Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Charles Ballinger wrote: Any except the gov't hospital. What government hospital are you talking about? I take it that you are not a veteran and no nothing about the VA. The VA is the biggest hospital system in the world and provides very good care for the less money than any other hospital in the US. The VA is not constrained by the latest medicaid/medicare bill that prevents bulk bidding for medicines. As a consequence the VA pays the least amount for medicine of any hospital in the US. The VA is the most computerized and has the most advanced medical software of any hospital in the world. The VA was using bar code scanners to scan patients and pass meds 10 years ago. This makes it virtually impossible to have a medication error. Doctors do not hand write orders at the VA. All orders have do be entered into a computer. Hand written orders are the number one reason for medication mistakes . They kill some where in the neighborhood of 100,000 people per year in the us. All hospital in this country have problems (including the VA), but please don't knock the best run hospital system in the country (which happens to be government run) to private hospitals. By the way the VA is not Walter Reed which is a army hospital for active duty soldiers. And one of Walter Reed's biggest problem's came about because they privatized their janitorial staff with a subsidiary of Haliburton. For profit and nonprofit are equal except if you're a high risk OB/ sick mother case and would prefer the mother be saved by sacrificing the baby should it come to that. In that case you'd want to avoid certain religious affiliated hospitals. On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? ** ** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: ComputerGuys-L- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** ** * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived ** ** Mark Corrigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
...no nothing...? I take it you mean KNOW nothing? :) On Sunday 30 September 2007 10:57, Mark Corrigan wrote: On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Charles Ballinger wrote: Any except the gov't hospital. What government hospital are you talking about? I take it that you are not a veteran and no nothing about the VA. The VA is the --- biggest hospital system in the world and provides very good care for the less money than any other hospital in the US. The VA is not constrained by the latest medicaid/medicare bill that prevents bulk bidding for medicines. As a consequence the VA pays the least amount for medicine of any hospital in the US. The VA is the most computerized and has the most advanced medical software of any hospital in the world. The VA was using bar code scanners to scan patients and pass meds 10 years ago. This makes it virtually impossible to have a medication error. Doctors do not hand write orders at the VA. All orders have do be entered into a computer. Hand written orders are the number one reason for medication mistakes . They kill some where in the neighborhood of 100,000 people per year in the us. All hospital in this country have problems (including the VA), but please don't knock the best run hospital system in the country (which happens to be government run) to private hospitals. By the way the VA is not Walter Reed which is a army hospital for active duty soldiers. And one of Walter Reed's biggest problem's came about because they privatized their janitorial staff with a subsidiary of Haliburton. For profit and nonprofit are equal except if you're a high risk OB/ sick mother case and would prefer the mother be saved by sacrificing the baby should it come to that. In that case you'd want to avoid certain religious affiliated hospitals. On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? ** ** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: ComputerGuys-L- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** ** * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived ** ** Mark Corrigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
You took wrong Mark. I'm a veteran and I know the VA system. Am I to guess you're somehow affiliated with the VA and took exception? I didn't say one couldn't get good care at a VA. I said, given a choice I'd prefer a non-gov't run hospital, except depending on diagnosis. Lots of people seek out care for testicular cancer at Indiana University (Lance Armstrong is a famous one), but they don't go there because its IU. They go to IU because thats where they find Larry Einhorn. The points you mentioned below all relate to efficiency. I answered Tom's question based on my perception of quality of care. A state-run med school affiliated hospital or practice would not be my first choice for routine care. Students need practice and learning opportunities, but I'm under no obligation to provide it personally. Its not relevant that any given VA facility, or the VA on whole while may or may not be the best run hospital system in the country. That the residents managing pt care are supported with barcoded systems, EMRs, and an efficiently purchased formulary is also not relevant to my care decisions. I don't want a resident front-lining my care (especially at the beginning of the year) no matter how efficient the system is said to be. Interestingly, all that most advanced medical software is a current topic of discussion in the churning swirl of medical education. A growing percentage of students is being found unable to compose a patient summary without using the system. Is medical education training techs to follow drop-down lists and history forms? Granted, care directed using a validated system strictly followed will probably reduce malpractice risk. It will also help make appt's quicker so more pts can be seen in a day to help make up for lower reimbursements. But, the argument goes, is that what we want from a physician? I seem to think more and more we do, at least until we get what we're asking for. I just hope the developers have the newest CASE tools and use some of that artificial intelligence and fuzzy logic to build the systems. cb On Sep 30, 2007, at 10:57 AM, Mark Corrigan wrote: On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Charles Ballinger wrote: Any except the gov't hospital. What government hospital are you talking about? I take it that you are not a veteran and no nothing about the VA. The VA is the biggest hospital system in the world and provides very good care for the less money than any other hospital in the US. The VA is not constrained by the latest medicaid/medicare bill that prevents bulk bidding for medicines. As a consequence the VA pays the least amount for medicine of any hospital in the US. The VA is the most computerized and has the most advanced medical software of any hospital in the world. The VA was using bar code scanners to scan patients and pass meds 10 years ago. This makes it virtually impossible to have a medication error. Doctors do not hand write orders at the VA. All orders have do be entered into a computer. Hand written orders are the number one reason for medication mistakes . They kill some where in the neighborhood of 100,000 people per year in the us. All hospital in this country have problems (including the VA), but please don't knock the best run hospital system in the country (which happens to be government run) to private hospitals. By the way the VA is not Walter Reed which is a army hospital for active duty soldiers. And one of Walter Reed's biggest problem's came about because they privatized their janitorial staff with a subsidiary of Haliburton. For profit and nonprofit are equal except if you're a high risk OB/ sick mother case and would prefer the mother be saved by sacrificing the baby should it come to that. In that case you'd want to avoid certain religious affiliated hospitals. On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? * *** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: ComputerGuys-L- [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *** * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header
