Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
The reason that all the rest of the world who have universal health care has a 5% admin overhead and our non-universal health care has an admin overhead of 18-25% is exactly demonstrated by your experience with your wife's prescription. Most doctors in the US have more billing staff than they do medical staff and more time and delay is spent on sorting out the business of medicine than on the medicine itself. US health care has Veterans, Gov, Medicaid, Medicare and all the MANY insurance company's health plans and all the complexity that administrating so many disparate systems. US Health Care doesn't even cover everyone nor cover the same procedures nor cover anything at the same price. Doctors have to be able to do business with them all. No matter how the world's varied universal health plans deal with private and public components, they all have one thing in common that enables them to operate with an average of 5% overhead. One set of everything: * They very simply cover everyone from cradle to grave, (no having to figure out who is covered) * they use one coverage plan (rules) to govern all health care in the country. (No dealing with multiple systems) * they use one set of forms (Not buried in mystifying forms) * they use one list of medical procedures (No having to figure out what is allowed or covered) * they use one list of prices (sometimes adjusted regionally) (No haggling over the prices for every procedure) We could cover everyone in the US too for the difference between 5% and 18-25% overhead. But that % difference is currently going in the US to businesses that don't want to be cut out of their self determined and unregulated income train and they are spending millions and millions currently lobbying to make sure they are not. My medical plan is Group Health CoOp. The clinic building I go to is an architectural wonder with glass roof, art pieces everywhere, live trees in the lobby with outsourced maintenance and in the last 8 years the entire place ... a building less than 15 years old ... has been repainted, recarpeted and completely refurnished with new furniture twice. You might expect that of a high priced law firm but I bet even the high priced lawyers wouldn't go for such an ongoing waste of their potential resources in their firms. And when I use a lawyer, I don't use a fancy one in a high priced building downtown... why do I have to use and pay for a doctor in a building like that? And my experience is that when I was young I got better health care from our local doc and our local hospital than I do now with this Group Health bureaucratic monster... There is a new book out by T R Reid the Washington Post columnist. The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer /Health Care/ He went around the world investigating ALL the world's health plans and does a great job of dishing up that info in a easily understandable way. (Says essentially there are 4 different types around the world). Very informative... highly recommend it. db Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: The problem in some areas is that they think people look act and think monolithic or homogeneous. I am not one who could really be called a liberal (Well if compared to a John Bircher maybe) I do not vote straight party tickets and normally do not vote Democratic (I vote based on Candidate) I do not agree with nor support all of Pres. Obama's initiatives. I just happen to be p0assionate about this one Topic Health care reform. I think most of what has been seen on public airwaves is disinformation from both sides and is political in nature. There is too much money involved from many sides to seriously look at helth care reform because way too many lobbyists have a vested interest. I just spent a half hour on the phone trying to get a prescription for my wife. This is not anew medication it is not an experimental medication it is one that is advertised on TV a lot. Problem is it is name brand and my prescription plan does not want to pay the bucks for her to have it. Because it hurts the bottom line. So I take out of my productivity to get the company to do what they have been paid to do, instead of circling their wagons and denying everything that is supposed to happen. (I am finding that they loose information and do not keep real good track of their phone logs.) This is the type of health care system we defend and cheer on and do not want to change? They have all sorts of electronic information in front of them and instead of making human decisions they allow the computer to make it for them and then do not stand behind it when pushed? How stupid. Stewart At 11:54 AM 9/9/2009, b_s-wilk wrote: I've met Paglia. Friends have attended her classes. She's a phony, even more than Ayn Rand--at least Rand believed some of what she wrote [but didn't follow], while
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
The reason that all the rest of the world who have universal health care has a 5% admin overhead and our non-universal health care has an admin overhead of 18-25% is exactly demonstrated by your experience with your wife's prescription... No matter how the world's varied universal health plans deal with private and public components, they all have one thing in common that enables them to operate with an average of 5% overhead. One set of everything: * They very simply cover everyone from cradle to grave, (no having to figure out who is covered)... Most cover everyone--including tourists, guests, visitors. Unlike in the US, their xenophobia doesn't extend to health care. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
