Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hi all, Am 08.02.2024 um 21:38 schrieb Andy Smith: Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 05:40:54PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote: On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote: I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go there again myself. How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk? My own experience is that it's often harder to notice and diagnose -- because on top of the actual storage and its "native" interface such as SATA or NVMe/PCIe, you have the whole stack of USB things. And misbehaving USB devices usually result in first working on the USB end -- try different port, port directly on mainboard, or a powered hub, watch out for native USB 3 or 3.0 Gen 1 -- we can see this on this mailing list, too. Then, USB storage is usually a single device single, if it breaks, it's data is lost, whereas SATA/SAS/NVMe can more easily be integrated into redundancy providing systems. On top of all that, my own, admittedly anecdotal, experience is that USB/Firewire-to-IDE/SATA adapters and their power supplies are more fragile than actual disks. Most of the external hard disks I ever used have been replaced because of their enclosures or power supplies failing. So, I tend to agree with Andy, and I also don't notice any moving goalposts in his statements... In my experience it happens more often and also brings with it frequent issues of poor performance and other reliability issues like just dropping off the USB bus. There is almost always a better way. For home users / small office environments, that leaves the problem of how to do backups -- USB drives are the most appealing storage system for such purposes, but also seem to be less reliable than the primary storage. What do you do? Throw more of the USB disks onto the problem? Or is "public" cloud the solution? Whatever you do, even purely personal storage requirements become a bit of a nightmare when you start thinking about how to make sure your photos and videos are around when your kids are grown up... Cheers, Arno Thanks, Andy -- Arno Lehmann IT-Service Lehmann Sandstr. 6, 49080 Osnabrück
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On 2/8/24 16:28, Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 04:22:49PM -0500, Gremlin wrote: On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote: I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port. That line was meant to read I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port. Changing the goal post now are we. Erm no, it was a simple mistaken repetition of the word "USB" that I only noticed when I read it back. It would be clearly very difficult to refuse to use any kind of USB device at all! I have been consistently talking about storage devices. You have been very clear that you do not agree though, so let's just agree to disagree. Thanks, Andy You back pedal really well don't you! Where did you learn that?
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 04:22:49PM -0500, Gremlin wrote: > On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote: > > I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port. > > That line was meant to read > > I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port. > > Changing the goal post now are we. Erm no, it was a simple mistaken repetition of the word "USB" that I only noticed when I read it back. It would be clearly very difficult to refuse to use any kind of USB device at all! I have been consistently talking about storage devices. You have been very clear that you do not agree though, so let's just agree to disagree. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On 2/8/24 16:16, Andy Smith wrote: On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 03:56:19PM -0500, Gremlin wrote: On 2/8/24 15:43, Andy Smith wrote: I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I generally wouldn't bother. Why would it void the warranty? I put it in the caddy I mean the USB drives that come as a sealed unit that you can sometimes find a lot cheaper than the same model SATA drive that is actually inside them. Some people do enjoy taking those apart to get the SATA drive out. Thanks, Andy On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote: > I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port. That line was meant to read I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port. Thanks, Andy Changing the goal post now are we.
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 04:00:01PM -0500, Gremlin wrote: > I have been using USB attached HDDs and SSDs for 10 years now and > have never had one unexpectedly go off line. Your postings > suggest you don't know what your talking about. Okay then. Despite this uncharitable comment, I do still wish you what I consider to be continued good fortune! Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 03:56:19PM -0500, Gremlin wrote: > On 2/8/24 15:43, Andy Smith wrote: > > I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy > > to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be > > an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I > > generally wouldn't bother. > > Why would it void the warranty? I put it in the caddy I mean the USB drives that come as a sealed unit that you can sometimes find a lot cheaper than the same model SATA drive that is actually inside them. Some people do enjoy taking those apart to get the SATA drive out. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On 2/8/24 15:35, Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Fri, Feb 09, 2024 at 12:23:45AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: On 08/02/2024 22:36, Andy Smith wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0 USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious computing. Do you mean that a proper backup drive should use uas (USB Attached Storage) instead of usb-storage driver? No, I just mean I advise to never ever use storage that comes to you via a USB port for anything you care about. I might consider it okay for temporary shifting of data about, but I would never use it as part of a permanent setup without fully expecting one day to find it just not working. But then that is also how I feel about any storage device. It's just worse when USB is added to the mix. I have been using USB attached HDDs and SSDs for 10 years now and have never had one unexpectedly go off line. Your postings suggest you don't know what your talking about.
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On 2/8/24 15:43, Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 02:20:59PM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote: On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ralph Aichinger wrote: How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk? I may be mistaken, but I believe AS is talking about USB thumb drives, SDcards and the like. I don't think he's talking about external SSD's and NVME's over USB. But I don't want to put words in his mouth. I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port. I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I generally wouldn't bother. Why would it void the warranty? I put it in the caddy If I need directly attached storage I'd much rather explore options like SAS and eSATA, or even networked storage, before I would ever consider USB for a permanent installation. You need to start thinking outside the box.