[CGUYS] Best apples (was Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
If you ever had a Cortland apple from upper NY state, you would know which is the best. :-) Mike John Duncan Yoyo wrote: No the vote on apple split three ways. Fuji, Granny Smith and Gravenstein with a few outliers for Winter Banana, Macoun and McIntosh On 9/26/07, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or maybe the last guy with a question regarding apple stuff was refused an answer so everyone gave up. Mike On 9/26/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Best apples (was Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
The grapples are not bread to taste like a grape, but are soaked in a Concord grape solution to achieve the grape flavor. Stewart At 01:23 PM 9/27/2007, you wrote: On the Splendid Table table episode last week they talked to an apple breeding botantist. He said they released a variety that tastes like cherries when fully ripe. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Winter Banana? Really? Where can you get them? I can buy Grimes Golden, Black Twig, York, Winesap, etc. from Heyser Farms, but they've never had Winter Banana. Do you have a source? --Constance P.S.: My husband works at an Apple retailer. I can ask him about some specialized technical Mac questions that are difficult to answer otherwise, and relay the answers to the list. No the vote on apple split three ways. Fuji, Granny Smith and Gravenstein with a few outliers for Winter Banana, Macoun and McIntosh On 9/26/07, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or maybe the last guy with a question regarding apple stuff was refused an answer so everyone gave up. Mike On 9/26/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Best apples (was Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
I bought an apple called a Grapple that smelled and tasted very grape like last year. It came in a plastic box of four and smelled wonderful. I saw it at Wegmans and either Giant or Safeway. On 9/27/07, Paul Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the Splendid Table table episode last week they talked to an apple breeding botantist. He said they released a variety that tastes like cherries when fully ripe. - Original Message From: b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:04:25 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Best apples (was Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING If you ever had a Cortland apple from upper NY state, you would know which is the best. :-) Northern Spy--not only perfect for my yummy apple pies--it has the best name. Gotta go back to canning my apples now... Betty * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
A happy employee is worth a ton of money! They help recruit business. I know this as it is the same or similar model Churches use to grow. The idea that the government should respond to social problems was a product of the Reformation, part of the process of sidelining the church. Then the neo-cons decided that big business was a better substitute for big religion. Events have amply demonstrated that business is not suited to the task. Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
The one my doctor prefers to associate with. What is sometimes overlooked is that Doctor preference can also be an indicator of what are the better hospitals. If you have a family physician and he only chooses to associate with one particular hospital there must be a reason. Other than that I would usually prefer the religious associated hospital. Oh do not blame the reformation for the disassociating of the church from social service. It simply advocated the separation of Church and government. (Do you really want the Pope appointing governmental leaders?) The movement toward governmental oversight of social problems and welfare was a growth of government in the late 1800's. Many church movements spawned by the reformation dedicated themselves toward social improvement and involvement including John Wesley (Methodism.) The reformation has been blamed for a lot of our social ills, but we only have ourselves to blame. Resettlement of Refugees after WW2? Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services. Orphanages? Catholic Church in the US, Anglican church in Canada. Schools? Largest parochial school systems in US, (Also oldest) Catholics and Lutherans. The government in the guise of trying to protect us has taken over many of these programs by increasing regulation that forces out private and parochial institutions. It is not just Neo-Cons that propose this. It is also those who crave wealth. Many of the current crop of Democrats would not have the wealth they do without Big Business and its benefits. Stewart At 10:05 AM 9/26/2007, you wrote: The idea that the government should respond to social problems was a product of the Reformation, part of the process of sidelining the church. Then the neo-cons decided that big business was a better substitute for big religion. Events have amply demonstrated that business is not suited to the task. Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Sometimes hospitals also restrict how many doctors they will allow privileges as well. Some very good family practice doctors have no privileges at all, as most anything going on in a hospital involves a specialist. On Sep 26, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: What is sometimes overlooked is that Doctor preference can also be an indicator of what are the better hospitals. If you have a family physician and he only chooses to associate with one particular hospital there must be a reason. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Adding to Matthew's comments: The established trend is to use hospitalists. Your doc gets some feedback, etc on your progress, but your inpatient care is directed and managed by the hospital's W-2 employed hospitalist. I'd not call a hospitalist a specialist other than as defined contractually. Another reason your doc may only have privileges at one hospital, besides being an employee of that hospital, is that its often required that the majority of your admissions (51%?) must go to the hospital offering you admissions privileges (remember the hospitalist will take over care for your pt upon admission). A large hospital system owned by a 'religious-charitable organization does this.. so its not a profit/nonprofit split. We left Kansas some time ago. On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Matthew Taylor wrote: Sometimes hospitals also restrict how many doctors they will allow privileges as well. Some very good family practice doctors have no privileges at all, as most anything going on in a hospital involves a specialist. On Sep 26, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: What is sometimes overlooked is that Doctor preference can also be an indicator of what are the better hospitals. If you have a family physician and he only chooses to associate with one particular hospital there must be a reason. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
You should also be aware that Catholic hospitals will not provide emergency contraception in case of rape, or--for that matter--any contraception at all. Provision of contraception in areas where few providers are available continues to be a problem, and not just in the case of Catholic hospitals. For example, some pharmacists refuse, on religious grounds, to fill prescriptions for birth control pills, and some state laws support their refusal. This is definitely a problem if you're a woman in a small rural town and the next-closest drug store is 100 miles away. --Constance Any except the gov't hospital. For profit and nonprofit are equal except if you're a high risk OB/ sick mother case and would prefer the mother be saved by sacrificing the baby should it come to that. In that case you'd want to avoid certain religious affiliated hospitals. On Sep 26, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] OT WARNING!!!! - Tom is right
