Re: [CGUYS] Rural Broadband
Interesting story from AP describes a push to serve rural areas with broadband by delivering it over existing power lines. This may be just what the doctor ordered. Has BPL been tweaked so that it doesn't interfere with shortwave and ham radios any more? That was the main objection to its rollout a few years ago. BPL blocked emergency radio transmissions, since ham operators are often broadcasting even before police, fire and other first responders. If BPL has been fixed, I'll sign up! Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>The trial was a joke with its napping judge, artifical market >definition and contrived reasoning. Substitute Apple for Microsoft in >the ruling and it makes just as much sense. You must work for Microsoft. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Any recommendations about PowerLine Ethernet
I wasn't planning on transmitting video, but the NetGear equipment I was looking at claiming 85 Mbps. I will give it a try and see how it goes. Thanks, Chris Jay Montero wrote: I use a NetGear power ethernet adapter which works great for my needs but I don't know if you'd be happy transmitting video over it since mine tops out at around 22Mb per second. --- Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Chris Mollner wrote: I am considering using PowerLine Ethernet Adapters to connect my TV and Blu-ray player to my home network so they can access the Internet for updates. The TV and Blu-Ray player are in the basement. I have an Airport Base Station on the second floor connected to my cable modem. It appears that I could use a Powerline 4-Port Ethernet Adapter in the basement and a Powerline Ethernet Adapter connected on the second floor to connect the devices to my home network. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
I had some concerns about my increasing boot time over the past year so I wondered if this might help. Obviously it didn't so I need to look elsewhere. Richard P. > Good that you ran the test but you are still absolutely missing the whole > point of the discussion. > Normally you don't see a change after scrapping the prefetch. There would > only be a meaningful improvement in boot start up after scrapping the > prefetch files if one or more of the files was corrupted. Then there would > be a HUGE difference. No one said it would improve performance otherwise. > > It is just simply a troubleshooting vector you try when you have slow boot > symptoms... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> No one said it would improve performance otherwise. Actually, Tom did, which was the genesis for this very long and agonizing thread. "I see the largest factor with Windows seems to be crap that accumulates in the OS. It could be the registry or in could be the caches or the prefetch. Clearing or fixing those often speeds things up a lot." There is some truth in that statement, but not as far as the prefetch claim goes, except under the rare and unique conditions that Tom eventually identified, but misapplies as general troubleshooting for general performance issues. Thank you for testing, Richard. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
> I saw with my own eyes that Netscape was innovating rapidly and rolling > out new versions at twice the rate MS was able to maintain. MS was unable > to innovate and responded by offering IE for free and even offered prizes > for downloading it. Then MS started to bundle IE with the OS and made it > impossible to delete it. To the above I will answer: so? Feel free to point out what history I rewrote. > Netscape's revenue was choked off and it could not continue in business. > AOL bought Netscape for its lawsuit value and was able to turn a profit > at that. Again, so ravaged that they could only be sold for more than US Air was worth at the time. > MS was convicted as a predatory monopilist. Then administrations changed > and I was shocked at the machinations I observed. Cheney's son-in-law was > put in charge of the MS case at Justice. The righteous judge was kicked > out. The new judge was the same compliant judge that Bush used to okay > his Patriot Act misdeeds. The former judge was ready to throw the book at > MS. With the new masters at Justice and the new judge I saw MS get off > with virtually no penalty. Being fitted for your new tin foil hat this week? They got to the DC Court of Appeals too! The trial was a joke with its napping judge, artifical market definition and contrived reasoning. Substitute Apple for Microsoft in the ruling and it makes just as much sense. So, tell us Tom, how much should Google be charging us to use their search engine? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
Good that you ran the test but you are still absolutely missing the whole point of the discussion. Normally you don't see a change after scrapping the prefetch. There would only be a meaningful improvement in boot start up after scrapping the prefetch files if one or more of the files was corrupted. Then there would be a HUGE difference. No one said it would improve performance otherwise. It is just simply a troubleshooting vector you try when you have slow boot symptoms... db Richard P. wrote: I wasn't having any serious problem with my XP, but the discussion intrigued me, so I did some tests. I tested boot-up times before deleting Prefetch, and then after deleting Prefetch (ignoring the second boot because it was rebuilding the Prefetch files). The resulting differences were negligible in my case, leading me to believe that there was nothing wrong with the original items in the Prefetch folder. FYI, before deleting, there were 99 items in the folder, and then after, only 54 items. While this was a completely unscientific test (variables such as programs accessing the Internet and entering a password), it at least demonstrates to me that for my circumstances, there isn't any appreciable difference. Just my observations... Richard P. I did it. I did not need a stopwatch to see the difference. A computer that the user hated to use instantly became normal. Improvement was better than 10 to 1. Yes, *in this particular instance* where the prefetch folder was actually the problem *for a long boot time*, it worked. Get 10 more PCs at random, time the boot and app load times, clear the prefetch folder and time boot and app load times again. Let me know how that goes. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] router/accesspoint
