date:20160903

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 12:03:56AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 11:30 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 10:33:58PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> >> On 09/02/2016 09:26 PM, Razer wrote:
> >>> On 09/02/2016 07:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>  On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 06:06:24PM -0700, Razer wrote:
> > On 09/02/2016 05:51 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> >
> >> individual sovereignty and anarchism
> >
> > Try "individual RESPONSIBILITY to the 'collective' called humanity and
> > Anarchism" and I'll nibble. Until then it's just Feudal Nihilism by
> > different means.
> 
>  Nihilism sounds like moral relativism, not very useful.
> 
>  "Feudal nihilism" - I don't understand what that's supposed to mean.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It means you don't care what happens to the shitpile as long as you're
> >>> at the tip of the turd.
> >>
> >> I do feel some compassion for the shitpile. But playing in shit is just
> >> not very interesting. And change (or even transformation) is at best
> >> illusory.
> > 
> > That is not agreeable, nor constructive, although the statement may be
> > provable over specific time periods and at certain levels of analysis.
> 
> Maybe not agreeable or constructive to you, but accurate, I believe.

> > But, for many of us, where "keeping out of it" means not engaging or
> > physically interacting with interesting folk who also exist within "our
> > nation", isolationism is intolerable!
> 
> It doesn't mean that at all.

You're not quite getting this point:


One particular issue at hand: DMV issued driver licenses.

We have the options:

 - isolate (monastically, or with some friends)

 - not isolate

In the case we 'not isolate', and we drive to another 'not-isolationist'
community, we then are presented with two options (amongst others like
"get a friend to drive me", but let's cut to the chase here):

 - drive by common law/ natural law right/ the blessing/ etc

 - obtain and drive with a state-issued driver license (eg DMV)

Mirimir, when you say you choose to 'fly below the radar' or rather 'nod
and smile', what, specifically, are you suggesting in this very real and
current and modern scenario?


(And before you try to sidestep the issue: the properties are 97km
apart, driving and walking are your only means of transport, and you
have to meet in person not video conference, perhaps shipping a few
garbage bags of prime head or juicy tomatoes.)




> > Some say the leader of the Zealots was Jesus the Nazarene, the last King
> > of the jews and there is some evidence to this - a book where the author
> > alleges he read the last scroll of the Zealots in person, but was not
> > allowed a copy (can't remember the name of the book right now).
> 
> That was a long time ago, and impossible to tell from bullshit.

Except to the degree one can put credence in time dating and the
contents of an actual scroll at ground zero of the mutual suicide that
occurred at Masada from their self proclaimed (in said scroll) leader.

Feel free to only put credence in contemporary internet-accessible
blogs, rather than such scrolls, since it's on the internet it must be
true and all that...

Re: [tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/

2016-09-03 Thread Cecilia Tanaka

This thread has begin as a slander, as a lie of the JA Group to announce
and to spread the creation of their site with fake allegations, using own
Jacob Appelbaum's name.

I love Jake and if you have some doubt about about my loyalty and
friendship, please, ask him.  :)

This thread was something ugly and sad.  We are anarchying a slander and
using this thread to celebrate our joy, to celebrate the cypherpunks list,
a group where Jake always be respected and received as an equal, where he
can find friends and supporters.

I love Jake and always will love.  And fuck who doesn't like it!  :)

Alex, my love, Let's make a new thread telling good things about Jake since
the first message, seeing the life in a not too serious way.  This thread
is full of shit about Jake and it has begin with a slander.  Jake deserves
joy, laugh, smiles, tickles, snugglehugs, cupcakes and our love.

The JA Group deserves laugh too, but because they are a bad joke.  A stupid
lynch mob, which used slanders and lies to erase the joy of Jake's life.

Jake is alive, is a winner and is very happy all the times when one more
lie is finally considered false in public.  I miss the happy Jake,
laughing, smiling and I want to listen to his laugh in public again, maybe
cooking onions with him.  ;)

His life is still a celebration, because he always had a hard life and is a
winner.  Who knows how hard his life was, knows he always will be a
winner.  Jake is someone that I love and I am proud to call "my friend"!

Love, Kisses, Laugh & Orgasms for all of you!!!  <3  <3  <3

Ceci

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it."

Re: [tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/

2016-09-03 Thread Cecilia Tanaka

Alex, in the past, you became my friend because of this ugly thread.  The
same with Juan.  We sent lots of private messages to each other and was
amazing a collective work to discover what was happening.

I learned to love df, a tor-talk list member, because of this thread.  He
has a huge heart, very generous.

This thread was horrible, a slander, a horrible)lie and now it is an
anarchopunk celebration of friendship and sex.  Why not?  ;)

Ah, better avoid the sex thing, because of all the false allegations, of
course!  Hahaha!!!  ;D

Because of the JA Group lies, we all discovered how "transparent" and "well
structured" is The Tor Project.  Congratulations!  In the end, that stupid
JA Group had some utility to us: - show us a horrible soap opera with bad
actors and how the USA government is $ influencing $ the project, choosing
leaders and paying its debts!  :)

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it."

Re: New list confirmation (Re: cpunks list relocation imminent (was: Re: moving on))

On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 05:33:33PM +0200, Tom wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 08:08:39AM -0700, Razer wrote:
> > I just took a look at the Wikipedia entry for 'greylisting'. It sounds
> > awful if you're victimized by it. My personal mail from openmailbox to a
> > friend was rejected by yahoo b/c of shit like that and I didn't get a
> > notifcation for three fucking days.
> 
> Obviously you've never operated an email server. 99% of all emails
> arriving on any bigger public mail server is spam. Of course you do
> everything to minimize spam.
> 
> Since most spam comes from bot nets which do not implement queueing as
> required by the RFCs, they are successfully blocked from delivering
> their spam with greylisting.
> 
> Of course this method blocks mails coming from mailservers whose
> operators are stupid morons and do not properly configure queueing.
>

I don't remember operating public SMTPD.

The issue with spam is just temporary kludge.

Queue support via "try again later" is very easy to implement in a bot
-- just precompiled qmail or some lightweight SMTPD would do AFAICT. It
is just a matter of time till spammers do it.

Also, nearly all ISPs have non-negligible amount of users with malware
and some of it may send spam via the ISP's SMTPD. It is mystery to me why
aren't all ISPs blacklisted.

Heard that some Spam Black List operators are fucked up morons, don't
know how true is this.

As an aside, I know admin who blocked access of all Chinese IPs to SMTP
to fight spam (maybe he blocked them totally, not sure).

WAS [[tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/] - NOW [bla bla bla & ha ha ha]

2016-09-03 Thread Александр

This thread is/was about one of the ugliest smear campaigns ever against a
Honest Man. Against Jake Appelbaum.
On this thread people with Heart & Soul tried to defend this Man's
Reputation. This Man's Dignity. Man's LIFE.

And what have you done from this thread? A?
Your fucken childish games. bla bla bla & ha ha ha. and more bla bla bla &
ha ha ha. and more bla bla bla & ha ha ha.
*But it's not funny, fuckers. *Go & make your childish pseudo punky
ha-ha-ha on other thread!


Rhetoric question:

*Don't you have some kind of Respect to anything in this life? A?
A_NY_THI_NG?Nope.* you are "anarchists/punks/whatever". you do what you
waant.
This is how behave True Human Beings? True Anarchists? True Punks? No. You
are just clowns. Hollow people with no principles.




*bla bla bla & ha ha ha - that's what you are.*And the True Anarchist,
the True Punk and Man of Honor, Jake Appelbaum, who fought in the name of
all of us - is bleeding not only because he saw/sees NO defense of his name
from 95% of you, people, who silently swallowed all this slander. *But he
bleeds even much much more* from seeing this kind of boolshit, ugly circus,
cruel inhumanity, where people make idiotic jokes and talk about debility
issues on this thread the thread which buried his life dep dep
under the ground.

Don't you ha

ve some kind of Humanity/ Integrity/ Respect to anything in this life? A?
A_NY_THI_NG?
Nope.