Once again, you and I are the government, so are you confessing? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:59 PM, mike wrote: Government is nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they do have a vested interest is totally beyond me. On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: The problem in some areas is that they think people look act and think monolithic or homogeneous. I am not one who could really be called a liberal (Well if compared to a John Bircher maybe) I do not vote straight party tickets and normally do not vote Democratic (I vote based on Candidate) I do not agree with nor support all of Pres. Obama's initiatives. I just happen to be p0assionate about this one Topic Health care reform. I think most of what has been seen on public airwaves is disinformation from both sides and is political in nature. There is too much money involved from many sides to seriously look at helth care reform because way too many lobbyists have a vested interest. I just spent a half hour on the phone trying to get a prescription for my wife. This is not anew medication it is not an experimental medication it is one that is advertised on TV a lot. Problem is it is name brand and my prescription plan does not want to pay the bucks for her to have it. Because it hurts the bottom line. So I take out of my productivity to get the company to do what they have been paid to do, instead of circling their wagons and denying everything that is supposed to happen. (I am finding that they loose information and do not keep real good track of their phone logs.) This is the type of health care system we defend and cheer on and do not want to change? They have all sorts of electronic information in front of them and instead of making human decisions they allow the computer to make it for them and then do not stand behind it when pushed? How stupid. Stewart At 11:54 AM 9/9/2009, b_s-wilk wrote: I've met Paglia. Friends have attended her classes. She's a phony, even more than Ayn Rand--at least Rand believed some of what she wrote [but didn't follow], while Paglia writes something to see how many people get excited and give her the attention she doesn't deserve. If you believe that she's accurate, you're more gullible than I thought. Camille sez, ...This Salon column is my sole Web presence... Thank goodness. Just because many of us actually think about issues, analyzing details, and acting on the results, that doesn't mean we're sheeple. But to Libertarians, all who aren't like them are sheeple. They want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, how they want to do it, disregarding all others, until they get sick or lose their jobs or homes and need help. Even the churches and NGO nonprofits get some of their precious money from the feds in the taxes they don't pay and the grants from local/state/federal agencies. Why do you fear the government? Because you've chosen to avoid it and not participate, letting others make decisions for you? Were you drafted to go to war? Have you ever testified at gummint hearings? Campaigned? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ **
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
Yeah, you pretty much got it. If we are going to allow you to legally run a protection racket we are going to bring it into reality when it comes to profit. If this is beyond understanding let me put it another way. Any future kids you have you have to pay insurance for in case they might have a brain cloud. And you have to start paying today. Of course in the future I might say your child really doesn't have a brain cloud. She/he's not covered. To bad, so sad. Meanwhile as your insurance coverer I sit on the beach sipping on my margarita. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 8:24 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: So you are in favor of nationalizing, not just the health insurance companies, but also life insurance and automobile insurance? Your logic would apply to them as well. Or if not nationalize, make them provide the same coverage to everybody for the same cost. For life insurance you should pay the same premium if you are 24 or 64, smoke or not smoke, have a preexisting condition (i.e. Stage 4 cancer). And your auto insurance should be the same, independent of your age (Boy would I have liked that when I was 21!) or driving record. phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Jeff Milesjmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. Of course, an awful lot of those opposed to change do, in fact, have vested interests in insurance companies. I think that is the big elephant in the room that does not want to get talked about. Many folks make a lot of money when insurance companies carry on exactly as Obama described tonight. To tighten up on them would decrease the profitability for stockholders. Additionally, insurance companies provide the underwriting for many big construction projects such as hotels, shopping centers, urban renewal projects, etc. Money tied up in those projects wants to see that insurance companies remain quite profitable. They do not care how much those who are insured get ripped off as long as the profitability of the insurance companies remains high. I need not even mention how much money our politicians get from insurance companies. As always, to find the answer, just follow the money. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Steve at Verizonstevet...@verizon.net wrote: So you are in favor of nationalizing, not just the health insurance companies, but also life insurance and automobile insurance? Your logic would apply to them as well. What logic are you ascribing to me? All I said was that the huge amounts of money being made by health insurance companies, and the attendant dividends being paid to their stockholders, is a big part of the equation in terms of why so many are against reform of the insurance end of the health care debate, and that issue not being talked about much at all. Indeed, when Obama spoke to that last night and talked of making sure that insurance companies play fair and square, as opposed to stacking the deck in their favor, denying insurance and/or benefits primarily to enhance their profits, the Republican side of the audience sat in stony silence as all the rest applauded. As was asked earlier by a member of this list, why do people want to support and cheer on a system that is so lopsided and acts so arbitrarily? Why the opposition to ensuring a fair shake for all? The answer is in the money trail, and that was my original point that you seemingly objected to. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
