On Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 06:48:39PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
The best thing is to be an anarchist!
apt-get install anarchism :)
--
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing. --- Malcolm X
Celejar writes:
I can say the same about the very institution of private property; it
creates a monopoly (only I have the legal right to use a particular
piece of property) where none would otherwise exist, and that is its
very purpose.
You and I cannot eat the same apple. We can both have
On 8/8/12, John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
I can say the same about the very institution of private property; it
creates a monopoly (only I have the legal right to use a particular
piece of property) where none would otherwise exist, and that is its
very purpose.
You
On 8/8/12, John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
I wrote:
Thus you have a monopoly on the reproduction of copies of your work.
Celajar writes:
Okay, but this is veering close to sophistry; I can also say that any
private ownership of property is monopolistic, since it gives the
owner a
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 00:55:14 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 02 aug 12, 09:41:59, Celejar wrote:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, as we're just disagreeing
over irreducible first principles. I, and the law, think that it is
reasonable and fair that
On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:45:56 -0400
Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Jo, 02 aug 12, 09:41:59, Celejar wrote:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, as we're just disagreeing
over irreducible
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 00:59:08 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 01 aug 12, 20:23:35, Celejar wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:45:27 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 01 aug 12, 00:59:29, Yaro Kasear wrote:
On 07/31/2012 01:42 PM,
Celejar writes:
Agreed, but I'm not sure how this effects our disagreement about the
legitimacy of the (current) intellectual regime. If they feel the
value is less than the amount charged by the creators to recoup their
costs, they're free not to purchase the works.
They don't purchase the
Celejar writes:
...I lean libertarian...
So do I, which is the basis of my criticism of copyright.
...if you don't like the terms of the contract, don't sign it...
Right. If you don't want those to whom you sell copies of your work to
make additional copies induce them to sign a contract in
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 09:23:50 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
Agreed, but I'm not sure how this effects our disagreement about the
legitimacy of the (current) intellectual regime. If they feel the
value is less than the amount charged by the creators to recoup
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 09:34:19 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
...I lean libertarian...
So do I, which is the basis of my criticism of copyright.
...if you don't like the terms of the contract, don't sign it...
Right. If you don't want those to whom you
I wrote:
If you don't want those to whom you sell copies of your work to make
additional copies induce them to sign a contract in which they agree
not to do so.
Celejar writes:
But property rights are treated as fundamental, even (especially!) in
libertarian thought.
And copies are
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 11:11 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
I wrote:
If you don't want those to whom you sell copies of your work to make
additional copies induce them to sign a contract in which they agree
not to do so.
Celejar writes:
But property rights are treated as fundamental, even
Ralf writes:
The best thing is to be an anarchist!
Anarchy is impossible. Some jerk will always jump up and crown himself
king. Government is not a necessary evil: it is an inevitable one. The
best we can hope for is to minimize it.
--
John Hasler
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
On Ma, 07 aug 12, 09:39:54, Celejar wrote:
to be very important/inovative/etc. actually had a hard time getting
published. How many others did not make it?
Not sure what you're saying here - do you mean that the creators
couldn't publish because there was insufficient perceived interest
On Ma, 07 aug 12, 09:47:11, Celejar wrote:
They do - but the first quote in your message was Yaro's. I guess you
decided to respond to a quote of mine as cited in his email, instead of
responding directly to my email. In such a case, I generally delete the
first name in the chain, but I
Andrei writes:
I did not question the legitimacy, but the future-proof-ness of a
business relying on distributing copies.
Right: these are orthogonal issues. Whether one views the current
copyright regime as legitimate or not, I don't think it has a future.
The work of the publishing industry
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 12:24 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
Ralf writes:
The best thing is to be an anarchist!
Anarchy is impossible. Some jerk will always jump up and crown himself
king. Government is not a necessary evil: it is an inevitable one. The
best we can hope for is to minimize it.
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 11:11:07 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
I wrote:
If you don't want those to whom you sell copies of your work to make
additional copies induce them to sign a contract in which they agree
not to do so.
Celejar writes:
But property rights are treated
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:43:54 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Ma, 07 aug 12, 09:39:54, Celejar wrote:
to be very important/inovative/etc. actually had a hard time getting
published. How many others did not make it?
Not sure what you're saying here - do you
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:45:33 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Ma, 07 aug 12, 09:47:11, Celejar wrote:
They do - but the first quote in your message was Yaro's. I guess you
decided to respond to a quote of mine as cited in his email, instead of
responding directly
Celejar writes:
You are perfectly free to create your own work and compete with me for
the same audiences and dollars; the only thing you can't do is copy
_my_ work.
Thus you have a monopoly on the reproduction of copies of your work.
--
John Hasler
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 18:03 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
Celejar writes:
You are perfectly free to create your own work and compete with me for
the same audiences and dollars; the only thing you can't do is copy
_my_ work.
Thus you have a monopoly on the reproduction of copies of your work.
Celejar writes: the only thing you can't do is copy
Btw. I'm also against copying, if somebody makes knowledge available for
free (as in bear) and other folks copy it, close the free knowledge
and take money!
