RE: Katy, bar the door
Major Variola (ret)[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] When that trucker kamakazi'd into the state capital in Sacramento last year, they decided to put Jersey barriers up. Hard to do that in the air (Blimps with nets?) The name for these is 'barrage balloons'. They were widely deployed during WW2 against dive bombers and ground-attack fighters. I suspect they are less useful today for this purpose, due to the increased distances of attack, but they might make life harder for cruise missiles and other UAVs. Plan to see them over Baghdad. Peter Trei
RE: Katy, bar the door
Major Variola (ret)[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] When that trucker kamakazi'd into the state capital in Sacramento last year, they decided to put Jersey barriers up. Hard to do that in the air (Blimps with nets?) The name for these is 'barrage balloons'. They were widely deployed during WW2 against dive bombers and ground-attack fighters. I suspect they are less useful today for this purpose, due to the increased distances of attack, but they might make life harder for cruise missiles and other UAVs. Plan to see them over Baghdad. Peter Trei
Re: Katy, bar the door
On Saturday 02 November 2002 06:38 pm, Major Variola (ret) wrote: Around a year ago a small private jet lost contact over the US. A jet was dispatched, saw iced windows, no response to signals. The plane was on autopilot, eventually crashed in the middle of nowhere. The passengers/pilot are believed to have passed out from anoxia. (The autopilot kept them at high altitude too!) I remember that story, I think one of the passengers was some popular professional golfer. -- Neil
Re: Katy, bar the door
On Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 07:41 AM, Neil Johnson wrote: On Saturday 02 November 2002 06:38 pm, Major Variola (ret) wrote: Around a year ago a small private jet lost contact over the US. A jet was dispatched, saw iced windows, no response to signals. The plane was on autopilot, eventually crashed in the middle of nowhere. The passengers/pilot are believed to have passed out from anoxia. (The autopilot kept them at high altitude too!) I remember that story, I think one of the passengers was some popular professional golfer. Payne Stewart.
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 09:32 PM 10/31/2002 -0800, Tim May wrote: I'm missing the gist of this scenario. If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. Which is yet another reason why securing the cockpit door very, very well is the single most important, and cheapest, solution. It won't stop the Tom Clancy scenario (copilot kills pilot, crashes into Congress during State of the Union speech.) But then it won't stop them from shooting down planes with repurposed Stinger missiles, either.
Re: Katy, bar the door
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, John Kelsey wrote: Hmmm. I agree, but if the attackers chose the right time (while the plane's on autopilot) to release the gas or whatever, they might have an hour or two to get through the cockpit door, with no resistance at all from the now-dead passengers or crew. Securing a cockpit door in those While we're discussing irrelevant scenarios, there's a recent trend in avionics buses to off the shelf networking protocols and buses. I much doubt the traffic is encrypted and/or authenticated, so a guy who could blow a small hole through the hull, stick a GPS antenna and/or a camera out of it, and splice into the avionics control bus with a laptop could fly around a bit. Disclaimer: this is just a funky irrelevant scenario, and I agree that the next time it's going to be something different, while everybody is staring hypnotized at flight security.
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 12:35 PM -0800 11/1/02, John Kelsey wrote: At 09:32 PM 10/31/02 -0800, Tim May wrote: ... If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. Which is yet another reason why securing the cockpit door very, very well is the single most important, and cheapest, solution. Hmmm. I agree, but if the attackers chose the right time (while the plane's on autopilot) to release the gas or whatever, they might have an hour or two to get through the cockpit door, with no resistance at all from the now-dead passengers or crew. I expect that in most cases, ATC would be concerned about no contact for an hour. In the modern age, that might be enough to scramble a fighter to go up and take a look. (A number of years ago, there was a case where a pilot, presumably asleep, flew right past Los Angles, over the Pacific ocean, and crashed. ATC was very concerned, but couldn't do anything to wake the pilot.) Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | The principal effect of| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | DMCA/SDMI is to prevent| 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | fair use. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 09:32 PM 10/31/02 -0800, Tim May wrote: ... If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. Which is yet another reason why securing the cockpit door very, very well is the single most important, and cheapest, solution. Hmmm. I agree, but if the attackers chose the right time (while the plane's on autopilot) to release the gas or whatever, they might have an hour or two to get through the cockpit door, with no resistance at all from the now-dead passengers or crew. Securing a cockpit door in those circumstances is *much* harder than securing it against someone with a shorter time to get through, and with the possibility of active resistance from the other side. (I seem to recall hearing some pilot comment that he was very confident of his ability to keep someone from breaking through the door, just by flying so that it's almost impossible to stay on your feet. Certainly, trying to use a hacksaw or cutting torch or something wouldn't be much fun while the pilot did loops or something.) On the other hand, the pilot or copilot pretty much just have to figure out something is wrong and indicate this fact to the people on the ground, and there will be a plane along shortly to shoot them down if necessary. And I don't think this kind of gassing attack would work all that smoothly in practice--some people would be affected before others, due to nonuniformity in the way air is distributed in the cabin and different levels of susceptibility. The combination of a hard-to-break-into cockpit and some kind of response to prevent these planes being used as low-tech cruise missiles seems like a win. Maybe it would make sense to add some kind of remote surveilance of the cockpit, though I imagine this wouldn't be too popular with pilots, and they'd definitely need to secure the channel properly. --Tim May --John Kelsey, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 12:35 PM -0800 11/1/02, John Kelsey wrote: At 09:32 PM 10/31/02 -0800, Tim May wrote: ... If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. Which is yet another reason why securing the cockpit door very, very well is the single most important, and cheapest, solution. Hmmm. I agree, but if the attackers chose the right time (while the plane's on autopilot) to release the gas or whatever, they might have an hour or two to get through the cockpit door, with no resistance at all from the now-dead passengers or crew. I expect that in most cases, ATC would be concerned about no contact for an hour. In the modern age, that might be enough to scramble a fighter to go up and take a look. (A number of years ago, there was a case where a pilot, presumably asleep, flew right past Los Angles, over the Pacific ocean, and crashed. ATC was very concerned, but couldn't do anything to wake the pilot.) Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | The principal effect of| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | DMCA/SDMI is to prevent| 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | fair use. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
Re: Katy, bar the door
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, John Kelsey wrote: Hmmm. I agree, but if the attackers chose the right time (while the plane's on autopilot) to release the gas or whatever, they might have an hour or two to get through the cockpit door, with no resistance at all from the now-dead passengers or crew. Securing a cockpit door in those While we're discussing irrelevant scenarios, there's a recent trend in avionics buses to off the shelf networking protocols and buses. I much doubt the traffic is encrypted and/or authenticated, so a guy who could blow a small hole through the hull, stick a GPS antenna and/or a camera out of it, and splice into the avionics control bus with a laptop could fly around a bit. Disclaimer: this is just a funky irrelevant scenario, and I agree that the next time it's going to be something different, while everybody is staring hypnotized at flight security.
