Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[Liz Fitzgerald via CoTyroneList]

All of theses historical readings are so interesting and informative.  Thank 
you so much. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 21, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Dorothy Gaunt via CoTyroneList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thank you Elwyn.  Absolutely fascinating.
> Dorothy 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Marion,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a
>> hundred pages.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland
>> 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many
>> causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that
>> there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in
>> 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today).  No-one is entirely
>> certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell
>> also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently
>> the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know
>> these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential
>> increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs
>> surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and
>> Protestants.  There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged
>> marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by
>> their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The
>> Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of
>> the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.”
>> (page 55).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each
>> other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that
>> marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness
>> of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people
>> towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions
>> and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry
>> gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early
>> marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry
>> between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in
>> Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down.  So couples eloped to Portpatrick
>> to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16,
>> and without parental consent.  (In England and Ireland parental consent was
>> required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off
>> to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between
>> England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to
>> get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland.
>> Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland,
>> going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think
>> of any other reason for marrying there:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group.  I did a course at Queens
>> University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The
>> lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and
>> the Ulster – Scots.  In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the
>> Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such
>> as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse
>> origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason
>> was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers
>> to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring
>> any women with them.  If they needed women then the answer was usually a
>> bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of
>> this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly
>> did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse
>> identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of
>> men and women.  They tended to marry each other and kept their separate
>> identity.  They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism
>> which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland
>> in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for
>> all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster –
>> Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each
>> other. 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[Dorothy Gaunt via CoTyroneList]

Thank you Elwyn.  Absolutely fascinating.
Dorothy 

Sent from my iPad

> On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Marion,
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a
> hundred pages.
> 
> 
> 
> One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland
> 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many
> causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that
> there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in
> 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today).  No-one is entirely
> certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell
> also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently
> the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know
> these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential
> increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children.
> 
> 
> 
> The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs
> surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and
> Protestants.  There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged
> marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by
> their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The
> Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of
> the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.”
> (page 55).
> 
> 
> 
> But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each
> other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that
> marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness
> of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people
> towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions
> and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry
> gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early
> marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57).
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs.
> 
> 
> 
> Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry
> between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in
> Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down.  So couples eloped to Portpatrick
> to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16,
> and without parental consent.  (In England and Ireland parental consent was
> required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off
> to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between
> England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to
> get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland.
> Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland,
> going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think
> of any other reason for marrying there:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group.  I did a course at Queens
> University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The
> lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and
> the Ulster – Scots.  In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the
> Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such
> as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse
> origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason
> was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers
> to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring
> any women with them.  If they needed women then the answer was usually a
> bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of
> this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly
> did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse
> identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of
> men and women.  They tended to marry each other and kept their separate
> identity.  They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism
> which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland
> in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for
> all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster –
> Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each
> other.  (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in
> Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be
> found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity
> that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster-
> 

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[Marion via CoTyroneList]

Thanks Bobby.
I found the article and read it with interest. I didn’t realise marriages took 
place at home and it certainly answered some of my questions. I will have to 
try and locate the journals you mentioned to find out more. Thanks for all your 
help.
Regards Marion

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Forrest
Sent: 21 June 2020 13:23
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
Cc: Marion
Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles 
in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking 
particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 
1974).

By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration 
reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the 
Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts.

http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm

It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting.

Regards
Bobby Forrest

From: CoTyroneList  on behalf of 
Marion via CoTyroneList 
Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
Cc: Marion 
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs 
 
Hello all,
I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage 
customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were 
they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom 
have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different?
Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at 
large? How were the mothers and children treated ?
Thank you in advance for your help !
Regards Marion Shephard

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList]

Marion,



I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a
hundred pages.



One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland
1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many
causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that
there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in
1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today).  No-one is entirely
certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell
also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently
the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know
these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential
increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children.



The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs
surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and
Protestants.  There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged
marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by
their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The
Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of
the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.”
(page 55).



But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each
other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that
marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness
of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people
towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions
and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry
gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early
marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57).



Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs.



Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry
between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in
Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down.  So couples eloped to Portpatrick
to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16,
and without parental consent.  (In England and Ireland parental consent was
required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off
to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between
England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to
get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland.
Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland,
going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think
of any other reason for marrying there:



http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0





The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group.  I did a course at Queens
University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The
lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and
the Ulster – Scots.  In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the
Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such
as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse
origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason
was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers
to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring
any women with them.  If they needed women then the answer was usually a
bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of
this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly
did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse
identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of
men and women.  They tended to marry each other and kept their separate
identity.  They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism
which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland
in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for
all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster –
Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each
other.  (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in
Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be
found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity
that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster-
Scots, rather than Irish.



You ask about illegitimacy and the churches attitude.  There was plenty of
illegitimacy around. One study I read suggested that about 1% of births
were illegitimate in the mid 1800s. There were local exceptions especially
if there was a workhouse in the area, and workhouse births distorted the
figures:

Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList]

This was a very interesting article. Thank you for writing it.
Linda  

On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 05:23:52 AM PDT, Robert Forrest via CoTyroneList 
 wrote:  
 
 Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles 
in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking 
particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 
1974).

By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration 
reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the 
Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts.

http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm

It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting.

Regards
Bobby Forrest

From: CoTyroneList  on behalf of 
Marion via CoTyroneList 
Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
Cc: Marion 
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

Hello all,
I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage 
customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were 
they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom 
have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different?
Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at 
large? How were the mothers and children treated ?
Thank you in advance for your help !
Regards Marion Shephard

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[Robert Forrest via CoTyroneList]

Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles 
in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking 
particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 
1974).

By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration 
reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the 
Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts.

http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm

It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting.

Regards
Bobby Forrest

From: CoTyroneList  on behalf of 
Marion via CoTyroneList 
Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List 
Cc: Marion 
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

Hello all,
I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage 
customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were 
they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom 
have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different?
Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at 
large? How were the mothers and children treated ?
Thank you in advance for your help !
Regards Marion Shephard

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs

[Marion via CoTyroneList]

Hello all,
I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage 
customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were 
they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom 
have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different?
Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at 
large? How were the mothers and children treated ?
Thank you in advance for your help !
Regards Marion Shephard

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Index to Griffiths Valuation: Ballyclog Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland c1860

[Jim McKane via CoTyroneList]

Index to Griffiths Valuation: Ballyclog Parish, Co. Tyrone, Northern
Ireland c1860 

Thanks again to Len Swindley for another great addition to CTI!

Jim McKane
Kitchener, Ontario
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