RE: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
--- Tim Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2002-07-15 at 16:33, Harold Hunt wrote: For future reference, the xlauncher-style program is on my list of things to do. I want it done in straight C or C++ interfacing the GDI manually. I don't want dependencies on cumbersome libraries, and I don't want any non-free compiler languages involved. This xlauncher will remain on my to-do list until it is written to the above specs, regardless of whether or not someone comes up with a really slick xlauncher that depends on super-duper-library-foo. I don't care about super-duper-library-foo, I just want to be able to spend a small amount of time in order to contribute to a program with an arguably small scope. So wxWindows is also out? I was hoping for a cross platform xlauncher, as it would also be useful under a linux/*nix system using Xnest. Until someone provides the runtime libraries as part of the Cygwin dist, I'd have to say yes. Also, Harold seems dead set against these rather bloated cross-platform libraries. I don't know a way to get cross platform support easily without using a library of some kind, and wxWindows seems to be the best, it's been around for ten years, and has a _lot_ of functionality. If you are really serious about this, then follow the directions at: http://cygwin.com/setup.html To package the wxWindows runtime and development libraries for the cygwin platform. If you are *really* serious, once gtk for cygwin is released, you could provide the gtk/X11 version of wxWindows for cygwin as well. I understand your concern at depending on libraries, and I guess compiling a static binary won't satisfy your needs? Aviod the bloat, provide a wxWindows dll to the distribtion. The only other way I can see to do this is to do a complete rewrite of the program per OS, to utilise each systems native framework. There would be very little portable code between each version. Not necessarily. The current maintainer of rxvt has managed to create an awesome terminal client that works in both X and as a native win32 app. He did it by using Donald Becker's libW11, which translates calls to libX11 into win32api calls. Unfortunately, he is running short on time atm and hasn't got much time to improve on the libW11 port to cygwin. Since libW11 is already a part of cygwin, you have met Harold's requirements that it not be dependant on some super-duper-foo-library. Also, it avoids unnecessary memory hogging by an xserver running in rootless mode. If you are curious, check out the source package for rxvt, which contains the libW11 source. Also check out the rxvt README in /usr/doc/Cygwin for infomation on how he did his port and how you can contact him. Writing it as an X app once rootless mode works could be an option, as we would only have to write for an X framework, and not for Win32. This sounds like overkill to me though. I agree, no need for the bloat of an xserver running in rootless mode just to use a startup launcher. Cheers, Nicholas __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
--- Rasjid Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:08 am, Ralf Habacker wrote: This is a great idea. I was thinking of using a language/toolkit that I could compile on my Linux box, as it it my main development machine. Delphi isn't too bad, as it (sort of) works under wine. The only problem was the compiled code didn't run under wine very well. It would be cool to be able to use it under linux/unix (hadn't thought of XNest though). What about qt ? It is available for windows and for unix/linux. Just been to the TrollTech website. The windows version of Qt is not fully GPL compatible. See http://www.trolltech.com/developer/download/qt-win-noncomm.html. Based on my interpretation of this discussion, I would say that that would rule out any xlauncher made with Qt for Windows from being distributed by setup.exe. The site also states that it requires MS Visual Studio v6, although my guess is that it could be used with gcc, but would probably take more work. OTOH, wxWindows (http://www.wxwindows.org) is fully GPL compatible. And for those of us that are not C or C++ experts, there is wxPython (http://www.wxpython.org) with an open-source IDE (http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/) which is suprisingly useable despite the version number (0.1) - although I'd suggest the CVS version. Rasjid. The last time I checked, building wxWindows import libs was a PITA because their configure script has literally 100+ flags. Why can't they just have --enable-max like apache where it builds everthing that is supported by your platform. Cheers, Nicholas __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
- Original Message - From: Tim Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Rasjid Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: cygwin-xfree Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been playing with wxWindows with C++. Why not just code to the Win32 API? It's not that hard, not for a trivial launcher. wxWindows is a pretty big dependency to have, and the reason your programs are so big is most likely due to static linking instead of using the shared library... Rob
RE: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
On Mon, 2002-07-15 at 16:33, Harold Hunt wrote: For future reference, the xlauncher-style program is on my list of things to do. I want it done in straight C or C++ interfacing the GDI manually. I don't want dependencies on cumbersome libraries, and I don't want any non-free compiler languages involved. This xlauncher will remain on my to-do list until it is written to the above specs, regardless of whether or not someone comes up with a really slick xlauncher that depends on super-duper-library-foo. I don't care about super-duper-library-foo, I just want to be able to spend a small amount of time in order to contribute to a program with an arguably small scope. So wxWindows is also out? I was hoping for a cross platform xlauncher, as it would also be useful under a linux/*nix system using Xnest. I don't know a way to get cross platform support easily without using a library of some kind, and wxWindows seems to be the best, it's been around for ten years, and has a _lot_ of functionality. I understand your concern at depending on libraries, and I guess compiling a static binary won't satisfy your needs? The only other way I can see to do this is to do a complete rewrite of the program per OS, to utilise each systems native framework. There would be very little portable code between each version. Writing it as an X app once rootless mode works could be an option, as we would only have to write for an X framework, and not for Win32. This sounds like overkill to me though. Cheers, Tim.
