Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
Tom's answer was witty, but it ignores some concerns. Sure, passing a piece of paper around is easy/simple, but consider why you need to do this. If there is a formal requirement to maintain attendance records, then the piece of paper will have to be put somewhere that it can be found if the need should arise to confirm somebody's presence at a meeting, or to show that such records are being properly maintained. If the organization holds a lot of meetings, then this means shoving said sheet of paper into an ever-expanding folder in a drawer somewhere. Somebody has to decide on a quick retrieval system and enforce it. What happens when the paper is misfiled? When I try to maintain paper records, I am always shocked at how frequently I misfile things. Just think of how many ways a good digital solution could improve on this. Maybe the problem is that there have been too many bad digital solutions, sold to clueless managers by quick-buck artists (who, after all, were just trying to make living like everybody else) who then went out of business, stranding their customers. On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Arnold Kee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tom- I laughed out loud when reading your response*. You're right that without more context, Occum's Razor would suggest passing around a sheet of paper. In fact, the issue is that the information that needs to be collected from participants had been on sheets of paper, but that paper was getting lost in transit between the sheet-filler-outer and the temporary worker we hired to type that information into a database. We could create a scantron form to make the data collection easier, but an even more economical solution is to allow students to type it in themselves--during a presentation. What I'm envisioning is one of our recruiting presenters gathering the information on a wireless PC, and then uploading it through a wireless connection onto a server that stores it. Betty, thanks so much for the GoBook selection. Take care everyone. Arnold *also, an essay could likely be written on the transitional nature of our generation. When many of us were younger, our first response to answer a question probably sent us to concrete references--like the Encyclopedia Brittanica, or another physical source. But now we look to technology, and more specifically, the internet to answer a question. Likewise, we are more inclined to look to a digital solution at times when a material or physical solution is probably the better course of action (like, a sheet of paper). Then againthis has probably been said more than once. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
Everyone's had their say about the missing laptop study. And 94-98% of the world still buys Windows computers and probably will for the rest of our lifetimes. Give it a rest already. We are not off course. You just want to censor the message. If more people valued their expensive laptops fewer of them would be abandoned at the airport. And when it comes to laptops, Windows market share is south of 70. I won't mention that the market for desktops is stagnant while the market for laptops is hot. Or that the next hot market will be pocket computers, which will be dominated by iPhones. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
A polygraph for who? I like the way you cut and pasted that quote from cnet...at first glance it looks like 20,000 google employees have macs. Sorry, corrected it reads... Google has long had a fondness for the Mac, with upwards of 6,000 of its... 20,000 current employees opting to use the Mac over Windows. I was trying to edit out the strikethrough text because it woule not be passed by the ListServ software. I expect you will argue that 6,000 out of 20,000 is not signifiant and that Google is just a bunch of losers, but you would be wrong on both counts. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
Nothing stopping you from scanning the paper sheets. I too would vote for a pad and pencil LONG before I would pass around an electronic device. Heck, under your scenario, an unscrupulous or ham-fisted person could delete previous entries! On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:41 AM, John Emmerling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom's answer was witty, but it ignores some concerns. Sure, passing a piece of paper around is easy/simple, but consider why you need to do this. If there is a formal requirement to maintain attendance records, then the piece of paper will have to be put somewhere that it can be found if the need should arise to confirm somebody's presence at a meeting, or to show that such records are being properly maintained. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
Tom's answer was witty, but it ignores some concerns. That was a very serious answer (though I never object to being called witty). If the organization holds a lot of meetings, then this means shoving said sheet of paper into an ever-expanding folder in a drawer somewhere. Paper is cheap. Folders are cheap. File cabinets are cheap. You should have a document retention policy that discards the old so a fixed number of file cabinets will suffice. Somebody has to decide on a quick retrieval system and enforce it. Simple chronological. The date of any meeting can typically be retrived by your calendering system. In my office we maintain a daily diary. The only major decision is whether to add paper at the front or the back of the stack. I prefer front, most people put it at the back. Depending on the number of meetings you have yearly or monthly folders. Each year begins with the oldest folder(s) getting discarded. What happens when the paper is misfiled? You curse and shuffle through the stack. When I try to maintain paper records, I am always shocked at how frequently I misfile things. That is a personal fault, don't blame the file folder. P.S. How do you prove that your electronic record of the meeting has not been tampered with? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