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 10:49 AM 11/2/02 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote: (A number of years ago, there was a case where a pilot, presumably asleep, flew right past Los Angles, over the Pacific ocean, and crashed. ATC was very concerned, but couldn't do anything to wake the pilot.) Around a year ago a small private jet lost contact over the US. A jet was dispatched, saw iced windows, no response to signals. The plane was on autopilot, eventually crashed in the middle of nowhere. The passengers/pilot are believed to have passed out from anoxia. (The autopilot kept them at high altitude too!) When that trucker kamakazi'd into the state capital in Sacramento last year, they decided to put Jersey barriers up. Hard to do that in the air (Blimps with nets?)
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 09:32 PM 10/31/2002 -0800, Tim May wrote: On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 05:09 PM, Steve Schear wrote: Unfortunately, there are many gasses which kill or disable with only a small dosage (e.g., VX). Unless the cabins are equipped with toxic air sensors (possible in a few years with all the biochip work underway) I think the masks may be be too little too late. I'm missing the gist of this scenario. If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. This may be more than sufficient to place a final nail in the airline industry coffin. Killing NY sheeple in high rise buildings isn't the only way to hurt us. steve
Re: Katy, bar the door
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Steve Schear wrote: This may be more than sufficient to place a final nail in the airline industry coffin. Killing NY sheeple in high rise buildings isn't the Doesn't have to be overnight. It would be already enough to arm the pilots and issue an SOP to lock the doors before the plane starts rolling, and keep them locked until the plane stops. But this means depriving the pilots of stewardess company in flight, and installing toilets in the cockpits, so it's a hard one. only way to hurt us. Well, the next one is synchronous-release nerve gas in the subway rush hour, a big stadium, or a nuke in Manhattan. Kinda difficult to achieve enough scale otherwise using biological agents. You need a lot of weapon-grade stuff, or get lucky to achieve sustainable burn within a high-density high-interaction area, which restricts you to very exotic agents. Doesn't appear very likely.
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 09:32 PM 10/31/02 -0800, Tim May wrote: ... If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. Which is yet another reason why securing the cockpit door very, very well is the single most important, and cheapest, solution. Hmmm. I agree, but if the attackers chose the right time (while the plane's on autopilot) to release the gas or whatever, they might have an hour or two to get through the cockpit door, with no resistance at all from the now-dead passengers or crew. Securing a cockpit door in those circumstances is *much* harder than securing it against someone with a shorter time to get through, and with the possibility of active resistance from the other side. (I seem to recall hearing some pilot comment that he was very confident of his ability to keep someone from breaking through the door, just by flying so that it's almost impossible to stay on your feet. Certainly, trying to use a hacksaw or cutting torch or something wouldn't be much fun while the pilot did loops or something.) On the other hand, the pilot or copilot pretty much just have to figure out something is wrong and indicate this fact to the people on the ground, and there will be a plane along shortly to shoot them down if necessary. And I don't think this kind of gassing attack would work all that smoothly in practice--some people would be affected before others, due to nonuniformity in the way air is distributed in the cabin and different levels of susceptibility. The combination of a hard-to-break-into cockpit and some kind of response to prevent these planes being used as low-tech cruise missiles seems like a win. Maybe it would make sense to add some kind of remote surveilance of the cockpit, though I imagine this wouldn't be too popular with pilots, and they'd definitely need to secure the channel properly. --Tim May --John Kelsey, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Katy, bar the door
At 09:32 PM 10/31/2002 -0800, Tim May wrote: On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 05:09 PM, Steve Schear wrote: Unfortunately, there are many gasses which kill or disable with only a small dosage (e.g., VX). Unless the cabins are equipped with toxic air sensors (possible in a few years with all the biochip work underway) I think the masks may be be too little too late. I'm missing the gist of this scenario. If the attackers/hijackers cannot get into the cockpit and gain control of the plane, then the most they can do with disabling/lethal/nerve gases is to cause the plane to essentially crash randomly...which kills a few hundred people, but probably not many more. This may be more than sufficient to place a final nail in the airline industry coffin. Killing NY sheeple in high rise buildings isn't the only way to hurt us. steve
