Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Celejar]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:59:21 +1000
Zenaan Harkness  wrote:

> Just now discovered a mutt feature which blows all the "web forum"
> competition away:
> 
> -V
> 
> Note, as opposed to -v
> 
> I.e. "fold"/ unfold all threads - and when you enter a thread/ read
> it's first msg, that thread is auto unfolded.
> 
> As good as it gets... and better than javascript web online only
> firetruckery :)

Note that Sylpheed (and presumably other mail clients as well) also
has this capability: View -> Expand all threads, View -> Collapse all
threads. [Key bindings are available through the standard GTK mechanism.]

Celejar

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:04:26PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

And note the keyboard bindings, "split thread" and delete attachments
features here:
https://heipei.net/2009/09/10/mutt-threading-like-a-pro/


These are features that are not present in upstream mutt, fwiw, but
patched into the Debian package.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 01:59:21PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Just now discovered a mutt feature which blows all the "web forum"
> competition away:
> 
> -V
> 
> Note, as opposed to -v
> 
> I.e. "fold"/ unfold all threads - and when you enter a thread/ read
> it's first msg, that thread is auto unfolded.
> 
> As good as it gets... and better than javascript web online only
> firetruckery :)

And note the keyboard bindings, "split thread" and delete attachments
features here:
https://heipei.net/2009/09/10/mutt-threading-like-a-pro/

FTW!

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Zenaan Harkness]

Just now discovered a mutt feature which blows all the "web forum"
competition away:

-V

Note, as opposed to -v

I.e. "fold"/ unfold all threads - and when you enter a thread/ read
it's first msg, that thread is auto unfolded.

As good as it gets... and better than javascript web online only
firetruckery :)

RE: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Bonno Bloksma]

Hi,

I have always preferred something like NNTP to email lists for groups like 
this. I have always seen mailing lists as the precursor for NNTP. So switching 
to NNTP should be the upgrade to the future. ;-)

>> That was my take on the matter as well - or at least it was a 
>> suggestion that perhaps the debian lists "move away from these 'old' 
>> communication channels".
> 
> And it was reassuring to see that I am not alone in preferring nntp and other 
> "archaic" (e.g. pop!) protocols.  I hate web based discussion fora and tend 
> to avoid them (or find myself finding reasons to not go look at them very 
> often).

NNTP is not "archaic", which other way delivers the message to me?
All those web thingie options want to have the message somewhere and have me go 
to that location. We replaced Bulleting Board Systems a long time ago with 
email, why go back to something like that?

Bonno Bloksma

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 10:05:14PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

Yes, I probably can, but this is a bit public for that. :(


I'm glad to learn your "what's appropriate for Debian User" self-filter
has at least *some* bounds.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 04 September 2018 20:42:13 Liam O'Toole wrote:

> On 2018-09-04, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > thing they've now given it a "better" name of PTSD (by the libtards
> > definitions).
>
> "Libtards"? Gene, you can do better than that.

Yes, I probably can, but this is a bit public for that. :(

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Celejar]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:23:30 -0400
Dan Ritter  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 04:05:52PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, August 10, 2018 07:33:39 AM Dan Purgert wrote:
> > > Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > > 3. Indexed mail searching. Whatever works with your preferred
> > > > mail client. Have cron run a re-index every morning before you
> > > > wake up.
> > > 
> > > Care to expand on this one a bit? Not entirely sure what you mean here,
> > > and it's intriguing.
> > 
> > I'm not Dan Ritter, and he or some others may have responded, but, for me, 
> > I 
> > have used recol for that -- it creates an index of all the words in the 
> > emails 
> > and then allows full text searches.  Results can be displayed in various 
> > ways, 
> > including re-opening the email in an email client.
> 
> Debian package name is "recoll". Looks interesting.

+1

I, too, have been using recoll for full text indexing for years, for
text documents (plain, Open/LibreOffice, etc.) in general, and email in
particular. It's just a great program, and the author is accessible and
responds to bug reports, etc.

> -dsr-

Celejar

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2018-09-04, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> thing they've now given it a "better" name of PTSD (by the libtards 
> definitions).

"Libtards"? Gene, you can do better than that.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 04 September 2018 13:53:19 John Hasler wrote:

> Dan Purgert wrote:
> > (Also wasn't "The War" specifically WWI?)
>
> "The War" is whatever major conflict ended long enough ago for the
> children of its veterans to have heard it called "The War" but not
> long enough ago for another to have intervened.
>
> It can also refer to whatever war one is presumed by one's
> interlocutor to have participated in due to one's age.

In my case that would have been Korea. I was quite ready to find a steady 
and make a few babies, but not if I was going to get drafted and killed. 
So I had the board move my name to the top of the list, but I made a 
mistake on the AFQT and scored a 98, condeming me to carrying a little 
yellow card proclaiming I was 4F'd for the next 40 years. They didn't 
want anyone who could think for hisself because he wouldn't obey orders.

I managed to rattle around, scaring all the girls off for about 5 years, 
until a fresh waitress whose initials were A.S on the register ticket, 
and I'd added another S very neatly, at my usual greasy spoon & gave me 
a huge wood screw the next night and asked if that was what I needed. We 
were married 2 weeks later, and she joyously gave me 3 children who were 
6-8-9 when she had a stroke and died. 2 girls and a boy. And the girls 
have since died of cancer, and the boy tried to mix a quart of scotch 
and a Kia, with fatal results 3 years ago. So none of my first family 
survives.  She was a good woman and I miss her yet after 50 years.

Then I picked up the glasshopper & her 3 kids to make a 6 pack, made 3 
more with her, but 2 of her 3 have since passed from Deucheine Muscular 
Dystrophy, and took her home for 17 years, and this Dec will make 29 
years with my current wife who is now fading from COPD and dragging an 
oxygen hose when she does move.  Good woman, I'll keep her till...

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

Dan Purgert wrote:
> (Also wasn't "The War" specifically WWI?)

"The War" is whatever major conflict ended long enough ago for the
children of its veterans to have heard it called "The War" but not long
enough ago for another to have intervened.

It can also refer to whatever war one is presumed by one's interlocutor
to have participated in due to one's age.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 04 September 2018 12:15:59 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 04 September 2018 11:09:07 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> (Also wasn't "The War" specifically WWI?)
> >
> > [...]
> > born till '34. So The War to me was WW-II. (or later) I can remember
> > my grandfather as he turned off the battery powered radio on Dec.
> > 7th, 1941 after the news, with tears flowing like a river as he knew
> > the
>
> "Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy -
> the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by
> the naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan ... "
>
>
> (also, I just realized I was conflating "The War" to "The Great War")

macht nichts. Doesn't make any difference IOW, they are all bad. Mans 
inhumanity to man knows no bounds and leaves the participants in the 
ditches with what we call PTSD today.  Then it was "shell shock", same 
thing they've now given it a "better" name of PTSD (by the libtards 
definitions). One of my stepfathers sister's husband managed to live 
thru the Bataan Death March, but it was an absolutely verboten subject 
the rest of his life when he finally came home. He did a good job of 
containing it, I don't ever recall hearing that he hit Alice even once. 
And I never saw a mark on her.  He did spend a lot of time washing very 
ripe chicken guts in the Des Moines River, and they always had some 
good, bragging sized catfish for the table. Fishing I guess was his 
therapy. Way better than some of the alternatives...