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
- Original Message - From: Tim Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cygx [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 3:39 PM Subject: RE: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree) On Mon, 2002-07-15 at 16:33, Harold Hunt wrote: For future reference, the xlauncher-style program is on my list of things to do. I want it done in straight C or C++ interfacing the GDI manually. I don't want dependencies on cumbersome libraries, and I don't want any non-free compiler languages involved. This xlauncher will remain on my to-do list until it is written to the above specs, regardless of whether or not someone comes up with a really slick xlauncher that depends on super-duper-library-foo. I don't care about super-duper-library-foo, I just want to be able to spend a small amount of time in order to contribute to a program with an arguably small scope. So wxWindows is also out? I was hoping for a cross platform xlauncher, as it would also be useful under a linux/*nix system using Xnest. I don't know what Harold will say - although I can guess :}. What we do over in cygwin-apps when someone offers to provide maintain foo, that depends on library bar which is not in the distribution, is to say Maintain bar - making it a .dll if appropriate, packaging it and so forth. THEN, and only then, offer foo as a package. In short, I don't see any particular problem with wxWindows per se, as long as you make it easy for other folk to build and link and run against it natively. This would involve at a minimum a shared library and a -devel package with a static build and the headers. Rob
RE: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
Actually, I am just about to add per-user registry support, so you might as well use the registry. Harold -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rasjid Wilcox Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:33 AM To: Tim Thomson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree) On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 7:08 am, Tim Thomson wrote: snip I would prefer that xlauncher, or a variant be installable via setup.exe, so it can be used by anyone. If it means porting/rewriting, I'll give it a shot :) (There isn't all that much code there, most is just writing to registry, and reading it back. Which is another thing, would it be better to use a config file rather than registry? Currently, I'm writing to HKEY Local Machine, but should be writing to current user, so that people with few rights on an NT style box can use it. If I were to use a config file, where to put it?) Personally, I would go for a config file. As mentioned in another post of mine, I was working on a Python/wxWindows GUI. I can send you what I've done if you are interested. My most recent thoughts was to create a generic 'Remote X desktop' launcher, which would run on Windows (with Cygwin-XFree86 backend) and on Linux/Unix (with a XNest backend), and possibly Mac. Further plans were to include support for other remote display tools like VNC. I was also considering switching to Java (due to better IDE's available), although the discussion here as left me unsure. Is the GNU compiler able to deal with Java/Swing, or is Python/wxWindows a better 'pure open source' option? Anyway, Tim, if you want to do it in C/C++, I'll help test/debug, but I can't really help code. OTOH, if Python/wxWindows interests you, I'd help with the coding too. If you know C, Java and Pascal, I'd say you could pick up Python in a day. :-) Rasjid.