We were on the remote help with the verizon tech where he controls the computer while on the fone with us and he couldn't get it to work with wap so he put it back to wep ...since there's a firewall in the router, is wep enuf? -Original Message- From: Jeff Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:23 PM Subject: Re: router/accesspoint I have the same router and while I didn't try and set up the wireless (I disabled it, actually), since I already have a nice wireless AP already, it provided the option to use WPA or WPA2. What exactly is the trouble you are having? BTW, it seems that WPA/TKIP has been cracked, sorta. WPA2/AES is not. http://www.itworld.com/security/57285/once-thought-safe-wpa-wi-fi-encryption -cracked > -Original Message- > my sister has fios and now has an IBMT23Win2000 for which we got a > netgear wg511t pc card accesspoint which lets her fileshare and > internet share > via an actiontec mi424wr gateway router supplied by verizon > ...however, I am having misery trying to help her to set up wpa as it > will only run with wep so far ...any advice? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
I wasn't having any serious problem with my XP, but the discussion intrigued me, so I did some tests. I tested boot-up times before deleting Prefetch, and then after deleting Prefetch (ignoring the second boot because it was rebuilding the Prefetch files). The resulting differences were negligible in my case, leading me to believe that there was nothing wrong with the original items in the Prefetch folder. FYI, before deleting, there were 99 items in the folder, and then after, only 54 items. While this was a completely unscientific test (variables such as programs accessing the Internet and entering a password), it at least demonstrates to me that for my circumstances, there isn't any appreciable difference. Just my observations... Richard P. > >> I did it. I did not need a stopwatch to see the difference. A computer >> that the user hated to use instantly became normal. Improvement was >> better than 10 to 1. > > Yes, *in this particular instance* where the prefetch folder was > actually the problem *for a long boot time*, it worked. > > Get 10 more PCs at random, time the boot and app load times, clear the > prefetch folder and time boot and app load times again. Let me know > how that goes. > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
No he was not bald, but he used the baldness cure anyway. Now he is not bald. Wow! The baldness cure must have worked. >Was he bald? > >I do understand that. I'm just not buying the claims made for Dr. Tom's >Magical Prefetch Elixir and Baldness Cure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
>Ok...so does that mean to simply go to c:\windows\prefetch and delete the >contents with hopes some of it is useless and some of it is corrupted? If your problem looks like a prefetch problem then clearing the prefetch as you describe above is a sensible thing to do. I know of no way to determine which prefetch files does what so I deep six them all. I do not have the patience to do them one at at time. Since they get rebuilt automatically, who cares. If this does not fix anything you will then know you did not have a prefetch problem. Don't stop to cry for your martyred prefetch files. Clear out some more crap someplace else. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>Let me get this straight: You're complaining because Netscape, which >was already declining in quality and despite this was bought for $4.2 >*Billion* dollars by AOL, who promptly killed it with ham-hands, is a >tragedy? You're complaining because we now have a far superior >browser in the form of Firefox? You're complaining because Apple >includes a free (and according to you, very good) browser with their >OS? You are rewriting history to favor the murderous regime you are so fond of. I saw with my own eyes that Netscape was innovating rapidly and rolling out new versions at twice the rate MS was able to maintain. MS was unable to innovate and responded by offering IE for free and even offered prizes for downloading it. Then MS started to bundle IE with the OS and made it impossible to delete it. Netscape's revenue was choked off and it could not continue in business. AOL bought Netscape for its lawsuit value and was able to turn a profit at that. MS was convicted as a predatory monopilist. Then administrations changed and I was shocked at the machinations I observed. Cheney's son-in-law was put in charge of the MS case at Justice. The righteous judge was kicked out. The new judge was the same compliant judge that Bush used to okay his Patriot Act misdeeds. The former judge was ready to throw the book at MS. With the new masters at Justice and the new judge I saw MS get off with virtually no penalty. I'm sure you will now insist that the Bush Justice Dept was not corrupt and that IE is double plus good and won out on quality, just like Vista. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] rootkit test
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146256/vistas_despised_uac_nails_rootkits_tests_find.html Interesting article detailing rootkit tests on xp and vista. Mike * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] The right harddrive?
