Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015, at 16:28, Daniel Pocock wrote: Thanks for all this feedback Looking through the feedback and comments elsewhere, a) most people are using some manual configuration to deal with this b) it needs to be tweaked in more than one place (e.g. xrdb + Iceweasel + other places) Try Debian stretch - it mostly works out of the box with GNOME 3.16 without tweaking anything. I am running on: dimensions:3200x1800 pixels (846x476 millimeters) with internal display and simple FullHD on external and the only thing that needs restarts between switches are browsers (both Firefox and Chromium), the rest of the GNOME switches automatically based on the plugged-in monitor. O. -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
❦ 12 août 2015 15:30 +0200, Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org : Try Debian stretch - it mostly works out of the box with GNOME 3.16 without tweaking anything. I am running on: dimensions:3200x1800 pixels (846x476 millimeters) with internal display and simple FullHD on external and the only thing that needs restarts between switches are browsers (both Firefox and Chromium), the rest of the GNOME switches automatically based on the plugged-in monitor. Chromium triggers a change when it detects a RandR event (while all other apps are listening to the appropriate GTK or Gnome property). In my case, it seems that Chrome is slow enough to handle that when all other properties to be up-to-date, so it adapts automatically on DPI change. But maybe this is not your case. -- In the Spring, I have counted 136 different kinds of weather inside of 24 hours. -- Mark Twain, on New England weather signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 11/08/15 23:17, John Goerzen wrote: There are many things that seem to not handle differences in DPI. Fonts are just the start. What about taskbars and taskbar icons, which become tiny at certain DPIs? We seem to be using pixel heights in these a lot. I think we're going in circles now, but to recap, the state-of-the-art here seems to be the same approach as Apple's Retina displays: the desktop environment or runtime chooses a scaling factor (usually an integer) for real pixels per logical pixel, and considers most application-requested pixel sizes to be measured in logical pixels, not real pixels. Icon rendering, widget rendering with Cairo and so on can use the real pixels to get sub-logical-pixel resolution, but the layout is done in terms of logical pixels (and because the scale factor is an integer, everything is whole-pixel-aligned, so widgets aren't blurred). CSS has a similar approach, defining a CSS pixel (the px unit) to be one or more real pixels. I know Gtk and Qt support this; Gtk can do non-integer scale factors (although they are probably a bad idea), Qt only does integer scale factors. In the case of Gtk, the scale factor is exposed as a setting in gnome-tweak-tool. Font sizes are relative to the scale factor, so if your laptop is really 176dpi and you're using a 2x scale factor, you might set X's DPI value to around 88 (96 might be close enough). S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55ca84c8.2020...@debian.org
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 08/08/2015 01:58 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: I recently started using a 4K display with Debian jessie and GNOME shell The hardware setup was quite straightforward as I chose to buy a new There is also an understated problem - DPI changing during a session, or even different monitors having different DPI in a multihead situation. This seems to be particularly poorly supported, but is rather common. My laptop is 1920x1080 in a 12.5 display, with approximately 176DPI. The external monitor on its docking station is a more conventional DPI. There are many questions here: * Simplest: When I use one monitor at the time, does the OS do the right thing with the only enabled display device changes to a device with a different DPI? (No, it doesn't; there is no automatic DPI changing.) * Then: Does the OS do the right thing when there are two non-mirrored devices with differing DPIs? (Not really) * Does the OS do the right