RE: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
Tim, How does this work, do I just make a package, and then email cygwin-apps? Is this valid for this sort of program, where it isn't even compiled using cygwin? I haven't had any comments on this program yet because, while it is a neat exercise and will be useful for other work, it will not be distributed with Cygwin/XFree86 until it is written in a language that can be compiled with a free software compiler, preferrably gcc or g++. The reason for this restriction is that we cannot have any barriers to entry that keep people without `Commercial Compiler of the Day' from contributing. When I joined the project we had a DLL that was compiled with MSVC++. I was told that it was impossible to avoid using this MSVC++ because the DirectDraw interfaces compiled in that DLL could not be compiled in Cygwin. Naturally, the first thing I worked on, and succeeded on, was making the DirectDraw interfaces compile under Cygwin without any MSVC++ compiled DLL. Eventually I see that either XWin.exe itself will have the functionality of your xlauncher, or we will have a stand-alone c or c++ program that provides the same functionality. Everyone here would greatly appreciate it if you would start working on a c or c++ xlauncher. Good luck, and thanks for contributing, Harold
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
Harold Hunt wrote: I haven't had any comments on this program yet because, while it is a neat exercise and will be useful for other work, it will not be distributed with Cygwin/XFree86 until it is written in a language that can be compiled with a free software compiler, preferrably gcc or g++. That's a bit harsh. If you're following the main list, you'll note that there is a large effort right now to get libgcj and the java extensions to gcc working, in the default cygwin gcc package. If you can compile java code with cygwin's gcc, then java progs should be just dandy. Of course, your java app must not rely on opaque native methods (e.g. the Java Foundation Crap^WClasses from MS) --Chuck
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
Harold Hunt wrote: That's fine about Java... but that last I knew this xlauncher was a Delphi app. What have you got to say about that :) WTF? I don't follow the xfree list all that closely, but didn't this thread start out as Success with Java prog in XFree? I just assumed that 'xlauncher' WAS that Java prog. Sorry for the confusion. You're right about delphi. :-) On the other hand, there's no reason that Tim couldn't create a package, create a setup.ini, put it up on a web page, and tell folks to point setup there. In fact, setup in its current form, without ANY changes, could be used to install just about anything that's shipped as a tarball -- the end user need only NOT select any official cygwin mirrors, and add user URLs for the desired targets. --Chuck
RE: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
Chuck, WTF? I don't follow the xfree list all that closely, but didn't this thread start out as Success with Java prog in XFree? I just assumed that 'xlauncher' WAS that Java prog. Sorry for the confusion. You know... sometimes I'm just not paying any attention at all. What has happened to me?!? A Java xlauncher sounds fine to me, for now. I'd eventually prefer that it be written in C or C++. How large are the Java runtimes for Cygwin? I'm sure we'll get complains along the lines of, ``before I had to install 100 MB for Cygwin/XFree86, now I have to install XX MB more for the xlauncher program, blah''. So I'm not really excited about sticking with Java forever. Feeling like an idiot, Harold
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
Harold Hunt wrote: WTF? I don't follow the xfree list all that closely, but didn't this thread start out as Success with Java prog in XFree? I just assumed that 'xlauncher' WAS that Java prog. Sorry for the confusion. You know... sometimes I'm just not paying any attention at all. What has happened to me?!? A Java xlauncher sounds fine to me, for now. I'd eventually prefer that it be written in C or C++. How large are the Java runtimes for Cygwin? I'm sure we'll get complains along the lines of, ``before I had to install 100 MB for Cygwin/XFree86, now I have to install XX MB more for the xlauncher program, blah''. So I'm not really excited about sticking with Java forever. Feeling like an idiot, You shouldn't. You were correct originally. The xlauncher program IS written in Delphi. The first message in this thread contained the following postscript: PS: I am working on a xlauncher based on the one made available by Tim Thomson but for Cygwin(not only the cuted package from him). I want to include a file text that will contains some definition of servers to access (as IP address, OS, and so on). I will try to make it available. Where should I send it when ready (probably in 1 or 2 weeks) ? That launched the subthread, which was properly marked using the [was: ] construction. The problem here was *my* connection between the xlauncher subthread --- and java. You're not the idiot -- I am. --Chuck
Re: New xlauncher (was: Re: Success with Java prog in XFree)
On Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 11:56:44AM -0400, Harold Hunt wrote: I haven't had any comments on this program yet because, while it is a neat exercise and will be useful for other work, it will not be distributed with Cygwin/XFree86 until it is written in a language that can be compiled with a free software compiler, preferrably gcc or g++. I agree. The reason xlauncher is delphi at the moment is that the person who wrote the beginnings of it used delphi, and I have no experience with windows toolkits in other languages. I was hoping (in a way, a rewrite will be a bit of work :( ), that someone would point this out. What window toolkits are good, for what languages? I can code well in C, Java, and Pascal, and could probably pick up C++ OK :) I am still unsure of the implications of using a non-free compiler, and distributing it as GPL. I use debian, and would love to have xlauncher a DFSG free program. I would prefer that xlauncher, or a variant be installable via setup.exe, so it can be used by anyone. If it means porting/rewriting, I'll give it a shot :) (There isn't all that much code there, most is just writing to registry, and reading it back. Which is another thing, would it be better to use a config file rather than registry? Currently, I'm writing to HKEY Local Machine, but should be writing to current user, so that people with few rights on an NT style box can use it. If I were to use a config file, where to put it?) Eventually I see that either XWin.exe itself will have the functionality of your xlauncher, or we will have a stand-alone c or c++ program that provides the same functionality. Everyone here would greatly appreciate it if you would start working on a c or c++ xlauncher. I'll try, but I've never written a gui app in C or C++, any pointers to something nice for C? I don't know if putting this sort of thing into XWin.exe itself would be all that good, as many people wouldn't need that sort of functionality, and it may bulk out the executable. Cheers for you comments, Tim. -- Tim Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 18073712 Our society won't be truly free until None of the Above is always an option. -- Eric S. Raymond.