And here's a bit of personal observation. When someone does something wrong and are called on it they sit quiet. When they think they've done nothing wrong they tend to get up and shout and argue. So for me at least, I guess that tells you what I think about those during the speech who sat like they were in church, stoic I think is a good term. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 5:28 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Steve at Verizonstevet...@verizon.net wrote: So you are in favor of nationalizing, not just the health insurance companies, but also life insurance and automobile insurance? Your logic would apply to them as well. What logic are you ascribing to me? All I said was that the huge amounts of money being made by health insurance companies, and the attendant dividends being paid to their stockholders, is a big part of the equation in terms of why so many are against reform of the insurance end of the health care debate, and that issue not being talked about much at all. Indeed, when Obama spoke to that last night and talked of making sure that insurance companies play fair and square, as opposed to stacking the deck in their favor, denying insurance and/or benefits primarily to enhance their profits, the Republican side of the audience sat in stony silence as all the rest applauded. As was asked earlier by a member of this list, why do people want to support and cheer on a system that is so lopsided and acts so arbitrarily? Why the opposition to ensuring a fair shake for all? The answer is in the money trail, and that was my original point that you seemingly objected to. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
On Sep 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: So you are in favor of nationalizing, not just the health insurance companies, but also life insurance and automobile insurance? Your logic would apply to them as well. Or if not nationalize, make them provide the same coverage to everybody for the same cost. For life insurance you should pay the same premium if you are 24 or 64, smoke or not smoke, have a preexisting condition (i.e. Stage 4 cancer). And your auto insurance should be the same, independent of your age (Boy would I have liked that when I was 21!) or driving record. The purpose of insurance is to pool risk. Simple math and probability tells us that only some of us will need help when something devastating happens, but that won't happen to most of us. Since we don't know which of us will need help we pool our risk. We all pay in a small amount so that those of us in need can be helped. This is simple and socially useful. Where insurance veered from socially useful to discriminatory and unfair was when they started treating people differently. If you were black, or Jewish, or Moslem, or Catholic you would get charged much higher rate than is you were a white Protestant. If you did not belong to the Church of England and had a claim the insurance company would say thanks for all your past payments, but we've decided not to help you. That is simply wrong. The only way to get insurance (all forms of insurance) back to being socially useful is to prohibit all forms of discrimination. Put everybody in the pool and charge everybody the same price. Imagine how much less administrative costs there would be if insurers did not have to calculate so many discriminatory rates or battle with their customers over every expense. I was once denied payment for a doctor visit because my PHP was on vacation and I saw the doctor who was covering for my PHP without a written referral from my PHP. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:10 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Sep 8, 2009, at 11:41 AM, b_s-wilk wrote: It may seem counterintuitive, but the reason you have home owner's insurance is to benefit the mortgage carriers, not you; your car insurance is to keep others' insurance from going up too high and for the public agencies that cover the ininsured [unless you live in a state where this doesn't exist]--that's why it's required. Requiring you to have health insurance keeps the hospitals from charging insured patients higher fees to cover uninsured patients, and keeps your taxes from covering uninsured patients in expensive emergency rooms. This post is a keeper. Thank you. Forward it to your Congress creatures. It doesn't help that hospitals try to charge the uninsured 30x what the insurance companies pay. If they can eliminate half the people from your doctors front office that would lead to savings right there. My Doctor seems to have four at the front desk calling insurance companies plus a few in the back processing forms on top of the three or four nurses who do histories and vitals. There is a bunch of fat there that could go if the paper work load were lighter. Did you hear the Fresh Aire on Tuesday about the young cancer survivors and their experience with insurance and Cobra? One woman found it cheaper to fly back to Europe for treatments in her native Czech Republic than to use her American insurance coverage. We may have some of the best high tech medicine in the world but the payment system is moribund. A reasonable scheme to make coverage more universal is needed. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
