Re: finding and using applications
It seems very clear to me that the Menu package is what you are looking for. it's strange that nobody has said anything about it since you posted your question; The README file of /usr/doc/menu answers most of your askings. First, you must have a debian system, this shouldn't be a problem _here_ . I believe the menu package is installed by default. of course, the system is more complex, but here is rufly how it work: almost all package you install via a normal way (eg dpkg -i ) create a file in /usr/lib/menu/package-name. this file contains: the name of the program, a one-line description (maybe a little more precise than apropos, definitly not the same) the type (X11,text,...) the section (Apps/Editors, Games/Strategy ...) the path of a (very :-( ) optional icon, the executable file, and other stuff i cannot remenber so far i understood, the main goal of all this is to help users finding applications (!!!) and so far i know, only Window managers are using those files in order to create inteligent menus. i saw somewhere that one of them (afterstep ?) even use the description field to add mini-ballons's popups along the menus dynamicaly created. With this base installed, it should be a lot easier to create a frontend for finding apps than creating it from dpkg -l or -L outputs ( what is THE executable ?, and ignoring the secondary ones ). On the other side, for this to work, you must install well-made deb packages which include this feature. too often, package maintainers (?) forget this. This is included in debian since at least the bo (1.3) distribution. So Tommy, does it answers some questions ? the strangiest part is that i thought before that everybody was using it , and it's hard to admit that somes deactivate it. you probably use it and dislike it for unknown reasons. that's must be. PS: this is my second mail about finding applications , i wonder what happened to the first..
finding and using applications
Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. Strictly from a System administration perspective, There should be a simple way for users to know what apps are available to them. If you know one please let me know it
Re: finding and using applications
A 07:14 04/05/99 -0400, vous avez écrit : Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. Strictly from a System administration perspective, There should be a simple way for users to know what apps are available to them. If you know one please let me know it -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null Why does menu and menu-methods designed for ? but a lot lot of packages are just ignoring adding a menu entry. I agree with Tommy, i actually use the WM's menus to see what's available, but some WM's simply don't bother with menu-method and there is no description. That's a pity, menu system is one of the strength of Debian.
Re: finding and using applications
dpkg -l | less Fernando T. C. Brandt Instituto de Física | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Univ. de São Paulo | www: http://satie.if.usp.br CP 66318, 05315-970 | tel.: (55) 11 8186718, 99356907 São Paulo - SP - BRAZIL | fax: (55) 11 8186715
Re: finding and using applications
Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? To get an idea of what could be available, the debian web pages provide nice descriptions of the packages. To see what is installed on your system, just type $ dpkg -l | less Now if some short description seems interesting, try $ dpkg --print-avail package name Next action would be to see what is in /usr/doc/package name, and to try man and info pages. None of this seems very hard to me. I agree it should be advertised better. [...] A very concise way of finding out what commands are available to you in bash, is typing TAB twice, and then `y'. :) HTH, Eric -- E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Eindhoven Univ. of Technology Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (SKA)
Re: finding and using applications
On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 07:14:53AM -0400, Tommy Malloy wrote: Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Good start :) Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? No :) dselect will tell you what packages it knows about and whether they have been installed through dselect. You (or the SysAdmin) are the only one who knows _everything_ that has been installed unless you _never_ install anything except using dselect. dselect will also (usually) give you a fair idea of the purpose of the programme. man foo or info foo will give details (normally) of how to use the particular programme. I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Well, I think you'd have to be looking to do something esoteric indeed if apropros couldn't come up with _something_ to do the job :) Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user BUT : if /usr/bin has files foo,bar,baz then man foo, man bar, man baz will normally quickly give you the missing information. Do this for every file there ... do it NOW :) (I have and I learned a lot of interesting things in the process !) When you have finished there, check out /etc and subdirectories and /usr/sbin. This will take, on a basic system, less than a day. At the end of it you will have a _very_ good idea of what is possible even if you don't memorise every command as you go. should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. Actually, you confused me for a while there with that statement but what I think you are saying is that: if an application is installed and doesn't have man pages then apropos can't tell the user about that application. And furthermore, if no other package that is documented can do the same job then the user forever remains unaware of this application. Well that's true but my experience has been that the undocumented applications are _normally_ lesser used duplications of other documented applications or perform some specialised function. IMHO, in the first case, apropos would point your hypothetical user towards a documented application to achieve the same effect and in the second case, your hypothetical user wouldn't even need to know about that application. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc It is true that _some_ applications are not fully documented. Remember that most of the software is written by volunteers simply because it solved a problem that they (the author) had and therefore there was no need for that author to document the application. These applications have subsequently been released to the public under a variety of licenses. Sometimes the author and sometimes a user of an application later on decides to add documentation so that the rest of us don't have go poking around in the source code to discover every little intricacy. When that happens it's great ... when it doesn't you, the user, are left with two choices : don't use the application until someone else has put in the hard work or put in the hard work and write your own documentation and give back to the community that supplied the programme in the first place. Sometimes if you make the first choice you could be depriving yourself and many others _just_like_you_ of a fine application for a _very_long_time_ Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting You _can_ write it but, for a variety of reasons you _won't_ :) The reasons may include that you hadn't seen a computer until 2 days ago or your wife only allows you 10 minutes/day on the computer etc... but there is no such thing as _can't_ :) on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. root, God or plain jane doesn't make any difference whatsoever. Nobody who uses any computer or OS