On Sep 26, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. Tom is correct by my experience. I was deep into developing apps on OS/2 for years. Unix before that. When IBM quieted OS/2 a friend suggested I follow the world and install NT4. I did and computer work immediately ceased being a focus in my life. Email was about it for a long time. Sometime in mid 2000, with much angst, I bought my first Mac.. the redesigned white dual-USB iBook, a 500 MHz G3 that is still going strong. I bought it for the new OSX knowing it had *nix in there somewhere. I'd long ago lost most of my *nix skills but was looking forward to having a 'real' OS again. Also knowing several mac users who always seemed quite content helped me take the leap even though I was warned by several Windows people that I'd never be able to exchange a file with them again and was paying more only to be constantly plagued by pox. Moving ahead seven years... I'm working from our household's third Mac, a MacBook Pro, and I haven't looked back nor missed a thing (except for a nifty grocery list app I liked back when: www.tali.com/ slm/) Interesting things have also happened while drinking Apple's KoolAid. When I sit down and open my computer my focus is on my work. To me, my computer 'disappears'. I don't know if this is a unique experience, but I remember that futzing with computer things was a big part of my work. Not that it wasn't enjoyable at the time, but now I enjoy futz directly with my work. Put another way, my work gets most of the mind-share now. The biggest bonus is that I much prefer what I do now over the computer focused stuff I did before. Other things came up when my computer, or the OS etc, left the forefront. This isn't all Mac exclusive or dependent I think. But for me, it did. And I'm glad. ... back to 'work'. Charles * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? Depends on the government agency. If it is a hospital run by the Federal Emergency Management Agency or the Dept. of Homeland Security, I would choose either a religious or a for-profit hospital. If it is a teaching hospital run by a state university, I would choose the government agency. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
What would be a real-world example of a government-run hospital, aside from the VA, maybe Childrens or NIH? Can't think of any in D.C. area, Boston area, Baltimore or otherwise, unless memory is failing me, which could always be the case. Randall - Original Message - From: Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING A happy employee is worth a ton of money! They help recruit business. I know this as it is the same or similar model Churches use to grow. The idea that the government should respond to social problems was a product of the Reformation, part of the process of sidelining the church. Then the neo-cons decided that big business was a better substitute for big religion. Events have amply demonstrated that business is not suited to the task. Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date: 9/25/2007 8:02 AM * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Teaching hospitals are fine.. especially if you're stuck with some 'zebra' of a problem. Although every July and August, given a choice, I'd lean toward the non-teaching, non-govt places. On Sep 26, 2007, at 4:29 PM, Robert wrote: Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? Depends on the government agency. If it is a hospital run by the Federal Emergency Management Agency or the Dept. of Homeland Security, I would choose either a religious or a for-profit hospital. If it is a teaching hospital run by a state university, I would choose the government agency. ** ** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: ComputerGuys-L- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** ** * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived ** ** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Supposedly the VA hospitals have improved greatly over their rather dismal past; however still hear tales of woe from a few vets who use the one in D.C., not to mention the various stories that broke last year about some VA or other vet facilities. Randall - Original Message - From: Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING Tom Piwowar wrote: Given the choice of three hospitals and knowing only that one was run by a government agency, one was run by a for-profit corporation, and one was run by a religious-charitable organization, which would your choose? Depends on the government agency. If it is a hospital run by the Federal Emergency Management Agency or the Dept. of Homeland Security, I would choose either a religious or a for-profit hospital. If it is a teaching hospital run by a state university, I would choose the government agency. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date: 9/25/2007 8:02 AM * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Or maybe the last guy with a question regarding apple stuff was refused an answer so everyone gave up. Mike On 9/26/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
No the vote on apple split three ways. Fuji, Granny Smith and Gravenstein with a few outliers for Winter Banana, Macoun and McIntosh On 9/26/07, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or maybe the last guy with a question regarding apple stuff was refused an answer so everyone gave up. Mike On 9/26/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Silly me I voted for gala. Mike On 9/26/07, John Duncan Yoyo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No the vote on apple split three ways. Fuji, Granny Smith and Gravenstein with a few outliers for Winter Banana, Macoun and McIntosh On 9/26/07, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or maybe the last guy with a question regarding apple stuff was refused an answer so everyone gave up. Mike On 9/26/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Imagine if they had gone with Gravenstein. So, how do you like your new Gravenstein? Would undoubtedly have been shortened to something like Grave, as in nice Grave you've got there! Randall - Original Message - From: John Duncan Yoyo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@listserv.aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING No the vote on apple split three ways. Fuji, Granny Smith and Gravenstein with a few outliers for Winter Banana, Macoun and McIntosh On 9/26/07, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or maybe the last guy with a question regarding apple stuff was refused an answer so everyone gave up. Mike On 9/26/07, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think too many list members have switched to OS X. Now they don't have any computer problems to gripe about. The rest of you need to get to work -- install Vista or some other harebrained piece of software so we can ponder the consequences. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1030 - Release Date: 9/25/2007 8:02 AM * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Like him, hate him, think him a loon or a wise man, but Ron Paul is definitely not cut from the same cloth as the other candidates for President. On Sep 24, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Randy wrote: Someone for real, fundamental change wouldn't run for President * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
[CGUYS] Bingo! - you hit on the fundamental problem of humanity, and its implied solution (was Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!)
