Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
On 2/20/24 04:29, David Christensen wrote: On 2/19/24 18:07, Felix Miata wrote: My experience with that particular color cables matches Gene's. Cut one open, and out comes a powdery substance instead of clean copper strands. I think most for gen 1.0 SATA 2 decades ago, so there shouldn't be many still around bogging down 3.0 drives. About 10 (?) years ago, I seem to recall trouble-shooting a SATA connection problem and coming to the conclusion that the (red) SATA cable was the problem. I cannot recall if I had heard Gene's story at the time. I believe I decided to cut off one end, taking a 50% chance of getting something I could use as a break-out/ pig tail. To my surprise, there was no copper within the cable, just brownish dust! Unfortunately, I did not photograph the cable and it is long gone. 4 or more years ago, I was plagued with SATA III connection issues; likely due to old SATA I and SATA II cables and mobile racks. I bought a bunch of black SATA cables marked "6 Gbps" with locking connectors and got rid of all of my existing cables (most of which were red). I later retired all of my SATA I and SATA II mobile racks, moved most of my drives internal, and bought a few SATA III mobile racks for off-site backup drives. My SATA connection problems are finally resolved. How many more nearly identical story's can be teased out of this group of old hands at this game of making moving electrons do useful things? David . Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"? (Was Re: Orphaned Inode Problem)
On Dienstag, 20. Februar 2024 06:58:31 -03 Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ wrote: > On Montag, 19. Februar 2024 21:48:52 -03 Andy Smith wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 04:12:44PM -0300, Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / > > KY4PZ > wrote: > > > The notorious red SATA cables - I threw them out long ago. The red > > > pigment eats up the fine copper threads, changing the impedance of > > > the cable and eventually making false contact before failing > > > completely. > > > > I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I > > can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I > > can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. > > Have you got a reference so I can learn more? > > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > Experience ... > "notoriously bad" on my work bench. > Audio cables, SATA cables, even red cables of 1.5mm2 upwards. The > corrosion can be seen although it takes decades for the thicker cables > to deteriorate. > It very much depends on where the cables have been manufactured. > Never had problems with European made or US made telephone cables with > wires with red sheeths. But copper cable manufacturing has been > outsourced to Asia (and Argentina - Pirelli but those are good) many > decades ago. If you open the sheeth of the red SATA cable, you will see that at least three wires have no extra sheeth but are directly embedded into the red plastic. 4 are shielded. So I guess that those wires are not affected. There is one naked wire in the middle and two to the right and left. -- Eike Lantzsch KY4PZ / ZP5CGE
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"? (Was Re: Orphaned Inode Problem)
On Montag, 19. Februar 2024 21:48:52 -03 Andy Smith wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 04:12:44PM -0300, Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ wrote: > > The notorious red SATA cables - I threw them out long ago. The red > > pigment eats up the fine copper threads, changing the impedance of > > the cable and eventually making false contact before failing > > completely. > I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I > can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I > can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. > Have you got a reference so I can learn more? > > Thanks, > Andy Experience ... "notoriously bad" on my work bench. Audio cables, SATA cables, even red cables of 1.5mm2 upwards. The corrosion can be seen although it takes decades for the thicker cables to deteriorate. It very much depends on where the cables have been manufactured. Never had problems with European made or US made telephone cables with wires with red sheeths. But copper cable manufacturing has been outsourced to Asia (and Argentina - Pirelli but those are good) many decades ago. -- Eike Lantzsch KY4PZ / ZP5CGE
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
On 2/19/24 18:07, Felix Miata wrote: My experience with that particular color cables matches Gene's. Cut one open, and out comes a powdery substance instead of clean copper strands. I think most for gen 1.0 SATA 2 decades ago, so there shouldn't be many still around bogging down 3.0 drives. About 10 (?) years ago, I seem to recall trouble-shooting a SATA connection problem and coming to the conclusion that the (red) SATA cable was the problem. I cannot recall if I had heard Gene's story at the time. I believe I decided to cut off one end, taking a 50% chance of getting something I could use as a break-out/ pig tail. To my surprise, there was no copper within the cable, just brownish dust! Unfortunately, I did not photograph the cable and it is long gone. 4 or more years ago, I was plagued with SATA III connection issues; likely due to old SATA I and SATA II cables and mobile racks. I bought a bunch of black SATA cables marked "6 Gbps" with locking connectors and got rid of all of my existing cables (most of which were red). I later retired all of my SATA I and SATA II mobile racks, moved most of my drives internal, and bought a few SATA III mobile racks for off-site backup drives. My SATA connection problems are finally resolved. David