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 September 2018 11:09:07 Dan Purgert wrote:
>> (Also wasn't "The War" specifically WWI?)
> [...]
> born till '34. So The War to me was WW-II. (or later) I can remember my 
> grandfather as he turned off the battery powered radio on Dec. 7th, 1941 
> after the news, with tears flowing like a river as he knew the 

"Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the
United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by the
naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan ... "


(also, I just realized I was conflating "The War" to "The Great War")

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 04 September 2018 11:09:07 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 04 September 2018 07:42:53 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> Dave Sherohman wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:35:35PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> >> [*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service,
> >> >> let's move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?
> >> >
> >> > Last week, we decommissioned an ancient server[1] and then got a
> >> > call two days later from an academic complaining that his web
> >> > site had disappeared.  One of my predecessors had set him up with
> >> > an arrangement where he FTPed his files to this ancient server,
> >> > then the actual web host ran a daily cron job to scp files into
> >> > production.
> >>
> >> Aren't academics grand? :)
> >>
> >> > We somehow managed to convince him that the easiest solution
> >> > would be for him to use SFTP directly to the web server instead,
> >> > and thus my last FTP user fell.
> >>
> >> Well, at least he was okay with change.  Many academics aren't (and
> >> it's a right pain to deal with them - 'son, I've had tenure since
> >> The War*')
> >>
> >>
> >> *OK, maybe not quite that long ... :)
> >
> > Depends on which war.:) I had a round with the air force at EAFB in
> > the early 60's.
>
> We were flying a bombing mission to Daiquiri at 1800, coming in from
> the north ...
>
> (Also wasn't "The War" specifically WWI?)

It may have been, but that war has survivors you can probably count on 
one hand, missing a finger or 2. Over in '17 or so, and I wasn't even 
born till '34. So The War to me was WW-II. (or later) I can remember my 
grandfather as he turned off the battery powered radio on Dec. 7th, 1941 
after the news, with tears flowing like a river as he knew the 
declaration of war would come as soon as a quorum was assembled the next 
morning, if not before.  Born in 1898, he lived thru that war so had 
first hand knowledge of the word war.

Yeah, I'm an old fart, now gimme the discount. :)



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday,  4 Sep 2018 at 11:42, Dan Purgert wrote:
> Aren't academics grand? :)

Yes.  We've been put on this earth to keep IT guys on their toes! :)

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 September 2018 07:42:53 Dan Purgert wrote:
>
>> Dave Sherohman wrote:
>> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:35:35PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> >> [*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service,
>> >> let's move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?
>> >
>> > Last week, we decommissioned an ancient server[1] and then got a
>> > call two days later from an academic complaining that his web site
>> > had disappeared.  One of my predecessors had set him up with an
>> > arrangement where he FTPed his files to this ancient server, then
>> > the actual web host ran a daily cron job to scp files into
>> > production.
>>
>> Aren't academics grand? :)
>>
>> > We somehow managed to convince him that the easiest solution would
>> > be for him to use SFTP directly to the web server instead, and thus
>> > my last FTP user fell.
>>
>> Well, at least he was okay with change.  Many academics aren't (and
>> it's a right pain to deal with them - 'son, I've had tenure since The
>> War*')
>>
>>
>> *OK, maybe not quite that long ... :)
>
> Depends on which war.:) I had a round with the air force at EAFB in the 
> early 60's.

We were flying a bombing mission to Daiquiri at 1800, coming in from the
north ... 

(Also wasn't "The War" specifically WWI?)


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> Many also permit the changing of the Subject: field when the topic has
> wandered away from the original value.  It would be a great service to
> many of one's fellow mailing list participants if more people would take
> advantage of that.

In general i agree.
But this thread in particular started already without original value
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/08/msg00388.html
(auld lang syne ...)


Gene Hesket wrote:
> FTP was in common use by my Amiga back in the early 90's, so I'd guess 
> its probably even in AT's unix in the 80's.

  https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc959
has a section "2.1 History" near the start and an appendix III at the
very end. Especially the dates in the appendix give juvenile memories.

It seems that this document of 1985 is still the base definition, which
got expanded by later add-ons. (See its "Updated by:" list at the start.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 04 September 2018 07:42:53 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Dave Sherohman wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:35:35PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> [*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service,
> >> let's move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?
> >
> > Last week, we decommissioned an ancient server[1] and then got a
> > call two days later from an academic complaining that his web site
> > had disappeared.  One of my predecessors had set him up with an
> > arrangement where he FTPed his files to this ancient server, then
> > the actual web host ran a daily cron job to scp files into
> > production.
>
> Aren't academics grand? :)
>
> > We somehow managed to convince him that the easiest solution would
> > be for him to use SFTP directly to the web server instead, and thus
> > my last FTP user fell.
>
> Well, at least he was okay with change.  Many academics aren't (and
> it's a right pain to deal with them - 'son, I've had tenure since The
> War*')
>
>
> *OK, maybe not quite that long ... :)

Depends on which war.:) I had a round with the air force at EAFB in the 
early 60's.

I had a contract to maintain the portal door cameras at the Titan-1 sites 
I'd also helped build in '60 and eventually the camera output looked 
like crap, so badly streaked that your could not identify if what was 
moving was human or a curious coyote.  So I took it to the bench and 
found a clamping diode, a ge type, that only had about a 3/1 ratio, 
forward to backward, so I automatically replaced it with the much better 
si switching diode, and the camera then made better pix than when it was 
new.  And I reported it on the repair forms. A major saw that I hadn't 
used the OEM part and had a whole litter of cows. Since they were 
supposedly to supply the parts, I had to submit an order, which because 
it was for a older part, took the flaps at the mams building about 2 
months to get and cost them damned near 200 dollars for a diode no 
better than a 1n34. The diode I had used was then selling at the shack 
for $2 a bag of 10, So I put the OEM part in the camera, the camera went 
back to looking a bit shitty, but the air force was happy and thats what 
counted.