of the question. And in terms of that source of power, what is the real difference between computers and human beings? BTW, if anyone might possibly be interested, the above analysis comes from a theory I've recently developed: Why Things Are As They Are.and how they could be otherwise. This, in turn, rests, in part, on a slightly earlier theory: Theory of Thinking, which, in turn is basically an elaboration of the implications of a theory about the roles and relationship between Questions and Answers - with all of this being various elaborations on one simple insight into one simple idea or concept; that of The Question and the asking of questions in search of answers. Randall - Original Message - From: b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING Constance Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: It's not just health care. As I see it, the underlying question is: do we, as citizens, want a system in which the highest ethical value is making more money, down to the last penny, no matter what else is lost in the process? Especially when some of the players who are doing the down to the last penny strategy already have vast resources and don't have to act like turn-of-the-century coal barons in order to survive and prosper. Quite apart from aesthetics (like, would you rather have a downtown in your small town or deserted storefronts and a Wal-Mart on the edge of town), there are real drawbacks for everyone in the down to the last penny strategy... Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is for everybody, more or less. Can't do that if lots of people are sick. The rich are better off, too, when everybody is healthy. Trouble is that too many people--rich, middle class and poor--are too shortsighted/greedy/ignorant to figure that out. Thus they don't plan ahead and consider future consequences--truly penny-wise and pound-foolish. Google posted Robert Greenwald's video, Walmart - High Cost of Low Price, http://snipurl.com/1r6tc. It's a free download. Is there a video featuring a better-run company like Costco--not including 'Idiocracy' or 'Employee of the Month' [although Mike Judge's Idiocracy was funny]? There are plenty of companies that have management with consciences, just not Walmart--one of the most expensive places to shop. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1025 - Release Date: 9/23/2007 1:53 PM * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Only recently have I begun to appreciate or even watch or pay attention to religious figures as sources of great insight and wisdom; particularly these mega preachers. Saw TJ Jakes (may have his initials wrong) on a few shows, Dr. Phil yesterday, most recently. Also, recent shows of Joel Osteen (Sundays, on Fox), which I just stumbled on by accident. And other things, in various religions, that are simply deeply profound wisdom. Just tonight, I did the introductory class for a course I've devised on mental health recovery, and mentioned some of these very inspirational messages and messengers, and that if we continue to have this course, I would like and plan to bring in videos or books of some of these people or even live presenters (though probably not these folks :)). I can see why people are so drawn to these meg-preachers, and its not just because they are offering false hopes or dreams, a la some of the more notorious tv preachers in the past, like Jim and Tammy, etc. I think people are drawn to people like Osteen because they sense that is saying something that is true, even profound, and potentially of profound significance for their lives. The irony is that I am as much of a nonbeliever as one can be, and can probably out Hitchens or out Dawkins some of my critical analysis of religion and how it functions in the world. But I am only recently coming to see that there is a deeper, purely secular wisdom that these religions and religious figures (including Jesus, and I'm a non-believing Jew) say and said, even many millenia ago, that is still incredibly relevant as can be to our present situation. Now, since I had a secular epiphany some 8 months ago, I finally realize that amazing learning, insight and wisdom is to be found all around us and that anything or anyone can be a great teacher, starting, first and foremost, with young children, who are the most creative, most imaginative persons on the planet and the best questioners. And the questions, imagination and creativity are not all unrelated, either! Randall - Original Message - From: Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING On that I see no disagreement. A happy employee is worth a ton of money! They help recruit business. I know this as it is the same or similar model Churches use to grow. Happy members pull other newer members in though the door thereby increasing numbers. How to keep them happy plus make your profit is the key to growing a good business. Stewart At 09:29 PM 9/24/2007, you wrote: About a year ago NPR interviewed the president of Costco and I was very impressed with his sense of responsibility. He insisted that by providing better conditions he could attract better employees and reduce turnover. He said that the incresed productivity would pay for the better conditions. He was specificially critical of the WalMart methods. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1025 - Release Date: 9/23/2007 1:53 PM * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
I don't know that much about him, though he seems intriguing, from what the little I have heard. I am certainly troubled by the way the process essentially shuts someone like him out from real contention in many ways; a point made, ironically, by the Iranian president on Charlie Rose last night. That is, out a country of 300 million, even 4 years out, the number of American citizens with any realistic chance of becoming the next president was probably well under 100 (counting those with the interest, desire, name recognition, financial resources, minimal qualifications, etc.) By 2 years out, this number was down to maybe 20, max. By now, it's down to, what, maybe 2 or 2 in each party - maybe 5 persons with any real chance? But again, all of this is OUR fault; for acquiescing to the existing system and state of affairs, and for so long. And I would include in this the failure to question institutions like the Presidency over the last 231 years, since we declared independence. The institution, which Bush has given us the great gift of helping show, if we'd only see this, is an obsolete anachronism in a modern world; one which confers infinitely more power and consequentiality onto any modern occupant (not just Bush) than the King of England we claimed to have revolted against because we didn't want to live under such a powerful personage. That we accept all of this and don't even think to