*bla bla bla & ha ha ha - that's what you all are.Or more precisely, cruel
bastards.**.*

NOW [bla bla bla & ha ha ha]

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 10:14:29AM +0300, Александр wrote:
> ... You
> are just clowns. Hollow people with no principles.
>

All of us? Including Zenaan?

Re: individual responsibility - was Re: Nationalism vs Globalism

On 09/02/2016 11:30 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 10:33:58PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 09/02/2016 09:26 PM, Razer wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2016 07:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
 On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 06:06:24PM -0700, Razer wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 05:51 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>
>> individual sovereignty and anarchism
>
> Try "individual RESPONSIBILITY to the 'collective' called humanity and
> Anarchism" and I'll nibble. Until then it's just Feudal Nihilism by
> different means.

 Nihilism sounds like moral relativism, not very useful.

 "Feudal nihilism" - I don't understand what that's supposed to mean.
>>>
>>>
>>> It means you don't care what happens to the shitpile as long as you're
>>> at the tip of the turd.
>>
>> I do feel some compassion for the shitpile. But playing in shit is just
>> not very interesting. And change (or even transformation) is at best
>> illusory.
> 
> That is not agreeable, nor constructive, although the statement may be
> provable over specific time periods and at certain levels of analysis.

Maybe not agreeable or constructive to you, but accurate, I believe.

> Ought we stick to discussions which are not self defeating and premised
> on failure?

My point is that playing those games is pointless. Choosing not to play
is the only sane option.

>> So I'll settle for keeping out of it :)
> 
> That's tough - where the use of force is vested in the state and
> its institutions such as the DMV, and you "just want to drive to a
> mate's place to catch up".

It's just a fact that states monopolize force. Refusing to play does not
mean overt resistance. You just avoid attracting attention, and smile
and nod when necessary.

> Although "keeping out of it" is a laudable goal superficially, the
> implications are fundamentally opposed to living a full and enjoyable
> life engaged with other humans.

Not at all! I just hang with others who keep out of it ;)

> Some like the monastic isolationist life, and far be it from us to decry
> anyone who chooses that.

I wouldn't say monastic. Just private. Read old Bill Burroughs' stuff
about the Johnson Family.

> But, for many of us, where "keeping out of it" means not engaging or
> physically interacting with interesting folk who also exist within "our
> nation", isolationism is intolerable!

It doesn't mean that at all.

> We see what happened with the ascetic and isolationist Essenes who
> "seceded from the Zadokite priests" and wanted to live their lives
> independent of Rome (the empire at that time), so this battle we face to
> live our own lives (independently of the TPTB) is nothing new, see:
> https://waldodhc.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/masada-the-essenes/
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

They attracted too much attention. There is no public history about the
ones we want as role models :)

> Some say the leader of the Zealots was Jesus the Nazarene, the last King
> of the jews and there is some evidence to this - a book where the author
> alleges he read the last scroll of the Zealots in person, but was not
> allowed a copy (can't remember the name of the book right now).

That was a long time ago, and impossible to tell from bullshit.

> Point is, the proles are prone to fear, reactivity, lynch mobbing and
> plenty more, and the isolationism of the Essenes, their desire to live
> free of rome, combined with their penchant for education and science
> (geekiness and personal and tribal advancement) may have been part of
> why 'the rest of the Roman society' was in fear of them, and ultimately
> preferred to destroy them / force submission, rather than let them live
> their lives as they chose.

Yes, they attracted too much attention :(

Re: [tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/

On 09/02/2016 11:56 PM, Александр wrote:
> This thread is about one of the ugliest smear campaigns ever against a
> Honest Man. Against Jake Appelbaum. On this thread people with Heart & Soul
> tried to defend this Man's Reputation. Man's Life.

Truth.

> And what have you done from this thread? A?
> Your fucken childish games. bla bla bla & ha ha ha. and more bla bla bla &
> ha ha ha. and more bla bla bla & ha ha ha.
> *It's not funny, fuckers.* Go & make your childish pseudo punky ha-ha-ha on
> other thread!

Yeah. Funny, isn't it :(

> Rhetoric question:
> Don't you have some kind of Respect to anything in this life? A?
> A_NY_THI_NG?
> *Nope.* we are "anarchists/punks/whatever". we do what we waant.
> This is how behave True Anarchists? True Punks? No. You are just clowns.
> Hollow people with no principles.
> bla bla bla & ha ha ha - that's what you are.

I'm with you on that.

Fwd: Re: [Cryptography] "Flip Feng Shui: Hammering a Needle in the Software Stack"

- Forwarded message from Georgi Guninski  -

Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 08:49:34 +0300
From: Georgi Guninski 
To: Jerry Leichter 
Cc: Florian Weimer , Cryptography List 

Subject: Re: [Cryptography] "Flip Feng Shui: Hammering a Needle in the Software 
Stack"

On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 10:56:10AM -0400, Jerry Leichter wrote:
> > Why bother with patching public keys, making them amenable to
> > factorization, if you can patch executable code instead?
> > 
> > If you can target executable code (and I see why not, it's all the
> > same to KSM), it is very clear that there cannot be a software-only
> > defense
> The technique cannot be aimed exactly:  You can flip some unpredictable, 
> uncontrollable subset of the bits in a word.  (The vulnerability of 
> particular bits is dependent on physical variations in the memory cells.)
> 
... 
> Attacks against the executable code are certainly the worst case, and you 
> might be able to find security-sensitive but very rarely executed code to 
> attack.  But this is likely much harder to pull off than the attack outlined 
> here.
> 

Flipping random bits in a word at chosen location is very powerful primitive.

I am taking bets that it is moderately easy to exploit via many vectors.

Flipping random bits of zero word make it nonzero.

In a boolean context, this flips False and True, screwing the logic.

eg in:

if(is_root || is_authorized) give_em_power();
else drop_em();



- End forwarded message -

Re: [tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/

2016-09-03 Thread grarpamp

Tor, et al, are well described now.
Other oppurtunities exist for, or will be made by, those wishing to take them.
That's what it's all about :)

Re: individual responsibility - was Re: Nationalism vs Globalism

On 09/03/2016 12:22 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 12:03:56AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 09/02/2016 11:30 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>> On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 10:33:58PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
 On 09/02/2016 09:26 PM, Razer wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 07:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 06:06:24PM -0700, Razer wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2016 05:51 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>>
 individual sovereignty and anarchism
>>>
>>> Try "individual RESPONSIBILITY to the 'collective' called humanity and
>>> Anarchism" and I'll nibble. Until then it's just Feudal Nihilism by
>>> different means.
>>
>> Nihilism sounds like moral relativism, not very useful.
>>
>> "Feudal nihilism" - I don't understand what that's supposed to mean.
>
>
> It means you don't care what happens to the shitpile as long as you're
> at the tip of the turd.

 I do feel some compassion for the shitpile. But playing in shit is just
 not very interesting. And change (or even transformation) is at best
 illusory.
>>>
>>> That is not agreeable, nor constructive, although the statement may be
>>> provable over specific time periods and at certain levels of analysis.
>>
>> Maybe not agreeable or constructive to you, but accurate, I believe.
> 
>>> But, for many of us, where "keeping out of it" means not engaging or
>>> physically interacting with interesting folk who also exist within "our
>>> nation", isolationism is intolerable!
>>
>> It doesn't mean that at all.
> 
> You're not quite getting this point:
> 
> 
> One particular issue at hand: DMV issued driver licenses.
> 
> We have the options:
> 
>  - isolate (monastically, or with some friends)
> 
>  - not isolate
> 
> In the case we 'not isolate', and we drive to another 'not-isolationist'
> community, we then are presented with two options (amongst others like
> "get a friend to drive me", but let's cut to the chase here):
> 
>  - drive by common law/ natural law right/ the blessing/ etc
> 
>  - obtain and drive with a state-issued driver license (eg DMV)
> 
> Mirimir, when you say you choose to 'fly below the radar' or rather 'nod
> and smile', what, specifically, are you suggesting in this very real and
> current and modern scenario?