I don't like money! I prefer exchange and altruism. Yes, bankers have
nothing to
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 18:03:29 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
You are perfectly free to create your own work and compete with me for
the same audiences and dollars; the only thing you can't do is copy
_my_ work.
Thus you have a monopoly on the reproduction of
I wrote:
Thus you have a monopoly on the reproduction of copies of your work.
Celajar writes:
Okay, but this is veering close to sophistry; I can also say that any
private ownership of property is monopolistic, since it gives the
owner a monopoly on the use of some particular piece of
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 20:52:13 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
I wrote:
Thus you have a monopoly on the reproduction of copies of your work.
Celajar writes:
Okay, but this is veering close to sophistry; I can also say that any
private ownership of property is monopolistic,
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 23:09 -0400, Celejar wrote:
I do think we may have a language barrier here.
Indeed, my fault, since my English is broken. If you and I would try to
detect a consensus, we could hire a translator, but cooperation between
countries seems to be impossible. If we won't have
On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:50:37 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
...so just because the marginal cost of duplication is zero, why is is
unreasonable for it to charge per copy?
It is entirely reasonable for them to charge whatever they see fit for
copies they
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Celejar cele...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:50:37 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
...so just because the marginal cost of duplication is zero, why is is
unreasonable for it to charge per copy?
It is entirely
Brad Alexander writes:
The thing I don't understand is that the content producers bang on
about intellectual property which, if I am understanding correctly
(and I believe I am) is the *content*.
Intellectual property is a right established by statute. In the case
of copyright it is the
Ahoj,
Dňa Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:00:26 -0400 Brad Alexander stor...@gmail.com
napísal:
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Celejar cele...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:50:37 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
...so just because the marginal cost of
On Aug 2, 2012, at 9:00 AM, Brad Alexander wrote:
The thing I don't understand is that the content producers bang on
about intellectual property which, if I am understanding correctly
(and I believe I am) is the *content*. The music or movie or whatever.
I claim there's a lot more to it than
Glenn writes:
If I buy an audio cassette of something, I've paid for the content.
No. You've paid for the audio cassette.
It seems reasonable to me that I have the right to make a copy of what
I bought with machinery I own.
I agree. The law does not. Making copies of the work [1] is the
On Jo, 02 aug 12, 09:41:59, Celejar wrote:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, as we're just disagreeing
over irreducible first principles. I, and the law, think that it is
reasonable and fair that the creator of certain types of intellectual /
cultural artifacts should be entitled
On Mi, 01 aug 12, 20:23:35, Celejar wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:45:27 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 01 aug 12, 00:59:29, Yaro Kasear wrote:
On 07/31/2012 01:42 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:30:50 +0300
Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com
On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 14:25:22 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
...
They are not your masters. You don't need their stuff. Make your own
or get it from people who share your values.
This is dogma. There is a great deal of software, and certainly other
cultural material (books,
Celejar writes:
This is dogma.
It's just advice to someone who seems to think that owning copyrights
makes the publishers his masters.
There is a great deal of software, and certainly other cultural
material (books, movies, music) out there which has no FLOSS
equivalent, and I don't have the
On 08/02/2012 11:00 AM, Brad Alexander wrote:
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Celejarcele...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:50:37 -0500
John Haslerjhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
...so just because the marginal cost of duplication is zero, why is is
unreasonable for it
On Aug 2, 2012, at 5:17 PM, John Hasler wrote:
It's just advice to someone who seems to think that owning copyrights
makes the publishers his masters.
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have used that word. I wasn't thinking that
Disney is my master. I was thinking of lawyers and politicians --
the
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 02 aug 12, 09:41:59, Celejar wrote:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, as we're just disagreeing
over irreducible first principles. I, and the law, think that it is
reasonable and fair that the
On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:17:56 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
This is dogma.
It's just advice to someone who seems to think that owning copyrights
makes the publishers his masters.
Fair enough.
There is a great deal of software, and certainly other cultural
On 03/08/12 02:09, Celejar wrote:
On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:17:56 -0500
John Haslerjhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
Celejar writes:
This is dogma.
It's just advice to someone who seems to think that owning copyrights
makes the publishers his masters.
Fair enough.
There is a great deal of
On Mi, 01 aug 12, 00:59:29, Yaro Kasear wrote:
On 07/31/2012 01:42 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:30:50 +0300
Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
money can
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:45:27 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 01 aug 12, 00:59:29, Yaro Kasear wrote:
On 07/31/2012 01:42 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:30:50 +0300
Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar
Celejar writes:
...so just because the marginal cost of duplication is zero, why is is
unreasonable for it to charge per copy?
It is entirely reasonable for them to charge whatever they see fit for
copies they make, but why should your producers be able to charge for
copies other people make
On 08/01/2012 08:50 PM, John Hasler wrote:
Celejar writes:
...so just because the marginal cost of duplication is zero, why is is
unreasonable for it to charge per copy?
It is entirely reasonable for them to charge whatever they see fit for
copies they make, but why should your producers be
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:39:12 +0200
gaffa deb...@folkemagt.dk wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:45:34 -0400
Celejar cele...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:57 -0400
Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com wrote:
...