Your question could be more easily answered had it not contained the phrase productivity and happiness, as if they are somehow connected to one another in a way that suggests that if you have one, you'll automatically have the other. See, there is the IT manager as slave master mentality I'm describing. One of my clients just pink slipped their IT team and brought in a new team. I must say that this new team reinforces my long-held beliefs about IT management. The new guys really know their stuff and don't hide behind techno babble. They are doing a great job at fullfilling unmet needs that had been hanging around for years. When asked about needed capabilities their typical response is something like we've been testing that for a couple of weeks now, go ahead and let us know how it works for you. When they occasionally screw up they forthrightly say we screwed that one up and are redoing it. The previously hostile computer users are very willing to forgive and move on. It is a joy to see this cooperative spirit in action. Staff is much more productive and much more happy. Yes those two words are connected. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
What I'm envisioning is one of our recruiting presenters gathering the information on a wireless PC, and then uploading it through a wireless connection onto a server that stores it. If you must, I would go with an under $100 Palm device. You could get software to create a custom form or just use the To-Do list function with each person entering their name as a new item. Computer sync-up software comes with the device. A desktop client (originally developed by Apple for Mac and Win) gets you access to the data which you can then cut and paste as your require. Palm OS rocks, WINCE is as it says. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
HAHAHAHA! You are too funny Tom! But you didn't use one of them cute smileys, so it's hard to tell if you're being serious - as most of your posts seem ... Most of the time, Tom is not all that serious. He is having fun asking questions from the left field. He enjoys making edgy remarks. A lot of the time, I have scratched my head about what Tom says and then say to myself there's a certain truth to what he is saying. If you aren't having fun doing IT stuff, it gets boring real fast. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
On Jul 12, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Staff is much more productive and much more happy. Yes those two words are connected. Fine in that particular situation. However, the phrase more productive can mean that folks are being overworked, often because fewer employees (a cost saving measure) are being asked to do the work that a greater number employees used to accomplish. The Simon Legree workplace concept. In such instances, employee happiness does not often follow. But, we have digressed. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
I too would vote for a pad and pencil LONG before I would pass around an electronic device. Heck, under your scenario, an unscrupulous or ham-fisted person could delete previous entries! ... Or walking away with the device. Or a person with 10 thumbs dropping it and losing all the records. When you have an electronic gadget, maintaining it (software, syncing, charging, updating it, making sure next version of your desktop OS can handle its syncing software, etc. etc.) will take a lot of man-hours than just shoving a paper into a folder. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
-Original Message- I would expect Jeff to not get it. Many people have emotional attachments to things like pets or cars or tools. When a tool is empowering its user, its user gets a rush and some of that good feeling transfers to the tool. This is all freshman Psych 101 stuff. You should have taken Psych 102. It would have explained this level of psychosis. Like everyone, I have all sorts of inanimate objects throughout my house. I have tools, books, DVDs, furniture, etc. The only ones I have an emotional attachment to are those that actually have tangible emotions tied to them for concrete reasons: i.e. those attached to a singular and unique event or to family or friends in one way or another. I feel no such longing for my socket set or vacuum cleaner. I still have my first computer in a closet. For obvious sentimental reasons, I keep that one, but those that came after get recycled. If you have an emotional attachment to a computer or OS that you are currently using, and assuming you didn't write your first published novel on it, it only shows that you are lacking something elsewhere. Get out more. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
One of my clients just pink slipped their IT team and brought in a new team. I must say that this new team reinforces my long-held beliefs about IT management. Don't you mean *doesn't* reinforce my long-held beliefs about IT management? Otherwise, you've been lying to us all along, you sly dog. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