I have a driver license. My vehicles are certified safe. I have
insurance. I drive prudently, avoiding attention. If detained by police,
I am calm and respectful. Refusing any of those things is, in my humble
opinion, just too fucking stupid for words.

It's true that I learned those skills as a drug smuggler ;) But more
generally, I fly below the radar when it's workable.

> (And before you try to sidestep the issue: the properties are 97km
> apart, driving and walking are your only means of transport, and you
> have to meet in person not video conference, perhaps shipping a few
> garbage bags of prime head or juicy tomatoes.)

It's only a problem if you're so pigheaded that you need to openly defy
authority ;)

>>> Some say the leader of the Zealots was Jesus the Nazarene, the last King
>>> of the jews and there is some evidence to this - a book where the author
>>> alleges he read the last scroll of the Zealots in person, but was not
>>> allowed a copy (can't remember the name of the book right now).
>>
>> That was a long time ago, and impossible to tell from bullshit.
> 
> Except to the degree one can put credence in time dating and the
> contents of an actual scroll at ground zero of the mutual suicide that
> occurred at Masada from their self proclaimed (in said scroll) leader.

What exactly should I care?

Far more interesting is the Copiale Cipher.

http://www.wired.com/2012/11/ff-the-manuscript/

https://scottishrite.org/about/media-publications/journal/article/the-copiale-cipher-an-early-german-masonic-ritual-unveiled/

> Feel free to only put credence in contemporary internet-accessible
> blogs, rather than such scrolls, since it's on the internet it must be
> true and all that...

Mostly lies, for sure. But that's true for everything :(

Open Public Notice re Tor Inc and Jacob Applebaum

((
was In-Reply-To: 

))

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:12:36AM +0300, Александр wrote:
> “We must always take sides”,
> “Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim.

This was and is a great insight for me - thank you Alex!

So there's no misunderstanding of what I'm referring to:

   "Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."

Thank you Александр!

Prequel to the this notice:

Notice was given on the tor-talk email mailing list that those with
authority past and / or present at Tor Inc, have an opportunity to rise
to the occasion and denounce that which must be denounced and right
those wrongs which must be righted.

Despite publishing of "codes of conduct" and supporters of Tor Inc
declaring things such as "they're a company, they do not have to do or
say squat for the community" and "and besides, we're saving lives with
our technology you volunteers must continue to volunteer" (which amounts
to an attempt at emotional blackmail against those of good conscience -
links to specific emails demonstrating these types of communications can
be provided),
all those with authority at Tor Inc have completely failed in their duty
of care to our community, to right these wrongs (see below) and to
correct the record and to denounce all those who must, on the evidence,
be denounced (and fired from Tor Inc, and / or reinstated as employees
of Tor Inc).

Abundant opportunities of time have been publicly provided.

It is now time to state for the record the following:

* Open Public Notice, to the community and to Tor Inc

   "Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."

To all those who value the principles of justice, righteousness, and
human rights including the right to private and anonymous communication.

And also and more specifically, to Tor Inc, its previous board of
directors, its current board of directors including Bruce Schneier,
Jacob Applebaum, all operators of Tor nodes, exit nodes, bridge nodes,
directory authorities and any other type of node, all those involved in
spearheading the lynching campaign against Jacob Applebaum, including
those who jumped on the lynch mob bandwagon, Shari Steele, those who
have lied and otherwise conducted and condoned the public "justice
campaign" against Jacob Applebaum which has been anything but justice
and has been nothing but an incitement to an actual lynch mob.

To those who have conducted themselves in evil actions (see link below),
may the consequences of your actions swiftly return to you.
- The ends (whatever "good" ends you thought you were trying to achieve)
  can never justify the public crucifixion by lynching of a man who may
  well be innocent, the creation of environment where his innocence may
  now be difficult to impossible to ever publicly determine, and the
  destruction of his public and private life, all for your supposed
  "good" ends.

- You have achieved and now established that Tor Inc is a known
  dangerous place to work and to be involved, since "if you do not tow
  the Tor Inc party line, there is every chance you shall suffer the
  same fate as Jacob Applebaum" and "never be exonerated, or even have
  this situation where you are publicly lynched and it is impossible to
  ever truly exonerate you if you are innocent".

- You have achieved the result many in our community now have grave
  concern regarding all future events organised or even merely endorsed
  by Tor Inc, since no one shall be free from the overriding oppressive
  fear that any innocent joke or statement, any innocent action, may
  well be deliberately taken out of context and used to publicly lynch
  the individual at issue, with no opportunity for proper or timely
  response by the individual at issue, and with the probability that
  those in authority at Tor Inc shall at best turn a blind eye and shall
  at worst use the events at issue against you.

There is NO "code of conduct" nor any other document which by itself can
undo that which now has inescapably arisen within our community, and
which despite numerous requests, both clear and heartfelt, both
emotional and rigorously rational, for those in authority at Tor Inc to
address, and have repeatedly failed to address, despite superficial and
cynical attempts by current Tor Inc employees to do so.

We in the community have genuine fear and concern:
- That Tor Inc is now completely and inescapably dominated by USA
  intelligence community employees including but not limited to the CIA,
  the US DoD, DIA, FBI and like agencies.

- That good men and women have been genuinely and inescapably damaged by
  the actions and tacit approval of those currently in authority at Tor
  Inc.

- That we can never shed our doubt that all those now employed by Tor
  Inc are utterly and inescapably compromised by some combination of the
  following:
  - by money
  - by the

FOR once and FOR ALL

2016-09-03 Thread Xer0Dynamite

Let's get this straight so all you can shut up or put up:  There are
two futures: one of an Apocalypse or one of Enlightenment.  There are
four prophesies (two religious and two mystical/new age) and two
purely rational arguments why a dramatic and planetary shift MUST and
WILL happen in one form or another.

All this in-fighting is worthless.  If you want the good future it
will take Truths that you do not yet have or Righteousness for those
who have NO voice in the world.  These groups are right in America, no
need to think they're far off and inaccessible.

The experts have been wrong -- all of them.  Whether it's medical
doctors (who have never made a sane nor healthy world) or scientists
(who have not secured a safer future and have wrapped themselves in a
elaborate narrative exactly reminiscent of the Allegory of Plato's
Cave) or religion (who have never even been held to their own creeds
like protecting Earth and Do Not Kill), the failure also lies on all
the MASSES (you and me) who have allowed this clusterfuck to happen
and continue everyday.  You are using your smartphone and sipping
coffee to browse the web and be cool, right?

All these petty issues like bitcoin and encryption, or occupy and gay
rights are so far down the spectrum as to be laughable.  The value of
cypherpunks is tools for greater activism or personal development, not
hiding from the State like little peons, but TRANSCENDING it.

Read Hack the Law at hackerspaces wiki or New World Order, also at
that site.  Either the future is made BY us, or it is destroyed by US.
Which is it?

\0xDynamite

Re: FOR once and FOR ALL

2016-09-03 Thread Xer0Dynamite

Oh, and another thing.  Just so that we're all clear of the utter
stupidity of it all (even though it's mentioned in the links I gave
prior):  the Internet Revolution was co-opted into the same fucking
forces as capitalism in America:  GLAM and COMMERCE.  Did you notice
that the simple O(N^2) value generation of the Net is co-opted into a
mere O(N log N) value by network large site co-opting user attention
into data silos to hook them in there for advertising revenue?  The
Net's value originally (back in the late 90's) was scaling value in
the order of Reed's Law:  super-exponential value generation (O(2^N))
by the addition of creating arbitrary groupings (like this cypherpunks
mailing list) on top of the otherwise N^2 value of a effectively
fully-connected network.

So, graph it out:  an 2^N curve versus a N log N curve and watch as
the values of N go above 100.

THAT is the political battle that THIS list should worry about as it
is/was about the Internet Revolution.

Now please give me a report on what you learned in the four texts I
linked to you.