thing when a connected device changes configured resolution, changing DPI? * Finally: Does the OS do the right thing when a display is mirrored across two devices with diverging DPIs? What even IS the right thing here? Probably stick with the DPI of the device that got in first. But what is that device when both an internal and external display are connected at boot? (Note: DE here is XFCE) There are many things that seem to not handle differences in DPI. Fonts are just the start. What about taskbars and taskbar icons, which become tiny at certain DPIs? We seem to be using pixel heights in these a lot. John graphics card with 4K support and a relatively new monitor. The graphics card and monitor both support DisplayPort 1.2 so I just hook them up with the standard cable. The graphics card vendor supplies a proprietary driver but everything else is currently running using the packages from jessie. However, I've come up against the DPI issues. The actual DPI is about 131x137 on a 32 display. xdpyinfo reports 96x96 It looks like there has been a history of bug reports about DPI in both the Xorg server itself and some individual applications. Some web sites suggested using gnome-tweak-tool to change the window scaling factor. It only appears to accept integer values and changing it from the default of 1 to 2 makes the fonts too big. So, is there any strategy for HiDPI with Debian? Is a BTS tag needed to track such issues perhaps? Or is it already dealt with in unstable and people just have to wait for it? My general feeling is that the 32 4K display was a worthwhile purchase and it definitely lets me improve my workflow. For example, I can now have all my communication tools (Icedove, IRC and others) arranged in a single virtual desktop, none of them overlap each other and I don't have to use alt-tab to switch between them. In another virtual desktop I no longer need to run Eclipse at full screen, I can just give it two thirds of the screen and use the rest for testing things. However, all fonts are really tiny, they are readable and even pleasant to look at but I would probably like to see them just a little bigger. Regards, Daniel
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 10/08/15 23:29, Simon Kainz wrote: Am 2015-08-09 um 09:22 schrieb Vincent Bernat: ❦ 8 août 2015 18:11 -0700, Josh Triplett j...@joshtriplett.org : This handles the majority of programs I use. A few notable exceptions: gitk scales up some but not all of its fonts (reported as a bug), Celestia's and stellarium's in-rendering text (reported as bugs), old X utilities like xcalc/xconsole/xedit/xdvi/xmag/xman/xmessage (not really worth reporting, better to replace them with modern tools), and anything that relies heavily on toolbars like gimp/inkscape/audacity (tools and other UI elements not scaled up, since they don't use text; unfortunate but expected, as they don't have non-integer scaling). I don't have any such problems with Gimp and Inkscape and Xft/DPI set to 144 (both through xrdb and XSETTINGS). All GTK apps are behaving correctly, notably Gimp and Inkscape. It seems GTK is doing complex stuff to determine the scaling to be applied, so many things may influence it. Other apps fail to understand how GTK works and try to emulate it by piling hacks together (notably Chromium). I could show you at Debconf to spot a configuration difference. I am also very interested in this (at Debconf), as i own a MacBook Pro running Jessie with no problems so far, except some very tiny checkboxes/radiobuttons in firefox and tiny buttons in gimp/inkscape. Is there probably a Debian/HiDPI wiki/website with information about how to set up specific apps under specific Desktop Environments? I just created a page where people could copy in some of the details from this thread: https://wiki.debian.org/MonitorDPI -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJVyaARAAoJEOm1uwJp1aqDoGYP/ArBFAWDnUOPJFKnofnmJtHl Kys8JvU6oyY/d+oUdbpHbgB8wn9DmKBybqRzSlWuFiO/lJzp+vwG9Flcz/SCc6d+ 3CPwiYR7US3ycqgI87SbWxUUjhLbWlTcygCx9nlFiRoeJV8Fm7H3JnSubhyId/nS EJOR13BPmPjbz2n0TgmJxibghQQB9AhoLVkPfZLvhnGCD/ds/8PfzXaraAQ0EH1d jYyptslM6ucJH7bp8pKyMbZ+5zD2wfZrtQWUMF5uZFZ5eSwQqYUcvGmIWk0n2sOU Z9wXkk/XI0ioRoqyCFpY76Gss9gt5k+cFTR4aHP0fD/lia6A/Z0TYTD+9wO+BTbx dDqcG+idO1N13KFHzRanbP1seSbTSgFNMObFxCRMB2g0yCeSqCEhX+xclumy+r/K hOu4Uxeq5z2KkfWe1wuGIhVNFbjVTwt++hvyHMqHokKkl6quAhNhlpWknuOTCFSs f7TNt7reNlGnPgadASJ8PZEuGysOM5l9XpFHUWbGHDBYpokCJE+UYleYYTCmE4LB 4IEEWl+2l8QZSKQqan7Wsf1myhvMazl2M5y1P/fp34OKcEWBcsKjHuI5dzHqxcb3 ui9N0PpkVbzr1Az1/G1JEpgDGEyI2G7fw2PzS20RZ7cZYhkZx4obZi/hZaQdYaC2 HrFRzfLSBS0MFhJelDFJ =gBjc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c9a011.6030...@pocock.pro