There's no free market. Never has been. Get over it. Deal with the economy as it exists, not in some utopian, fear-inspired fantasy. Good health, quality education, a stable economy with manufacturing, and a clean environment are as important to our security as diplomacy and our military. Who will be healthy and educated well enough to create and run our new clean high tech [and other] industries? I almost saluted the flag as I read this. **sniff** Shorter Betty: Do as you're told by your betters and don't get uppity. It's like Paglia used you for a model for her column. I've met Paglia. Friends have attended her classes. She's a phony, even more than Ayn Rand--at least Rand believed some of what she wrote [but didn't follow], while Paglia writes something to see how many people get excited and give her the attention she doesn't deserve. If you believe that she's accurate, you're more gullible than I thought. Camille sez, ...This Salon column is my sole Web presence... Thank goodness. Just because many of us actually think about issues, analyzing details, and acting on the results, that doesn't mean we're sheeple. But to Libertarians, all who aren't like them are sheeple. They want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, how they want to do it, disregarding all others, until they get sick or lose their jobs or homes and need help. Even the churches and NGO nonprofits get some of their precious money from the feds in the taxes they don't pay and the grants from local/state/federal agencies. Why do you fear the government? Because you've chosen to avoid it and not participate, letting others make decisions for you? Were you drafted to go to war? Have you ever testified at gummint hearings? Campaigned? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
The problem in some areas is that they think people look act and think monolithic or homogeneous. I am not one who could really be called a liberal (Well if compared to a John Bircher maybe) I do not vote straight party tickets and normally do not vote Democratic (I vote based on Candidate) I do not agree with nor support all of Pres. Obama's initiatives. I just happen to be p0assionate about this one Topic Health care reform. I think most of what has been seen on public airwaves is disinformation from both sides and is political in nature. There is too much money involved from many sides to seriously look at helth care reform because way too many lobbyists have a vested interest. I just spent a half hour on the phone trying to get a prescription for my wife. This is not anew medication it is not an experimental medication it is one that is advertised on TV a lot. Problem is it is name brand and my prescription plan does not want to pay the bucks for her to have it. Because it hurts the bottom line. So I take out of my productivity to get the company to do what they have been paid to do, instead of circling their wagons and denying everything that is supposed to happen. (I am finding that they loose information and do not keep real good track of their phone logs.) This is the type of health care system we defend and cheer on and do not want to change? They have all sorts of electronic information in front of them and instead of making human decisions they allow the computer to make it for them and then do not stand behind it when pushed? How stupid. Stewart At 11:54 AM 9/9/2009, b_s-wilk wrote: I've met Paglia. Friends have attended her classes. She's a phony, even more than Ayn Rand--at least Rand believed some of what she wrote [but didn't follow], while Paglia writes something to see how many people get excited and give her the attention she doesn't deserve. If you believe that she's accurate, you're more gullible than I thought. Camille sez, ...This Salon column is my sole Web presence... Thank goodness. Just because many of us actually think about issues, analyzing details, and acting on the results, that doesn't mean we're sheeple. But to Libertarians, all who aren't like them are sheeple. They want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, how they want to do it, disregarding all others, until they get sick or lose their jobs or homes and need help. Even the churches and NGO nonprofits get some of their precious money from the feds in the taxes they don't pay and the grants from local/state/federal agencies. Why do you fear the government? Because you've chosen to avoid it and not participate, letting others make decisions for you? Were you drafted to go to war? Have you ever testified at gummint hearings? Campaigned? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: The problem in some areas is that they think people look act and think monolithic or homogeneous. I am not one who could really be called a liberal (Well if compared to a John Bircher maybe) I do not vote straight party tickets and normally do not vote Democratic (I vote based on Candidate) I do not agree with nor support all of Pres. Obama's initiatives. I just happen to be p0assionate about this one Topic Health care reform. I think most of what has been seen on public airwaves is disinformation from both sides and is political in nature. There is too much money involved from many sides to seriously look at helth care reform because way too many lobbyists have a vested interest. I just spent a half hour on the phone trying to get a prescription for my wife. This is not anew medication it is not an experimental medication it is one that is advertised on TV a lot. Problem is it is name brand and my prescription plan does not want to pay the bucks for her to have it. Because it hurts the bottom line. So I take out of my productivity to get the company to do what they have been paid to do, instead of circling their wagons and denying everything that is supposed to happen. (I am finding that they loose information and do not keep real good track of their phone logs.) This is the type of health care system we defend and cheer on and do not want to change? They have all sorts of electronic information in front of them and instead of making human decisions they allow the computer to make it for