I agree about the hand-held electronic device. Here's an alternate solution (if it's any good, it's probably already been implemented. If not, then it's probably a lousy idea): Where I work, most important meetings include some attending remotely (by phone in our case, but other voice channels are possible). Therefore, all attendees, both local and remote, announce themselves by speaking their names (actual procedure). The teleconferencing system could easily make a record of each attendee whose name is spoken. New users of the system would be required (one time) to train the system to recognize their name, when they register. Not a big challenge with today's technology. How to organize and ensure the integrity of this information is no different than for any other corporate data, a problem that has been solved many times. On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Michael Fernando [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too would vote for a pad and pencil LONG before I would pass around an electronic device. Heck, under your scenario, an unscrupulous or ham-fisted person could delete previous entries! ... Or walking away with the device. Or a person with 10 thumbs dropping it and losing all the records. When you have an electronic gadget, maintaining it (software, syncing, charging, updating it, making sure next version of your desktop OS can handle its syncing software, etc. etc.) will take a lot of man-hours than just shoving a paper into a folder. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
Here's an alternate solution (if it's any good, it's probably already been implemented. If not, then it's probably a lousy idea): Or you could become one of those progressive companies that requires all employees to have an RFID tag surgically implanted. This would have the added benefit of ratting on anybody who sneaks out early. Brain wave analysis to spot anyone who might be daydreaming is left for a future upgrade. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
Don't you mean *doesn't* reinforce my long-held beliefs about IT management? No. It reinforced my long-held beliefs by demonstrating that good IT management is possible and can quickly turn around a bad situation to everyone's benefit. It was a good controlled experiment because nothing changed other than the IT team. The situation went from black to white in just a few weeks time. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Where's my computer?
The IT departments I've worked with who have had bad attitudes have usually gained those attitudes as a larger part of the structure of the company/CEO they work for. As they say: QFT. Mismanagement starts at the top. One way or another. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Camera recommendation?
With thanks to everyone for previous recommendations (i love my Garvin 360. It really works great!), I'm asking for another recommendation. I primarily need to take pictures of things (mainly antiques which I occasionally offer for sale at local shows). Many close-ups. I need crisp pictures, especially of identifying marks on ceramics and porcelain. I am in the habit of cropping, adjusting for color, etc, using PhotoShop after the pictures have been snapped. I do use a light box to shoot most of the pictures I take for my business, but some things are too big to fit into it. A tripod is also available when I need it. And the odd family photo will also be taken. I also need jpg images that are of reasonable size for uploading to my website and others, therefore the picture files can't be hundreds of megabytes each. My computer of choice is my iMac. (Ok - it's my only computer, ergo my computer of choice.) Any particular preferences? Recommendations? Specifics re. reasons for recommendations are very much appreciated. Price, of course, is an object. (Isn't it always?) But I'm more interested in quality and ruggedness than a cheap price. This camera will replace a Nikon Coolpix 4500 which has been great, but which is getting a bit dated. The Nikon was originally purchased to take close-ups of small items, for which it is great, but I'm interested to know what's out now. Close-ups continue to be needed, so anything that takes close-ups to far-aways would be helpful. TIA for any and all suggestions. Mical Wimoth Carton [EMAIL PROTECTED] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Camera recommendation?
What is your price range That has a lot to do with it. Again I can't help but point you to Consumer Reports Web site they just recently reviewed cameras and I can't remember what they recommended. Stewart At 06:20 PM 7/12/2008, you wrote: With thanks to everyone for previous recommendations (i love my Garvin 360. It really works great!), I'm asking for another recommendation. I primarily need to take pictures of things (mainly antiques which I occasionally offer for sale at local shows). Many close-ups. I need crisp pictures, especially of identifying marks on ceramics and porcelain. I am in the habit of cropping, adjusting for color, etc, using PhotoShop after the pictures have been snapped. I do use a light box to shoot most of the pictures I take for my business, but some things are too big to fit into it. A tripod is also available when I need it. And the odd family photo will also be taken. I also need jpg images that are of reasonable size for uploading to my website and others, therefore the picture files can't be hundreds of megabytes each. My computer of choice is my iMac. (Ok - it's my only computer, ergo my computer of choice.) Any particular preferences? Recommendations? Specifics re. reasons for recommendations are very much appreciated. Price, of course, is an object. (Isn't it always?) But I'm more interested in quality and ruggedness than a cheap price. This camera will replace a Nikon Coolpix 4500 which has been great, but which is getting a bit dated. The Nikon was originally purchased to take close-ups of small items, for which it is great, but I'm interested to know what's out now. Close-ups continue to be needed, so anything that takes close-ups to far-aways would be helpful. TIA for any and all suggestions. Mical Wimoth Carton [EMAIL PROTECTED] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] When to buy a new PC?