Your academics can usually understand that the technology moves on, but 
the military? FurGedAboutIt, tain't gonna happen on that officers watch.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 04 September 2018 06:20:10 Dave Sherohman wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:35:35PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> > [*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service, let's
> > move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?
>
> Last week, we decommissioned an ancient server[1] and then got a call
> two days later from an academic complaining that his web site had
> disappeared.  One of my predecessors had set him up with an
> arrangement where he FTPed his files to this ancient server, then the
> actual web host ran a daily cron job to scp files into production.
>
> We somehow managed to convince him that the easiest solution would be
> for him to use SFTP directly to the web server instead, and thus my
> last FTP user fell.
>
> Being rid of that protocol felt even better than I had anticipated.
>
>
> [1] I don't know how old it was exactly - it was here before I started
> - but it was running a version of Red Hat that was EOLed over a decade
> ago.

FTP was in common use by my Amiga back in the early 90's, so I'd guess 
its probably even in AT's unix in the 80's.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Dave Sherohman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:35:35PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> [*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service, let's
>> move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?
>
> Last week, we decommissioned an ancient server[1] and then got a call
> two days later from an academic complaining that his web site had
> disappeared.  One of my predecessors had set him up with an arrangement
> where he FTPed his files to this ancient server, then the actual web
> host ran a daily cron job to scp files into production.

Aren't academics grand? :)

> We somehow managed to convince him that the easiest solution would be
> for him to use SFTP directly to the web server instead, and thus my
> last FTP user fell.

Well, at least he was okay with change.  Many academics aren't (and it's
a right pain to deal with them - 'son, I've had tenure since The
War*')


*OK, maybe not quite that long ... :)

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dave Sherohman]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:35:35PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> [*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service, let's
> move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?

Last week, we decommissioned an ancient server[1] and then got a call
two days later from an academic complaining that his web site had
disappeared.  One of my predecessors had set him up with an arrangement
where he FTPed his files to this ancient server, then the actual web
host ran a daily cron job to scp files into production.

We somehow managed to convince him that the easiest solution would be
for him to use SFTP directly to the web server instead, and thus my
last FTP user fell.

Being rid of that protocol felt even better than I had anticipated.


[1] I don't know how old it was exactly - it was here before I started -
but it was running a version of Red Hat that was EOLed over a decade
ago.

-- 
Dave Sherohman

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Monday,  3 Sep 2018 at 10:42, Dan Purgert wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> That was my take on the matter as well - or at least it was a suggestion
>> that perhaps the debian lists "move away from these 'old' communication
>> channels".
>
> And it was reassuring to see that I am not alone in preferring nntp and
> other "archaic" (e.g. pop!) protocols.  I hate web based discussion fora
> and tend to avoid them (or find myself finding reasons to not go look at
> them very often).

Quite - I'm happily using gmane's(?) mailing-list-to-nntp gateway for
this; as I find it easier to keep track of things in slrn than I do in
mutt (mostly due to forgetting to check all of them).


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday,  3 Sep 2018 at 10:42, Dan Purgert wrote:

[...]

> That was my take on the matter as well - or at least it was a suggestion
> that perhaps the debian lists "move away from these 'old' communication
> channels".

And it was reassuring to see that I am not alone in preferring nntp and
other "archaic" (e.g. pop!) protocols.  I hate web based discussion fora
and tend to avoid them (or find myself finding reasons to not go look at
them very often).

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 09:06:07AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:

Some email clients have filtering.  Get one.


Many also permit the changing of the Subject: field when the topic has
wandered away from the original value.  It would be a great service to
many of one's fellow mailing list participants if more people would take
advantage of that.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Sunday,  2 Sep 2018 at 15:51, Curt wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> I knew you were humorless, but this endless OT thread is spam and
>> now represents a considerable pollutive presence in the archives.
>
> Well, I for one, have been enjoying it (or, at least, until somebody
> told somebody else to STFU).  I use Debian.  I use mailing lists
> (including linux.debian.user).  Doesn't seem OT to me.

That was my take on the matter as well - or at least it was a suggestion
that perhaps the debian lists "move away from these 'old' communication
channels".


-- 
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Mon, Sep 03, 2018 at 01:21:16AM -0400, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Curt wrote:
> 
> > You are far from the most egregious participant but are a participant
> > nonetheless, and more than once.
> 
> You're *counting*?
> 
> You point the finger and accuse, but are not complicit in the crime? This is a
> pose very familiar to all students of Nuremberg.

Aaaand ... it's Gone^BGodwin's law.

Oblig Simpson's clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGwZVGKG30s

Oblig Nazi pug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD_QlnY8Ggg

:D

Sieg Heil‼

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday,  2 Sep 2018 at 15:51, Curt wrote:

[...]

> I knew you were humorless, but this endless OT thread is spam and
> now represents a considerable pollutive presence in the archives.

Well, I for one, have been enjoying it (or, at least, until somebody
told somebody else to STFU).  I use Debian.  I use mailing lists
(including linux.debian.user).  Doesn't seem OT to me.

Chill all.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Bob Bernstein]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Curt wrote:

You are far from the most egregious participant but are a 
participant nonetheless, and more than once.


You're *counting*?

You point the finger and accuse, but are not complicit in the 
crime? This is a pose very familiar to all students of 
Nuremberg.



--
But at least let us have no more nonsense about defending 
liberty against Fascism. If liberty means anything at all 
it means the right to tell people what they do not want to 
hear.

 Orwell

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:14:02 +0200
Nicolas George  wrote:


> 
> This list is about using Debian.

It's called 'debian-user'. Which of the contributors are you suggesting
are not Debian users?

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Curt]

On 2018-09-02, John Hasler  wrote:
> Curt writes:
>> This facetiously protracted OT thread kicked off by a long-gone troll
>> has renewed my interest in the venerable STFU protocol, which might be
>> immediately employed for this specific exchange to the utmost
>> bandwidth-economizing effect.
>
> Some email clients have filtering.  Get one.

I knew you were humorless, but this endless OT thread is spam and
now represents a considerable pollutive presence in the archives.

You are far from the most egregious participant but are a participant
nonetheless, and more than once.

Filter yourself.

-- 
"She understands everything, recognizes everyone, but through her half sleep,
she simply cannot understand what power binds her hand and foot, oppresses her,
and keeps her from living."  -- Anton Chekhov, “Sleepy”

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 02 September 2018 10:06:07 John Hasler wrote:

> Curt writes:
> > This facetiously protracted OT thread kicked off by a long-gone
> > troll has renewed my interest in the venerable STFU protocol, which
> > might be immediately employed for this specific exchange to the
> > utmost bandwidth-economizing effect.
>
> Some email clients have filtering.  Get one.


+ at least 1 John. TDE's kmail works pretty good.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Nicolas George]

Dan Purgert (2018-09-02):
> Difference is, Curt chose to subscribe to this list, which happens to
> carry this thread

This list is about using Debian.
This thread is not.
Therefore, this thread is pollution on this list.

I will personally refrain from polluting further.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Nicolas George wrote:
> John Hasler (2018-09-02):
>> Some email clients have filtering.  Get one.
>
> This kind of answer is despicable. You would deserve that Curt
> subscribes your address to all junk mail lists he can find. You would
> just have to filter them.
>

Difference is, Curt chose to subscribe to this list, which happens to
carry this thread that he doesn't want to read ... and to which he told
John (if not everyone participating) to STFU.

The response then - "filter this out" - is perfectly valid.

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Nicolas George]

John Hasler (2018-09-02):
> Some email clients have filtering.  Get one.

This kind of answer is despicable. You would deserve that Curt
subscribes your address to all junk mail lists he can find. You would
just have to filter them.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

Curt writes:
> This facetiously protracted OT thread kicked off by a long-gone troll
> has renewed my interest in the venerable STFU protocol, which might be
> immediately employed for this specific exchange to the utmost
> bandwidth-economizing effect.

Some email clients have filtering.  Get one.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Curt]

On 2018-09-02, John Hasler  wrote:
> tomás writes:
>> In the US, perhaps riseup.net?
>
> I prefer newsguy.com .  They are not experiencing a financial crisis and
> have been in business for more than twenty years.  I've been satisfied
> with their service for most of this century.

This facetiously protracted OT thread kicked off by a long-gone troll
has renewed my interest in the venerable STFU protocol, which might be
immediately employed for this specific exchange to the utmost
bandwidth-economizing effect.

;-) (kinda)

-- 
"She understands everything, recognizes everyone, but through her half sleep,
she simply cannot understand what power binds her hand and foot, oppresses her,
and keeps her from living."  -- Anton Chekhov, “Sleepy”

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

tomás writes:
> In the US, perhaps riseup.net?

I prefer newsguy.com .  They are not experiencing a financial crisis and
have been in business for more than twenty years.  I've been satisfied
with their service for most of this century.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Sep 01, 2018 at 05:22:34PM -0400, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> >It prevents the deletion of emails that the same login client, on
> >a different box setup for imap, from losing their email corpus.
> 
> This sounds like "I'm from the government. I'm here to help you not
> harm yourself."

This is what I call "Emergent Evil". Emergent behaviour "just happens"
at a higher organizational level, without the involved individuals
"knowing" what they are doing. Like an anthill developing a "new"
behaviour different of that of an ant.

In this case, the driving force may well be that it's more hassle for
the ISP to deal with the furious customer who's just lost five years
of mail archives by his/her own dumb mistake than with those others
grudgingly clicking their way through that (invariably horrible)
Web "interface".

To note, and to try to address the "cui bono"? question, the real
profits go to the silos (Facebook, Microsoft, Google et al): by
making mail hardly bearable, those are going to reap the benefits.

Since they have some control over the mail clients too (ever used
Outlook? 'Nuff said), I'm sure they do help to make the water in
the well less tasty, to "help" people in the decision to buy their
bottled water.

It's not a downright conspiracy. It's more subtle. Those bigcorps
are masters in riding this pattern I call Emergent Evil. Otherwise
they wouldn't exist.

> It's just more dumbing down to the lowest common denominator Gene,
> and it means less freedom of choice for the glue-enabled in order to
> spare the others their daily ration of embarrassment.
> 
> That's my story and I may, or may not, stick to it.

I already mentioned posteo.de and mailbox.org. I'm sure you can use
IMAP there as it was intended to work. My challenge to you all: find
a similar service in your country (i.e. a mail service which may cost
something, but not much: e.g. around 1x minimum hourly wage in your
country/year), and where *you* are the customer, not the procuct.
Donation-based is also fair game. The kind of service you'd recommend
your best friend.

In the US, perhaps riseup.net?

Post it here.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Bob Bernstein]

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018, Gene Heskett wrote:

It prevents the deletion of emails that the same login client, 
on a different box setup for imap, from losing their email 
corpus.


This sounds like "I'm from the government. I'm here to help you 
not harm yourself."


It's just more dumbing down to the lowest common denominator 
Gene, and it means less freedom of choice for the glue-enabled 
in order to spare the others their daily ration of embarrassment.


That's my story and I may, or may not, stick to it.

--
But at least let us have no more nonsense about defending 
liberty against Fascism. If liberty means anything at all 
it means the right to tell people what they do not want to 
hear.

  Orwell (see http://bit.ly/2MSWhoB)

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 01 September 2018 13:54:40 Bob Bernstein wrote:

> About this ISP that prevents fetchmail from deleting messages
> after they're downloaded, may one ask, "Cui bono?"
>
> How is it in their interest to provide this um feature?

It prevents the deletion of emails that the same login client, on a 
different box setup for imap, from  losing their email corpus. And 
dovecot doesn't have an individual client config choice that they could 
enable just for the 3 or 4 of us that use fetchmail or its workalike 
cousins (getmail?) and keep our own email corpus in tde-kmail. I can and 
do clean up with a web browser as the webmail interface does let you 
clean it out. So I do that about daily.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Bob Bernstein]

About this ISP that prevents fetchmail from deleting messages
after they're downloaded, may one ask, "Cui bono?"

How is it in their interest to provide this um feature?

--
Poobah

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 01 September 2018 05:46:57 mick crane wrote:

> On 2018-08-29 10:54, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
>
> > Thats all about 10x easier than  launching a ^@& browser, logging
> > into the mail server and reading the crap presented, in the order of
> > arrivasl
> > there. But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has
> > disabled fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled email, I
> > still need to log in daily and delete the crap by hand to reduce my
> > exposure to whatever email harvesting bull crap they may do. Its not
> > a perfect solution, but it beats webmail like a white mouthed mule
> > when the + key is hit 500x a day.
>
> Oh, I thought it was just me has to do this, getting tedious.
>
> mick

My description is a  bit more colorfull than "tedious" but it is what it 
is.  Sigh...

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Sep 01, 2018 at 10:54:08AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2018-08-29 17:06, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:01:44AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >>> Massive proprietary email providers are just such points of failure.
> >>
> >>True. Explain that to your neighbor and try to convince him that
> >>it's a
> >>good reason for him to quit using Gmail.
> >
> >Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from
> >gmail/outlook
> >to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.
> >
> 
> How do you send and receive emails at night when the wind isn't
> blowing ?

You mean, because of the renewable thing?

Ever heard of electric energy storage? There are several options
available...

Yeah, yeah. I know. Germany's carbon footprint is less-than-stellar.
Some of us are working on it, wish us luck.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[mick crane]

On 2018-08-29 17:06, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:01:44AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:

[...]


> Massive proprietary email providers are just such points of failure.

True. Explain that to your neighbor and try to convince him that it's 
a

good reason for him to quit using Gmail.


Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from 
gmail/outlook

to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.