\0x

On 9/3/16, Xer0Dynamite  wrote:
>>> Read Hack the Law at hackerspaces wiki or New World Order, also at
>>> that site.  Either the future is made BY us, or it is destroyed by US.
>>> Which is it?
>>
>> While this may be true, and human / civilization may or may not yet be
>> developed enough to be able to think or transcend any given thing,
>
> Then let me tell you:  you didn't come from apes -- nobody did.  The
> fact that there are "DNA" similarities are because there was a human
> BEFORE mammals existed.  The reason there is continual turmoil in the
> Middle East is because SCIENCE is trying to ERADICATE their TRUTHS.
> The all-seeing-eye is not from the same human stock as those of the
> West.  In fact, there are at least THREE genii of men:  homo, hetero,
> and amphi sapiens.  (Which is probably why they started trying to tack
> on a SECOND sapiens onto homo:  homo sapiens sapiens).  We are NOT
> homo (for those of us who come from mothers).
>
>> just going on about some topic like polical schools of thought, without
>> bringing any outcomes back to test and bear on what your're trying to
>> transcend,
>
> Well, now you have it.
>
>> is offtopic, and isn't going to get you anywhere enlightened anytime
>> soon.
>
> Better?
>
> \0x
>

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

2016-09-03 Thread Xer0Dynamite

> We are "anarchists" and we do what we want.

Anarchy doesn't scale.  What will you expect with billion+ people
without societal structure?  Watch World War Z and then Book of Eli to
find out.

The future will probably be some mix of Apocalypse and Enlightenment,
with the latter growing over the former.  Some Judgement will happen,
but unfortunately or not, it didn't come from the
technologically-minded -- that Revolution got ***co-opted*** by CSS,
Javascript, and Node.js.  Now collectively called "systemd" (in my
warped mind).

So how do the techno-literati take back the Net, just as the masses
need to take back the Law?  For that, find the Business Plan at
hackerspaces.org and read Zen Code.

You may be seated,

\0xDyamite

Re: Suggestion to list admins for warning/disclaimer on the web for new subscribers

2016-09-03 Thread Steve Kinney

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 09/03/2016 07:31 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:23:48PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:


>> The list has spooks, paid trolls, other similar whores and
>> possibly crackpots.
>> 
>> Some of them post actively, others rarely.
>> 
>> Their motivation might include: * social engineering *
>> manipulating opinions * profiting from the past reputation of the
>> term cypherpunk * killing the list
>> 
>> "What You See is NOT What You Get"
>> 
>> Use common sense when reading or posting to the list. 
> 
> Excellent suggestion - full disclosure and pre-forewarning is
> highly recommended. We have a duty of care to newcomers to make
> sure they don't get involved in anything they might want to not get
> involved in, and they ought be suitably forewarned :)

Such a warning qualifies as a marketing placement, whether intended or
not, depicting the list as a fast and crazy scene where seriously
weird people hang out:  spooks, social engineers, crackpots, etc.
Kind of like taking a wrong turn on a familiar street and walking
straight into an X Files episode.

"It could happen to you."

:o)






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Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

2016-09-03 Thread martin f krafft

also sprach grarpamp  [2016-09-03 20:41 +0200]:
> If you want to longtalk anything other than that to the point
> that the charter would need a whole new section just for you,
> GO FIND OR MAKE YOUR OWN FUCKING LIST FOR THAT.

Thanks for that. It's been appauling…

-m


digital_signature_gpg.asc
Description: Digital GPG signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

2016-09-03 Thread Cecilia Tanaka

On Sep 3, 2016 3:57 PM, "Александр"  wrote:
>
> 2016-09-03 21:41 GMT+03:00 grarpamp :
>>
>> Have some respect for that.
>
> grarpamp and alike, with lll the respect - Go, please go, please
go go go fuck yourself at last! You peace of petty HYPOCRITE(s)!

Alexander,

The man you are offending is helping in several particular searches to help
Jacob Appelbaum's defense.  Some of them are being made with friends of
Jake, like me.

Grarpamp is not being pretentious and dramatic.  He is not making personal
propaganda or pretending being Jake's best friend in public.  He is working
in silence, like a good discreet hacker does.  He just wants the truth.

He deserves my respect.  I apologize with all of you for being a childish
troll, a complete fool, and for all my happy lalalas and hahahas in this
list.  My fault, I confess.  But never his mistake in any sense.  He is NOT
being hypocrite or disrespectful.

He is really working hard for helping Jake and discover the truth behind
the Tor Project, instead only making drama in a public list, pretending
being a poor victim.

Jake is the victim.  Not you.  Not Zenaan.  Not me.  Always remember it,
Alex.

Kisses and hugs.  Take care, my dear.  Still like you very much.  If you
need to talk or to discuss with someone, my inbox always will be open for
you.

Yours Ceci

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

2016-09-03 Thread Shawn K. Quinn

On Sat, 2016-09-03 at 14:41 -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> "The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing
> cryptography and its effect on society." There are reasonable relateds
> within the realm of "cypherpunk" to include *its* computing, tools,
> privacy, surveillance, law, news, literature / art / society, hacking
> / making, organizations and projects, politics, tech, science,
> solutions, crime, etc, etc.
[...]
> Have some respect for that.
> The lot of you.
> Or get off here.

A mailing list is a lot like a lake. If nobody pollutes the lake,
everyone can drink, fish, swim, etc in the lake just fine. If one or two
people urinate in it once in a while, it won't affect the water quality
that much. But if everybody and their dog goes tee-tee in the lake,
dumps their old coffee/soda/tea, and worse every day, the water quality
starts to really take a nosedive and pretty soon there's a bunch of
smelly dead fish floating to the surface.

Please, don't turn Lake Cypherpunks into Lake Tee-Tee And Old Coffee.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

2016-09-03 Thread Александр

2016-09-03 21:41 GMT+03:00 grarpamp :

> Have some respect for that.


Yea Yh!
For that shit, real SHIT of pseudo-respect to some imaginable list rules -
grarpamp gives AND demands respect. YEAH!!! Respect!!! But giving some
respect for some things... you know, a little, just "a little bit" more
important... like Dignity.. or Humanity.. or Virtue.. or Compassion.. or
even this Appelbaums case/thread from today? No way. No fucken way. No
fucken respect.
We are "anarchists" and we do what we want.

grarpamp and alike, with lll the respect - *Go, please go, please
go go go fuck yourself at last! You peace of petty HYPOCRITE(s)!*

4096 bit SSL keys

2016-09-03 Thread John

Speaking within the context of https SSL certs, is there any real value to a 
key/cert above 2048 bits?

The reason I asked: updating a few certs at office recently I nuked an older F5 
LTM device by installing a 4096 bit key/cert pair - the load on the appliance 
(Linux based) shot up from less than 1 to about 30 and became so excruciatingly 
slow it was nearly impossible to back the change out (web GUI and ssh were both 
nearly non-responsive)..

On modern hardware, including modern F5s, this problem doesn't exist... but 
from what reading I've done it seems 4096 buys you very little anyway ?

With a theoretical quantum computer attacking is there any significant gain 
with the bigger key size?

Curious what others think



John
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

philosophokiddies: Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On 9/3/16 5:00 PM, Razer wrote:
> On 09/03/2016 11:41 AM, grarpamp wrote:
>
>> "The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing
>> cryptography and its effect on society."
> That's why I'm here. I'm on the 'society' end of that dyad.
>
> Just in case it REALLY matters to Juan (hereafter known as 'the troll')
> to know what my interest in the list is, and further, for 'the troll's
> information one of the personal influences I named, Herbert Marcuse,
> whose work precedes cryptography as social influence, would have fucking
> well discussed it. Further, the Marxists of his time, the political
> inclination 'the troll' accuses me of adhering to, rejected Marcuse. It
> was an Anarchist... Abbie Hoffman, who is the only person of the times
> afaict who understood WTF Marcuse (and McLuhan) was talking about and
> put it into effect in his activism.

