Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Luca Boccassi]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 at 17:14, Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
>
> Hi Luca,
>
> (1-month lag explained by heavy post-release burnout, which I'm fighting
> hard(er) today to make sure Helmut can make progress.)
>
> Luca Boccassi  (2023-07-18):
> > So, I want to propose to move the package to exclusively team
> > maintained, drop the Uploaders field, leave only the Maintainer field
> > with the current team as-is, and ask anybody who wants to help maintain
> > it to join the installer-team on Salsa and just send changes as MRs,
> > help review/merge them, and do normal uploads, without marking them as
> > NMU nor feeling the need to treat them as NMUs - no need to contact
> > uploaders to ask permissions, delayed uploads, or anything like that.
>
> As others have already pointed out: team uploads are just fine, anyone
> (listed or not in Uploaders) can upload, and we're happy to add people
> to the team on Salsa.
>
> I suspect some people in Debian still expect to retain full “ownership”
> on “their” packages, but it really looks to me the project in general
> moved to a less territorial approach a number of years ago.
>
> As for d-i packages and debootstrap in particular, see my digression
> in #1049898 (https://bugs.debian.org/1049898#15).
>
>
> Also and again: thanks for your work on debootstrap since last year.

Ok, I've added myself to uploaders as suggested here and in:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1049898#15
https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2023/07/msg00147.html

I'll keep doing reviews of MRs and do minor cleanups and maintenance
where I can.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi

Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Cyril Brulebois]

Hi Luca,

(1-month lag explained by heavy post-release burnout, which I'm fighting
hard(er) today to make sure Helmut can make progress.)

Luca Boccassi  (2023-07-18):
> So, I want to propose to move the package to exclusively team
> maintained, drop the Uploaders field, leave only the Maintainer field
> with the current team as-is, and ask anybody who wants to help maintain
> it to join the installer-team on Salsa and just send changes as MRs,
> help review/merge them, and do normal uploads, without marking them as
> NMU nor feeling the need to treat them as NMUs - no need to contact
> uploaders to ask permissions, delayed uploads, or anything like that.

As others have already pointed out: team uploads are just fine, anyone
(listed or not in Uploaders) can upload, and we're happy to add people
to the team on Salsa.

I suspect some people in Debian still expect to retain full “ownership”
on “their” packages, but it really looks to me the project in general
moved to a less territorial approach a number of years ago.

As for d-i packages and debootstrap in particular, see my digression 
in #1049898 (https://bugs.debian.org/1049898#15).


Also and again: thanks for your work on debootstrap since last year.


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Christian Kastner]

On 2023-07-19 16:45, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> That doesn't solve the problem, given I explicitly do _not_ want to
> claim ownership of the package for myself. Just provide occasional
> contributions given it's under-mantained at the moment.

Quoting the Developer's Reference 5.11.7 [1]:

> Sometimes you are fixing and/or updating a package because you are member of 
> a packaging team (which uses a mailing list as Maintainer or Uploader; see 
> Collaborative maintenance) but you don't want to add yourself to Uploaders 
> because you do not plan to contribute regularly to this specific package. If 
> it conforms with your team's policy, you can perform a normal upload without 
> being listed directly as Maintainer or Uploader. In that case, you should 
> start your changelog entry with the following line:
> 
> * Team upload

Best,
Christian

[1] 
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.en.html#nmus-vs-team-uploads

Re: Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Luca Boccassi]

> > It's great that it works for you and for some teams, but it doesn't
> > work for me and for others. For me, if someone else is listed in
> > Uploaders, then it's their property and I'm not touching it unless
> > absolutely necessary.
> 
> Look, you have an interpretation of Uploaders that is wildly
> different
> from how others in the Project perceive it, and IMO in outright
> conflict
> with the Policy. That is not a sound basis for the change you
> propose.
> 
> Regardless, why not solve the problem by simply by adding yourself to
> Uploaders, as others have suggested? Or ask one of the current
> Uploaders
> to do it, if that is more agreeable to you?

That doesn't solve the problem, given I explicitly do _not_ want to
claim ownership of the package for myself. Just provide occasional
contributions given it's under-mantained at the moment.

-- 
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi


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Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Christian Kastner]

On 2023-07-19 13:04, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> It's great that it works for you and for some teams, but it doesn't
> work for me and for others. For me, if someone else is listed in
> Uploaders, then it's their property and I'm not touching it unless
> absolutely necessary.

Look, you have an interpretation of Uploaders that is wildly different
from how others in the Project perceive it, and IMO in outright conflict
with the Policy. That is not a sound basis for the change you propose.

Regardless, why not solve the problem by simply by adding yourself to
Uploaders, as others have suggested? Or ask one of the current Uploaders
to do it, if that is more agreeable to you?

Best,
Christian

Re: Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Luca Boccassi]

> > I am aware of that, that's not the point I'm trying to make. The
> point
> > is that having anyone explicitly named assigns ownership and is a
> > barrier for others to contribute.
> 
> FWIW, I never understood it that way, at all.
> 
> In the context of a team, "Uploaders" just lets me know about people
> who
> consider themselves to be among the people regularly working on this
> package, so a good contact point.
> 
> But if Maintainers is a team, and I'm in that team, I'm free to
> upload,
> whether in Uploaders or not.
> 
> And if I'm a frequent uploader, I add myself to Uploaders.
> 
> A good example is the Debian Python Team, where the policy [1]
> explicitly states that "[anyone in the Team] can commit to the Git
> repository and upload as needed".