them and then do not stand behind it when pushed? How stupid. Stewart At 11:54 AM 9/9/2009, b_s-wilk wrote: I've met Paglia. Friends have attended her classes. She's a phony, even more than Ayn Rand--at least Rand believed some of what she wrote [but didn't follow], while Paglia writes something to see how many people get excited and give her the attention she doesn't deserve. If you believe that she's accurate, you're more gullible than I thought. Camille sez, ...This Salon column is my sole Web presence... Thank goodness. Just because many of us actually think about issues, analyzing details, and acting on the results, that doesn't mean we're sheeple. But to Libertarians, all who aren't like them are sheeple. They want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, how they want to do it, disregarding all others, until they get sick or lose their jobs or homes and need help. Even the churches and NGO nonprofits get some of their precious money from the feds in the taxes they don't pay and the grants from local/state/federal agencies. Why do you fear the government? Because you've chosen to avoid it and not participate, letting others make decisions for you? Were you drafted to go to war? Have you ever testified at gummint hearings? Campaigned? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
Government is nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they do have a vested interest is totally beyond me. On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: The problem in some areas is that they think people look act and think monolithic or homogeneous. I am not one who could really be called a liberal (Well if compared to a John Bircher maybe) I do not vote straight party tickets and normally do not vote Democratic (I vote based on Candidate) I do not agree with nor support all of Pres. Obama's initiatives. I just happen to be p0assionate about this one Topic Health care reform. I think most of what has been seen on public airwaves is disinformation from both sides and is political in nature. There is too much money involved from many sides to seriously look at helth care reform because way too many lobbyists have a vested interest. I just spent a half hour on the phone trying to get a prescription for my wife. This is not anew medication it is not an experimental medication it is one that is advertised on TV a lot. Problem is it is name brand and my prescription plan does not want to pay the bucks for her to have it. Because it hurts the bottom line. So I take out of my productivity to get the company to do what they have been paid to do, instead of circling their wagons and denying everything that is supposed to happen. (I am finding that they loose information and do not keep real good track of their phone logs.) This is the type of health care system we defend and cheer on and do not want to change? They have all sorts of electronic information in front of them and instead of making human decisions they allow the computer to make it for them and then do not stand behind it when pushed? How stupid. Stewart At 11:54 AM 9/9/2009, b_s-wilk wrote: I've met Paglia. Friends have attended her classes. She's a phony, even more than Ayn Rand--at least Rand believed some of what she wrote [but didn't follow], while Paglia writes something to see how many people get excited and give her the attention she doesn't deserve. If you believe that she's accurate, you're more gullible than I thought. Camille sez, ...This Salon column is my sole Web presence... Thank goodness. Just because many of us actually think about issues, analyzing details, and acting on the results, that doesn't mean we're sheeple. But to Libertarians, all who aren't like them are sheeple. They want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, how they want to do it, disregarding all others, until they get sick or lose their jobs or homes and need help. Even the churches and NGO nonprofits get some of their precious money from the feds in the taxes they don't pay and the grants from local/state/federal agencies. Why do you fear the government? Because you've chosen to avoid it and not participate, letting others make decisions for you? Were you drafted to go to war? Have you ever testified at gummint hearings? Campaigned? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:59 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Government is nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they do have a vested interest is totally beyond me. On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. The difference is I at least have the option of firing some of the government crooks. The corporate crooks just need to be first against the wall when the revolution comes. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
John Duncan Yoyo wrote: On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:59 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Government is nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they do have a vested interest is totally beyond me. On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. The difference is I at least have the option of firing some of the government crooks. The corporate crooks just need to be first against the wall when the revolution comes. But you can only fire the CEO every 4 years. The CEO can do a heap of damage in that time. But if you are unhappy with Allstate, you can take your business to Geico any time you want. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Jeff Milesjmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. Of course, an awful lot of those opposed to change do, in fact, have vested interests in insurance companies. I think that is the big elephant in the room that does not want to get talked about. Many folks make a lot of money when insurance companies carry on exactly as Obama described tonight. To tighten up on them would decrease the profitability for stockholders. Additionally, insurance companies provide the underwriting for many big construction projects such as hotels, shopping centers, urban renewal projects, etc. Money tied up in those projects wants to see that insurance companies remain quite profitable. They do not care how much those who are insured get ripped off as long as the profitability of the insurance companies remains high. I need not even mention how much money our politicians get from insurance companies. As always, to find the answer, just follow the money. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