An interesting Townshend quote relative to Abbie:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/28/opinions/bergen-1970s-terrorism/index.html
> Townshend shouted "Fuck off! Fuck off my stage!"
> Townshend later said that while he actually agreed with Hoffman on Sinclair's 
> imprisonment
> , he would have knocked him 
> offstage regardless of the content of his message, given
> that Hoffman had violated the "sanctity of the stage," i.e., the right of the 
> band to perform uninterrupted by distractions not
> relevant to the show. 

I like that: "right of the band to perform uninterrupted by distractions not 
relevant to the show."

I was just looking at this history of anarchism, terrorism, etc.: Seems a lot 
like what some of the philosophokiddies are spewing
toward.  But it's all been done before.  The points have been made, some 
adjustments were incorporated.  After a good hard neo-con
swing, swinging the other way quite a bit.  But a lot has been absorbed and 
learned, so not quite so simplistic.  Anyway, mostly off
topic.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/28/opinions/bergen-1970s-terrorism/index.html
http://rfrancocsp.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-terrorists-of-1970s.html
http://www.sbs.com.au/programs/Seventies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground
> In Weatherman theory "oppressed peoples" are the creators of the wealth of 
> empire, "and it is to them that it belongs." "The goal
> of revolutionary struggle must be the control and use of this wealth in the 
> interest of the oppressed peoples of the world." "The
> goal is the destruction of US imperialism and the achievement of a classless 
> world: world communism"

The philosophokiddie cyperpunks are thoroughly punked and parodied in Mr. Robot:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-creator-of-mr-robot-explains-its-hacktivist-and-cult-roots

>
> Rr
>
>
>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Zenaan Harkness  wrote:
>>> shit and get down to business on analysing political philosphies, to
>>> find practical approaches for our modern societies full of schooled
>> This list is *not* for that, and it's not a list to longtalk food recipes,
>> or anything else either. Lack of moderation is not license for people
>> to come here and setup their own offtopic shops, grossly, willfully
>> and continually disrespecting what it says on the tin and the history
>> of the list long before you [1], to the tune of many tens to hundreds
>> of messages per month, especially without tying it into that.
>> If you want to longtalk anything other than that to the point
>> that the charter would need a whole new section just for you,
>> GO FIND OR MAKE YOUR OWN FUCKING LIST FOR THAT.
>>
>> [1]
>> "The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing
>> cryptography and its effect on society."
>> There are reasonable relateds within the realm of "cypherpunk" to include 
>> *its*
>> computing, tools, privacy, surveillance, law, news, literature / art / 
>> society,
>> hacking / making, organizations and projects, politics, tech, science,
>> solutions,
>> crime, etc, etc.
>>
>> The occaisional short lived foray under self regulation and restraint into
>> untied topics of possible interest to readerbase might be considered ok,
>> however NOT to the extent that it's been abused ongoing.
>>
>> If you're wondering why the "thousands" of people on the list
>> aren't "analysing political philosophies" with you, it's because
>> YOU'RE FUCKING OFFTOPIC, THEY DON'T WANT TO, and
>> they've BLOCKED YOUR ASS.
>>
>> But for new people hoping to find a real or even passable cypherpunk
>> list, and before even joining and blocking you, but just looking over
>> archives, your noise, and the angry abusive trolls, kills it for them.
>>
>> Have some respect for that.
>> The lot of you.
>> Or get off here.
>>

sdw

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 19:08:51 -0700
"Stephen D. Williams"  wrote:

> On 9/3/16 7:07 PM, juan wrote:
> > On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 18:08:41 -0700
> > "Stephen D. Williams"  wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>   
> >>> http://activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html
> >>>
> >>>   "Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  anonymous
> >>> networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations,
> >>> information markets,  black markets, collapse of governments."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   What are the last three words there?
> >> What is the whole paragraph? 
> > Are you too drunk to read, too stupid to read, or what.
> > Maybe try ctrl-f? Actually, you must have seen May's signature
> > hundreds of times? 
> >
> > Bah, I don't realliy care. And you seem to have ignored my
> > previous message, which is probably a good thing so that I
> > don't waste more time replying to a new whole set of absurdities. 
> 
> You're arguing about the meaning of English now?  


What the fuck are you talking about? 


> You've already lost
> that one.  Regardless of what Tim may or may not have wanted to
> happen in some or all cases, it doesn't say there, or in the
> manifesto.

Again, what are you talking about. The only one arguing about
the meaning of english, more specifically, 'arguiing that
anarchy doesn't mean anarchy, is you.



> 
> >> The only call to action is a non-specific 'arise'. 
> > ha ha ha - just how far can your bad faith go? I'd bet it's
> > limitless.
> >
> 
> 
> sdw
>

Re: individual responsibility - was Re: Nationalism vs Globalism

On 09/03/2016 06:51 AM, John Newman wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 12:03:56AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> I wouldn't say monastic. Just private. Read old Bill Burroughs' stuff
>> about the Johnson Family.
> 
> It's been years since I read Naked Lunch or any of the other cut-up
> novels (although I did re-read Junkie and Queer recently)... 

If you like the Johnsons, you gotta read his last trilogy: _Cities of
the Red Night_, _The Place of Dead Roads_ and _The Western Lands_.

> Still, I remember the Johnsons... the correct interpretation of WWJD 
> is, of course, What Would a Johnson Do ?

Right, WWJD :) His Johnsons are cypherpunks. Recall who he was. An heir
of Burroughs Corporation founders.

> John
> 
>

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On 9/3/16 1:30 PM, juan wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 14:41:52 -0400
> grarpamp  wrote:
>
>
>> [1]
>> "The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing
>> cryptography and its effect on society."
>   incomplete, and you didn't even provide a 'source' 
>
>   plus, it's obvious that you haven't read the 1992 - ~1998
>   archives of the list. 

Archives?  We read it in real time.

>> There are reasonable relateds within the realm of "cypherpunk" to
>> include *its* computing, tools, privacy, surveillance, law, news,
>> literature / art / society, hacking / making, organizations and
>> projects, politics, tech, science, solutions,
>> crime, etc, etc.
>>
>> The occaisional short lived foray under self regulation and restraint
>> into untied topics of possible interest to readerbase might be
>> considered ok, however NOT to the extent that it's been abused
>> ongoing.
>>
>> If you're wondering why the "thousands" of people on the list
>> aren't "analysing political philosophies" with you, it's because
>> YOU'RE FUCKING OFFTOPIC, 

+1, or, in the new parlance, >>.

>
>   lol - so political philosophy is off topic? Because you say so? 
>

If it isn't directly about the access to or effects of cryptography and related 
security practices, it is off topic.

Early on, the list was largely about making sure that we had unfettered access 
to encryption and reasoning about the consequences of
that.  This was important for ecommerce, the Internet in general, the 
boundaries of the First Amendment, and as the baseline for the
rest of the world.  All kinds of power grabs were in play, directly from the 
FBI and others.  A weak response might have left us in
a position difficult to unravel.  Most of that came out OK, but there are 
always ongoing concerns and implications.

Arguing whether the end of the world is coming or whose fault it is or who is 
making political or military mistakes is all
completely off topic.

sdw

Re: individual responsibility - was Re: Nationalism vs Globalism

On 09/03/2016 05:25 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 04:47:28AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 09/03/2016 04:03 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Is it possibly less than 'constructive' to dishearten individuals before
> they've even begun?

 So maybe do something, instead of talking so much about it.
>>>
>>> Specific action has been underway for a few years, expecting about 2 to
>>> go. Will report here when success of course.
>>>
> Could doing so, in the context of "fly below the radar with compliance
> with the state" be seen as, I dunno, statist propaganda perhaps?