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On Aug 09 2015, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.pro wrote: d) there is some concern that not all displays report DPI accurately and so it wasn't considered safe to trust the value from the display and so people started using the hard-coded values in GNOME at some point in the past - is that still a valid argument today though? No, the argument (at least from the Gnome people) is that DPI (as reported by xrandr) is a useless metric to determine the proper font rendering size. Their main argument is that their is no API to report different DPIs for different screens, and it doesn't factor in things like the distance of the user from the screen, or simply a user's preference to have bigger/smaller fonts. Therefore, they started ignoring X11 dpi completely and added their own Gnome DPI (which, as far as I know, still doesn't support different DPI values for different displays). There is a truly gigantic bugzilla issue about this, but I don't have the exact URL anymore. (At some point I suggested to drop the Gnome DPI and instead use a Gnome DPI scale factor that's applied on top of the X11 DPI but there was never a response. Most likely the issue is a lot more complicated, or the bug has become completely useless to because of its size). Best, -Nikolaus -- GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id: 0xD113FCAC3C4E599F Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.« -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87zj1x6x85@vostro.rath.org
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am 2015-08-09 um 09:22 schrieb Vincent Bernat: ❦ 8 août 2015 18:11 -0700, Josh Triplett j...@joshtriplett.org : This handles the majority of programs I use. A few notable exceptions: gitk scales up some but not all of its fonts (reported as a bug), Celestia's and stellarium's in-rendering text (reported as bugs), old X utilities like xcalc/xconsole/xedit/xdvi/xmag/xman/xmessage (not really worth reporting, better to replace them with modern tools), and anything that relies heavily on toolbars like gimp/inkscape/audacity (tools and other UI elements not scaled up, since they don't use text; unfortunate but expected, as they don't have non-integer scaling). I don't have any such problems with Gimp and Inkscape and Xft/DPI set to 144 (both through xrdb and XSETTINGS). All GTK apps are behaving correctly, notably Gimp and Inkscape. It seems GTK is doing complex stuff to determine the scaling to be applied, so many things may influence it. Other apps fail to understand how GTK works and try to emulate it by piling hacks together (notably Chromium). I could show you at Debconf to spot a configuration difference. I am also very interested in this (at Debconf), as i own a MacBook Pro running Jessie with no problems so far, except some very tiny checkboxes/radiobuttons in firefox and tiny buttons in gimp/inkscape. Is there probably a Debian/HiDPI wiki/website with information about how to set up specific apps under specific Desktop Environments? Simon. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVyRewAAoJEBy08PeN7K/pqbEP/1C4+eoLNqmllcKSULLt6Db4 wqPI4Ul/HOlh4ApUNZKft8e83GQIId88HMDl3+tfdaOsacJ2qjVA1Z35qRKNLs7D Ej07zVxs3nx2RhrgXKVL2Niy7KcGCZ+AK3nc5HhrA2bmWEdtv3+GbjiyMKdJ6hl3 0CggcGrn2RS6246lIX6JoOlmhqnWKlNmU+4AVmsh50UKBrGQsj3IKLO34JBVYy0m OZ/ezRr3ErCxng1baOT7lihGLDm5jWnY01J6Llcjes4LLjg/UcMYxIoUDfLB0mGB pH0fF6DpXAcrIiScopINQHmX24+4ltwrApWXu6az8j4mB+w30bTu0Q3wcbuQKiC8 sLQb9YbfJF44rdQSO0ojXJrM/vJWlUOUaYdqu++faie04S/QJB4KeyuKtMGBQMuh Sl2Km5XbPz0msox/DrG/03oaqidBo90q1sbUH3GcPBm2BvlvtLYJDYmaoSD/oM25 zjaXTqojRGFKNPyaAoKwAqUu5CeSzqSc/kQOGl8FYBtqqZeXTqKIWIXq+ZpX0Fce eoToFrWjuXLDBaP0ebqiA1cRueaDEJsBB5TkzpkE21p1Trm1nkk5KpP34/zLgKQE ExVopujmALLDi6mi7+0EnQ6yC9kc+jUieT2dIV+dzE5X6jXpkYBFmXD8iXk3U3Rh HaZnRTLoNgr/u6ryJOP3 =YZWS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c917b0.3060...@debian.org
