Hi Russ,
On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 10:01:26AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> This is a great question. I'm not sure I have a great answer,
(i think you do)
your comments on this have definitly been much more than what I hoped or
rather anticipated, back then when I sent my private reply to you...
Holger Levsen writes:
> today i'm not sure whether it's worth rehashing this on the list (and
> which part to quote also, but thats a minor detail), so I'll just reply
> here to you now.
> a.) I can see how my reply (replies?) in this thread were negative like this
> and for all the good rea
Hi,
I'm sorry to bring up this again, but I'm pretty sure it's useful ;)
As in, I send the following reply to Russ (in private) and he replied
in private and we agreed to re-post our conversation to this list. So here
we go:
(below the quote is what I've sent to Russ two weeks ago. He'll re-post
Hi Ross,
thank you very much for voicing this. I've been struggling with
myself to find the time and energy to reply and support Neal's
effort to make Discourse an option for Debian, and also support
Sam's concerns regarding the summary.
My lack of computer time lately plus the amount of negative
Some private discussion with Thomas made me understand why he felt
ill-at-ease with my email, and I do think it requires a clarification,
as I actually screwed up my phrasing.
I wrote
Le jeudi 16 avril 2020 à 22:58:08+0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue a écrit¬:
> As you seem perfectly aware of, bringing
On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 08:37:48AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
Scott,
I think we both agree that the reaction to the apology was unnecessarily
harsh, but this:
> I feel like you are intentionally twisting my words,
is not helping.
> but I
On Friday, April 17, 2020 5:07:04 AM EDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Le jeudi 16 avril 2020 à 18:39:06-0400, Scott Kitterman a écrit :
> > When you say you are acting "in the name of the Community Team", you don't
> > get to claim you're just like everyone else. I agree that any project
> > memb
Le Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:47:36AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
>
> - If someone obviously apologizes in public, by all means,
>take his/her word for it. Yeah, people lie sometimes (I
>know *I* do), but don't assume a lie unless you have
>strong evidence for it
Hi Tomás
I found
Le vendredi 17 avril 2020 à 11:47:36+0200, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> > Indeed, because it's our job to remind the CoC and try to have it
> > respected. And it's regarding this job that I intervened. I'm happy
> > that we agree on this and therefore don't really understand how you
> > could have
On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:07:04AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
[...]
> As said, the weight I'm giving to my act is perfectly in the scope of
> our delegation: we will act upon this should the matter persist.
I have no qualms with you intervening here.
I think before you intervended there
Le jeudi 16 avril 2020 à 18:39:06-0400, Scott Kitterman a écrit :
> When you say you are acting "in the name of the Community Team", you don't
> get
> to claim you're just like everyone else. I agree that any project member (or
> list participant for that matter) can and should take steps to im
On Thursday, April 16, 2020 6:22:32 PM EDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Le 16 avril 2020 23:17:46 GMT+02:00, Scott Kitterman
a écrit :
> >On Thursday, April 16, 2020 4:58:08 PM EDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> >...
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I'm contacting you both publicly (via debian-project@) a
Le 16 avril 2020 23:17:46 GMT+02:00, Scott Kitterman a
écrit :
>On Thursday, April 16, 2020 4:58:08 PM EDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm contacting you both publicly (via debian-project@) and privately
>(on
>> your GMail address) in the name of the Community Team following th
On Thursday, April 16, 2020 4:58:08 PM EDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm contacting you both publicly (via debian-project@) and privately (on
> your GMail address) in the name of the Community Team following this
> subthread.
Sigh.
To quote from the recent DPL delegation for your
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:26:48AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> >
> > I spoke up, a couple people said I missed the mark.
> > If I had gotten the mark right, I have high confidence that several
> > more people would have chimed in at that point.
> > So, yeah, thanks for calling out that I appear
Le mercredi 15 avril 2020 à 13:02:53-0400, rhkra...@gmail.com a écrit :
> I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended. See (or don't see) below.
>
> On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:49:56 AM Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:22:29AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > This mus
❦ 15 avril 2020 12:45 +01, Neil McGovern:
>> Would you be willing to list out which points it is from the given
>> "cons" category which you see as positives?
>
> I'd really rather not at this stage, as I'm already seemingly having to
> spend time talking about how Discourse is set up, rather tha
On 16.04.20 20:18, Olek Wojnar wrote:
On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:19 PM Ross Vandegrift
mailto:rvandegr...@debian.org>> wrote:
Sorry for not speaking up, but I agreed with your concern. I thought
the summary overemphasized cons and dismissed the pros.
I'm sending this in case thi
On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:19 PM Ross Vandegrift
wrote:
> Sorry for not speaking up, but I agreed with your concern. I thought
> the summary overemphasized cons and dismissed the pros.
>
> I'm sending this in case this is a situation where only negative
> feedback is voiced. I think Neil's expe
On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:26:48AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> I spoke up, a couple people said I missed the mark.
> If I had gotten the mark right, I have high confidence that several
> more people would have chimed in at that point.
> So, yeah, thanks for calling out that I appeared to be in th
> "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
Scott> Sam,
Scott> I think you've missed the mark here, except perhaps the why
Scott> another service section at the end.
Scott> Personally I'm in the "I think it's unsuitable for Debian"
Scott> camp and I see my concerns represented.
On 2020-04-15 13:45, Neil McGovern wrote:
> If there is sufficient pushback, I'll delete the instance, move on with
> my life, and conclude that no one in Debian can possibly try and
> innovate or do new things unless it is either:
> * 100% optional for people, or
> * made completely compatable wit
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:39:31AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> writes:
> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:45:13PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote:
>
> >> If there is sufficient pushback, I'll delete the instance, move on with
> >> my life, and conclude that no one in Debian can possibly try and
> >> inno
Karsten Merker writes:
> I don't agree with your assessment that there has been hostility against
> Neil. There has been criticism - sometimes strongly worded criticism
> that one might perhaps call hostility - against replacing our
> mailinglists by something that quite a number of people in th
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:50 AM Neil McGovern wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:12:21AM -0400, Brian Gupta wrote:
> > Do we have to start by making it a mandatory switch? I don't feel consensus
> > to
> > move to discourse will be impossible in the long term but it's normal f
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:12 PM wrote:
>
> Wow, just wow! I don't suppose you want to quote all of our off-list
> correspondence? (I don't even remember all of it, but ... wow!)
Again, it is all fake. There was no correspondence. I never wrote to
this person.
I'm sure I should not have responded to him (Felix) at all, but have learned
my lesson (at least, I hope so).
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 03:06:48 PM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 02:38:43 PM Felix Lechner wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:09 AM wrote:
> > > > I t
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 02:38:43 PM Felix Lechner wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:09 AM wrote:
> > > I think far better than moderation is learning. And that's what we're
> > > doing now... no?
> >
> > Thank you!
>
> That response is disingenuous. rhkra...@gmail.com just threatened me
>
Hi,
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:09 AM wrote:
>
> > I think far better than moderation is learning. And that's what we're doing
> > now... no?
>
> Thank you!
That response is disingenuous. rhkra...@gmail.com just threatened me
off-list: "You'd like to have somebody out in the world angry [?]"
Kin
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 02:12:21 PM Dan Purgert wrote:
> I read it as "oh what was that old thing on the internet ..." and took
> it that you were trying to think of "Godwin's Law", but couldn't come up
> with the name in the midst of writing the email.
That is exactly right -- getting old is
On 4/15/20 11:06 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 01:27:01 PM to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
Was this message moderated? This author should be banned.
I think far better than moderation is learning. And that's
On 4/15/20 10:02 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended. See (or don't see) below.
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:49:56 AM Holger Levsen wrote:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:22:29AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
This must be one of those days when I feel
On Apr 15, 2020, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended. See (or don't see) below.
> [...]
> I sincerely apologize! I never intended my comment to express any
> approval of [...].
I read it as "oh what was that old thing on the internet ..." and took
it that you
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 01:27:01 PM to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> > Was this message moderated? This author should be banned.
>
> I think far better than moderation is learning. And that's what we're doing
> now... no?
Thank you!
Greetings,
* to...@tuxteam.de (to...@tuxteam.de) wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:06 AM wrote:
> > >
> > > To me, the idea of bringing up Hitler in a conversation is crazy /
> > > humorous,
> > > even though his actions are fa
writes:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:45:13PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote:
>> If there is sufficient pushback, I'll delete the instance, move on with
>> my life, and conclude that no one in Debian can possibly try and
>> innovate or do new things unless it is either:
>> * 100% optional for people,
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 5:48 AM Neil McGovern wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 07:22:53AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> > Would you be willing to list out which points it is from the given
> > "cons" category which you see as positives?
> >
> The point of this Discourse instance is to try and se
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:06 AM wrote:
> >
> > To me, the idea of bringing up Hitler in a conversation is crazy / humorous,
> > even though his actions are far from humorous.
>
> Was this message moderated? This author sho
Hi,
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:06 AM wrote:
>
> To me, the idea of bringing up Hitler in a conversation is crazy / humorous,
> even though his actions are far from humorous.