 Are you fucking serious?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> "do not oppose the state publicly" is easy to read as "comply with the
>>> state".
>>
>> What I mean is don't get caught opposing the state.
> 
> Well ok, that's a legitimate survival strategy, and in general probably
> a wise approach.
> 
> I would say: don't publicly oppose the state, without a clear plan to
> ultimately win you chosen battle, even if that might take a few years.
> 
> And note, by "you" I mean not only you as some random individual, but
> "you" as a group of individuals who unite in a common cause.
> 
> 
> Let's not let those dichotomies (e.g. "one man against the state will
> never win") sidetrack us from possibly winnable approaches.
> 
> 
>> Where you have an
>> oppressed majority that acknowledges its oppression, nonviolent
>> resistance is a viable option.
> 
> This is a very good point.
> 
> 
>> India. US south. South Africa. But it's
>> hard so see how that would work in Australia, for example.
> 
> Ah yes, the wealthy Western nations, content in their golden cages and
> prancing around with many toys.
> 
> I definitely agree this is a bloody hard soil to till!
> 
> Still, fundamentals that hit the hip pocket, such as road tolls ("but
> who's going to pay for the roads?" and so many other bogus echoes...)
> and in particular exhorbitant (even for many poorer Westerners) annual
> vehicle registration fees, may provide some common ground.
> 
> (Let's not sidetrack to insurance just yet ... hold those horses!)
> 
> 
>> But hey, if going down as a martyr is your trip, go for it!
> 
> Sounds like an unwise strategy to me... no contention in recommending
> against that one.
> 
> 
>>> This is hard to read in an anarchist context as anything other than
>>> directly counter to the foundation principles of anarchism.
>>
>> I don't care much about labels. There is no "anarchism".
> 
> Labels are not used for the purpose of boxing, but for the purpose of
> sharing meaning. If we cannot share meanings, we cannot communicate.
> 
> Do you agree it's a useful term for efficiently sharing meaning re a
> particular political "philosophy" or "way"?
> 
> Let's try again:
> 
> 0)
> You say avoiding being a martyr is a good thing. I agree.

Unless it gains your friends enough support, I suppose ;)

> 1)
> Anarchism is entirely appropriate word in this context, since
> (political) anarchy is part of the premise of this list and presumably
> the shared interest, in some capacity, of all those who join this list.
> 
> Do you agree?

As I've argued in another thread, anarchy pre se is unworkable, because
there too many assholes. It's workable in small, self-selected groups.
So then you have myriad tweaks ("*anarchy etc) to deal with that. But
none have worked out very well, I think.

> 2)
> Your semi-implicit suggestion to "comply with the state, or you're just
> a martyr", could be interpreted by someone (e.g. Juan to pick a totally
> random example) as "statist propaganda".
> 
> Do you agree?

You comply strategically, and conceal non-compliance (say, using crypto)
as needed to accomplish your goals. I'd say that it's more like statist
propaganda to argue that you ought to openly defy state power. Because
then you can be eliminated.

> 3)
> Avoiding personal conflict is a valid and reasonable survival strategy.
> 
> I agree with this also - it seems we all agree on these things.

Golden rule. And right to self-defense.

>>> Do you say there's some flaw in this reasoning?
>>
>> Yeah, I did :)
> 
> Are you taking discussion of anarchy, and discussion of civil
> disobedience (peaceful or otherwise) as an invalid discussion, an
> invalid call to arms on this list, or otherwise worthy of countering in
> short order if such discussion raises its ugly head?

Generally, that stuff is off-topic on this list.

> You see, I can get that many have been harmed by the state.
> 
> Many have made legitimate personal efforts in the past - may be you
> have.
> 
> And may be engaging too closely in such discussions may tempt you from a
> comfortable semi-off the grid existence into action which your
> conscience might compel you, but perhaps your emotions and body really
> don't want to get involved in?
> 
> It's ok to be relatively conservative, compliant and below the radar,
> complying with the state where it would otherwise be quite an
> inconvenience or indeed a

Re: philosophokiddies: Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On 09/03/2016 07:34 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:



> You are awfully sensitive.

Many of us are feeling rather touchy, I think ;)

Re: FOR once and FOR ALL

On 9/3/16 4:21 PM, John wrote:
>
> On September 3, 2016 3:07:40 PM EDT, Xer0Dynamite  
> wrote:
 Read Hack the Law at hackerspaces wiki or New World Order, also at
 that site.  Either the future is made BY us, or it is destroyed by
>> US.
 Which is it?
>>> While this may be true, and human / civilization may or may not yet
>> be
>>> developed enough to be able to think or transcend any given thing,
>> Then let me tell you:  you didn't come from apes -- nobody did.  The
>> fact that there are "DNA" similarities are because there was a human
>> BEFORE mammals existed. 
> Had some recent LSD insights or what ?  I don't even want to ask where this 
> nonsense is coming from...

Let's just say that breaks with reality are off topic.

>
>
> John
>
sdw

Re: FOR once and FOR ALL

2016-09-03 Thread Razer



On 09/03/2016 12:07 PM, Xer0Dynamite wrote:

> Then let me tell you:  you didn't come from apes -- nobody did.

Dude! You insulted my family (guerrillas). Let's box MF!

Rr


>>> Read Hack the Law at hackerspaces wiki or New World Order, also at
>>> that site.  Either the future is made BY us, or it is destroyed by US.
>>> Which is it?
>>
>> While this may be true, and human / civilization may or may not yet be
>> developed enough to be able to think or transcend any given thing,
> 
> Then let me tell you:  you didn't come from apes -- nobody did.  The
> fact that there are "DNA" similarities are because there was a human
> BEFORE mammals existed.  The reason there is continual turmoil in the
> Middle East is because SCIENCE is trying to ERADICATE their TRUTHS.
> The all-seeing-eye is not from the same human stock as those of the
> West.  In fact, there are at least THREE genii of men:  homo, hetero,
> and amphi sapiens.  (Which is probably why they started trying to tack
> on a SECOND sapiens onto homo:  homo sapiens sapiens).  We are NOT
> homo (for those of us who come from mothers).
> 
>> just going on about some topic like polical schools of thought, without
>> bringing any outcomes back to test and bear on what your're trying to
>> transcend,
> 
> Well, now you have it.
> 
>> is offtopic, and isn't going to get you anywhere enlightened anytime soon.
> 
> Better?
> 
> \0x
>

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On 9/3/16 2:41 PM, juan wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 14:14:13 -0700
> "Stephen D. Williams"  wrote:
>
>> On 9/3/16 1:30 PM, juan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 14:41:52 -0400
>>> grarpamp  wrote:
>>>
>>>
 [1]
 "The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing
 cryptography and its effect on society."
>>> incomplete, and you didn't even provide a 'source' 
>>>
>>> plus, it's obvious that you haven't read the 1992 - ~1998
>>> archives of the list. 
>> Archives?  We read it in real time.
>   
>
>   Who - the fuck - is we. My message was addressed to grarpamp. I
>   bet he didn't read it in real time. 

The not (ignorant and immature) crowd.  That's we.

>> If it isn't directly about the access to or effects of cryptography
>> and related security practices, it is off topic.
>
>   Because an absurdist like you says so.

Your definition of absurd is absurd.

>> Early on, the list was largely about making sure that we had
>> unfettered access to encryption and reasoning about the consequences
>> of that.  This was important for ecommerce, the Internet in general,
>> the boundaries of the First Amendment, and as the baseline for the
>> rest of the world.  All kinds of power grabs were in play, directly
>> from the FBI and others.  A weak response might have left us in a
>> position difficult to unravel.  Most of that came out OK, 
>   Exactly what a US establishment puppet woud say. 
>
>   So let's see : 
>
>   1992 :
>
>   "Computer technology is on the verge of providing the ability
>   for individuals and groups to communicate and interact with
>   each other in a totally anonymous manner. " 
>
>   I wonder if Tim May is embarrased at having mande such a
>   blatantly wrong predicion.

He wasn't wrong.  Anonymous communication is fairly easy now.  But for most of 
us most of the time, there is no need.  That's the
real revolution, although off topic.  That we have options and methods is on 
topic.

>   " Interactions over networks will be untraceable, via extensive
>   re- routing of encrypted packets and tamper-proof boxes which
>   implement cryptographic protocols with nearly perfect assurance
>   against any tampering." 
>
>   Where are such networks operating?

Government networks work that way.  Others generally can use less intensive 
solutions to get a good enough result.  Do you think
that anyone savvy and not a target of anti-terrorism has trouble communicating 
securely?