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
On 2/19/24 22:15, Andy Smith wrote: Hi, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:06:23PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: Andy, look at that CET after my name in the sig, that stands for Certified Electronics Tachnician. There isn't a polite way to say this really but unfortunately I am unable to take you seriously as you've posted so many outright incorrect assertions to this mailing list in the past. I can list off my qualifications and experience and still be told pretty often that I don't know what I am talking about, and sometimes I probably don't, so let's leave it at that. Regards, Andy Thats a good way to cap this Andy, thanks. stay well. Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"? (Was Re: Orphaned Inode Problem)
On 20/2/24 08:48, Andy Smith wrote: Hi, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 04:12:44PM -0300, Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ wrote: The notorious red SATA cables - I threw them out long ago. The red pigment eats up the fine copper threads, changing the impedance of the cable and eventually making false contact before failing completely. I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. Have you got a reference so I can learn more? I find it unlikely that the color of the outer sheath of a cable affects the conductors as they have their own individual sheaths usually of a different material to the sheath. It's possible that some manufacturer made cables with faulty individual insulation and their brand used a red outer sheath. In that case the color of the sheath correlates with faulty cables but is not the cause of the faulty cables.
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
Hi, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:06:23PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: > Andy, look at that CET after my name in the sig, that stands for Certified > Electronics Tachnician. There isn't a polite way to say this really but unfortunately I am unable to take you seriously as you've posted so many outright incorrect assertions to this mailing list in the past. I can list off my qualifications and experience and still be told pretty often that I don't know what I am talking about, and sometimes I probably don't, so let's leave it at that. Regards, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
On 2/19/24 20:29, Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 08:16:49PM -0500, Felix Miata wrote: I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. Have you got a reference so I can learn more? Don't you ever read Gene Heskett posts? Ah I see: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/06/msg00103.html Stefan: Can you point to any evidence? Gene: Just my own life [segue to story from 1970] The usual story. Yeah I skipped that thread the first time around owing to its subject line containing "urban legends". consider searching this very list's archives. Moments of my life I will never get back, and no more authoritative sources unfortunately! Thanks, Andy Andy, look at that CET after my name in the sig, that stands for Certified Electronics Tachnician. We teach EE's which there are 1000's of compared to us, what their profs didn't teach them before issuing that sheepskin they hang on the office wall. I'm also a 1st phone, an easy test I didn't crack a book for. And I was familiar enough, having made a living from electronics for 20+ year including the physics of klystrons when I saw the notice that the test was available so I walked into the profs classroom and laid my fee for the test on his desk. Allocated 4 hours, I handed it back to him in 45 minutes. Of 125 questions, I blacked the right box on 123. He I found had been teaching that course for 5 years, I was the first that passed it. Registered as NB-116. 20 some years later I checked to see how many had passed since, they were up to NB-122. That's telling indeed. Now I'm in my 90th year, and with a fading short term memory and a pita on this list, but I'm still here till I miss roll call some morning. Take care and stay well ANDY. Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"? (Was Re: Orphaned Inode Problem)
On 2/19/24 19:49, Andy Smith wrote: Hi, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 04:12:44PM -0300, Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ wrote: The notorious red SATA cables - I threw them out long ago. The red pigment eats up the fine copper threads, changing the impedance of the cable and eventually making false contact before failing completely. I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. Have you got a reference so I can learn more? Thanks, Andy Andy, I am the source of that red cable story. Actually it is not technically a red but a magenta that fluoresces reddish to get that brightness. And my history with early failure of cables that used that dye to color the insulation goes back to the 1970's when the majority of the CB radios sold were from japan, not china. Microphone cables that included a push to talk start failing quite rapidly, The hot red wire was used for that about 99% of the time..Open up the plug or the microphone, the red wire had come unsoldered or broken off, attempt to strip it back to good wire wasn't possible. there was no good copper left anyplace in the cable. Cut an inch of it off where there should have been copper, grab it by the end with suture clamps and thump it with a pencil over white copy paper and shake the copper out of it as a reddish, face powder fine dust, the copper had been I assume made into copper oxide. It took every good tech in the country to start returning mike cables back to the makers as defective before they got the message that that die was poison. That took about 9 months before we could order replacement cable specifing that they would be returned for credit if we found any 'hot" red in the cables they were selling us. The shortage at the time forced them to ship whatever they had I guess. If you goto Loews or any electrical supply where they have to sell NEC approved cabling, you will NOT see that red on any wire on the shelf or in the rack. Then about the time sata came out, they found a new market for that plastic dye, and sure as heck, we had cabling problems out the yang in about 3 years. If you have that hot red wire anyplace in you computer, it will fail, order more cables. Tan, Black, Yellow, but not hot red. And sleep better knowing that time bomb has gone out with the trash. Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
Andy Smith composed on 2024-02-20 01:29 (UTC): > On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 08:16:49PM -0500, Felix Miata wrote: >>> I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I >>> can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I >>> can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. >>> Have you got a reference so I can learn more? >> Don't you ever read Gene Heskett posts? > Ah I see: > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/06/msg00103.html > Stefan: Can you point to any evidence? > Gene: Just my own life [segue to story from 1970] > The usual story. Gene's been around quite a while, working electronics longer than most of us have lived, likely finished his schooling and went to work before Roosevelt died. > Yeah I skipped that thread the first time around owing to its > subject line containing "urban legends". >> consider searching this very list's archives. > Moments of my life I will never get back, and no more authoritative > sources unfortunately! My experience with that particular color cables matches Gene's. Cut one open, and out comes a powdery substance instead of clean copper strands. I think most for gen 1.0 SATA 2 decades ago, so there shouldn't be many still around bogging down 3.0 drives. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
Hello, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 08:16:49PM -0500, Felix Miata wrote: > > I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I > > can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I > > can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. > > Have you got a reference so I can learn more? > > Don't you ever read Gene Heskett posts? Ah I see: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/06/msg00103.html Stefan: Can you point to any evidence? Gene: Just my own life [segue to story from 1970] The usual story. Yeah I skipped that thread the first time around owing to its subject line containing "urban legends". > consider searching this very list's archives. Moments of my life I will never get back, and no more authoritative sources unfortunately! Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: red SATA cables "notoriously bad"?
Andy Smith composed on 2024-02-20 00:48 (UTC): > On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 04:12:44PM -0300, Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ wrote: >> The notorious red SATA cables - I threw them out long ago. The red >> pigment eats up the fine copper threads, changing the impedance of the >> cable and eventually making false contact before failing completely. > I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I > can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I > can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. > Have you got a reference so I can learn more? Don't you ever read Gene Heskett posts? I expect he'll be chiming in on this one shortly While you wait, consider searching this very list's archives. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
red SATA cables "notoriously bad"? (Was Re: Orphaned Inode Problem)
Hi, On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 04:12:44PM -0300, Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ wrote: > The notorious red SATA cables - I threw them out long ago. The red > pigment eats up the fine copper threads, changing the impedance of the > cable and eventually making false contact before failing completely. I've never heard of this. I did a bit of searching around and all I can find is assertions that cable colour doesn't matter for SATA. I can't seem to find anything about red pigment damaging the copper. Have you got a reference so I can learn more? Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