I have an older Dell XPS Gen 2 computer with Windows XP Home --3 GHz Pentium 4, 1 Meg DDRAM, about 1.5 terabytes disk drives, about 250 GB internal: the rest external. Very, very many applications, most used frequently. These include graphics, video processing, mathematical processing (e.g., Matlab), but not many video games. I've noticed that the computer has slowed down a lot from the original purchase 5 years ago. The main reason for slow down is (I think) the disk drives. The internal disk drives are all SATA (about 250 GB). Mostly I have to wait for the drives to complete operation to get a response on any application, such as browser or word processor. I have already checked to see if disk caching, SMART, and disc test software can find a problem, but these report none. If I buy a new computer, will the disk delay be expected to improve significantly? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Camera recommendation?
I think Digital Photography Review is still the the best place I have ever seen for seriously comprehensive reviews of still cameras. http://www.dpreview.com/ Get advice and ideas of what models to look at and then go there and compare. Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With thanks to everyone for previous recommendations (i love my Garvin 360. It really works great!), I'm asking for another recommendation. I primarily need to take pictures of things (mainly antiques which I occasionally offer for sale at local shows). Many close-ups. I need crisp pictures, especially of identifying marks on ceramics and porcelain. I am in the habit of cropping, adjusting for color, etc, using PhotoShop after the pictures have been snapped. I do use a light box to shoot most of the pictures I take for my business, but some things are too big to fit into it. A tripod is also available when I need it. And the odd family photo will also be taken. I also need jpg images that are of reasonable size for uploading to my website and others, therefore the picture files can't be hundreds of megabytes each. My computer of choice is my iMac. (Ok - it's my only computer, ergo my computer of choice.) Any particular preferences? Recommendations? Specifics re. reasons for recommendations are very much appreciated. Price, of course, is an object. (Isn't it always?) But I'm more interested in quality and ruggedness than a cheap price. This camera will replace a Nikon Coolpix 4500 which has been great, but which is getting a bit dated. The Nikon was originally purchased to take close-ups of small items, for which it is great, but I'm interested to know what's out now. Close-ups continue to be needed, so anything that takes close-ups to far-aways would be helpful. TIA for any and all suggestions. Mical Wimoth Carton [EMAIL PROTECTED] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] When to buy a new PC?
1gig of RAM isn't likely enough and is the primary cause of your delays. Double it or remove some of your startup stuff. You can probably speed things up tremendously by reinstalling the OS; certainly as much as a new computer, anyway. There have been no big improvements in SATA lately, so that's probably as fast as you can do disk-wise with a new machine. For single threaded apps that's still a fine machine, but for video and math you may want to get one of the newer multicore cpus. For apps written to take advantage of them, like most video apps, they'll speed up rendering 2X or 4X. But you'll still be *editing* at 1X! :( On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have an older Dell XPS Gen 2 computer with Windows XP Home --3 GHz Pentium 4, 1 Meg DDRAM, about 1.5 terabytes disk drives, about 250 GB internal: the rest external. Very, very many applications, most used frequently. These include graphics, video processing, mathematical processing (e.g., Matlab), but not many video games. I've noticed that the computer has slowed down a lot from the original purchase 5 years ago. The main reason for slow down is (I think) the disk drives. The internal disk drives are all SATA (about 250 GB). Mostly I have to wait for the drives to complete operation to get a response on any application, such as browser or word processor. I have already checked to see if disk caching, SMART, and disc test software can find a problem, but these report none. If I buy a new computer, will the disk delay be expected to improve significantly? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Camera recommendation?