We should keep examining theory, writing code, finding good solutions.  There 
are definitely interesting problems left.  My favorite
thought experiment:

Instead of weak centrally controlled communication systems that can be 
accessed, broken, leaked widely: A distributed system that is
secure from abuse, yet able to expose communication that some important subset 
vote to expose.  Instead of threatening violence,
threaten exposure within the rules of a self-regulating system.  That's on 
topic.

>   What we do have is completely sabotaged hardware courtesy of
>   Intel Inc, a criminal organization that May had something to
>   do, I believe.5but there
> are always ongoing concerns and implications.

Worry about whatever you want to worry about.

>   Oh...
>
>
>> Arguing whether the end of the world is coming or whose fault it is
>> or who is making political or military mistakes is all completely off
>> topic.
>
>   Sure. It's especially important that the political 'mistakes' of
>   the american nazis be completely 'ignored'.
>
Completely off topic.  And ignorant.  But especially off topic.
>   
>
>> sdw
>>
sdw

Re: 4096 bit SSL keys

2016-09-03 Thread Riad S. Wahby

John  wrote:
> The reason I asked: updating a few certs at office recently I nuked
> an older F5 LTM device by installing a 4096 bit key/cert pair - the
> load on the appliance (Linux based) shot up from less than 1 to about
> 30 and became so excruciatingly slow it was nearly impossible to back
> the change out (web GUI and ssh were both nearly non-responsive)..

Multiplying two n-bit numbers naively costs O(n^2) operations (one
can do better with Karatsuba and related tricks), and exponentiation
costs O(n) multiplications (so O(n^3) in total). So assuming the device
is using something like Montgomery multiplication you'd expect about
8x increased load. 30x sounds like there *could* be some other issue
with the implementation, but a significant slowdown is not unexpected.

> On modern hardware, including modern F5s, this problem doesn't
> exist... but from what reading I've done it seems 4096 buys you
> very little anyway ?

Depends who you ask.
https://www.keylength.com/

- NSA Suite B recommends at least 3072 bits.

- BSI says 2048 bits for now, but 3072 bits for 2017 and beyond.

- ANSSI and NIST both say 2048 bits should be fine through 2030.

All of the above recommendations seem to assume the adversary is
classical rather than quantum.

> With a theoretical quantum computer attacking is there any
> significant gain with the bigger key size?

Shor's algorithm runs in time O(n^2) and requires O(n) qubits to
factor an n-bit number. The first doesn't offer much help: you're
only increasing the time by 4x going from 2048 to 4096 bits. I'm not
qualified to comment on how much the second helps because it's not
at all clear to me how the expense/difficulty of building a quantum
computer scales with the number of qubits.

But if you're worried about defending against general-purpose quantum
computers, there are other weak points you should be shoring up (no pun
intended): 256-bit symmetric ciphers, preferably with 256-bit blocks
(so Rijndael-256 rather than AES-256); and ephemeral key exchanges
that don't rely on Diffie-Hellman (Google is deploying RLWE and LWE
schemes in the next coupld years; supersingular isogeny D-H also
looks promising, but there's a recent attack that suggests caution).

In sum: it's a strange and scary new world once general-purpose quantum
computers arrive. In the next few years we're going to see the rollout
of new post-quantum ciphersuites. For now, maybe we should learn to
stop worrying and love the qubit :)

-=rsw

Re: Suggestion to list admins for warning/disclaimer on the web for new subscribers

On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 14:23:48 +0300
Georgi Guninski  wrote:

> * social engineering
> * manipulating opinions
> * profiting from the past reputation of the term cypherpunk
> * killing the list

So which one of those categories are you in Georgi? More
than one? Feel free to add one that describes you.

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 14:41:52 -0400
grarpamp  wrote:


> [1]
> "The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing
> cryptography and its effect on society."

incomplete, and you didn't even provide a 'source' 

plus, it's obvious that you haven't read the 1992 - ~1998
archives of the list. 



> There are reasonable relateds within the realm of "cypherpunk" to
> include *its* computing, tools, privacy, surveillance, law, news,
> literature / art / society, hacking / making, organizations and
> projects, politics, tech, science, solutions,
> crime, etc, etc.
> 
> The occaisional short lived foray under self regulation and restraint
> into untied topics of possible interest to readerbase might be
> considered ok, however NOT to the extent that it's been abused
> ongoing.
> 
> If you're wondering why the "thousands" of people on the list
> aren't "analysing political philosophies" with you, it's because
> YOU'RE FUCKING OFFTOPIC, 


lol - so political philosophy is off topic? Because you say so?

Re: New Intel and AMD Chips Will Only Support Windows 10

On 09/03/2016 09:43 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/09/01/2031247/new-intel-and-amd-chips-will-only-support-windows-10
> Buried in the announcement of the new Kaby Lake (seventh-generation)
> processors and a rash of incoming notebooks set to use them is the
> confirmation that they will have a Windows 10 future. Microsoft has
> been warning people for ages that Kaby Lake will not run on anything
> older than Windows 10, and it looks like AMD's upcoming Zen chip will
> be going the same way. Microsoft said, "As new silicon generations are
> introduced, they will require the latest Windows platform at that time
> for support. This enables us to focus on deep integration between
> Windows and the silicon, while maintaining maximum reliability and
> compatibility with previous generations of platform and silicon." "We
> are committed to working with Microsoft and our ecosystem partners to
> help ensure a smooth transition given these changes to Microsoft's
> Windows support policy," an Intel spokesperson said. "No, Intel will
> not be updating Win 7/8 drivers for 7th Gen Intel Core [Kaby Lake] per
> Microsoft's support policy change." An AMD representative was equally
> neutral. "AMD's processor roadmap is fully aligned with Microsoft's
> software strategy," AMD chief technical officer Mark Papermaster said,
> via a company spokeswoman.
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/3112663/software/microsoft-made-em-do-it-the-latest-kaby-lake-zen-chips-will-support-only-windows-10.html
> 
> Microsoft made 'em do it: The latest Kaby Lake, Zen chips will support
> only Windows 10. No one knows what would happen if you tried to run an
> older OS on one of the new chips.
> 
> 
> http://www.fudzilla.com/news/41482-intel-kaby-lake-will-have-over-100-designs-available-in-q4
> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/08/30/1410207/intel-unveils-full-details-of-kaby-lake-7th-gen-core-series-processors

And yet I gather than Linux kernel 4.5 supports Kaby Lake. So hey ;)

But really, I'm more comfortable with the oldest usable Intel CPUs.

PC-BSD Follows a Rolling Release Model, Gets Renamed To TrueOS

2016-09-03 Thread grarpamp

http://linux.softpedia.com/blog/pc-bsd-operating-system-gets-renamed-to-trueos-follows-a-rolling-release-model-507866.shtml
https://www.trueos.org/2016/09/01/pc-bsd-evolves-into-trueos/

We are proud to announce that the PC-BSD project has evolved into
TrueOS: a modern, cutting-edge distribution of FreeBSD focused on
security, simplicity, and stability for desktops, servers, and beyond!
TrueOS harnesses the best elements of PC-BSD, combines it with
security technologies from OpenBSD, and layers it on top of FreeBSD to
provide a complete system for modern machines.

TrueOS combines the convenience of a rolling release distribution with
the failsafe technology of boot environments, resulting in a system
that is both current and reliable. TrueOS now tracks FreeBSD’s
“Current” branch and merges features from select FreeBSD developer
branches to enhance support for newer hardware and technologies.
Weekly automatic updates keep your system always up-to-date, and all
updates are performed safely within system snapshots called boot
environments. The TrueOS desktop uses the modular yet feature-rich
Lumina desktop environment alongside the new SysAdm administration
suite to provide a reliable desktop experience. SysAdm provides local
and remote management of TrueOS and FreeBSD systems using a
cross-platform graphical client compatible with Windows, Mac, and many
Linux distributions. TrueOS is preconfigured for desktop and server
installations using an intuitive graphical installer, taking the
guesswork out of setting up a new system.