How do you send and receive emails at night when the wind isn't blowing 
?


mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[mick crane]

On 2018-08-29 10:54, Gene Heskett wrote:


Thats all about 10x easier than  launching a ^@& browser, logging into
the mail server and reading the crap presented, in the order of 
arrivasl

there. But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has disabled
fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled email, I still need
to log in daily and delete the crap by hand to reduce my exposure to
whatever email harvesting bull crap they may do. Its not a perfect
solution, but it beats webmail like a white mouthed mule when the + key
is hit 500x a day.


Oh, I thought it was just me has to do this, getting tedious.

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:35:35 - (UTC)
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
>
>> Joe wrote:
>> > On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:49:06 - (UTC)
>> > Dan Purgert  wrote:  
>> >> Isn't that what Facebook, et. al. already do? It's AOL all over
>> >> again. 
>> > Not quite yet. I can still invent a completely new protocol, send
>> > you the details, and we can exchange data over the Net using it.
>> > One day, ISPs will pass nothing but http/s.
>> >  
>> Hm, seems like that'd break quite a lot of things that're important to
>> business -- SMTP, SFTP, FTP[*], AS2 ... 
>
> Businesses are heavy users of Office 365, recent MS server

And yet they still need SMTP to send email to other businesses, be they
on a different o365 cluster, or gmail for business or still a holdout on
their own mailserver (not to mention businesses that run linux boxes and
have said boxes mailing logs and whatnot to people).


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:35:35 - (UTC)
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:49:06 - (UTC)
> > Dan Purgert  wrote:  
> >> Isn't that what Facebook, et. al. already do? It's AOL all over
> >> again. 
> > Not quite yet. I can still invent a completely new protocol, send
> > you the details, and we can exchange data over the Net using it.
> > One day, ISPs will pass nothing but http/s.
> >  
> Hm, seems like that'd break quite a lot of things that're important to
> business -- SMTP, SFTP, FTP[*], AS2 ... 

Businesses are heavy users of Office 365, recent MS server
infrastructure practically requires it. Bill Gates has been wanting to
rent out software practically from the beginning. Files are all kept in
'the cloud'. Even my accountant has outsourced all IT, and she's
practically a one-woman-band.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:49:06 - (UTC)
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
>> Isn't that what Facebook, et. al. already do? It's AOL all over again.
>>
> Not quite yet. I can still invent a completely new protocol, send you
> the details, and we can exchange data over the Net using it. One day,
> ISPs will pass nothing but http/s.
>
Hm, seems like that'd break quite a lot of things that're important to
business -- SMTP, SFTP, FTP[*], AS2 ... 

[*] Please you one last holdout using our ancient FTP service, let's
move to the 21st century and use SFTP, please?
-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:49:06 - (UTC)
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> > On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:24:42 -0500
> > John Hasler  wrote:
> >  
> >> tomás writes:  
> >> > Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from
> >> > gmail/outlook to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.
> >> 
> >> I'm sure we're losing ground, though.  
> >
> > If we get to the point where the majority dictates what Internet
> > facilities the rest may use, we've lost all the ground there is.
> >  
> Isn't that what Facebook, et. al. already do? It's AOL all over again.
> 
> 

Not quite yet. I can still invent a completely new protocol, send you
the details, and we can exchange data over the Net using it. One day,
ISPs will pass nothing but http/s.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 30 August 2018 05:53:32 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 11:53:50 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 08:25:36 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> >> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be
> >> >> >> tarred and feathered).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
> >> >>
> >> >> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
> >> >> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing
> >> >> can ever go wrong" crowd.
> >> >
> >> > I dunno Dan, tar does wash off, with enough kerosene or
> >> > turpentine.
> >>
> >> Set the person responsible on fire then?
> >
> > Thats a thought, but LE would take a very dim view, and I'd druther
> > not spend my fading time where I'd get a stripped tan.
>
> "But Judge, he's the guy that facilitated the email scammers to get
> your banking credentials and take all your money ..."

ROTFLMAO!

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 August 2018 11:53:50 Dan Purgert wrote:
>
>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 08:25:36 Dan Purgert wrote:
>> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
>> >> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be
>> >> >> tarred and feathered).
>> >> >
>> >> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
>> >>
>> >> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
>> >> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can
>> >> ever go wrong" crowd.
>> >
>> > I dunno Dan, tar does wash off, with enough kerosene or turpentine.
>>
>> Set the person responsible on fire then?
>
> Thats a thought, but LE would take a very dim view, and I'd druther not 
> spend my fading time where I'd get a stripped tan. 
>
"But Judge, he's the guy that facilitated the email scammers to get your
banking credentials and take all your money ..."


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:24:42 -0500
> John Hasler  wrote:
>
>> tomás writes:
>> > Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from
>> > gmail/outlook to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.  
>> 
>> I'm sure we're losing ground, though.
>
> If we get to the point where the majority dictates what Internet
> facilities the rest may use, we've lost all the ground there is.
>
Isn't that what Facebook, et. al. already do? It's AOL all over again.


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[David Wright]

On Wed 29 Aug 2018 at 15:07:31 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 August 2018 11:33:48 John Hasler wrote:
> 
> > Gene writes:
> > > Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email
> > > cleaned out with a web browser...
> >
> > Why in hell are you using that provider?
> 
> This is WV.  Its the only game in the area.

That's why I agreed with tomás in the other thread. (You replied to my
post with "I've had the same physical address for 29 years this fall.")

With your own domain, you are independent of the ISP's own email
service, and if you don't like the software on your email server,
you can transfer your domain to a host that gives you better
service with satisfactory software.

I selected my host on the basis of their service (availability and
usage limits) and the server (IMAP, encrypted), so it would be
pointless to have my emails forwarded to another hosting service (eg
my ISP) as suggested with Gandi (in the same thread). That's despite
the fact that they're rather a long way away.

Cheers,
David.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email
> cleaned out with a web browser...

I wrote:
> Why in hell are you using that provider?

Gene writes:
> This is WV.  Its the only game in the area.

Your ISP needn't be your email provider.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 11:53:50 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 08:25:36 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be
> >> >> tarred and feathered).
> >> >
> >> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
> >>
> >> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
> >> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can
> >> ever go wrong" crowd.
> >
> > I dunno Dan, tar does wash off, with enough kerosene or turpentine.
>
> Set the person responsible on fire then?

Thats a thought, but LE would take a very dim view, and I'd druther not 
spend my fading time where I'd get a stripped tan. 

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 11:33:48 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email
> > cleaned out with a web browser...
>
> Why in hell are you using that provider?

This is WV.  Its the only game in the area.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:24:42 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> tomás writes:
> > Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from
> > gmail/outlook to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.  
> 
> I'm sure we're losing ground, though.

If we get to the point where the majority dictates what Internet
facilities the rest may use, we've lost all the ground there is.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

tomás writes:
> Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from
> gmail/outlook to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.