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
❦ 10 août 2015 23:29 +0200, Simon Kainz ska...@debian.org : This handles the majority of programs I use. A few notable exceptions: gitk scales up some but not all of its fonts (reported as a bug), Celestia's and stellarium's in-rendering text (reported as bugs), old X utilities like xcalc/xconsole/xedit/xdvi/xmag/xman/xmessage (not really worth reporting, better to replace them with modern tools), and anything that relies heavily on toolbars like gimp/inkscape/audacity (tools and other UI elements not scaled up, since they don't use text; unfortunate but expected, as they don't have non-integer scaling). I don't have any such problems with Gimp and Inkscape and Xft/DPI set to 144 (both through xrdb and XSETTINGS). All GTK apps are behaving correctly, notably Gimp and Inkscape. It seems GTK is doing complex stuff to determine the scaling to be applied, so many things may influence it. Other apps fail to understand how GTK works and try to emulate it by piling hacks together (notably Chromium). I could show you at Debconf to spot a configuration difference. I am also very interested in this (at Debconf), as i own a MacBook Pro running Jessie with no problems so far, except some very tiny checkboxes/radiobuttons in firefox and tiny buttons in gimp/inkscape. I may have been overly enthusiastic. Since I am only at 1.5 scale, tiny icons are not really my concern: See Gimp and Inkscape: http://postimg.org/image/g5i6rfgsz/ So, there are more stuff than Xft/DPI to adjust. I suppose that setting org.gnome.desktop.interface scaling-factor to 2 may help. However, I am unable to test as it is not based on XSETTINGS but it's just a gnome-control-center property. -- Having nothing, nothing can he lose. -- William Shakespeare, Henry VI signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 10/08/15 00:17, Simon McVittie wrote: On 09/08/15 17:02, Vincent Bernat wrote: While it is possible to derive the true DPI setting from the resolution and the dimension ... except for when the stated dimensions in the display's EDID are full of lies and claim that it is 4cm x 3cm, or 16cm x 9cm, or even 0cm x 0cm. See also https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-October/157760.html and its surrounding thread - admittedly that was a few years ago. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but I suspect hardware manufacturers haven't got a whole lot better at this since then. This brings a few thoughts to mind - I realize opinions may differ and there would be some work involved in any of these: - could there be some prompt on the first X startup or the first time a new screen is detected, asking the user to confirm DPI or dimensions? - could X use detected values that are in some range considered to be sane and if some users are unhappy, encourage them to complain to the monitor vendor? To put this another way, isn't it better to favor those monitors that do things correctly? - is there any Linux recommended monitor list or would there be value in such a list? Correct EDID data could be a criteria for inclusion on the list? - could people crowdsource a database of monitor specs, maybe combined with some setup wizard? Some of this is obviously not Debian-specific either. Does any other OS keep a list of known monitor dimensions for example? Regards, Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c8738f@pocock.pro