Beta-quality images of TrueOS are currently available on trueos.org
for users to help test in preparation for the upcoming release. These
images demonstrate the rolling-release model and will seamlessly
transition into the release version of TrueOS.

As always, we thank you for your feedback and for being dedicated
members of our community.

TrueOS Features:

Now a rolling release based on FreeBSD-CURRENT.
Weekly package/ISO updates (or more often, as necessary).
Only one package repository. Update when you’re ready and never get
left behind again.
Automatic updates can be enabled/disabled as desired.
All updates are performed in a safe manner using Boot Environments.
Updates never change your live system, as the updated system is not
activated or used until you reboot
Existing PC-BSD/FreeBSD users can use the non-destructive fresh
installation into a new boot environment on non-encrypted ZFS pools.
This mechanism preserves all user data while performing a fresh
install of the operating system and all applications. Simply re-create
any user accounts post-installation to access the data in their home
directories
TrueOS Desktop pre-installs a pure Qt5 system based around the Lumina
desktop and SysAdm.
TrueOS Server pre-installs the SysAdm service for remote system
management, with remote access initially disabled.
A full repository of applications is available for installation through AppCafe.
TrueOS is currently in Beta status. All of the critical functionality
is complete, but we are still migrating some utilities from PC-BSD to
the new TrueOS framework.

Differences from FreeBSD 11.0:

LibreSSL has replaced OpenSSL completely, even in the FreeBSD base.
Linux DRM 4.7 compatibility adds support for the Haswell, Broadwell,
and Skylake Intel graphics.
The entire system, including the FreeBSD base, is managed by pkg.

Re: PC-BSD Follows a Rolling Release Model, Gets Renamed To TrueOS

On 09/03/2016 09:33 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://linux.softpedia.com/blog/pc-bsd-operating-system-gets-renamed-to-trueos-follows-a-rolling-release-model-507866.shtml
> https://www.trueos.org/2016/09/01/pc-bsd-evolves-into-trueos/
> 
> We are proud to announce that the PC-BSD project has evolved into
> TrueOS: a modern, cutting-edge distribution of FreeBSD focused on
> security, simplicity, and stability for desktops, servers, and beyond!
> TrueOS harnesses the best elements of PC-BSD, combines it with
> security technologies from OpenBSD, and layers it on top of FreeBSD to
> provide a complete system for modern machines.

Cool! I will definitely test.

Persona compartmentalization across multiple VMs is vulnerable to WebGL
fingerprinting, so OS diversity is valuable.

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

2016-09-03 Thread Tomasz Rola

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:41:52PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
[...]
> If you're wondering why the "thousands" of people on the list
> aren't "analysing political philosophies" with you, it's because
> YOU'RE FUCKING OFFTOPIC, THEY DON'T WANT TO, and
> they've BLOCKED YOUR ASS.
> 
> But for new people hoping to find a real or even passable cypherpunk
> list, and before even joining and blocking you, but just looking over
> archives, your noise, and the angry abusive trolls, kills it for them.
> 
> Have some respect for that.
> The lot of you.
> Or get off here.

+1

(For the record, I do not block "the lot" but I have no time to read
their continuous rants and thus skip, and skip, and skip...)

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: 4096 bit SSL keys

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 05:29:07PM -0700, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
> John  wrote:
> > The reason I asked: updating a few certs at office recently I nuked
> > an older F5 LTM device by installing a 4096 bit key/cert pair - the
> > load on the appliance (Linux based) shot up from less than 1 to about
> > 30 and became so excruciatingly slow it was nearly impossible to back
> > the change out (web GUI and ssh were both nearly non-responsive)..
> 

I think this could be some crypto/SSL issue, consider asking them.

> Multiplying two n-bit numbers naively costs O(n^2) operations (one
> can do better with Karatsuba and related tricks), and exponentiation
> costs O(n) multiplications (so O(n^3) in total). So assuming the device
> is using something like Montgomery multiplication you'd expect about
> 8x increased load. 30x sounds like there *could* be some other issue
> with the implementation, but a significant slowdown is not unexpected.
>

This applies to straightforward implementation. openssl is
protecting against timing attacks, which additionally slows, but
unless there is bug, the load shouldn't jump so much.

A 2010 thread discusses timings with sign/verify with 100K bit RSA
keys, pycrypt (python + some libraries) is significantly faster than
openssl. The keys/certs are somewhere on the interwebs:
http://openssl-dev.openssl.narkive.com/Y60Bau1J/inconsistent-timings-for-rsa-sign-verify-with-100k-bit-rsa-keys
=
inconsistent timings for rsa sign/verify with 100K bit rsa keys
sign  verify
key1 5min  <1sec
key2 48min 21min
(tested on patched openssl1.0.0a)
=

Besides quantum computers, another threat is private factoring
algorithm, sufficiently faster than the public ones. Say one more
square root in the subexponential stuff or the constants
significantly lower.

Re: Continual Violation of List Charter

On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 18:08:41 -0700
"Stephen D. Williams"  wrote:

> >
> > 
> > http://activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html
> >
> > "Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  anonymous
> > networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations,
> > information markets,  black markets, collapse of governments."
> >
> >
> > What are the last three words there?
> 
> What is the whole paragraph? 

Are you too drunk to read, too stupid to read, or what. Maybe
try ctrl-f? Actually, you must have seen May's signature
hundreds of times? 

Bah, I don't realliy care. And you seem to have ignored my
previous message, which is probably a good thing so that I don't
waste more time replying to a new whole set of absurdities. 

> The only call to action is a non-specific 'arise'.

ha ha ha - just how far can your bad faith go? I'd bet it's
limitless.

Re: The Unsettling Relationship Between Russia and Wikileaks

2016-09-03 Thread Razer



On 09/03/2016 08:28 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/01/world/europe/wikileaks-julian-assange-russia.htm
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3769958/Does-Wikileaks-help-Russia-Information-leaks-Julian-Assange-benefit-Kremlin.html
> 
> Now, Mr. Assange and WikiLeaks are back in the spotlight, roiling the
> geopolitical landscape with new disclosures and a promise of more to
> come.
> 

It's a well known fact... If ur agin Hillary ur a rooshin spyski.

Rr

Re: individual responsibility - was Re: Nationalism vs Globalism

2016-09-03 Thread John Newman

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 12:03:56AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> I wouldn't say monastic. Just private. Read old Bill Burroughs' stuff
> about the Johnson Family.

It's been years since I read Naked Lunch or any of the other cut-up
novels (although I did re-read Junkie and Queer recently)... 

Still, I remember the Johnsons... the correct interpretation of WWJD 
is, of course, What Would a Johnson Do ?

John

Re: NOW [bla bla bla & ha ha ha]

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 10:59:51AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 10:14:29AM +0300, Александр wrote:
> > ... You
> > are just clowns. Hollow people with no principles.
> 
> All of us? Including Zenaan?

When someone expresses their heart, their frustration, their anger,
let's not get sidetracked, let's not take it personally (unless of
course there is constructive criticism that one wishes to personally
take on board).

In general, play the ball, not the man.

Pick on false facts and false arguments, not irrelevancies arising from
emotional outbursts.

It's just a hope I personally have, that we can grow past the personal
shit and get down to business on analysing political philosphies, to
find practical approaches for our modern societies full of schooled
humans.

Let's put our collective thinking caps on...

Then get our collective action boots on...

Re: Open Public Notice re Tor Inc and Jacob Applebaum

2016-09-03 Thread Александр

2016-09-03 11:18 GMT+03:00 Zenaan Harkness :

> Signed: Zenaan Harkness


Signed: Alexandr (Александр)

And i have (not less) claims not only to the "leaders" of Tor, but to the
whole tor/cypherpunk/tech community of passive and unprincipled people, who
call themselves Humans and some of them even "FightersOfJustice". You have
been *(AND STILL!!!)* "neutrally" watching this inquisition trial on
Appelbaum. Thus, you are part of this crime not less than these bloody
inquisitors.

Re: [tor-talk] http://jacobappelbaum.net/