Re: finding and using applications
On Tue, 4 May 1999, Tommy Malloy wrote: I agree with this one. Now and then I will install a package in which none of the binaries have the same name as the package, and there is no manpage available, so I have to hunt for the application's _name_. It makes one feel very silly, and can be quite frustrating. I think that dselect could use an additional tool to navigate through the contents of packages. I realize that there is a dpkg -l option, but there must be a better way. - Bill Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. Strictly from a System administration perspective, There should be a simple way for users to know what apps are available to them. If you know one please let me know it -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: finding and using applications
Would it be too hard to add a verbose type flag that tells exactly what dpkg is installing as it does it? gzip does this by default, so I'd think that since dpkg basically calls gzip, there could be a pass-through switch to turn on verbose reporting with not too much hassle. On Tue, 4 May 1999, William R Pentney wrote: On Tue, 4 May 1999, Tommy Malloy wrote: I agree with this one. Now and then I will install a package in which none of the binaries have the same name as the package, and there is no manpage available, so I have to hunt for the application's _name_. It makes one feel very silly, and can be quite frustrating. I think that dselect could use an additional tool to navigate through the contents of packages. I realize that there is a dpkg -l option, but there must be a better way. - Bill Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. Strictly from a System administration perspective, There should be a simple way for users to know what apps are available to them. If you know one please let me know it -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null I can be immature if I want to, because I'm mature enough to make my own decisions. Who is John Galt? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: finding and using applications
John Galt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Would it be too hard to add a verbose type flag that tells exactly | what dpkg is installing as it does it? gzip does this by default, so I'd | think that since dpkg basically calls gzip, there could be a | pass-through switch to turn on verbose reporting with not too much | hassle. | | On Tue, 4 May 1999, William R Pentney wrote: | | On Tue, 4 May 1999, Tommy Malloy wrote: | | I agree with this one. Now and then I will install a package in which none | of the binaries have the same name as the package, and there is no manpage | available, so I have to hunt for the application's _name_. It makes one | feel very silly, and can be quite frustrating. | | I think that dselect could use an additional tool to navigate through the | contents of packages. I realize that there is a dpkg -l option, but | there must be a better way. | | - Bill [snip] I'm a little confused about what you're (Tommy) asking here. Documentation for the applications that are in a package is a somewhat different issue than finding out what files a package installed. You can find all the files associated with a particular package using dpkg -L package, e.g., % dpkg -L cvs /. /usr /usr/share /usr/share/doc-base /usr/share/doc-base/cvs /usr/share/doc-base/cvs-client /usr/sbin /usr/sbin/cvsconfig /usr/doc . . . Is this what you wanted? Gary
Re: finding and using applications
A person has to start somewhere. If your novice user knows enough to get by, they already have a tremendous advance over the absolute green horn. apropos only scans man pages, but that is a good place to begin. Of course, if the person doesn't know what they are looking for, they won't be able to find it. They could always try asking someone who know more than thmeselves. There are also any number of good un*x books that can help a person learn more about what might be available. Do you know of any OS where looking for a tool to do a specific job is easy if you don't already know about ? G. On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 07:14:53AM -0400, Tommy Malloy wrote: Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. Strictly from a System administration perspective, There should be a simple way for users to know what apps are available to them. If you know one please let me know it -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: finding and using applications
What about something that could search /var/lib/dpkg/available intelligently? ie: You can set regexes on each field (some fields would be better served by checkboxes or listboxes) and all packages matching those criteria (make sure that the ones with listboxes let you do the equivalent of OR [and where appliciable AND]!) would be displayed. Hmm, I think I could even write such a beast. A command-line version in perl and an X frontend in perl/Tk. Is the format of the available file fully documented somewhere? On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 07:14:53AM -0400, Tommy Malloy wrote: Suppose you have a Debian Gnu/Linux system set up and fully loaded with applications. A new user appears who is going to use the system. The new user is a unix novice. He/she knows enough basic commands to get by. Is there a simple way for that user to find every available application on the system, what the application does, and how to use it? I really don't think so. Remember apropos only scans man pages. Looking in /usr/bin isn't much help for finding a tool to do a specific job unless you already know about it. I really believe that any user should be able to step up to the machine and quickly and easily find if an application to do what they want is available. Yes this is available for many applications, but not for all. I believe that this serious problem, which is an impediment to Linuxes mass acceptance could easily be fixed. Debian should not include application that are not fully documented ie have manpages, info pages etc Also some frontend appliction for finding applicatons would be helpful Somethnig based on he code for dselect would probably work fine. Please don't suggest that I write it. I can't. I am only commenting on a feature I would like to see. Please don't ask what type of applicaton I am looking for so you can help me find it. I am not looking for an application. But I would like to be able, and have any users be able, to know what applications are available on my system and how to use them. I would like to be able to get that informantion exclusivly from my computer and not depend on this list, irc, usenet, my big pile of tech books, or any external source. I am root for heavens sake. Strictly from a System administration perspective, There should be a simple way for users to know what apps are available to them. If you know one please let me know it -- Matthew Sachs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- random fortune quote -- [A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell