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 2015-08-09 18:02:05 +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote: While it is possible to derive the true DPI setting from the resolution and the dimension, I don't think that's what users would be expecting. On a laptop, you'll want smaller fonts than on a desktop because the screen is usually nearer from your eyes. For example, on my laptop, the screen is 310mm x 174mm for 2560 x 1440. Strictly speaking, DPI is 210. However, I am setting it to 144 because at 210, everything is far too big. On my desktop station, I am using 23 monitors (510mm x 290mm). It's 96 DPI and it is just fine. The best choice really depends on the user, but what's important is that the default is not too small, otherwise the machine is hardly usable just after installation. One needs to have some time to be able to configure it (see below). What could be a goal is to only have one universal setting. This setting could be Xft.dpi since most applications work just fine with that. However, this hijacks the original purpose of this setting, but I think most people would like to have a bigger interface if they need bigger fonts. This makes sense at least for icons attached to text (e.g. in menus). There could (should) also be separate configuration, but it would be nice if the global size of the UI followed the default font size. Hardcoded icon size is unacceptable. For instance, see https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=789273 concerning lightdm-gtk-greeter (one can change the font size, but not the size of the icons, which are tiny on high-dpi screens). On 2015-08-10 11:49:03 +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: On 10/08/15 00:17, Simon McVittie wrote: On 09/08/15 17:02, Vincent Bernat wrote: While it is possible to derive the true DPI setting from the resolution and the dimension ... except for when the stated dimensions in the display's EDID are full of lies and claim that it is 4cm x 3cm, or 16cm x 9cm, or even 0cm x 0cm. See also https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-October/157760.html and its surrounding thread - admittedly that was a few years ago. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but I suspect hardware manufacturers haven't got a whole lot better at this since then. Unfortunately the default dpi setting to 96 is also completely wrong: text is hardly readable on high-dpi screens. The screen definition (WxH in pixels) is at least correct, so that the default dpi could be based on that. For instance, if one has a 4K (3840×2160) screen, then probably either this is a high-dpi screen or the physical dimensions are large (e.g. 32), but in which case the screen may also be far from the user. So, choosing a large dpi value (e.g. 192) makes sense in both cases. This brings a few thoughts to mind - I realize opinions may differ and there would be some work involved in any of these: - could there be some prompt on the first X startup or the first time a new screen is detected, asking the user to confirm DPI or dimensions? There's still the problem that you need to display the prompt with large enough font. One probably doesn't need a prompt. Just a sane default and an easy way to change it. - could X use detected values that are in some range considered to be sane and if some users are unhappy, encourage them to complain to the monitor vendor? To put this another way, isn't it better to favor those monitors that do things correctly? IMHO, the screen definition should be OK to choose a default dpi value (as said above). -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: https://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: https://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150810142004.ga6...@ypig.lip.ens-lyon.fr
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 2015-08-08 20:58:37 +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
So, is there any strategy for HiDPI with Debian? Is a BTS tag needed to
track such issues perhaps? Or is it already dealt with in unstable and
people just have to wait for it?
I have similar problems with a 3200x1800 15 screen. Here's my
Xresources file for high DPI:
! X resources for high-definition screens
! This will define the unit for the font sizes below.
Xft.dpi:132
Emacs*font: Monospace 10
Emacs*geometry: 80x48
! With the following, the width should be $((11*COLUMNS+13)) pixels;
! in contrast, the fixed = 6x13 bitmap font is typically used on a
! low-definition screen, giving a width of $((6*COLUMNS+13)) pixels.
XTerm*faceName: Monospace
XTerm*faceSize: 10
! For xterm menus. This font is large enough, but a bit ugly.
XTerm*font: -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1
! The fontList resource is not documented, but found in xpdf/XPDFApp.cc.