question, that we can question any of this, is reflection of our disempowerment and our distorted perception that the people who gave us this government were not only the smartest people of their time, but were effectively deities or messagers of deities or a religion or other absolute truth; such that the system they gave us 230 plus years ago would also be the best possible system for all time, no matter how much things change. If Paul is really for change then he should probably try to run as an independent, perhaps in coalition with one or some others; maybe even establish a new movement or even party. If I were him, I would go directly to the people, over the heads of the mainstream media and political structure. But if he is holding himself out (or being taken) as yet another Messiah, another white knight, then that is a pseudo answer. The real answer is for a leader to, as Bill Bradley says, reflect back on the people, to show and inspire them and us to empower ourselves to bring about real change, including making whatever changes are needed. Always looking for this or that white knight who we desperately hope has the answers we can't come up with ourselves; hoping they will make better all that the past white knight-now-turned-Demon-Bush-Cheney ended up making such a mess of. The answer isn't to find one white knight to clean up the mess of another, fallen one. The real answer is for us to stop relying on white nights, experts, gurus, religions, ideologies, parties, political leaders, religious leaders, teachers, etc. and start realizing that we have the capacity to come up with our own answers, and start doing so. Randall - Original Message - From: Matthew Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Fw: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING Like him, hate him, think him a loon or a wise man, but Ron Paul is definitely not cut from the same cloth as the other candidates for President. On Sep 24, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Randy wrote: Someone for real, fundamental change wouldn't run for President * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1025 - Release Date: 9/23/2007 1:53 PM * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
It's not just health care. As I see it, the underlying question is: do we, as citizens, want a system in which the highest ethical value is making more money, down to the last penny, no matter what else is lost in the process? Especially when some of the players who are doing the down to the last penny strategy already have vast resources and don't have to act like turn-of-the-century coal barons in order to survive and prosper. Quite apart from aesthetics (like, would you rather have a downtown in your small town or deserted storefronts and a Wal-Mart on the edge of town), there are real drawbacks for everyone in the down to the last penny strategy. For example, if you're a big-box store that doesn't pay its employees enough for medical care, doesn't include any medical insurance in the pay package, and doesn't allow employees to stay home when they are sick (all common practices), you're a major incubator site if someone walks into the store with pandemic flu, active drug-resistant TB, or bird flu (mutated for human-to-human transmission). In such a case, do you really think that the flu or the TB will stop at the end of the Wal-Mart parking lot? Especially if the local public health infrastructure is starved for funds because Wal-Mart and other major property owners have not been paying taxes. I might add in passing that, in most of human history, the ownership of large amounts of property--especially real estate--usually goes with large obligations. If Wal-Mart were in classical Greece, for example, they would be expected to pay for producing Euripides' latest play at the festival of Dionysus and buy a ship for the navy. This wasn't written law, but the penalties in loss of community prestige and influence--if they didn't pony up--were extreme. And the owners would be legally required to furnish horses, armor, and swords, and to be in the front lines if their city-state was at war with anybody. I wonder what would happen if Wal-Mart's major shareholders and corporate officers had to perform the equivalent functions today. They might have to underwrite part of Sundance film festival; build ships for the U.S. Navy; and personally go to Iraq as tank commanders in tanks they bought themselves (since, of course, a mounted, armored knight was the ancient and medieval equivalent of a tank). I'll bet if you gave the major shareholders of WalMart (and similar companies) the choice between going to Iraq and driving a tank and building (for example) nuclear submarines, in the classical Greek pattern--and paying taxes, slightly higher wages, and minimal medical insurance--they would unhesitatingly choose the latter. --Constance Warner * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Constance, Just addressing your one point below: If you recall, our Supreme Court ruled that a State could use its power of eminent domain to wrest real property from a citizen, then give that real property to a corporation, if in so doing, they would get more tax revenue from the corporation than from the rightful owner of the real property. So your question has already been answered in the affirmative by the highest court in the land. This is another proof, and an extremely important one, that our government is gradually being changed from a Republic (note that we never did have a Democracy) into a Fascist State. SNIP As I see it, the underlying question is: do we, as citizens, want a system in which the highest ethical value is making more money, down to the last penny, no matter what else is lost in the process? SNIP * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
I don't quite see what the Supreme Court decision about eminent domain has to do with what WalMart does. WalMart often comes into a community, in spite of the community's protests, and does whatever Wal-Mart management wants: build stores, abandon stores, demand tax concessions, wreck downtowns. And don't get me started on the depredations of private developers around here; for example, we're losing the best architecture book store in town, to a New York developer who boasts of being a special patron of architects. That's only one case among many I could cite. The tide is not to public uses of assets; it's all one-way, into the hands of the highest bidders in the private sector. So far as I know, the Supreme Court decision had no part in any of these transactions. The private developers, and the big box stores, have more than enough power to do whatever they want. As to the Supreme Court decision on eminent domain: some local governments have already passed revised eminent domain laws that will make the Supreme Court decision moot. It's quite a popular issue to get elected on, and a lot of politicians are taking full advantage of it to make political hay. More power to them, in my opinion: that particular Supreme Court decision is on its way to that great law office in the sky, in part because of revised local laws, and in part because the Supreme Court actually does pay some attention to public opinion, when a decision like that causes a firestorm of projects. I have my doubts about the current administration, in part because it gives too much weight, and too many favors, to large property holders like Wal-Mart. --Constance If you recall, our Supreme Court ruled that a State could use its power of eminent domain to wrest real property from a citizen, then give that real property to a corporation, if in so doing, they would get more tax revenue from the corporation than from the rightful owner of the real property. So your question has already been answered in the affirmative by the highest court in the land. This is another proof, and an extremely important one, that our government is gradually being changed from a Republic (note that we never did have a Democracy) into a Fascist State. SNIP As I see it, the underlying question is: do we, as citizens, want a system in which the highest ethical value is making more money, down to the last penny, no matter what else is lost in the process? SNIP * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
First off. Anyone who tries to compete against Walmart head to head is an idiot. Walmart is the largest grocer in town, but I still shop two smaller local stores because 1.) They carry things Walmart does not. 2.) I like their meat selections and quality better! I do not buy everything at Walmart simply because they do not carry everything and I can beat them at other stores on items. They are not a be all to end all. Also note. Check out how much cash, I.E. Grants the local stores hand out each year!!! You will be surprised. They hand out a lot of cash to different causes and activities and they tend not to discriminate about it either! In our community we can always trust Walmart to allow us to solicit in front of their store. Can't be said about all. When I lived in Wisconsin, there was a local medical outfit owned and run by the doctors (Minimum pay for the Doctors was over $200,00 per year 7 years ago.) This was a lot larger in income than the Walmart store. They were tax exempt due to state law. They started buying Doctors clinics throughout the northern part of the state and when they bought them, they immediately became tax exempt! Each community w0ould have a meeting with the local clinic and arrange a payment to take the place of taxes due on the property (Wisconsins Property Taxes are quite heavty.) One year the city did not like the amount that was proposed by the local clinic (The main one which generated 8 figures of income a year.) So when it came time for some roads to be redone around the clinic the city declared it had no money and those improvements would have to be put on the back burner. The clinic reopened their talks and a newer higher amount was made to the city in lieu of property taxes. By the way not very Walmart in every location is not paying taxes. In many locations they pay their fair share of property taxes. Only in cases where they negotiated to locate a Walmart and get an abatement of Taxes are they exempt and many of those are for a limited time only. After so many years they must pay taxes and pay them based on their current value not the original value. Stewart At 11:27 AM 9/24/2007, you wrote: It's not just health care. As I see it, the underlying question is: do we, as citizens, want a system in which the highest ethical value is making more money, down to the last penny, no matter what else is lost in the process? Especially when some of the players who are doing the down to the last penny strategy already have vast resources and don't have to act like turn-of-the-century coal barons in order to survive and prosper. Quite apart from aesthetics (like, would you rather have a downtown in your small town or deserted storefronts and a Wal-Mart on the edge of town), there are real drawbacks for everyone in the down to the last penny strategy. For example, if you're a big-box store that doesn't pay its employees enough for medical care, doesn't include any medical insurance in the pay package, and doesn't allow employees to stay home when they are sick (all common practices), you're a major incubator site if someone walks into the store with pandemic flu, active drug-resistant TB, or bird flu (mutated for human-to-human transmission). In such a case, do you really think that the flu or the TB will stop at the end of the Wal-Mart parking lot? Especially if the local public health infrastructure is starved for funds because Wal-Mart and other major property owners have not been paying taxes. I might add in passing that, in most of human history, the ownership of large amounts of property--especially real estate--usually goes with large obligations. If Wal-Mart were in classical Greece, for example, they would be expected to pay for producing Euripides' latest play at the festival of Dionysus and buy a ship for the navy. This wasn't written law, but the penalties in loss of community prestige and influence--if they didn't pony up--were extreme. And the owners would be legally required to furnish horses, armor, and swords, and to be in the front lines if their city-state was at war with anybody. I wonder what would happen if Wal-Mart's major shareholders and corporate officers had to perform the equivalent functions today. They might have to underwrite part of Sundance film festival; build ships for the U.S. Navy; and personally go to Iraq as tank commanders in tanks they bought themselves (since, of course, a mounted, armored knight was the ancient and medieval equivalent of a tank). I'll bet if you gave the major shareholders of WalMart (and similar companies) the choice between going to Iraq and driving a tank and building (for example) nuclear submarines, in the classical Greek pattern--and paying taxes, slightly higher wages, and minimal medical insurance--they would unhesitatingly choose the latter. --Constance Warner *
