Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: -Caveat Lector- There is no freedom of the press. The press is a corporate tool and so is the government. And they're the ones telling us guns are bad. Hmmmn. There are actually many people who come to their conclusions on their own. J2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: There are actually many people who come to their conclusions on their own. - J2 - just like josh here DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Joshua and EMael: Remember the promise to Teo.Be good boys and maintain the dignity and decorum of the CTRL. Meanwhile, Moo Moo is going to the War Protest. Moo Moo Jones DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Joshua2 Wrote: Your a liar. And an idiot. Only to an idiot. A hard working idiot. Well J2..your argument has just blown me out of the water. Such eloquence OK. So you are saying that the choice should be for gun owners to either get rid of their guns, or commit suicide. I am not suggesting this at all. I am suggesting that the destruction of all human life on earth would be relatively simple when compared with collecting and destroying 10 billion + firearms. (I would love to bid on that contract) Guns are everywhere in abundance. Bad people are everywhere in abundance. Neither of these things are going to change...ever. Any solution must take both of these truths into account. I thought my idea would be more reasonable and humane, but if you insist... I could get behind your suggestion. After all, that's what America is all about. Choice. Joshua2 Calling me a liar and an idiot I can handle, but hard working!!! That is the last straw. Lets address each of your points on its merit. 1. 2. 3. oops...sorry..look like your arguments have no merit. O.K. Now that we have done that lets address the silly things that you have said. 1. idiot liar. Mea culpa, mea maxima bloody culpa. You seem to have a big problem with other people having guns. Is this because you are afraid that your attitude that everyone who does not share you opinion is both a liar and an idiot might get you shot? I am afraid that it is the likes of you who make guns necessary. Lets face it...when the shit hits the fan where will you be??? Hiding under the bed waiting for someone with a gun to come and save you? Do you have a solution to the gun problem? And I don't mean a meaningless diatribe on the evils of people with guns. Give us a real solution. Also...if you can..I don't mind personal abuse if it is relevant. When it is not relevant it just makes you look incapable of sustaining your argument. Respond to my statements with some intelligent arguments and maybe we can have a reasonable debate on the subject. Your response to my post made no contribution to this discussion. Feel free to abuse me via my personal Email but please don't fill everyone elses mailboxes with silly opinions. But only one abusive Email per dissenting opinion please. Thanks. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- There is no freedom of the press. The press is a corporate tool and so is the government. And they're the ones telling us guns are bad. Hmmmn. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Sorry Joshua2 but your blowing smoke. People with guns don't kill people. I see people everyday who are in posession of guns and I haven't been killed once. With regard to the hypothetical prison mentioned below... There are so few murders probably because of the fact that the prison officers HAVE SOME GUNS. Not because sharpening those spoons is such darn hard work. A sharpened spoon is another word for KNIFE. Mass killings with knives DO happen. RAWANDA? EAST TIMOR? So by your logic... Guns + people = death People + no guns = not quite as much death Guns + no people = No death Lets get rid of the people! Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without people everywhere. Well let's assume that we are looking at an high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the gun deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons just don't happen. The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove either one from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier to remove guns than people from the equation. That is why it will happen. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Amelia Edgeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Ric Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Gary Amedee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lets get rid of the people! Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without people everywhere. Good idea. Let's start with blondes. I represent that statement! Was that another one of those blonde jokes? I would've said, "Let's start with gun-owners", but I feared being shot. Also, I'm currently a gun-owner, so that wouldn't have served my best interests. At one time I was blonde, but I reformed, so it's safe [for me] to target blondes. But we can start almost anywhere. Serbs, surfers, serfs, CPAs, truckers, televangelists, UFOlogists, Scientologists, Libertarians, geeks, conspiratorialists, Wobblies, smokers, dwarves, any identifiable group will do. Once targeted, members of the selected group[s] would be encouraged to convert/reform, at least outwardly. For precedent, see the Spanish Inquisition. Rev. RN "I am not a geek" Carter, ULC DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Nope, not in America. Of course we can't say for sure, but that's where my bet is. Yep, people with guns of course occasionally kill people. I'm excluding from the equation all forms of government -- in which you seem to have so much inherent faith -- whose guns have always killed people in ASTRONOMICAL proportions compared to day-to-day murders other crimes, or even mass-murdering psychotics on ritalin. However, the number of DEFENSIVE uses of guns -- many of which entail merely showing the weapon without a shot ever being fired -- far, FAR outweighs the number of perpetrators. www.nvcdl.org - Lyn -Original Message- From: nurev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove either one from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier to remove guns than people from the equation. That is why it will happen. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Gary Amedee wrote: -Caveat Lector- Sorry Joshua2 but your blowing smoke. People with guns don't kill people. Your a liar. I see people everyday who are in posession of guns and I haven't been killed once. And an idiot. With regard to the hypothetical prison mentioned below... There are so few murders probably because of the fact that the prison officers HAVE SOME GUNS. Not because sharpening those spoons is such darn hard work. A sharpened spoon is another word for KNIFE. Only to an idiot. Mass killings with knives DO happen. RAWANDA? EAST TIMOR? A hard working idiot. So by your logic... Guns + people = death People + no guns = not quite as much death Guns + no people = No death This is indeed logical. Lets get rid of the people! Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without people everywhere. OK. So you are saying that the choice should be for gun owners to either get rid of their guns, or commit suicide. I thought my idea would be more reasonable and humane, but if you insist... I could get behind your suggestion. After all, that's what America is all about. Choice. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- "Stopforth, Jamie" wrote: -Caveat Lector- I've heard from numerous people that shootings and crime is becoming a trend due to the media it gets. Therefore it's done to gain attention... How about removing the 1st amendment thus taking away the freedom of the press so we can lower the crime rate, sounds easier to me. But heck no, the press is the key tool in controlling the sheople. Can't you see it's what "they" want? If the elitists want it, I don't. That's a pretty easy philosophy to live by. Jamie Well let's assume that we are looking at an high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the gun deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons just don't happen. The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove either one from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier to remove guns than people from the equation. That is why it will happen. Joshua2 There is no freedom of the press. The press is a corporate tool and so is the government. No more red herrings eh guys. The problem is guns. Quit blaming every damn thing in the universe. The problem is easy access to too many guns. That's where the focus is right now and that's where the problem will be solved. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Teo One Thousand wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 6/2/99 6:26:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well let's assume that we are looking at an high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the gun deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons just don't happen. The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove either one from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier to remove guns than people from the equation. That is why it will happen. Joshua2 I grant your point, even though, as you rightly say, yours is not a perfect example. One must not forget, that in the environment that you have chosen for your example there is a much greater degree of control over every action of the prisoners. This is what keeps the death rate down to a great extent, not JUST the lack of weapons, notably guns. I know that you do not advocate this type of control on society in general so the analogy is flawed to some extent. However, point taken and conceded. My own personal opinion on the matter is that much more would be gained and in a better fashion if we attack the root of much of the death's by shooting that occur. That is crime. Decriminalizing drugs, and some other less drastic means than banning all gun ownership, except for law enforcement, are effective, and necessary in my opinion, things that could be done to reduce the violent crime rate, especially death by gun. Teo1000 The issue is much bigger than just crime. If crime stayed as it is and remained unchanged, or were magically solved as a societal problem, the rest of the problems related to guns would still warrant their removal from easy access. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Back to the perverbial name calling... hmm. ... Let us please be civil and as always [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that's what America is all about. Choice. Joshua2 Where have you been J2? "Choice" comes by and through FREEDOM and LIBERTY. And just where do you think freedom and liberty came from? Hm? I'll tell you where. It came from a lot of blood sweat and tears by people who cared about their own, and the many future generations of this great country. I dare say, without those who brandished weapons on this soil as well as many foreign soils, to maintain and fight for FREEDOM and LIBERTY... for those of us here in the great US of A, you would not be sitting comfortably in front of your computer screen right now. eagle1 -Original Message- From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] "Why GUNS are here to stay."2/2 -Caveat Lector- Gary Amedee wrote: -Caveat Lector- Sorry Joshua2 but your blowing smoke. People with guns don't kill people. Your a liar. I see people everyday who are in posession of guns and I haven't been killed once. And an idiot. With regard to the hypothetical prison mentioned below... There are so few murders probably because of the fact that the prison officers HAVE SOME GUNS. Not because sharpening those spoons is such darn hard work. A sharpened spoon is another word for KNIFE. Only to an idiot. Mass killings with knives DO happen. RAWANDA? EAST TIMOR? A hard working idiot. So by your logic... Guns + people = death People + no guns = not quite as much death Guns + no people = No death This is indeed logical. Lets get rid of the people! Most of us are arseholes anyway and wouldn't it be a lovely planet without people everywhere. OK. So you are saying that the choice should be for gun owners to either get rid of their guns, or commit suicide. I thought my idea would be more reasonable and humane, but if you insist... I could get behind your suggestion. After all, that's what America is all about. Choice. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 6/2/99 6:26:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well let's assume that we are looking at an high security prison for the worst possible offenders. Where are the gun deaths? Where are the accidental shootings? Prisoners who want to kill really have to work hard at it. Mass killings with sharpened spoons just don't happen. The simple straight fact is PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Remove either one from the equation, and the outcome changes drastically. It is easier to remove guns than people from the equation. That is why it will happen. Joshua2 I grant your point, even though, as you rightly say, yours is not a perfect example. One must not forget, that in the environment that you have chosen for your example there is a much greater degree of control over every action of the prisoners. This is what keeps the death rate down to a great extent, not JUST the lack of weapons, notably guns. I know that you do not advocate this type of control on society in general so the analogy is flawed to some extent. However, point taken and conceded. My own personal opinion on the matter is that much more would be gained and in a better fashion if we attack the root of much of the death's by shooting that occur. That is crime. Decriminalizing drugs, and some other less drastic means than banning all gun ownership, except for law enforcement, are effective, and necessary in my opinion, things that could be done to reduce the violent crime rate, especially death by gun. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- In fact, a number of books, one by a professor at Florida State University, has proven your statement incorrect. There is more than ample proof that the death rate goes up when gun ownership Read More Guns, Less Crime by John R. Lott Jr. ISBN 0-226-49363-6. It'll open your eyes. Consider Table 5.4 on page 104. "Crime and county data on concealed-handgun permits: Pennsylvania counties with populations greater than 200,000" Percent of change in the crime rate due to a one percent change in then number of right-to-carry permits/population over 21 between 1988 and each year since the law was implimented: Violent crime: -5.3% Murder: -26.7% Rape: -5.7% Aggravated assault: -4.8% Robbery: 1.2% Property crime: -0.12% Auto theft: 1.5% Burglary: -1.4% Larceny: 0.7% Percent of change in the crime rate due to a one percent change in the arrest rate for the crime catagory: Violent crime: -0.79% Murder: -0.37% Rape: -0.08% Aggravated assault: -0.76% Robbery: -0.84% Property crime: -0.41% Auto theft: -0.065% Burglary: -1.1% Larceny: 0.13% That's one page. The book is 220 pages long. Read every one of 'em. Clearly an armed populace has a greater effect on crime than does an armed constabulary. What else does this tell us about the failure of our comparatively recent experiment with palming off the collective duty of every citizen, every human, to protect each other onto a tiny handful of corrupt, cowardly, mercenary goons who don't even do the job? After a century and a half of progressively increasing failure, it's time to learn waht the expiriment has to teach, call it quits and to go back to the tried and true way, armed citizens. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 6/1/99 7:03:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We have. The majority of American prisoners are nonviolent offenders (i.e. drug users). -Original Message- From: nurev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Look at a prison. J2 I think Joshua's point is that there are no gun deaths in prison. He used it to support his argument that gun control is good and means less murder. In prison though there are NO weapons so it is not a really good example, IMO. Deaths do occur though, so whatever serves the purpose at the time will suffice, be it a shiv, a sharpened spoon, or fists. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: -Caveat Lector- The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the death rate drops like a rock. You SAY it's a fact, but you cite no proof. Look at a prison. J2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: -Caveat Lector- Before we ban guns all together It is physically impossible to ban guns. The genii is out of the bottle. All the laws in the world can't put it back in. Not a problem at all. What we must do is create a world in which the use of guns, or of any other tool, to oppress others in any way is unthinkable because the oppression of others is unthinkable in and of itself, with tools or without. Such a world cannot be created with guns and such a world cannot be created without guns. That's just beautiful. Such a world is our only hope because this world, the world we have today, will otherwise destroy us and in the meantime is a prison. There are no guns in prison just killers without guns. Killers without guns are very inefficient, and therefore there are very few deaths due to gunshot wounds in a population of killers. This is a refutation to that moronic, idiotic ditty " guns don't kill, people kill. " The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the death rate drops like a rock. Bye bye Mr. Smith Bye bye Mr. Wesson Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the death rate drops like a rock. You SAY it's a fact, but you cite no proof. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: -Caveat Lector- The fact is that people with guns kill, and when you take them away, the death rate drops like a rock. You SAY it's a fact, but you cite no proof. In fact, a number of books, one by a professor at Florida State University, has proven your statement incorrect. There is more than ample proof that the death rate goes up when gun ownership goes down! Jim DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- remember the "Luby's" massacre a few years ago?? one of the women survivors had been carrying till THAT DAY--she watched her mom and dad get shot in the head. if she had been carrying, that WOULD NOT have happened liz DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Gavin Phillips wrote: snip According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens. It doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens when guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out. Gavin; How soon do you think? Depends on the economy. social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far more peacful then, right Nurev? No not then, after then. Gavin; After the carnage, and a country more divided than it has ever been. Oh, now I get it. There I go with my predictions again. I just wonder how many others on the list agree with my predictions as opposed to yours; of a kinder, gentler America, disarmed. America has never been kind or gentle. It has been a murderous offshoot ( pun intended ) of the most violent culture in all the world in all of history Gavin; There you go bringing your Darwinian religion into it again. Isn't it great to have the crutch and faith of Darwinian evolution to give you all the answers. Makes things far less complicated. Please, stop making a fool of yourself. I am an atheist. What you are describing is religion. Gavin; snip I take it you would live as a slave, and wait for better men than you to free you. You think you're the smart one, the survivor, right? Listen buddy. You really need to understand this. In nature, the organism that survives intact enough to reproduce is the winner. If you are stupid enough to piss your life away for stupid ideologies, you lose. That is why the slogan " live free or die " is insane. It is unnatural and wasteful of human potential. But if live free or die causes you to die because you can't live free, then you can understand the process of natural selection. There are 40 million Blacks in America. Their ancestors were slaves for hundreds of years. They endured and endured the brutality of slavery. Real slavery, not your feverish apocalyptic paranoiac nonsense. They are here today enjoying life because their ancestors did what they needed to do to survive. If their ancestors had been as dumb as you are, and dumb as the religio/patriot types I see quoted on this list, we would never have the pleasure of watching Bill Cosby sell sugared up junk food to little children. Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought for it. How about buying your way out? How about if the slave owners can't afford to keep slaves? How about if the slave owner suddenly becomes a mentch and frees his slaves because it's wrong to own human beings? Do you ever stop exaggerating? Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence iself defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a future that may or may not happen. Gavin; That's right. Violene is failure. Unfortunately it will never be erradicated, especially with the likes of the ATF, FBI and other government gestapo harrassing and murdering Americans. Real self defence? What is your definition of real self defence. No knock warrants, government agencies trashing your house looking for drugs or guns which they cannot find because they were never there in the first place. Government seizing your house, car, other belongings because they found some marijuana. Bad...bad government. According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens. It doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens when guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out. Gavin; How soon do you think? and the government sending in the military on house to house searches in order to get them, (because that is the only way they will get them)and the massive social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far more peacful then, right Nurev? No not then, after then. Gavin; After the carnage, and a country more divided than it has ever been. Oh, now I get it. There I go with my predictions again. I just wonder how many others on the list agree with my predictions as opposed to yours; of a kinder, gentler America, disarmed. There will be civil war the likes of which we have never seen. Far fewer gun related deaths? I don't think so. There you go with your apocalyptic visions again. Most of you big talkers will give up your guns like pussycats. Some will fight it out. It's just natures way of improving the gene pool. Gavin; There you go bringing your Darwinian religion into it again. Isn't it great to have the crutch and faith of Darwinian evolution to give you all the answers. Makes things far less complicated. snip Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant that the police are useless. Gavin; First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban? I don't know and neither do you. What we do know is that they had no trouble at all getting the guns they did. Gavin; Nice tautology. Of course we know that they got them. You say it's impossible to predict our future after a gun ban. I say there are certain things we can logically expect, and a large black market is one of them. You deny it because it ruins your argument. snip "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- Malcolm X So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no. they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world. Gavin; As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other. The vast majority of them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban. You don't KNOW that, and I want to find out for mysel I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body." Prove Darwin right. Gavin; Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave. Good I'm glad you take that position. It proves that if your brain is defective you are not likely to pass it on to another generation. Love that Darwin. Gavin; Darwin really is a god to you isn't he? He's the answer to all your dreams, anybody who gets killed by the government can be blamed on Darwinian evolution and "survival of the fittest." You don't have to take responsibility for anything as long as you can blame it all on the greatest culler of all time, according to you, Darwinian evolution. I take it you would live as a slave, and wait for better men than you to free you. You think you're the smart one, the survivor, right? Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- The highest percentage of shootings are drug related. Actually, the highest percentage of shootings are drug MONEY related. End drug prohabition and the profit motive ceases to be a factor in drug use, the drug user's prime reason to recruit evaporates, as does the vast overwhelming majority of all crimes. Before prohibition drug abuse was a tiny percent of all recreational drug use and was only a problem for the individual involved and for his doctor. It had no effect on the rest of society. After prohibition came into effect drug abuse mushroomed, and crime with it. The cost to society of prohibition has been enormous, and nothing, NOTHING, has been gained. End it NOW. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 5/25/99 12:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The highest percentage of shootings are drug related. Actually, the highest percentage of shootings are drug MONEY related. End drug prohabition and the profit motive ceases to be a factor in drug use, the drug user's prime reason to recruit evaporates, as does the vast overwhelming majority of all crimes. Before prohibition drug abuse was a tiny percent of all recreational drug use and was only a problem for the individual involved and for his doctor. It had no effect on the rest of society. After prohibition came into effect drug abuse mushroomed, and crime with it. The cost to society of prohibition has been enormous, and nothing, NOTHING, has been gained. End it NOW. Before we ban guns all together this is the FIRST thing that should be done. Decriminalizing drugs would solve a whole bucket of problems, one of the most important being that which is identified above. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay.2/2
-Caveat Lector- Before we ban guns all together It is physically impossible to ban guns. The genii is out of the bottle. All the laws in the world can't put it back in. What we must do is create a world in which the use of guns, or of any other tool, to oppress others in any way is unthinkable because the oppression of others is unthinkable in and of itself, with tools or without. Such a world cannot be created with guns and such a world cannot be created without guns. Such a world is our only hope because this world, the world we have today, will otherwise destroy us and in the meantime is a prison. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Why GUNS are here to stay. 2/2
-Caveat Lector- How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their cowardly pig snouts in the door? Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant that the police are useless. Gavin; First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban? Not very long. By the way, since when has it become irrelevent that law enforcement, with all their weaponery and flak jackets, wait outside the school while the killers reap carnage. Would it still be irrevelent if it was your kids or friends who were being slaughtered? The police are not useless, they chose to cowardly cower outside instead of doing their job and trying to stop the killers and also give first aid to the injured. 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready is better. Agreed. I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- Malcolm X So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no. they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world. Gavin; As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other. The vast majority of them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban. I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body." Prove Darwin right. Gavin; Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave. Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought for it. Nurev, is everybody who owns a gun because they fear a despotic government, the reason the founding fathers gave us the 2nd Ammendment in the first place, all "gun nuts." The vast majority of the people in the gun culture are law abiding citizens who see a depraved leader and an out of control law enforecment doing what ever they want. You suck up the government's propaganda so well, I thought you had more sense than that. Are the ATF and FBI etc. gun nuts too, or are they okay because they work for the government. The ATF and FBI have toally discraced themselves in the last few years with there constant lies, witness intimidation, murders, cover-ups and wholsale cowardice. If you are so proud of them and obviously seem to think that they do a good job, why not join up, put your money where your mouth is, get some blood on your hands. But watch your back jack, because those boys will have you going through the door first every time. As for Darwin, I wouldn't put much credence in his hypothesis. He was the man who said he didn't see any problems with a bear turning into a whale, given enough time.(snicker)I suppose given enough time, hippo's will fly, and then we'll all be in the shit. I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in a country with free access to millions of guns. And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in a country where only the government had guns. There are many countries where the population doesn't have access to weapons and they do very nicely. By golly ! Gavin; Different cultures. America is the worlds superpower and with the most relaxed gun laws as yet. They have to get our guns, they already have everybody elses. But I