It's great that it works for you and for some teams, but it doesn't
work for me and for others. For me, if someone else is listed in
Uploaders, then it's their property and I'm not touching it unless
absolutely necessary.

-- 
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi


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Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 09:49:34PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> debootstrap's d/control lists the Maintainer as the "Debian Install
> System Team" - that is great. There are also 3 Uploaders listed: Colin
> Watson, Steve McIntyre and Hideki Yamane.
> 
> The last contribution and upload by Colin were in 2021 and 2015,
> respectively, by Steve was it was 2016 and 2017, and Hideki and 2021
> and 2020. Again, not a critique, just data!

I can't speak for others, but I don't object to being removed from
Uploaders here.

> So, I want to propose to move the package to exclusively team
> maintained, drop the Uploaders field, leave only the Maintainer field
> with the current team as-is, and ask anybody who wants to help maintain
> it to join the installer-team on Salsa and just send changes as MRs,
> help review/merge them, and do normal uploads, without marking them as
> NMU nor feeling the need to treat them as NMUs - no need to contact
> uploaders to ask permissions, delayed uploads, or anything like that.
> 
> Again, I really can't stress this enough - dropping the Uploaders is
> not because I think the uploaders have done anything wrong, or as
> punishment, or anything else, but simply and solely to remove all
> barriers stopping or hindering anybody else from doing team
> maintenance.

FWIW, while I don't object to this change for my own part, I also don't
have the same understanding as you of what Uploaders means in a
team-maintained package.  To my mind, Uploaders is just a hint as to
which team members are likely to have the most useful context about a
package.  It makes sense to keep that list up to date, for sure, but a
package is no less team-maintained just because it happens to have an
Uploaders field.

-- 
Colin Watson (he/him)  [cjwat...@debian.org]

Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Christian Kastner]

Hi,

On 2023-07-19 10:30, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> I am aware of that, that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point
> is that having anyone explicitly named assigns ownership and is a
> barrier for others to contribute.

FWIW, I never understood it that way, at all.

In the context of a team, "Uploaders" just lets me know about people who
consider themselves to be among the people regularly working on this
package, so a good contact point.

But if Maintainers is a team, and I'm in that team, I'm free to upload,
whether in Uploaders or not.

And if I'm a frequent uploader, I add myself to Uploaders.

A good example is the Debian Python Team, where the policy [1]
explicitly states that "[anyone in the Team] can commit to the Git
repository and upload as needed".

Best,
Christian

[1] 
https://salsa.debian.org/python-team/tools/python-modules/blob/master/policy.rst

Re: Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Luca Boccassi]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 at 01:18, Charles Plessy  wrote:
>
> Le Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:00:20AM +0100, Luca Boccassi a écrit :
> >
> > Because the intention is not to claim the package for myself (far from
> > it! I already maintain too many...), but to open it up for uploads to
> > anybody who is part of the Salsa team (or wants to join it), removing
> > any barriers.
>
> Hi Luca,
>
> `dch --team` is your friend :) https://wiki.debian.org/TeamUpload

I am aware of that, that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point
is that having anyone explicitly named assigns ownership and is a
barrier for others to contribute.

> There must be at least one personal email address in either Maintainer
> or Uploader 
> (https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s-maintainer),
> so if the current Uploaders agree, replacing them would be a service to
> the team, not a claim of ownership!

Is that a technical reason? IE, would dak or other tools refuse it if
not? It would seem strange, given it can't possibly know what's
"personal" and what's a team. Policy is just policy and can be changed
if it's not adequate anymore.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi

Re: Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:00:20AM +0100, Luca Boccassi a écrit :
> 
> Because the intention is not to claim the package for myself (far from
> it! I already maintain too many...), but to open it up for uploads to
> anybody who is part of the Salsa team (or wants to join it), removing
> any barriers.

Hi Luca,

`dch --team` is your friend :) https://wiki.debian.org/TeamUpload

There must be at least one personal email address in either Maintainer
or Uploader 
(https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s-maintainer),
so if the current Uploaders agree, replacing them would be a service to
the team, not a claim of ownership!

Have a nice day,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy Nagahama, Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan
Debian Med packaging team http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tooting from home  https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy
- You  do not have  my permission  to use  this email  to train  an AI -

Re: Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Luca Boccassi]

> > Thoughts?
> 
> why don't you just add yourself and Dimitri to Uploaders: and be
> done? :)

Because the intention is not to claim the package for myself (far from
it! I already maintain too many...), but to open it up for uploads to
anybody who is part of the Salsa team (or wants to join it), removing
any barriers.

-- 
Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi


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Re: Moving debootstrap to fully team maintained (drop Uploaders field)

[Holger Levsen]

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 09:49:34PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> Thoughts?

why don't you just add yourself and Dimitri to Uploaders: and be done? :)


-- 
cheers,
Holger

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