Xpdf*fontList: -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1
Xpdf.initialZoom: 200
and my firefox.cfg file:
// IMPORTANT: Start your code on the 2nd line
var hdef = getenv(X11_HDEF);
if (hdef = 2400) {
pref(layout.css.devPixelsPerPx, 1.77);
} else {
pref(layout.css.devPixelsPerPx, -1.0);
}
--
Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: https://www.vinc17.net/
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: https://www.vinc17.net/blog/
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
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Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 09/08/15 09:22, Vincent Bernat wrote: ❦ 8 août 2015 18:11 -0700, Josh Triplett j...@joshtriplett.org : This handles the majority of programs I use. A few notable exceptions: gitk scales up some but not all of its fonts (reported as a bug), Celestia's and stellarium's in-rendering text (reported as bugs), old X utilities like xcalc/xconsole/xedit/xdvi/xmag/xman/xmessage (not really worth reporting, better to replace them with modern tools), and anything that relies heavily on toolbars like gimp/inkscape/audacity (tools and other UI elements not scaled up, since they don't use text; unfortunate but expected, as they don't have non-integer scaling). I don't have any such problems with Gimp and Inkscape and Xft/DPI set to 144 (both through xrdb and XSETTINGS). All GTK apps are behaving correctly, notably Gimp and Inkscape. It seems GTK is doing complex stuff to determine the scaling to be applied, so many things may influence it. Other apps fail to understand how GTK works and try to emulate it by piling hacks together (notably Chromium). I could show you at Debconf to spot a configuration difference. Thanks for all this feedback Looking through the feedback and comments elsewhere, a) most people are using some manual configuration to deal with this b) it needs to be tweaked in more than one place (e.g. xrdb + Iceweasel + other places) c) there is at least some stuff that is video-card specific, e.g. NVIDIA offers some driver options[1] for it and it is not clear if these simply supplement the Xorg options like DisplaySize or if the NVIDIA driver breaks DisplaySize functionality in some way such that an alternative has to be provided d) there is some concern that not all displays report DPI accurately and so it wasn't considered safe to trust the value from the display and so people started using the hard-coded values in GNOME at some point in the past - is that still a valid argument today though? Does anybody feel strongly enough that manual DPI configuration shouldn't be necessary any more, just as it is no longer necessary to manually create X ModeLines for most monitors? Would this be a worthwhile goal for stretch? It would appear that having a consistent approach to this is not just useful for the newer range of UHD and laptop displays, but also for any Debian derivatives or blends that are interested in more exotic displays such as mobile screens or smart TVs. 1. http://us.download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/173.14.12/README/appendix-b.html#UseEdidDpi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c76373.5030...@pocock.pro
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
❦ 9 août 2015 16:28 +0200, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.pro : b) it needs to be tweaked in more than one place (e.g. xrdb + Iceweasel + other places) Yes, that's unfortunate. If GTK people could explain Iceweasel and Chromium people how they should handle it, it would lessen the amount of manual configuration needed. Using only XSETTINGS (or XSETTINGS + xrdb) would unify the configuration and allow automatic change when switching From one DPI settings to another. I don't know the Iceweasel case, but for Chromium, it seems they are pretty clueless and just add more hacks until people stop complaining. d) there is some concern that not all displays report DPI accurately and so it wasn't considered safe to trust the value from the display and so people started using the hard-coded values in GNOME at some point in the past - is that still a valid argument today though? The hard coding is done in X at 96 dpi and it is still true today. If you change DPI settings in X (with -dpi), you can check that the display dimensions is adjusted appropriately, making your change useless. XRANDR reports the appropriate values and applications wishing to use it should use that instead. See: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115 http://pastebin.com/vtzyBK6e As you said, Nvidia is special here. Does anybody feel strongly enough that manual DPI configuration shouldn't be necessary any more, just as it is no longer necessary to manually create X ModeLines for most monitors? Would this be a worthwhile goal for stretch? While it is