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote: > I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port. That line was meant to read I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 02:20:59PM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ralph Aichinger wrote: > > How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk? > > I may be mistaken, but I believe AS is talking about USB thumb drives, > SDcards and the like. I don't think he's talking about external SSD's > and NVME's over USB. But I don't want to put words in his mouth. I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port. I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I generally wouldn't bother. If I need directly attached storage I'd much rather explore options like SAS and eSATA, or even networked storage, before I would ever consider USB for a permanent installation. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hello, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 05:40:54PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote: > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote: > > I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of > > reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go > > there again myself. > > How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk? In my experience it happens more often and also brings with it frequent issues of poor performance and other reliability issues like just dropping off the USB bus. There is almost always a better way. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hello, On Fri, Feb 09, 2024 at 12:23:45AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: > On 08/02/2024 22:36, Andy Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: > > > [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0 > > > > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious > > computing. > > Do you mean that a proper backup drive should use uas (USB Attached Storage) > instead of usb-storage driver? No, I just mean I advise to never ever use storage that comes to you via a USB port for anything you care about. I might consider it okay for temporary shifting of data about, but I would never use it as part of a permanent setup without fully expecting one day to find it just not working. But then that is also how I feel about any storage device. It's just worse when USB is added to the mix. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ralph Aichinger wrote: > > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote: > > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious > > computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say > > they use it all the time and it is fine. > > I am clearly in the latter camp. This mail is delivered via a Raspberry > Pi 4 that has a 500G USB SSD. Before the Pi4 I used a Pi3 and a Pi2 (I > think) with USB disks (first rotating, then SSD). Probably for 5 years > or so. Never had a problem (unlike with the SD cards I used before, SD > cards always died on me from to many writes after a few months). > > > They will keep saying that > > until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt. > > This is the same with any hard disk or SSD. If you buy the most > expensive "enterprise" disk, with SAS or whatever, it still can > break on the next day, taking all your data with you. > > Actually with USB disks, sometimes you can remove the USB > controller, replace it in case of breakage, giving you more > or less the same reliability as any "normal" disk. > I've never had USB controllers break, though, so I do not > care. I just take backups as with any other disk. > > > I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of > > reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go > > there again myself. > > How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk? I may be mistaken, but I believe AS is talking about USB thumb drives, SDcards and the like. I don't think he's talking about external SSD's and NVME's over USB. But I don't want to put words in his mouth. My experience with SDcards and thumb drives is along the lines of AS's. I own a lot of dev boards (dating back to the early 2010's) for testing, and I could go through a storage device, like an SDcard, in about 6 months. But I would also add a swap file to the installation because the dev boards were so resource constrained. You simply can't run a C++ compiler on a Beagleboard with 256MB of RAM. The swap file, even with a low swappiness, would eat up SDcards and thumb drives. Jeff
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On 08/02/2024 22:36, Andy Smith wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0 USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious computing. Do you mean that a proper backup drive should use uas (USB Attached Storage) instead of usb-storage driver?
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote: > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious > computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say > they use it all the time and it is fine. I am clearly in the latter camp. This mail is delivered via a Raspberry Pi 4 that has a 500G USB SSD. Before the Pi4 I used a Pi3 and a Pi2 (I think) with USB disks (first rotating, then SSD). Probably for 5 years or so. Never had a problem (unlike with the SD cards I used before, SD cards always died on me from to many writes after a few months). > They will keep saying that > until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt. This is the same with any hard disk or SSD. If you buy the most expensive "enterprise" disk, with SAS or whatever, it still can break on the next day, taking all your data with you. Actually with USB disks, sometimes you can remove the USB controller, replace it in case of breakage, giving you more or less the same reliability as any "normal" disk. I've never had USB controllers break, though, so I do not care. I just take backups as with any other disk. > I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of > reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go > there again myself. How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk? /ralph
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hi, On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 11:14:24AM -0500, Gremlin wrote: > On 2/8/24 10:36, Andy Smith wrote: > > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious > > computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say > > they use it all the time and it is fine. They will keep saying that > > until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt. > > > > LOL, So my main desktop a raspberry pi 4 is not serious computing? Or is it > that my name server, web server email server which is a raspberry pi 4 not > serious computing? Not in my opinion, no¹, but I don't mind at all if you don't agree and I also wish you the best of ongoing luck! Thanks, Andy ¹ Of course, sometimes you just have a device that only has USB and there's no way around it. If I have to go there, I try to make it serious by preparing for the storage of those devices to just disappear one day and take steps to minimise the downtime lost to that. -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
On 2/8/24 10:36, Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0 USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say they use it all the time and it is fine. They will keep saying that until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt. LOL, So my main desktop a raspberry pi 4 is not serious computing? Or is it that my name server, web server email server which is a raspberry pi 4 not serious computing? They both boot to USB SSDs and only have USB SSD drives, so they are not serious computing? The desktop RPI has an NVME drive as the boot drive connected by you guessed it USB. I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go there again myself.
Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Hello, On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: > [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0 USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say they use it all the time and it is fine. They will keep saying that until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt. I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go there again myself. > Looks like a reasonable facsimile of a 2T disk to me. Good luck. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