I'm sure we're losing ground, though.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Miles Fidelman]

On 8/29/18 11:29 AM, John Hasler wrote:


Michael Stone wrote:

FWIW, I think SMTP (and IMAP) is on its way out as well. I expect
that in 20 years HTTP will still be going strong [...]

tomás writes:

Rather some Google/Amazon/Facebook/Microsoft backed abominable
mutation of that. One that (in subtle ways) gives a competitive
advantage to centralized services.

I think that SMTP will still be going strong but "consumers" will all
use Webmail and all but the largest organizations will either use
Webmail as well or contract for email service.  You'll be free to run
your own server (but not from home: ISPs will block it) but no one will
talk to you.


You miss the point.  SMTP is for transit between servers.  Maybe 
"consumers" prefer gmail, or yahoo, or some form of webmail - but we're 
never going to see a world where all mail goes through gmail - certainly 
not all business mail.


Chances are, that most mail - at least business mail - will originate in 
Outlook, go through an Exchange server, and from there, travel over SMTP.


Miles Fidelman



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:01:44AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:

[...]

> > Massive proprietary email providers are just such points of failure.
> 
> True. Explain that to your neighbor and try to convince him that it's a
> good reason for him to quit using Gmail.

Well, I've succeeded already with a few people moving from gmail/outlook
to posteo.de. Every little bit counts.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> I don't think it's a conspiracy.  I think most people *like*
> centralization.

Joe writes:
> But the very purpose of the Internet is to be decentralised: to avoid
> a single, or even a few, points of failure.

Was.  Past tense.

> Massive proprietary email providers are just such points of failure.

True. Explain that to your neighbor and try to convince him that it's a
good reason for him to quit using Gmail.

-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 August 2018 08:25:36 Dan Purgert wrote:
>
>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
>> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be
>> >> tarred and feathered).
>> >
>> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
>>
>> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
>> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can
>> ever go wrong" crowd.
>
> I dunno Dan, tar does wash off, with enough kerosene or turpentine.

Set the person responsible on fire then?


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:29:25 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Michael Stone wrote:
> > FWIW, I think SMTP (and IMAP) is on its way out as well. I expect
> > that in 20 years HTTP will still be going strong [...]  
> 
> tomás writes:
> > Rather some Google/Amazon/Facebook/Microsoft backed abominable
> > mutation of that. One that (in subtle ways) gives a competitive
> > advantage to centralized services.  
> 
> I think that SMTP will still be going strong but "consumers" will all
> use Webmail and all but the largest organizations will either use
> Webmail as well or contract for email service.  You'll be free to run
> your own server (but not from home: ISPs will block it) but no one
> will talk to you.
> 
> I don't think it's a conspiracy.  I think most people *like*
> centralization.

But the very purpose of the Internet is to be decentralised: to avoid a
single, or even a few, points of failure. Massive proprietary email
providers are just such points of failure. 

I'm sure it would take nothing short of a geological cataclysm to bring
down all Microsoft's servers, but were it to happen, half the businesses
on the planet will lose their email (and indeed all their documents
and their office applications). We've already seen a number of lesser
failures that shouldn't have been possible, entire airlines and banks
shut down for a day or two because their systems were centralised and
fragile.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email
> cleaned out with a web browser...

Why in hell are you using that provider?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

Michael Stone wrote:
> FWIW, I think SMTP (and IMAP) is on its way out as well. I expect
> that in 20 years HTTP will still be going strong [...]

tomás writes:
> Rather some Google/Amazon/Facebook/Microsoft backed abominable
> mutation of that. One that (in subtle ways) gives a competitive
> advantage to centralized services.

I think that SMTP will still be going strong but "consumers" will all
use Webmail and all but the largest organizations will either use
Webmail as well or contract for email service.  You'll be free to run
your own server (but not from home: ISPs will block it) but no one will
talk to you.

I don't think it's a conspiracy.  I think most people *like*
centralization.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 08:25:36 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be
> >> tarred and feathered).
> >
> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
>
> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can
> ever go wrong" crowd.

I dunno Dan, tar does wash off, with enough kerosene or turpentine.

I'd druther turn off the source of the problem so it can't make more. I 
guess that comes from a technical view of cause and effect. :) But I've 
never been accused of being too PC. ;-)

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:35:21 - (UTC)
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
>
>> Michael Stone wrote:
>> > [...] I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion 
>> > people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean
>> > priesthood based on internet protocols from the 80s.  
>> 
>> So, we need to replace HTTP then?  Got it. :)
>> 
>>
>
> No. We start with CSS...

Don't think that "Cascading Style Sheets" count as a protocol ... nor
were they a thing in the 80s.

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

 wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:25:36PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
>> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be tarred
>> >> and feathered).
>> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
>> 
>> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
>> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can ever
>> go wrong" crowd.
>
> Tarred and feathered... with painful, pointy angle brackets.

Don't have any of those, but I do have some fiber cutoffs ew can use.


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:27:41 -0400
Michael Stone  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 01:02:21PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> >No, very occasionally, a proposed change is a clear improvement.
> >Usually it's just about altering the distribution of income.  
> 
> Rather, in my experience, resistance to change is usually about 
> preserving the status quo and reinforcing the existing division of 
> winners and losers.
> 
> For example, in this thread, we see that mechanisms which make more 
> information available to more people in a more easily accesible form 
> must be worse because those people don't know what they're doing. Or 
> something. I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion 
> people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean
> priesthood based on internet protocols from the 80s. (Regardless of
> how great those protocols are if you just understand them properly.)
> 

I was around when Microsoft abandoned Usenet for shiny new web forums.
I used to post on the Small Business Server newsgroup. I'd look in two
or three times a day, usually add one or two posts. After the change, I
couldn't just type a line or two, I had to login. The next time I
looked in, I had to login again because it had timed out. After I
while, I only bothered to login if I had two or three posts to make, it
wasn't worth the effort otherwise. After a couple of months, I stopped
going there at all, and several other frequent posters had already
dropped out.

I don't know how to convey this, but the whole thing had a very
different feel. Before, I'd been among friends, afterwards, I was very
conscious of the interface and the moderators, of Microsoft looking
over my shoulder... there were no winners or losers on Usenet, we all
helped each other. Afterwards, not so much.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:35:21PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:

Michael Stone wrote:

[...] I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion
people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean priesthood
based on internet protocols from the 80s.


So, we need to replace HTTP then?  Got it. :)


You might not have noticed, but HTTP is evolving...

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:35:21 - (UTC)
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> Michael Stone wrote:
> > [...] I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion 
> > people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean
> > priesthood based on internet protocols from the 80s.  
> 
> So, we need to replace HTTP then?  Got it. :)
> 
>

No. We start with CSS...

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Michael Stone wrote:
> [...] I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion 
> people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean priesthood 
> based on internet protocols from the 80s.

So, we need to replace HTTP then?  Got it. :)

That being said, "bringing more people online" has very little to do
with the underlying protocols that handle the transfer of data. 

If we assume that these "billion people" aren't online because either

 - no access to computers in general OR
 - access to a computer, but no access to internet

Then they're blank slates, and arguably in a better position to be
taught about these supposedly archaic tools and protocols, rather than
letting them be "trapped" in the walled gardens of facebook and the
like.

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:25:36PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be tarred
> >> and feathered).
> > Emasculated would be even better. :(
> 
> perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
> reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can ever
> go wrong" crowd.

Tarred and feathered... with painful, pointy angle brackets.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 08:27:41AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 01:02:21PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> >No, very occasionally, a proposed change is a clear improvement.
> >Usually it's just about altering the distribution of income.
> 
> Rather, in my experience, resistance to change is usually about
> preserving the status quo and reinforcing the existing division of
> winners and losers.
> 
> For example, in this thread, we see

Whoever that "we" is. You, sure. Me, not.

> that mechanisms which make more
> information available to more people in a more easily accesible form
> must be worse because those people don't know what they're doing. Or
> something. I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion
> people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean
> priesthood based on internet protocols from the 80s. (Regardless of
> how great those protocols are if you just understand them properly.)

That's your world view, and you are entitled to it. It's not mine,
and there are others disagreeing here. Let's agree to differ. Content
has been exchanged, I think we've had the chance to understand each
other's point, we've even exchanged mild insults "shiny folks" vs
"luddites" -- let's leave it at this.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:
>> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be tarred
>> and feathered).
> Emasculated would be even better. :(

perhaps ... but at least tarred and feathered would be a visible
reminder to the rest of the "hey this is a great idea, nothing can ever
go wrong" crowd.


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 01:02:21PM +0100, Joe wrote:

No, very occasionally, a proposed change is a clear improvement.
Usually it's just about altering the distribution of income.


Rather, in my experience, resistance to change is usually about 
preserving the status quo and reinforcing the existing division of 
winners and losers.


For example, in this thread, we see that mechanisms which make more 
information available to more people in a more easily accesible form 
must be worse because those people don't know what they're doing. Or 
something. I personally tend to think that bringing the next billion 
people online is more important than maintaining a Manichaean priesthood 
based on internet protocols from the 80s. (Regardless of how great those 
protocols are if you just understand them properly.)

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

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Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 01:02:21PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:58:03 +0200
>  wrote:
> 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:55:46PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Change, when it is obviously for the worse, and even just when it's
> > > not obviously for the better, should be resisted.  
> > 
> > Change should be *always* resisted. On principle!
> > 
> 
> No, very occasionally, a proposed change is a clear improvement.
> Usually it's just about altering the distribution of income.

Hey, this was tongue-in-cheek. I know life is change. You stop
changing when you're dead (in a certain sense: in a more general
sense, you don't, but what /is/ "you" when you're dead, anyway?)

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:58:03 +0200
 wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:55:46PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Change, when it is obviously for the worse, and even just when it's
> > not obviously for the better, should be resisted.  
> 
> Change should be *always* resisted. On principle!
> 

No, very occasionally, a proposed change is a clear improvement.
Usually it's just about altering the distribution of income.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:55:46PM +0100, Joe wrote:

[...]

> Change, when it is obviously for the worse, and even just when it's not
> obviously for the better, should be resisted.

Change should be *always* resisted. On principle!

(Remember: I'm the luddite ;-P

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Joe]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:39:12 +0200
 wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 06:57:01AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 09:33:16AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:  
> > >And Gnus. That's exactly the point all those "yay, modern, shiny"
> > >folks don't "get":  
> > 
> > But what the luddites seem to miss is that the protocol is far less
> > important than the content, and even if the luddites don't like the
> > new stuff, most people do--and take the content with them.  
> 
> [...]
> 
> I'll carry the "luddite" as an honour badge, then.
> 
Change, when it is obviously for the worse, and even just when it's not
obviously for the better, should be resisted.

-- 
Joe

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 06:57:01AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 09:33:16AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >And Gnus. That's exactly the point all those "yay, modern, shiny"
> >folks don't "get":
> 
> But what the luddites seem to miss is that the protocol is far less
> important than the content, and even if the luddites don't like the
> new stuff, most people do--and take the content with them.

[...]

I'll carry the "luddite" as an honour badge, then.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:57:01 Michael Stone wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 09:33:16AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >And Gnus. That's exactly the point all those "yay, modern, shiny"
> >folks don't "get":
>
> But what the luddites seem to miss is that the protocol is far less
> important than the content, and even if the luddites don't like the
> new stuff, most people do--and take the content with them.
> Increasingly, people who refuse to use anything new and shiny will be
> put out to pasture in an ever shrinking corner of the net. It reminds
> me of the passionate amiga or vax fans of a couple of decades ago--at
> some point it doesn't really matter who was right; the systems are
> dead and buried. That said, there's enough legacy stuff out there that
> most of the luddites can probably finish out their careers without
> ever learning anything new, if that's what they want.

Point taken. But I won't last forever like Jimmy Carter, even had a 
wakeup call in the form of a pulmonary embolism that came very close to 
putting a
~30~
on the end of my story 3 years back. I don't recommend it as a way to 
die, it scary as hell not being able to take a breath. But I will 
eventually go away. I've had an interesting ride for nearly 84 years 
now. And a list of BTDT's that most wouldn't believe...

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:37:25 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:05:52 Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 03:33:16 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >> > [...] But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has
> >> > disabled fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled
> >> > email, I still need to log in daily  [...]
> >> >
> >> > So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you
> >> > can. Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the
> >> > other way around by creating circuitous ways past the ticket
> >> > taker.
> >>
> >> Sounds a bit odd, since fetchmail can (apparently) be configured to
> >> tell the other end to delete the mails it pulls.
> >>
> >> Alternately, do they provide pop3 access?
> >
> > Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email
> > cleaned out with a web browser,
>
> aww, that's stupid.
>
> Maybe connect to it with tbird for the cleanup instead?  It'll at
> least let you go through everything without automatically downloading
> all the images / tracking cookies / etc.
>
> (as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be tarred
> and feathered).
Emasculated would be even better. :(


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 09:33:16AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

And Gnus. That's exactly the point all those "yay, modern, shiny"
folks don't "get":


But what the luddites seem to miss is that the protocol is far less 
important than the content, and even if the luddites don't like the new 
stuff, most people do--and take the content with them. Increasingly, 
people who refuse to use anything new and shiny will be put out to 
pasture in an ever shrinking corner of the net. It reminds me of the 
passionate amiga or vax fans of a couple of decades ago--at some point 
it doesn't really matter who was right; the systems are dead and buried. 
That said, there's enough legacy stuff out there that most of the 
luddites can probably finish out their careers without ever learning 
anything new, if that's what they want.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:05:52 Dan Purgert wrote:
>
>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 03:33:16 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> > [...] But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has
>> > disabled fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled email, I
>> > still need to log in daily  [...]
>> >
>> > So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you
>> > can. Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other
>> > way around by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.
>>
>> Sounds a bit odd, since fetchmail can (apparently) be configured to
>> tell the other end to delete the mails it pulls.
>>
>> Alternately, do they provide pop3 access?
>
> Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email 
> cleaned out with a web browser,
>

aww, that's stupid. 