Go to: http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/ and it will show you how to replace it and what tools are needed. It will also offer to sell you the parts. (I've never bought from them so I can't recommend one way or the other about buying from them.) I recommend that you can use them as guide, so where ever buy the parts you will buy the right parts. Steve Arnold Kee wrote: Hello all: Can someone help me confirm that this hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136200 Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM Is appropriate for my 2007 MacBook (2.0 Gig) ? I don't know this stuff well enough, and don't want to make yet another mistake. Thanks! Arnold * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
Was he bald? -Original Message- > Normally clearing out prefetch doesn't improve performance... the opposite. > But it does if there was corruption in that data... so it is a > simple thing to try. Prefetch will rebuild itself. I do understand that. I'm just not buying the claims made for Dr. Tom's Magical Prefetch Elixir and Baldness Cure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
Yes. Worms are also cached... be sure to clear the cache after a through cleaning of worms, before the next reboot. Are you sure that .pf files are just pointers? some of my .pf files are over 1MB is size! - Brian - Original Message - From: "RLeeSimon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [CGUYS] better Ok...so does that mean to simply go to c:\windows\prefetch and delete the contents with hopes some of it is useless and some of it is corrupted? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> Ok...so does that mean to simply go to c:\windows\prefetch and delete the > contents with hopes some of it is useless and some of it is corrupted? Sure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
> Firefox and WebKit (the code behind Safari) are free open-source > software. They are the debris left over after Microsoft destroyed a > vibrant new technology market by making it impossible to make a profit in > it. Let me get this straight: You're complaining because Netscape, which was already declining in quality and despite this was bought for $4.2 *Billion* dollars by AOL, who promptly killed it with ham-hands, is a tragedy? You're complaining because we now have a far superior browser in the form of Firefox? You're complaining because Apple includes a free (and according to you, very good) browser with their OS? Seriously? Are you sure that there was a long-term buck to be made in the browser business to begin with? Sounds like sour grapes to me. > If you want to know how bad "free" is, all you have to do is read > Microsoft swaking about the evils of free software when an open-source > project starts to gain traction against one of MS's over-priced products. MS knows that Google and open source software is the biggest threat to their continued dominance. They should be scared and are rightly so, a mistake they obviously learned from IBM. I'm waiting for you to lecture us on the evils of free search engines. I wonder if MS will ever be able to figure out how to actually make money at that? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> Actually the problem was not just long boot time. It was also long launch > time for all the key applications. Clearing prefetch fixed it all. And if > you understand how Prefetch works that makes perfect sense. Yes, it does make perfect sense. However, that was not the issue here. > You are just being silly. If something is broke and I fix it then it is > fixed. If something is not broke, I have nothing to do and it is still > not broke. Maybe you would claim that you fixed it, but I would not. What > is the sound of one hand clapping? This issue that the OP brought up was general performance issues, not slow boot or app loading. You can have slow boots or slow app loading for reasons unrelated to the prefetch. > I gave a precise and standard definition of a cache in a previous email. > It is defined functionally. If you say so. Call it macaroni, for all I care at this point. I think we've wrung about all we can out of this wet cat. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
Ok...so does that mean to simply go to c:\windows\prefetch and delete the contents with hopes some of it is useless and some of it is corrupted? -Original Message- From: Tom Piwowar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:42 PM Subject: Re: better >"...it is a bad idea to periodically clean out that folder as some tech >sites suggest. For one thing, XP will just re-create that data >anyways; secondly, it trims the files anyways if there's ever more than >128 of them so that it doesn't needlessly consume space. So not only >is deleting the directory totally unnecessary, but you're also putting >a temporary dent in your PC's performance." > >You can either take advice from an engineer on the Windows Performance >team, Mark Russinovich, or from the Mac guy. Your choice. I would go with the Mac Guy because the Mac Guy has also read all the conflicting information on prefetch so he therefore systematically tested this one. A PC that was taking over 10 minutes to start up was turned into a peppy computer by simply clearing out this prefetch folder. Nothing else was done to this PC. QED. Most people familiar with the operation of computers know that cache files can and do become corrupted. Corrupt caches do just the opposite of what they were intended to do. As with all cache files, deleting them will cause a performance hit as they get recreated. After that one-time hit your now non-corrupt cache file will do its job correctly and actually speed up your PC. Also the Mac Guy did not say to "periodically clean out that folder", but to clean it out in response to a specific performance problem. Also consider that if Russinovich were really as smart as you say, he would be working for Apple. He isn't so he ain't. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>Are you sure that's not called "Firefoxing" of "Safari-ing" the >competition? Maybe "iTuning" is a better term. Maybe your knowledge of economics and business is zilch? Firefox and WebKit (the code behind Safari) are free open-source software. They are the debris left over after Microsoft destroyed a vibrant new technology market by making it impossible to make a profit in it. If you want to know how bad "free" is, all you have to do is read Microsoft swaking about the evils of free software when an open-source project starts to gain traction against one of MS's over-priced products. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>Yes, giving away useful things to consumers is just such a horrible >crime. I'm going home and uninstalling Firefox right away to avoid >being caught up in the coming dragnet.. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
