc. This, rather than being non-opensource, is why I'd rather use open source on Linux or BSD, so I can recompile programs for my particular installation, rather than hoping the developer will support it explicitly, as well as keeping up with the relatively rapid changes to the kernel and runtime libraries and any other system part the program happen to rely upon. Lars Nilsson ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the free software.?I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection.?? One word for you: Ubuntu.http://help.ubuntu.com Not that I don't trust?other people's opinion, but?people pitched other things before which we never hear again. Your problems with Linux may not be rare, but they are kind of atypical. You seem to be in too much of a hurry or something. GNUnix really is free, and it really is good. - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM FIGHTBACK! *** * In advance of the Revolution: * Get facts get organized * * Fight the Man! * thru these sites movements * * http://badcopnodonut.fm BAD COP, NO DONUT! * * http://www.warprofiteers.com CorpWatch: War Profiteers * * http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk The DOSSIER: War on Terror * * http://debtslavery.org DebtSlavery.org * * http://www.sweetjesusihatebilloreilly.comBill O'Reilly Watch * * http://www.education-action.net Canadian Fed of Students Québec * * http://mpp.org Marijuana Policy Project * ** NEW-WORLD-ORDER-SPEAK: Structural Adjustment == LoanSharking ** GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH/Q/ZXo3EtEYbt3ERAuUqAJoCHQtfOruuWT+ERKlrIR/UUp5blACg45iJ /yyEcq9/iHvpTuLc69yua7A= =HO72 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
All I can say is that if even burning an ISO CD from windows frustrates you, you are probably not going to like Linux. Having said that, it's a bit ironic that burning an ISO image is easy in Linux but that you have to scour the web to find a way to do it in Windows.It's no surprise that the only way you were able to find to do it cost money (although you worked around it by using a demo version.) This is extremely typical of the difference between these two OS's. You can even mount a CD image, and make it look like part of your file system. For any given random task that you might need to perform you are far more likely to already have the right tool or combination of tools in almost any Linux distribution. And even if you don't you are far more likely to be able to build it quickly in Unix. Linux comes bundled with I don't know how many program languages. Most distributions have a C and C++ compiler ready to go, along with a ton of other languages, such as perl, python, ruby and others that are usually just installed by default.Most of the best free tools for Windows have migrated from Unix and usually are not quite as polished since they were obviously designed for Unix. Cygwin is one outstanding example. I have to say this too: if you compare a lot of little things, none of which may seem very important, you get this sense that Windows made a lot of decisions that were not really quite right.Those decisions were made in the good old days and may have been good decisions back then. However, for whatever reason, Unix also made a lot of decisions a very long time ago that are still appropriate. For example file systems.Each device in windows must have a drive letter encoded, such as c: or d: and then the path.With unix, you don't think in terms of physical drives, that is abstracted away. I can mount a windows drive and put it anywhere I want and it just looks like a directory somewhere. Unix has a single directory tree and you don't need to know or care about physical devices, how many there are, etc. I think this was a huge error with Windows. Another example is the extra character in text files to distinguish lines. Not a big deal, but a minor nuisance, a minor inefficiency. Probably the very biggest show-stopper for me has always been the short-sighted windows conceptual model that a physical computer is owned by only 1 person.This of course made the OS very simple in the old days and was easy, but again this is a legacy thing that causes windows to suffer forever. And over time, windows has gradually tried to fix this, but even Vista hasn't addressed this. Unix was ahead of Vista decades ago in this area. The perfect example of this is that when I asked for a computer to host CGOS on, Dave Dyer was generous enough to let me use his.All he had to do was give me an account and password.I cannot even imagine asking to borrow someones Windows computer on the other side of the world to do some experiments or run some tests.I know it's possible with special software, but it's a hack, not integrated into the Operating Systems way of doing things.To even think of doing it you have to do a lot of communicating with the guy on the other end, agree on what software to use, how it should be set up, etc.Therefore, every unix computer is easily turned into a mail server, web server, ftp server, etc. It's an awkward add-on for a windows computer to allow someone to get files from you (although I do think windows got it right with SMB.) But in general networking with other computers (or users) is a nightmare with windows and was tacked onto the operating system, not integrated as part of it like Unix is. - Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the?installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my?job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The?newest version?may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out.?The?Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find?such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero?I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall?it later.??I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
David Fotland wrote: Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. Of course the linux command line tools are great when you want them, but they are available on Windows through cygwin, so by developing on Windows I get the best command line tools and the best IDE. Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. That's not true. Over the years I have payed for Linux software. Not very long ago I bought a chess program for Linux even though a perhaps slightly stronger open source program was available. They made versions available for Linux and windows (I'm not sure about Mac's.) If you actually believe that DOS users are willing to pay and Linux users are not, I think you under a misconception. Years ago I marketed a very strong chess program (for the time) and discovered that almost every chess enthusiast had a copy, but the number I actually sold was pathetic. And I personally know Windows users that routinely rip off software. I know this is subjective, but if I had to guess I would guess that the level of maturity and integrity of Linux users is higher (on average) than Windows users.At least I have that 1 data point, myself :-) But I have known many Linux and Windows people and my strong impression is that many Windows users don't seem to feel guilty about anything they do, and that Linux users have made their choice at least partly due to a certain amount of personal integrity.Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all Windows users are cheats, I know many of fine character and integrity too. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. - Don David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:55 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
2008/4/9, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. Some of linux people think so but then again those individuals will not even steal your product as they use only free software and very strict on what licenses mean. But SW market on Linux is pretty - other than professionalk SW likeHW simulators etc.- small so I guess making only for windows if better option . Unless you develop on something likee QT which is fairly portable. -- Petri Pitkänen e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