Was this message moderated? This author should be banned. May Hitler's
name be obliterated.
Kind regards
Felix Lechner
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 01:02:53PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended. See (or don't see) below.
[...]
> I sincerely apologize! I never intended my comment to express any approval
> of
> Hitler or a comparison of systemd to Hitler.
Happens. It's ju
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 01:02:53PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended. See (or don't see) below.
[...]
thanks.
> (I probably dug myself in deeper :-(
nah, I dont think so. You made some mistake and apologized, so at least I will
be glad to move on.
I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended. See (or don't see) below.
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:49:56 AM Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:22:29AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > This must be one of those days when I feel the need to respond to more
> > emails than I u
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 03:49:56PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:22:29AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
> > (2) maybe bringing systemd into a discussion is (should be considered)
> > something just as disrepectful (harmful) as bringing Hitler into a
> > discus
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:22:29AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> This must be one of those days when I feel the need to respond to more emails
> than I usually do.
but why?
> (2) maybe bringing systemd into a discussion is (should be considered)
> something just as disrepectful (harmful) a
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:16 AM Brian Gupta wrote:
>
> How do you feel about making discourse.debian.org ... available as
> an alternative for new lists? [We] can have another discussion later
> about migrating existing lists.
Yay, thanks for speaking up for a compromise!
Hi Brian,
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:12:21AM -0400, Brian Gupta wrote:
> Do we have to start by making it a mandatory switch? I don't feel consensus to
> move to discourse will be impossible in the long term but it's normal for
> human
> beings to resist change, especially during a time of otherw
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 10:12:21 AM EDT Brian Gupta wrote:
...
> Do we have to start by making it a mandatory switch? I don't feel consensus
> to move to discourse will be impossible in the long term but it's normal
> for human beings to resist change, especially during a time of otherwise
> g
This must be one of those days when I feel the need to respond to more emails
than I usually do.
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 08:14:41 AM The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2020-04-15 at 07:45, Neil McGovern wrote:
> > If there is sufficient pushback, I'll delete the instance, move on
> > with my life, and
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:48 AM Neil McGovern wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 07:22:53AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> > Would you be willing to list out which points it is from the given
> > "cons" category which you see as positives?
> >
>
> I'd really rather not at this stage, as I'm alread
On 2020-04-15 at 07:45, Neil McGovern wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 07:22:53AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
>
>> Would you be willing to list out which points it is from the given
>> "cons" category which you see as positives?
>
> I'd really rather not at this stage, as I'm already seemingly h
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:45:13PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote:
[...]
> If there is sufficient pushback, I'll delete the instance, move on with
> my life, and conclude that no one in Debian can possibly try and
> innovate or do new things unless it is either:
> * 100% optional for people, or
> * m
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 07:22:53AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> Would you be willing to list out which points it is from the given
> "cons" category which you see as positives?
>
I'd really rather not at this stage, as I'm already seemingly having to
spend time talking about how Discourse is set
On 2020-04-15 at 04:05, Neil McGovern wrote:
> I'm just going to correct things that are factually incorrect here,
> rather than label them as pros/cons. I feel a number of things you
> have put in the cons column are advantages.
I am surprised. Reviewing Ihor's post after Sam's response, with th
I'm just going to correct things that are factually incorrect here,
rather than label them as pros/cons. I feel a number of things you have
put in the cons column are advantages.
On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 01:31:56PM -0700, Ihor Antonov wrote:
> - Not 100% GPL - some javascript scripts loaded into us
On April 14, 2020 9:42:33 PM UTC, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> "Ihor" == Ihor Antonov writes:
>
>
>
>Ihor> I want to leave this as is without final verdict. Everyone
>Ihor> should make their own.
>
>I really appreciate the idea of summarizing the thread; I agree with
>you
>it has gotten l
On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:48 PM Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> > "Ihor" == Ihor Antonov writes:
>
>
>
> Ihor> I want to leave this as is without final verdict. Everyone
> Ihor> should make their own.
>
> I really appreciate the idea of summarizing the thread; I agree with you
> it has gotten
> "Ihor" == Ihor Antonov writes:
Ihor> I want to leave this as is without final verdict. Everyone
Ihor> should make their own.
I really appreciate the idea of summarizing the thread; I agree with you
it has gotten long.
A good summary is one where people on all sides of the issue
The thread about Discourse is getting too long (both in user and project
lists) and a lot of people's reactions start to repeat.
So I just wanted to summarize so far everything that people have stated so far
in a concise manner, and I invite everyone to complete this pros/cons list.
(items are i
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