>Yes, *in this particular instance* where the prefetch folder was >actually the problem *for a long boot time*, it worked. Actually the problem was not just long boot time. It was also long launch time for all the key applications. Clearing prefetch fixed it all. And if you understand how Prefetch works that makes perfect sense. >Get 10 more PCs at random, time the boot and app load times, clear the >prefetch folder and time boot and app load times again. Let me know >how that goes. You are just being silly. If something is broke and I fix it then it is fixed. If something is not broke, I have nothing to do and it is still not broke. Maybe you would claim that you fixed it, but I would not. What is the sound of one hand clapping? >By your logic *anything* is a cache, which now could include a burlap >sack of nickels or Miley Cyrus and that something that worked once on >a lark is obviously the answer to everything. (I'm picturing Steve >Martin saying "You need a good bloodletting!") I gave a precise and standard definition of a cache in a previous email. It is defined functionally. You continue to be wrong in insisting that the contents of the cache can somehow make a cache not a cache. Yes a sack of nickles can be considered a cache if it functions to save you a trip back home to get a nickel. >Vista *does* work great (I know that runs counter to what PC says to >Mac and god only knows how they could be wrong). I'm eagerly awating >Windows 7. Considering your track record on other issues I will pass on this one. Vista is double plus good! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
Yes ...however, on some thinkpad sites given the very small footprint of the x31 there seems to have been some experience with overheating inasmuch as the oem hdd was 5400 and it was never designed to run 7200 ...I went with the 5400 also for price... That said, the laptop runs stuff faster than the desktop with 7200 and the laptop has a slower processor... -Original Message- From: Jeff Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:25 PM To: 'RLeeSimon' Subject: RE: better I've been using 7200 RPM Hitachi Deskstars in a couple different models of Latitudes and haven't had any issues with heat from the drives. > -Original Message- > From: RLeeSimon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:20 PM > To: 'Jeff Wright' > Subject: RE: better > > Laptop IBM x31 upgraded a while ago to: WD WD1200VE 120gb drive > 5400rpm 8mb cache ...chose this over 7200 because of possibility of > excessive heat... > > -Original Message- > From: Jeff Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:13 AM > Subject: Re: better > > > I will wager on hard drive rotational velocity and disk cache size. > The difference in performance between a 4200 RPM and a 5400 RPM > system, or 5400 > to 7200 RPM system, is significant. Most older drives have a 2 MB > cache. > > I'm using a circa 2001 Dell Latitude C600 P3-750 laptop (512 MB RAM > running > XP) at home with an upgraded 7200 RPM drive (8 MB cache) and it is > fast enough for my needs. I wouldn't use it with a slower drive in > it. > > > -Original Message- > > How come my IBM ThinkpadX31 PM1.4 2gb ram (but the same was true > > before I upgraded from 1gb ram) with exactly the same stuff running > > (except for lots of ibm stuff extra) runs and performs sooo much > > better than my Dell PIV2(w/intel speed boost) 1gb ram (max it will > > take) running the same but none of that ibm stuff? Neither has any > > viri or spy or other fections... > > > ** > * > ** > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy > ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ > ** > *** > ** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
> All memory of Netscape has been washed out of your brain? > > This is exactly what they did with browsers. Now all we got is IE and > variations on open-source projects. I've lost track. Who was suppsed to be owning the Internet now? Was it AOL as a part of Time Warner or Microsoft with MSN? I can't keep all the hysteria straight. Wait, let me check with the EU about how a bundled Windows Media Player is deveastating the media player industry. Yes, giving away useful things to consumers is just such a horrible crime. I'm going home and uninstalling Firefox right away to avoid being caught up in the coming dragnet.. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>Windows Defender is free but I don't know that it has had any impact >on similar types of malware protection. How will a free MS Suite wipe >out the competition? All memory of Netscape has been washed out of your brain? This is exactly what they did with browsers. Now all we got is IE and variations on open-source projects. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> Normally clearing out prefetch doesn't improve performance... the opposite. > But it does if there was corruption in that data... so it is a simple > thing to try. Prefetch will rebuild itself. I do understand that. I'm just not buying the claims made for Dr. Tom's Magical Prefetch Elixir and Baldness Cure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
> Windows Defender is free but I don't know that it has had any impact > on similar types of malware protection. How will a free MS Suite wipe > out the competition? Some free MS stuff is decent, other not so much. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
> The point is that they want to give it out for free, thereby putting > everyone else with such a product out of business. They call this > "netscaping" the competition. Boy you are thick. Are you sure that's not called "Firefoxing" of "Safari-ing" the competition? Maybe "iTuning" is a better term. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> That circuitous bit of English essentially says that Prefetch is a cache. > Maybe you should diagram the sentence? Who has the problem with the syntax here? Not me. > I did it. I did not need a stopwatch to see the difference. A computer > that the user hated to use instantly became normal. Improvement was > better than 10 to 1. Yes, *in this particular instance* where the prefetch folder was actually the problem *for a long boot time*, it worked. Get 10 more PCs at random, time the boot and app load times, clear the prefetch folder and time boot and app load times again. Let me know how that goes. > Of course by your logic a cache is not a cache and something working is > not proof that it is working. I get it. Next you'll be telling us how > great Vista works. By your logic *anything* is a cache, which now could include a burlap sack of nickels or Miley Cyrus and that something that worked once on a lark is obviously the answer to everything. (I'm picturing Steve Martin saying "You need a good bloodletting!") Vista *does* work great (I know that runs counter to what PC says to Mac and god only knows how they could be wrong). I'm eagerly awating Windows 7. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
Windows Defender is free but I don't know that it has had any impact on similar types of malware protection. How will a free MS Suite wipe out the competition? Richard P. > > The point is that they want to give it out for free, thereby putting > everyone else with such a product out of business. They call this > "netscaping" the competition. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
Normally clearing out prefetch doesn't improve performance... the opposite. But it does if there was corruption in that data... so it is a simple thing to try. Prefetch will rebuild itself. db Jeff Wright wrote: Of course it is a cache. Any data that the computer assembles and saves so it doesn't have to recreate it later is a cache. Cache is defined by function, not by content. By that definition, a Word document is a cache. The prefetch is a series of pointer files that *creates* a cache, but in and of itself is not a cache. Ed Bott explains it more clearly: "The Prefetch folder is not a cache - at least not in the sense that you normally think of when you use that term. This folder contains trace files and layout files that Windows uses in specific circumstances. Trace files describe the exact order in which segments of programs (executable files and dynamic link libraries, including those that make up Windows itself) load. Windows uses this information to launch Windows and Windows programs in the most efficient way possible. Layout files provide a list of files and directories in the order that they are accessed when you start your computer or run a program." http://www.edbott.com/weblog/archives/000619.html That distinction may not be important to you, but to me, understanding how and why things work is beneficial and helps to not lead you down the wrong path in search of a solution. I'm not going to leave out a very useful solution just because it offends your ideology. If that is the problem, clearing prefetch does work and does so dramatically. The penalty for clearing prefetch is minor, except that it offends the ideologs. It's only useful if, in fact, it is the problem. If you want to improve performance, then you don't want to clear a folder that will actually degrade performance further, however so slightly. You don't remove an appendix until it's actually problem. Ed explains further: "Cleaning out the Prefetch folder will not improve performance. I have proved this with a stopwatch repeatedly on multiple test systems, and documented the results in Windows XP Inside Out Second Edition." If I'm guilty of having an ideology on this, it's only one that believes in giving good advice, not perpetuating a tweaking myth. But, if you really want to clear the folder, be my guest. Just don't expect miracles. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>"They shouldn't be duplicating functionality that 3rd party software >companies produce. It's anti-trust!" The point is that they want to give it out for free, thereby putting everyone else with such a product out of business. They call this "netscaping" the competition. Boy you are thick. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
>Ed Bott explains it more clearly: >"The Prefetch folder is not a cache - at least not in the sense that >you normally think of when you use that term." That circuitous bit of English essentially says that Prefetch is a cache. Maybe you should diagram the sentence? >"Cleaning out the Prefetch folder will not improve performance. I have >proved this with a stopwatch repeatedly on multiple test systems, and >documented the results in Windows XP Inside Out Second Edition." I did it. I did not need a stopwatch to see the difference. A computer that the user hated to use instantly became normal. Improvement was better than 10 to 1. >If I'm guilty of having an ideology on this, it's only one that >believes in giving good advice, not perpetuating a tweaking myth. Of course by your logic a cache is not a cache and something working is not proof that it is working. I get it. Next you'll be telling us how great Vista works. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] home phone wires
Don't own a firearm! Just know about them. Stewart At 11:44 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote: Isn't that one of those nasty, evil, cop-killing, gang-banger shooting assault weapons? Do you mean to tell me you cling to your guns or religion Stewart? :-) Larry P.S. I'm (almost) sorry I only read cguys during the day . Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Network wiring
>The Switch is powered by an external 12v transformer, if that fails and >sends 110 down the thin 12volt carrying wire that little wire will >vaporize. Alas, not true. You won't vaporize either, but you will still be dead. Working out of doors is very different than indoors. If you have to ignore electrical codes to achieve your goals it is not a good sign. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Rural Broadband
Interesting story from AP describes a push to serve rural areas with broadband by delivering it over existing power lines. This may be just what the doctor ordered. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] home phone wires
Isn't that one of those nasty, evil, cop-killing, gang-banger shooting assault weapons? Do you mean to tell me you cling to your guns or religion Stewart? :-) Larry P.S. I'm (almost) sorry I only read cguys during the day . -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rev. Stewart Marshall Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:20 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] home phone wires Go with an AR-15 locally made and uses American ammo! :-) Stewart At 01:53 PM 11/18/2008, you wrote: > >That's the cheapest solution but that leaves me with no wires > >which means possible outage on a bad day... > >A box of MREs and an AK-47 should take care of that for you. > > >* >** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** >** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** >* Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
You forgot the last line. Wash it down the drain. Stewart At 11:41 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote: "They shouldn't be duplicating functionality that 3rd party software companies produce. It's anti-trust!" "Why can't they incorporate this functionality into the OS? This is why MS sucks!" Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Yawn. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Thanks to gamers, the desktop supercomputer arrives
> OK that makes perfect sense. It is far less expensive than the current crop > of supercomputers which weigh in at 7+ digits of price. > > using pretty much the same technology except for super cooling, I bet it is > water cooled though!!! > > Neat. Yeah, I actually geeked out for a minute on this. Tres' cool. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
> They will do it just so long as it takes to drive the competition out of > business. Then you will find it only available with a very expensive > subscription and they will probably use it to force you to buy Vista too. > > Looks like an anti-trust case to me. Can they really get away with this > without Bush/Cheney to protect them? "They shouldn't be duplicating functionality that 3rd party software companies produce. It's anti-trust!" "Why can't they incorporate this functionality into the OS? This is why MS sucks!" Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Yawn. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> Of course it is a cache. Any data that the computer assembles and saves > so it doesn't have to recreate it later is a cache. Cache is defined by > function, not by content. By that definition, a Word document is a cache. The prefetch is a series of pointer files that *creates* a cache, but in and of itself is not a cache. Ed Bott explains it more clearly: "The Prefetch folder is not a cache - at least not in the sense that you normally think of when you use that term. This folder contains trace files and layout files that Windows uses in specific circumstances. Trace files describe the exact order in which segments of programs (executable files and dynamic link libraries, including those that make up Windows itself) load. Windows uses this information to launch Windows and Windows programs in the most efficient way possible. Layout files provide a list of files and directories in the order that they are accessed when you start your computer or run a program." http://www.edbott.com/weblog/archives/000619.html That distinction may not be important to you, but to me, understanding how and why things work is beneficial and helps to not lead you down the wrong path in search of a solution. > I'm not going to leave out a very useful solution just because it offends > your ideology. If that is the problem, clearing prefetch does work and > does so dramatically. The penalty for clearing prefetch is minor, except > that it offends the ideologs. It's only useful if, in fact, it is the problem. If you want to improve performance, then you don't want to clear a folder that will actually degrade performance further, however so slightly. You don't remove an appendix until it's actually problem. Ed explains further: "Cleaning out the Prefetch folder will not improve performance. I have proved this with a stopwatch repeatedly on multiple test systems, and documented the results in Windows XP Inside Out Second Edition." If I'm guilty of having an ideology on this, it's only one that believes in giving good advice, not perpetuating a tweaking myth. But, if you really want to clear the folder, be my guest. Just don't expect miracles. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Network wiring
The Switch is powered by an external 12v transformer, if that fails and sends 110 down the thin 12volt carrying wire that little wire will vaporize. I would assume that 110 at high amperage would also toast a Cat5e cable. Its not the voltage that kills its the current. I snipped a live 110 wire in half (thought the circuit was dead) and the short caused by the tool vaporised part of the steel on the tool. I can imagine what it would do to a thin Cat5e wire. As far as the trench, code only requires the low voltage cable to be down 8"-12", I watched Comcast subcontractors install a line in my yard, it was high tech. One under paid ethnic worker with shovel spreading the soil apart, the other pushing the cable in the ground and stepping on the sod to close the wedge created by the shovel. Probably 6 inches deep at best. So get grey water pipe as was suggested (10cents afoot) and bury the pipe, run the cable through and you have a connection at minimal cost and you get some exercise using the latest high tech trenching device. Mike db wrote: No, my understanding is that the ground code is not directed at lightning strikes but at preventing your data cable from becoming the functional internal ground loop instantly carrying a LOT of current if one of the two normal ground paths of the separate power/ground sources become disabled by mishap ... The code is meant to create a failsafe non dangerous design for when things go wrong... My understanding is minimal... an electrician or electrical engineer would know the answer to this... db Tom Piwowar wrote: Technically you may be running afoul of electrical grounding building code when you do this if you are using a cable to connect electrically powered devices that are being powered from different breaker boxes/ grounds. So you may need to add isolators. What do those cost? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- *Mike Drabick HDH Construction Consultants, Inc 200 Harry S. Truman Parkway Suite 220 Annapolis, MD 21401 410-571-1100 410-571-1177 Fax* * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Any recommendations about PowerLine Ethernet?