Personally I think one of the biggest appeals of Debian (and of
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:30:50 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
money can be made with FLOSS, just that it's pointless to try to sell
copies of one's
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 04:29:05 -0400
Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com wrote:
...
As for Celejar's point about selling licenses - he's wants to make money
only from direct sales. That's his problem. In every business you have
to look for ways to make money. Direct sales is just one method and its
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:16:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 20 iul 12, 04:29:05, Gary Dale wrote:
On 20/07/12 03:30 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
On 07/31/2012 01:42 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:30:50 +0300
Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
money can be made with FLOSS, just that it's pointless to
On Thursday 19 July 2012 04:45:34 Celejar wrote:
Debian users need to understand that attempts to encumber knowledge for
profit are inherently wrong.
I don't wholly agree here. I have a very strong preference for FLOSS,
for many reasons, but I fully respect the rights of others to develop,
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
money can be made with FLOSS, just that it's pointless to try to sell
copies of one's software if it's freely copyable. The examples you give
are all of models other than the
On 20/07/12 03:30 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
money can be made with FLOSS, just that it's pointless to try to sell
copies of one's software if it's freely copyable. The examples you
On Vi, 20 iul 12, 04:29:05, Gary Dale wrote:
On 20/07/12 03:30 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 22:50:25, Celejar wrote:
Quite true - and completely irrelevant to my point. I don't deny that
money can be made with FLOSS, just that it's pointless to try to sell
copies of one's
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:26:37 +1200
Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 03:20:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:08:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 01:17:49, Doug wrote:
Sorry for the
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 01:17:49, Doug wrote:
Sorry for the bandwidth, but I think the Linux user--I'm certainly
one of them--needs to realize what real specialized software is, and
what it costs to develop, and why it's not free.
Please don't confuse free (beer) with free(dom). Also, I don't have
On Thu, 2012-07-19 at 09:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Also, I don't have a problem with paying for specialized software
[snip] as long as they run natively on my platform of choice.
+1 and plus, nobody should have compunction when illegal using some
software. I've got the privilege not to
On 19/07/12 02:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Thu, 2012-07-19 at 09:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Also, I don't have a problem with paying for specialized software
[snip] as long as they run natively on my platform of choice.
+1 and plus, nobody should have compunction when illegal using some
On Thu, 2012-07-19 at 09:38 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:
Do two wrongs make a right?
No, I'm just kidding.
I've got computer files dating back to 1990 on my server. A lot of it is
in proprietary formats that there haven't been programs for in over a
decade. These are my files that I am
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:45:34 -0400
Celejar cele...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:57 -0400
Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com wrote:
...
Personally I think one of the biggest appeals of Debian (and of
Linux in general) is the commitment to freedom. IP laws and the
degree to
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 01:17:49 -0400
Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote:
On 07/18/2012 11:45 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:57 -0400
Gary Dalegaryd...@rogers.com wrote:
...
Personally I think one of the biggest appeals of Debian (and of Linux in
general) is the
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:08:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 01:17:49, Doug wrote:
Sorry for the bandwidth, but I think the Linux user--I'm certainly
one of them--needs to realize what real specialized software is, and
what it costs to develop, and
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 08:28:46 +0200
Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:
On Thu, 2012-07-19 at 09:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Also, I don't have a problem with paying for specialized software
[snip] as long as they run natively on my platform of choice.
+1 and plus, nobody
On 19/07/12 03:20 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:08:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 01:17:49, Doug wrote:
Sorry for the bandwidth, but I think the Linux user--I'm certainly
one of them--needs to realize what real specialized software is,
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 16:04:10 -0400
Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com wrote:
On 19/07/12 03:20 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:08:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCUandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 01:17:49, Doug wrote:
Sorry for the bandwidth, but I think the Linux
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 03:20:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:08:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 19 iul 12, 01:17:49, Doug wrote:
Sorry for the bandwidth, but I think the Linux user--I'm certainly
one of them--needs to realize what
Hi folks,
While fascinating, this discussion has wandered seriously Off Topic. It's no
longer appropriate for debian-user, I think. I'm not a list-guru. Is there
a debian list where it would be on-topic? If so, maybe we should take it there.
Enjoy!
Rick
On Jul 18, 2012, at 6:46 AM, Gary
On 18/07/12 05:32 PM, Rick Thomas wrote:
Hi folks,
While fascinating, this discussion has wandered seriously Off Topic. It's no longer
appropriate for debian-user, I think. I'm not a list-guru. Is there a
debian list where it would be on-topic? If so, maybe we should take it there.
Enjoy!
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:57 -0400
Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com wrote:
...
Personally I think one of the biggest appeals of Debian (and of Linux in
general) is the commitment to freedom. IP laws and the degree to which
hardware vendors support freedom is relevant to purchasing decisions.
On 07/18/2012 11:45 PM, Celejar wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:30:57 -0400
Gary Dalegaryd...@rogers.com wrote:
...
Personally I think one of the biggest appeals of Debian (and of Linux in
general) is the commitment to freedom. IP laws and the degree to which
hardware vendors support freedom
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