This camera will replace a Nikon Coolpix 4500 which has been great, but which is getting a bit dated. The Nikon was originally purchased to take close-ups of small items, for which it is great, but I'm interested to know what's out now. Since you are taking pictures for posting online you won't benefit from higher resolution, which is a major feature of newer cameras. Since you use a tripod you won't care about anti-shake features. In your appliation camera size won't matter. So I can't imagine what you may be seeking in a new camera. What is it that you do not like about your Coolpix 4500? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Best Rugged Mini PC
Arnold - Is the data you're collecting something that accumulates during the meeting, or something that can wait until the end of the meeting? Can it be done on several [secured] touch-screen devices as people are leaving? Assuming that everyone has a PDA of their own or a mobile phone that's relatively smart, can they text the data to a single place? You can send the group an SMS and they can reply to you individually via SMS or email from their mobile phones, then you can upload the data to a computer. Can't do SMS texting? Their kids can teach them [My son and I text frequently] you can teach them quickly, or they can be required to have devices with idiot-proof QWERTY [sorry, no Dvorak] keyboards, or touch-screens, like a Palm Treo, Sony-Ericsson P1, Blackberry, Samsung Blackjack, Nokia 61i, iPhone, Moto Q, etc--or a GoBook. These devices should be theirs, not yours. How many people in your office don't have cell phones of their own? I got one for $29 at 7-11. Not as cheap as paper, but can work well as long as you state your questions so that they can be answered in one or two words, to make replies easier, and entry into a database faster in the end. Lock them in until they send the data, or send them text messages after they leave until they reply as requested. For those who carry their own notebooks, they can send email or IM or email to SMS. P.S. How do you prove that your electronic record of the meeting has not been tampered with? Checksum; MD5 hash. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Camera Recommendation?
The price range is flexible, but I'm willing to spend up to $500 - $600 if necessary. This is a business expense, so I do get a tax credit. Tom P asked what I don't like about the Coolpix 4500. The major problem is that it focuses, and then refocuses inappropriately, sometimes when I'm taking close-ups of ceramics and porcelain marks. It actually ends up taking fuzzy pictures as a result. So I'm wondering if there's not something easier to use, something that I can set the focus on and force the camera to do as I ask, rather than what it wants. I'll check out the sites referred to in posts , if I decide to bite, I'll post how things play out. Mical Wimoth Carton [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is your price range That has a lot to do with it. Again I can't help but point you to Consumer Reports Web site they just recently reviewed cameras and I can't remember what they recommended. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Camera Recommendation?
You are right in the price range for the newer DSLR's which might be what you need to look at. They give you much more control over what you are doing than many point and shoot digitals. Stewart At 09:37 PM 7/12/2008, you wrote: The price range is flexible, but I'm willing to spend up to $500 - $600 if necessary. This is a business expense, so I do get a tax credit. Tom P asked what I don't like about the Coolpix 4500. The major problem is that it focuses, and then refocuses inappropriately, sometimes when I'm taking close-ups of ceramics and porcelain marks. It actually ends up taking fuzzy pictures as a result. So I'm wondering if there's not something easier to use, something that I can set the focus on and force the camera to do as I ask, rather than what it wants. I'll check out the sites referred to in posts , if I decide to bite, I'll post how things play out. Mical Wimoth Carton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] When to buy a new PC?
Jkdefrag is a free defragger that is much better (and faster) than the native defrag utility. I use it on my XP machines. http://www.kessels.com/Jkdefrag/ Also, XP SP3 is said to have a 5%-10% performance improvement over SP2. Defrag before applying the service pack. -Original Message- You can probably speed things up tremendously by reinstalling the OS; certainly as much as a new computer, anyway. There have been no big improvements in SATA lately, so that's probably as fast as you can do disk-wise with a new machine. Try refreshing the drives by running the Windows defrag utility. Run the error checking utility first. Note how many programs you have open at once. See what happens when you keep the number to a minimum. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