>My questions are: does anyone have any experience with these devices >and do they work? Also, am I missing anything in my proposed setup? They work, but have proven unpopular. Other solutions have increased bandwidth more rapidly. You can have a problem if your house is on 2 electric phases and the locations you want to connect are on different phases. There are inexpensive bridge devices that can fix this when plugged into a 220v socket. Unfortunately, most people do not know enough about home electric wiring to deal with this. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer securit
>"Microsoft on Tuesday said it is changing its strategy for offering PC >antivirus software, with plans to discontinue its subscription-based >consumer security suite and instead offer individuals free software to >protect their PCs. They will do it just so long as it takes to drive the competition out of business. Then you will find it only available with a very expensive subscription and they will probably use it to force you to buy Vista too. Looks like an anti-trust case to me. Can they really get away with this without Bush/Cheney to protect them? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
>Prefetch isn't a cache. It's a pointer system to files on the hard drive of >frequently used apps. People familiar with the operation of Windows would >know this. Of course it is a cache. Any data that the computer assembles and saves so it doesn't have to recreate it later is a cache. Cache is defined by function, not by content. >Except that the OP wasn't having a 10 minute boot problem; s/he was having a >"slow" computer. A question about a non-specific slow computer with perhaps others on the list with similar issues. So I provided the whole list. Pardon me for not censoring. I'm not going to leave out a very useful solution just because it offends your ideology. If that is the problem, clearing prefetch does work and does so dramatically. The penalty for clearing prefetch is minor, except that it offends the ideologs. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Thanks to gamers, the desktop supercomputer arrives
I worked at Cray Research many moons ago and they were constructing multiple parallel processor computers. Doing what they did with this small computer only using massive cooling sinks and running refrigerant through the plates. They found the cooler you get the chips the better and faster they processed. Of course this was when a 286 was cutting edge and 386 was coming into prominence. Now with systems that have quad cores, parallel processing computers are coming to home systems. Stewart At 08:23 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote: OK that makes perfect sense. It is far less expensive than the current crop of supercomputers which weigh in at 7+ digits of price. using pretty much the same technology except for super cooling, I bet it is water cooled though!!! Neat. Stewart At 06:44 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote: It's not a gaming computer, but a small and a relatively inexpensive super computer based on gaming technology. > -Original Message- > Are we performing some extra special game function for this computer? > > I cannot see why anyone would want that. > > Reminds me of the ones that used to be built at Cray Research in the > early 90's. They were all multiple processor computers, super > cooled. (parallel I think) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Thanks to gamers, the desktop supercomputer arrives
OK that makes perfect sense. It is far less expensive than the current crop of supercomputers which weigh in at 7+ digits of price. using pretty much the same technology except for super cooling, I bet it is water cooled though!!! Neat. Stewart At 06:44 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote: It's not a gaming computer, but a small and a relatively inexpensive super computer based on gaming technology. > -Original Message- > Are we performing some extra special game function for this computer? > > I cannot see why anyone would want that. > > Reminds me of the ones that used to be built at Cray Research in the > early 90's. They were all multiple processor computers, super > cooled. (parallel I think) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] The right harddrive?