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Constance Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: It's not just health care. As I see it, the underlying question is: do we, as citizens, want a system in which the highest ethical value is making more money, down to the last penny, no matter what else is lost in the process? Especially when some of the players who are doing the down to the last penny strategy already have vast resources and don't have to act like turn-of-the-century coal barons in order to survive and prosper. Quite apart from aesthetics (like, would you rather have a downtown in your small town or deserted storefronts and a Wal-Mart on the edge of town), there are real drawbacks for everyone in the down to the last penny strategy... Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is for everybody, more or less. Can't do that if lots of people are sick. The rich are better off, too, when everybody is healthy. Trouble is that too many people--rich, middle class and poor--are too shortsighted/greedy/ignorant to figure that out. Thus they don't plan ahead and consider future consequences--truly penny-wise and pound-foolish. Google posted Robert Greenwald's video, Walmart - High Cost of Low Price, http://snipurl.com/1r6tc. It's a free download. Is there a video featuring a better-run company like Costco--not including 'Idiocracy' or 'Employee of the Month' [although Mike Judge's Idiocracy was funny]? There are plenty of companies that have management with consciences, just not Walmart--one of the most expensive places to shop. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
Is there a video featuring a better-run company like Costco--not including 'Idiocracy' or 'Employee of the Month' [although Mike Judge's Idiocracy was funny]? There are plenty of companies that have management with consciences, just not Walmart--one of the most expensive places to shop. About a year ago NPR interviewed the president of Costco and I was very impressed with his sense of responsibility. He insisted that by providing better conditions he could attract better employees and reduce turnover. He said that the incresed productivity would pay for the better conditions. He was specificially critical of the WalMart methods. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
On that I see no disagreement. A happy employee is worth a ton of money! They help recruit business. I know this as it is the same or similar model Churches use to grow. Happy members pull other newer members in though the door thereby increasing numbers. How to keep them happy plus make your profit is the key to growing a good business. Stewart At 09:29 PM 9/24/2007, you wrote: About a year ago NPR interviewed the president of Costco and I was very impressed with his sense of responsibility. He insisted that by providing better conditions he could attract better employees and reduce turnover. He said that the incresed productivity would pay for the better conditions. He was specificially critical of the WalMart methods. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
What I can't get past is that we, or society is gov't. The federal gov't was built only very specific powers. What it wasn't given remained with the states.. more specifically the people. It's still up to us. So again, what I don't understand is why we seem to want out of our obligations (defined as societal/moral/ etc). Why are we always looking to the state beyond its mandate? We have a very capable, and flexible nonprofit sector constantly experimenting with these issues and more. Gov't loves the NPS as it provides a reliable proving ground. As gov't crowds out the NPS in more arenas, while our civil society will never go away, I worry it will become smaller or less vibrant similar to those in the rest of the world. cb On Sep 23, 2007, at 2:51 PM, Randy wrote: I believe you are correct; hence the logical (and moral) inconsistency of those (mostly liberals and Democrats) who simultaneously demand that WalMart and maybe other employers provide more health coverage while also seeking universal health care, usually through the federal government. Meanwhile, somewhat ironically, Republican Governors in California and Massachusetts have helped move their states towards providing universal health care. The rationale for employer-based health coverage no longer exists, as the circumstances which gave rise to this many decades ago have changed dramatically. If people believe there is an ethical obligation to provide health care coverage for all who want and need it (as I do; at least for legal citizens) than this obligation should fall naturally on society, and therefore on society's main instrument of exercising its explicit obligations - government; not on employers. That is, we should assume this obligation and the costs of doing so, not, as we are wont to do, pass it off onto others, such as large employers. Personally, the model that makes the most sense to me of those I heard about is a single payer system; but I would add a lot of significant sticks and carrots to incentivize behavior likely to lead to good health and thus lower costs, while disincentivizing behavior likely to do the opposite. I would extend this to the radical notion that people who are not able, at least at the moment, to provide for their children should be discouraged - as an ethical matter - from having children they cannot support, and therefore are likely to look to government to assume, in effect, this parental responsibility. Of course, no mainstream politician or public figure would ever dare raise the ethics of having an unlimited right to reproduce irrespective of the consequences of exercising that right, but the issue is both logically and morally linked to the argument that society or someone has an obligation to provide for health care coverage for all persons, particularly those who cannot afford or access it on their own. What does this have to do with computers? Nothing, directly, but since others are discussing this here, this is my 2 cents. Randall - Original Message - From: Matthew Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING I can see an argument that society has an obligation to provide health care to all, and that government is the best means to achieve that. I do not see that the obligation, if extant, should in any way fall on employers. If one accepted that argument, that an economic entity that employs a person obligated to provide healthcare to that person, then every mom and pop enterprise, every individual who ever hired a kid to mow the lawn, would logically and ethically share the obligation, for the size of the employer does not bear upon the obligation, only its practicality. That is not Scrooge refusing to give to charity, for charity by its definition is voluntary, not obligatory. Matthew On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Constance Warner wrote: Does Walmart have some inherent obligation to pay healthcare? There Might be a business case to do so...but that does not translate into an obligation. COMMENT: `Are there no prisons?'' asked Scrooge. * *** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: ComputerGuys-L- [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *** * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ * RSS at www.mail
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
I have owned small businesses for the past 40 years. I retired in Jan 2007. I provided health insurance for employees. Certainly for the past 10 years, I provided a compensation package that took the cost of health insurance into consideration. I had very low turnover as health insurance for low wage ($7-11/hr) employees who can only work 30 hrs a week is not easy to find. the cost of a family was $500 in 2000, and $1000 in 2006thats per month!!! * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
On Sep 13, 2007, at 10:47 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: OT WARNING!! -Walmart makes deals with communities not to pay local taxes in return for bringing jobs to the area. As do many, many other business considering locating in a community. This is a problem with local / state governments willing to offer tax incentives in an attempt to beggar their neighbor - any business that left such on the table when they know it is available would be violating their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. -Walmart underpays employees, sometimes making them work without pay, and employees often need gov't assistance, i.e. food stamps, subsidized housing. That is paid by local taxpayers, not Walmart. If employees are made to work off the clock (as I have read from credible sources has happened in some stores in violation of company policy) that is a criminal or civil offense (depending on the jurisdiction iirc). That some of its employees are otherwise in need of government assistance puts those employees squarely in the mainstream of american society - we have structured our society such that a significant minority, if not a majority, have become dependent on government for day to day needs. -Walmart either doesn't pay health benefits, or pays so little that employees have to pay the difference themselves, which they can't afford on Walmart wages, or get Medicaid, paid by local taxpayers, not Walmart. Does Walmart have some inherent obligation to pay healthcare? There might be a business case to do so (which is why Kaiser started that ball rolling during WWII when they could not raise wages due to government regulations) but that does not translate into an obligation. I can also attest from personal family experience that Walmart is a very attractive place to work compensation package wise if you have made a long term commitment to the company. If you are more transient it is much less so. -Walmart avoids paying taxes by renting from themselves, Clever of them. Again, this is the fault of tax laws that allow it, not Walmart for doing what the law allows and their fiduciary duty basically requires them to take advantage of. The Walton family is worth around $85 Billion. Sam Walton's daughter, Alice Walton, is in the forefront of lobbying to repeal the estate tax, spending $millions to avoid paying $billions. When they don't pay, ordinary taxpayers make up the difference, especially with the national debt at almost $9 trillion. Again you appear to assume that YOU, and other taxpayers, have an inherent right to the Walton inheritance. Why? And they sell lousy computers...and the store stinks--literally. Yes, for the most part, and yes, occasionally. So do many other stores. Most clean up or fade away. Matthew * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
This is an old story--see the comment below this summary of the original debate, if you like. On Sep 13, 2007, at 10:47 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: OT WARNING!! -Walmart makes deals with communities not to pay local taxes in return for bringing jobs to the area. This is a problem with local / state governments willing to offer tax incentives in an attempt to beggar their neighbor - any business that left such on the table when they know it is available would be violating their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. -Walmart underpays employees, sometimes making them work without pay, and employees often need gov't assistance, i.e. food stamps, subsidized housing. That is paid by local taxpayers, not Walmart. If employees are made to work off the clock...that is a criminal or civil offense...That some of its employees are otherwise in need of government assistance puts those employees squarely in the mainstream of american society - we have structured our society such that a significant minority, if not a majority, have become dependent on government for day to day needs. -Walmart either doesn't pay health benefits, or pays so little that employees have to pay the difference themselves, which they can't afford on Walmart wages, or get Medicaid, paid by local taxpayers, not Walmart. Does Walmart have some inherent obligation to pay healthcare? There Might be a business case to do so...but that does not translate into an obligation. COMMENT: `Are there no prisons?'' asked Scrooge. ``Plenty of prisons,'' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. ``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?'' ``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.'' ``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge. ``Both very busy, sir.'' ``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.'' ``Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,'' returned the gentleman, ``a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'' ``Nothing!'' Scrooge replied. ``You wish to be anonymous?'' ``I wish to be left alone,'' said Scrooge. ``Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.'' ``Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'' ``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that.'' ``But you might know it,'' observed the gentleman. ``It's not my business,'' Scrooge returned. ``It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!'' *** * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] [ OT WARNING!!!!
I can see an argument that society has an obligation to provide health care to all, and that government is the best means to achieve that. I do not see that the obligation, if extant, should in any way fall on employers. If one accepted that argument, that an economic entity that employs a person obligated to provide healthcare to that person, then every mom and pop enterprise, every individual who ever hired a kid to mow the lawn, would logically and ethically share the obligation, for the size of the employer does not bear upon the obligation, only its practicality. That is not Scrooge refusing to give to charity, for charity by its definition is voluntary, not obligatory. Matthew On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Constance Warner wrote: Does Walmart have some inherent obligation to pay healthcare? There Might be a business case to do so...but that does not translate into an obligation. COMMENT: `Are there no prisons?'' asked Scrooge. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