possible to derive the true DPI setting from the resolution and the dimension, I don't think that's what users would be expecting. On a laptop, you'll want smaller fonts than on a desktop because the screen is usually nearer from your eyes. For example, on my laptop, the screen is 310mm x 174mm for 2560 x 1440. Strictly speaking, DPI is 210. However, I am setting it to 144 because at 210, everything is far too big. On my desktop station, I am using 23 monitors (510mm x 290mm). It's 96 DPI and it is just fine. What could be a goal is to only have one universal setting. This setting could be Xft.dpi since most applications work just fine with that. However, this hijacks the original purpose of this setting, but I think most people would like to have a bigger interface if they need bigger fonts. -- Habit is habit, and not to be flung out of the window by any man, but coaxed down-stairs a step at a time. -- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
On 09/08/15 17:02, Vincent Bernat wrote: While it is possible to derive the true DPI setting from the resolution and the dimension ... except for when the stated dimensions in the display's EDID are full of lies and claim that it is 4cm x 3cm, or 16cm x 9cm, or even 0cm x 0cm. See also https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-October/157760.html and its surrounding thread - admittedly that was a few years ago. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but I suspect hardware manufacturers haven't got a whole lot better at this since then. As has been noted elsewhere in this thread, there are actually two values that desktop environments are trying to use: taking GNOME as an example because that's the one I know best, it will happily scale fonts to any dpi value of your choice (even if it isn't an integer multiple of 96), because fonts are designed to be scalable anyway; but it will only apply integer numbers of real pixels per density-independent pixel, because non-integer ratios there would make all the widgets, window decoration, icons, etc. blurry, and I think there are some more technical reasons to prefer integer ratios. Qt 5 similarly only supports integer numbers of real pixels per dp. I believe Android supports arbitrary multiples of 0.5 real pixels per dp, although I don't know how commonly-used those are in practice. Density-independent pixels (dp) are the Android term; I don't know whether there's a different conventional name is elsewhere. CSS pixels are basically the same thing as Android's dp. S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c7d160.8030...@debian.org
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
❦ 8 août 2015 18:11 -0700, Josh Triplett j...@joshtriplett.org : This handles the majority of programs I use. A few notable exceptions: gitk scales up some but not all of its fonts (reported as a bug), Celestia's and stellarium's in-rendering text (reported as bugs), old X utilities like xcalc/xconsole/xedit/xdvi/xmag/xman/xmessage (not really worth reporting, better to replace them with modern tools), and anything that relies heavily on toolbars like gimp/inkscape/audacity (tools and other UI elements not scaled up, since they don't use text; unfortunate but expected, as they don't have non-integer scaling). I don't have any such problems with Gimp and Inkscape and Xft/DPI set to 144 (both through xrdb and XSETTINGS). All GTK apps are behaving correctly, notably Gimp and Inkscape. It seems GTK is doing complex stuff to determine the scaling to be applied, so many things may influence it. Other apps fail to understand how GTK works and try to emulate it by piling hacks together (notably Chromium). I could show you at Debconf to spot a configuration difference. -- No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
Daniel Pocock daniel at pocock.pro writes: However, I've come up against the DPI issues. The actual DPI is about 131x137 on a 32 display. xdpyinfo reports 96x96 I've recently had the problem that some applications like Kontact/KDEPIM suddenly use the wrong fixedmisc font for eMail displaying, and tracked it down to X reporting 91 dpi (IIRC, not sure, could have been 96), but my actual dpi is closer to 72/75 than to 96/100. I added a line… xrandr --dpi 80 … to my ~/.xsessionrc after interactively trying out the value in which things come out “right”. Note that this, interestingly enough, does not match my real dpi value either, but it's the one causing fonts not to go haywire. YMMV, and this is probably the wrong fix, but I thought to share anyway, as it's new (we used to specify display size in XF86Config to fix this, some time ago). Maybe keithp has got some insight on this? bye, //mirabilos PS: the fixedmisc font I intend to use for all my non-proportional font needs is the 9x18/18x18ko one (amended with many more glyphs), in case this matters.
Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
I recently started using a 4K display with Debian jessie and GNOME shell The hardware setup was quite straightforward as I chose to buy a new graphics card with 4K support and a relatively new monitor. The graphics card and monitor both support DisplayPort 1.2 so I just hook them up with the standard cable. The graphics card vendor supplies a proprietary driver but everything else is currently running using the packages from jessie. However, I've come up against the DPI issues. The actual DPI is about 131x137 on a 32 display. xdpyinfo reports 96x96 It looks like there has been a history of bug reports about DPI in both the Xorg server itself and some individual applications. Some web sites suggested using gnome-tweak-tool to change the window scaling factor. It only appears to accept integer values and changing it from the default of 1 to 2 makes the fonts too big. So, is there any strategy for HiDPI with Debian? Is a BTS tag needed to track such issues perhaps? Or is it already dealt with in unstable and people just have to wait for it? My general feeling is that the 32 4K display was a worthwhile purchase and it definitely lets me improve my workflow. For example, I can now have all my communication tools (Icedove, IRC and others) arranged in a single virtual desktop, none of them overlap each other and I don't have to use alt-tab to switch between them. In another virtual desktop I no longer need to run Eclipse at full screen, I can just give it two thirds of the screen and use the rest for testing things. However, all fonts are really tiny, they are readable and even pleasant to look at but I would probably like to see them just a little bigger. Regards, Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c6515d.8040...@pocock.pro
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
❦ 8 août 2015 20:58 +0200, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.pro : The hardware setup was quite straightforward as I chose to buy a new graphics card with 4K support and a relatively new monitor. The graphics card and monitor both support DisplayPort 1.2 so I just hook them up with the standard cable. The graphics card vendor supplies a proprietary driver but everything else is currently running using the packages from jessie. However, I've come up against the DPI issues. The actual DPI is about 131x137 on a 32 display. xdpyinfo reports 96x96 It looks like there has been a history of bug reports about DPI in both the Xorg server itself and some individual applications. Some web sites suggested using gnome-tweak-tool to change the window scaling factor. It only appears to accept integer values and changing it from the default of 1 to 2 makes the fonts too big. So, is there any strategy for HiDPI with Debian? Is a BTS tag needed to track such issues perhaps? Or is it already dealt with in unstable and people just have to wait for it? My general feeling is that the 32 4K display was a worthwhile purchase and it definitely lets me improve my workflow. For example, I can now have all my communication tools (Icedove, IRC and others) arranged in a single virtual desktop, none of them overlap each other and I don't have to use alt-tab to switch between them. In another virtual desktop I no longer need to run Eclipse at full screen, I can just give it two thirds of the screen and use the rest for testing things. However, all fonts are really tiny, they are readable and even pleasant to look at but I would probably like to see them just a little bigger. The support of HiDPI in Debian is pretty good with a few exceptions. Which DE are you using? I don't know exactly how this work with Gnome, but the solution is to keep X.org at 96dpi (most apps don't care, but some I know better than everyone needs that, for example Chromium) and to change Xft DPI to an appropriate value (I suggest 144 in your case, better try to round a bit). You can either set Xft.dpi with xrdb. Any new application should now be scaled correctly (most apps will scale fonts _and_ the interface). You can also set Xft/DPI in XSETTING. The advantage of doing that is that all applications will notice the change. In this case, this depends of your DE. If you don't have a big one, you can use xsettingsd with the following line: Xft/DPI 147456 (it's 144*1024) The best resource is ArchLinux wiki: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI However, don't try to apply everything. -- Make the coupling between modules visible. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan Plauger) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian with HiDPI / 4K displays
Daniel Pocock wrote: The actual DPI is about 131x137 on a 32 display. [...] Some web sites suggested using gnome-tweak-tool to change the window scaling factor. It only appears to accept integer values and changing it from the default of 1 to 2 makes the fonts too big. So, is there any strategy for HiDPI with Debian? Is a BTS tag needed to track such issues perhaps? Or is it already dealt with in unstable and people just have to wait for it? I have a similar experience with a 2560x1440 14 screen (210 DPI). Using a scale factor of 2 would make it act like a 720p screen, making everything far too large. However, I find that GNOME's font-based scaling works fine for me: in gnome-tweak-tool, I changed Fonts - Scaling Factor to 1.4. That also sets the X property Xft.dpi to 144 (see xrdb -query), which many non-GNOME programs look at too. Firefox doesn't, but it has its own setting that even supports non-integer scaling of the entire UI, so I changed its layout.css.devPixelsPerPx to 1.4 as well. This handles the majority of programs I use. A few notable exceptions: gitk scales up some but not all of its fonts (reported as a bug), Celestia's and stellarium's in-rendering text (reported as bugs), old X utilities like xcalc/xconsole/xedit/xdvi/xmag/xman/xmessage (not really worth reporting, better to replace them with modern tools), and anything that relies heavily on toolbars like gimp/inkscape/audacity (tools and other UI elements not scaled up, since they don't use text; unfortunate but expected, as they don't have non-integer scaling). - Josh Triplett -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150809011134.GA22883@x