So you are in favor of nationalizing, not just the health insurance companies, but also life insurance and automobile insurance? Your logic would apply to them as well. Or if not nationalize, make them provide the same coverage to everybody for the same cost. For life insurance you should pay the same premium if you are 24 or 64, smoke or not smoke, have a preexisting condition (i.e. Stage 4 cancer). And your auto insurance should be the same, independent of your age (Boy would I have liked that when I was 21!) or driving record. phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Jeff Milesjmile...@charter.net wrote: Exactly. Insurance companies are nothing but a bunch of crooks. And while some people want to defend these crooks when they have no vested interest is totally beyond me. Of course, an awful lot of those opposed to change do, in fact, have vested interests in insurance companies. I think that is the big elephant in the room that does not want to get talked about. Many folks make a lot of money when insurance companies carry on exactly as Obama described tonight. To tighten up on them would decrease the profitability for stockholders. Additionally, insurance companies provide the underwriting for many big construction projects such as hotels, shopping centers, urban renewal projects, etc. Money tied up in those projects wants to see that insurance companies remain quite profitable. They do not care how much those who are insured get ripped off as long as the profitability of the insurance companies remains high. I need not even mention how much money our politicians get from insurance companies. As always, to find the answer, just follow the money. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
Where do you come up with these figures? Have they been fed to you or are they just off the top of your head? You did get to the meat of the problem however. We might have great medical care here in us. But getting it and being able to have access to it is a totally different story. And that is what we're talking about. As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything. Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You don't have to have whatever insurance. You want to live a few years more? You don't have to buy health insurance. But the option could be there if you do. I agree that the problem lays in prices charged. But I also believe it's our insurance industry that's created this problem, not the lack of free market. It may seem counterintuitive, but the reason you have home owner's insurance is to benefit the mortgage carriers, not you; your car insurance is to keep others' insurance from going up too high and for the public agencies that cover the ininsured [unless you live in a state where this doesn't exist]--that's why it's required. Requiring you to have health insurance keeps the hospitals from charging insured patients higher fees to cover uninsured patients, and keeps your taxes from covering uninsured patients in expensive emergency rooms. You'll pay more by not having insurance when you get sick and suffer a medical bankruptcy. Insured patients pay more--providers will charge them more. When everyone is covered by nonprofit and/or public insurance, the costs are reduced significantly. Used to be the best health insurers were private nonprofits like Kaiser Permanente or BC/BS. By switching to a for-profit system in the US, rates skyrocketed, out-of-pocket expenses for insured patients also went up, while insurance co. profits ballooned. There's no free market. Never has been. Get over it. Deal with the economy as it exists, not in some utopian, fear-inspired fantasy. Good health, quality education, a stable economy with manufacturing, and a clean environment are as important to our security as diplomacy and our military. Who will be healthy and educated well enough to create and run our new clean high tech [and other] industries? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
On Sep 8, 2009, at 11:41 AM, b_s-wilk wrote: It may seem counterintuitive, but the reason you have home owner's insurance is to benefit the mortgage carriers, not you; your car insurance is to keep others' insurance from going up too high and for the public agencies that cover the ininsured [unless you live in a state where this doesn't exist]--that's why it's required. Requiring you to have health insurance keeps the hospitals from charging insured patients higher fees to cover uninsured patients, and keeps your taxes from covering uninsured patients in expensive emergency rooms. This post is a keeper. Thank you. Forward it to your Congress creatures. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Insurance and National Security [was: Intensive care unit]
There's no free market. Never has been. Get over it. Deal with the economy as it exists, not in some utopian, fear-inspired fantasy. Good health, quality education, a stable economy with manufacturing, and a clean environment are as important to our security as diplomacy and our military. Who will be healthy and educated well enough to create and run our new clean high tech [and other] industries? I almost saluted the flag as I read this. **sniff** Shorter Betty: Do as you're told by your betters and don't get uppity. It's like Paglia used you for a model for her column. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