Although you have to hunt to find it stated, form factor is 3.5". No laptop / notebook that I'm aware of uses a 3.5" hard drive. The photo clearly looks like a 3.5" drive, but they should state it anyway. Fred Holmes At 07:30 AM 11/19/2008, Arnold Kee wrote: >Hello all: >Can someone help me confirm that this hard drive: >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136200 > > >Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s >Hard Drive - OEM >Is appropriate for my 2007 MacBook (2.0 Gig) ? >I don't know this stuff well enough, and don't want to make yet another >mistake. > >Thanks! Arnold * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] The right harddrive?
Here is a Mac-savvy place to shop the internal laptop disk drive (or at least see what they select, then compare prices at other places): http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/2.5-Notebook/ If you want an external drive, you will need to buy an external drive, either 2.5-inch or 3.5-inch that will connect to your laptop by Firewire or USB 2. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Arnold - No, that is a 3.5-inch drive. Your laptop needs a 2.5-inch SATA drive. The SATA interface is okay, but a 3.5-inch disk drive just won't fit in your laptop. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Hello all: Can someone help me confirm that this hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136200 Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM Is appropriate for my 2007 MacBook (2.0 Gig) ? I don't know this stuff well enough, and don't want to make yet another mistake. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Any recommendations about PowerLine Ethernet
I use a NetGear power ethernet adapter which works great for my needs but I don't know if you'd be happy transmitting video over it since mine tops out at around 22Mb per second. --- Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Chris Mollner wrote: >I am considering using PowerLine Ethernet Adapters to connect my TV and >Blu-ray player to my home network so they can access the Internet for >updates. > >The TV and Blu-Ray player are in the basement. I have an Airport Base >Station on the second floor connected to my cable modem. It appears >that I could use a Powerline 4-Port Ethernet Adapter in the basement and >a Powerline Ethernet Adapter connected on the second floor to connect >the devices to my home network. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] better
> I would go with the Mac Guy because the Mac Guy has also read all the > conflicting information on prefetch so he therefore systematically > tested this one. A PC that was taking over 10 minutes to start up was turned > into a peppy computer by simply clearing out this prefetch folder. > Nothing else was done to this PC. QED. Except that the OP wasn't having a 10 minute boot problem; s/he was having a "slow" computer. Giving this advice is akin to advising someone to change the radio station in a sluggish car with bad gas. There's no real harm, but it doesn't address the issue causing the performance problem and you might get lucky with the timing of the advice. Correlation doesn't equal causation. Now, you'll have someone changing the radio station every time they perceive sluggish acceleration. Hmmm, jazz didn't help, maybe if I replace the radio > Most people familiar with the operation of computers know that cache > files can and do become corrupted. Corrupt caches do just the opposite > of what they were intended to do. Prefetch isn't a cache. It's a pointer system to files on the hard drive of frequently used apps. People familiar with the operation of Windows would know this. > Also the Mac Guy did not say to "periodically clean out that folder", > but to clean it out in response to a specific performance problem. Again, your advice was for a problem the OP didn't have. Prefetch *only* is used for faster application launching, not general performance. Cleaning up the hard drive and defragging it would be better advice. I recommend using JKdefrag for defragging. http://www.kessels.com/Jkdefrag/ > Also consider that if Russinovich were really as smart as you say, he > would be working for Apple. He isn't so he ain't. Using that criteria, he's obviously much smarter than I originally thought. He's only the brains behind Systernals; nothing special. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] The right harddrive?
Arnold - No, that is a 3.5-inch drive. Your laptop needs a 2.5-inch SATA drive. The SATA interface is okay, but a 3.5-inch disk drive just won't fit in your laptop. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Hello all: Can someone help me confirm that this hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136200 Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM Is appropriate for my 2007 MacBook (2.0 Gig) ? I don't know this stuff well enough, and don't want to make yet another mistake. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Thanks to gamers, the desktop supercomputer arrives
It's not a gaming computer, but a small and a relatively inexpensive super computer based on gaming technology. > -Original Message- > Are we performing some extra special game function for this computer? > > I cannot see why anyone would want that. > > Reminds me of the ones that used to be built at Cray Research in the > early 90's. They were all multiple processor computers, super > cooled. (parallel I think) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] The right harddrive?
Hello all: Can someone help me confirm that this hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136200 Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM Is appropriate for my 2007 MacBook (2.0 Gig) ? I don't know this stuff well enough, and don't want to make yet another mistake. Thanks! Arnold * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] news fyi: "Microsoft to offer free consumer security suite"
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Andy Gallant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Code-named Morro, the new offering will be available in the second half of > 2009 and will protect against viruses, spyware, rootkits, and Trojans, the > company said Wow, sounds great! I think I will hold my breath and uninstall all similar software for the next year (or two if this is a typical Microsoft schedule). -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=34091576500&ref=mf * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