Maybe connect to it with tbird for the cleanup instead?  It'll at least
let you go through everything without automatically downloading all the
images / tracking cookies / etc.

(as an aside, whoever came up with HTML-based email should be tarred and
feathered).


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Eric S Fraga]

On Wednesday, 29 Aug 2018 at 05:54, Gene Heskett wrote:
> So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you can. 
> Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other way around 
> by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.

+1 from another old fart.

I've recently gone back to using pop with my main mail server
(office365) as the only way to remain in control of my email.  Luckily
they still allow this.  For how long is anybody's guess.

I use Emacs gnus giving me splitting, scoring, spam control, ...

And I love nntp access to newsgroups and mailing lists.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:05:52 Dan Purgert wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 August 2018 03:33:16 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > [...] But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has
> > disabled fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled email, I
> > still need to log in daily  [...]
> >
> > So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you
> > can. Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other
> > way around by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.
>
> Sounds a bit odd, since fetchmail can (apparently) be configured to
> tell the other end to delete the mails it pulls.
>
> Alternately, do they provide pop3 access?

Yes, but fetchmails delete is ignored, so I have to keep the email 
cleaned out with a web browser,

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 06:03:30 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 05:54:38AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Which is why, in this age of feeding 100 megs of advertising to the
> > browser client [...]
>
> ...for which NNTP would be actually very inefficient ;-D
>
> [...]
>
> > procmail, sends the tde version of kmail a "get mail" message over
> > dbus
>
> dbus. Eeek ;-)
>
> But no, seriously: since mail is such an abstract protocol, it does
> allow this kind of thing.
>
> > So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you
> > can. Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other
> > way around by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.
>
> So that's why you can bury us under such an amount of mails ;-P
>
> Rock on!
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás

Spot on Tomas.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 August 2018 03:33:16 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> [...] But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has disabled 
> fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled email, I still need 
> to log in daily  [...]
>
> So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you can. 
> Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other way around 
> by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.

Sounds a bit odd, since fetchmail can (apparently) be configured to tell
the other end to delete the mails it pulls. 

Alternately, do they provide pop3 access?


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 05:54:38AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> Which is why, in this age of feeding 100 megs of advertising to the 
> browser client [...]

...for which NNTP would be actually very inefficient ;-D

[...]

> procmail, sends the tde version of kmail a "get mail" message over dbus 

dbus. Eeek ;-)

But no, seriously: since mail is such an abstract protocol, it does
allow this kind of thing.

> So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you can. 
> Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other way around 
> by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.

So that's why you can bury us under such an amount of mails ;-P

Rock on!

Cheers
- -- tomás
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=17Gr
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 29 August 2018 03:33:16 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 08:28:56PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Last time I looked, Thunderbird & Exchange both support news - a
> > newsgroup looks just like another email account.
>
> And Gnus. That's exactly the point all those "yay, modern, shiny"
> folks don't "get":
>
> SMTP, NNTP and IMAP are abstract (and relatively
> stable) interfaces which allow the development of a bunch of different
> clients which suit a hugely diverse user base, even as weird folks
> as me. User is queen: GOOD
>
> On a "web forum", me, the user, gotta put up with whatever dorky
> "web GUI" some random "startup" has come up with. And they often are
> dorky for a reason, the provider is basing its business model on
> this (branding, embedding ads, sucking up data, you name it). There's
> often a "REST interface", but it is at a much lower abstraction level
> as SMTP et al -- and it is a moving target: often, the server and
> client parts are in one repository, tied by a framework. You can
> change the interface spec at a whim, since the browser downloads the
> new client code. That means that me, as a user have to put up with
> whatever cruel abomination the provider has thought up for me.
> Provider is king: BAD.
>
> That's at least my take on it. It isn't something we all are going
> to agree on, as in the GPL vs BSD/MIT thing -- your opinion will
> depend on which side you lean towards (my "good"/"bad" above reflect
> my personal leanings, shouldn't you have noticed :-)
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás

Which is why, in this age of feeding 100 megs of advertising to the 
browser client before allowing the materiel clicked on to be displayed, 
often in a smaller more space efficient font that has you expanding your 
right hands reach to hit the ctrl+ + keys to expand it to easily read, 
this obnoxious old fart still pulls his email with fetchmail, which 
hands it off to procmail which then runs it past clamav and spamassassin 
and a few of its own recipes that end in /dev/null, and what survives is 
written to /var/spool/mail/gene.  And /var/spool/mail is watched by 
inotifywait launched by a bash script I wrote called mailwatcher which 
when inotifywait exits with the name of the file just closed by 
procmail, sends the tde version of kmail a "get mail" message over dbus 
and fires up inotifywait to do it all over again with the next incoming 
message. That reduces the work I have to do to a tap of the + key to 
read the next message, reply to it if I can help or comment as in now, 
and when done adding my voice to the thread, a ctrl + RETURN sends my 
prose back to the list. And a tap on the + key takes me to the next 
unread message.

Thats all about 10x easier than  launching a ^@& browser, logging into 
the mail server and reading the crap presented, in the order of arrivasl 
there. But because 99% of my ISP's users use IMAP, my ISP has disabled 
fetchmails ability to delete a successfully pulled email, I still need 
to log in daily and delete the crap by hand to reduce my exposure to 
whatever email harvesting bull crap they may do. Its not a perfect 
solution, but it beats webmail like a white mouthed mule when the + key 
is hit 500x a day.

So I'm an obnoxious old fart, show me an even better way, if you can. 
Computers are supposed to do work FOR the user, not the other way around 
by creating circuitous ways past the ticket taker.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 08:28:56PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

[...]

> Last time I looked, Thunderbird & Exchange both support news - a
> newsgroup looks just like another email account.

And Gnus. That's exactly the point all those "yay, modern, shiny"
folks don't "get":

SMTP, NNTP and IMAP are abstract (and relatively
stable) interfaces which allow the development of a bunch of different
clients which suit a hugely diverse user base, even as weird folks
as me. User is queen: GOOD

On a "web forum", me, the user, gotta put up with whatever dorky
"web GUI" some random "startup" has come up with. And they often are
dorky for a reason, the provider is basing its business model on
this (branding, embedding ads, sucking up data, you name it). There's
often a "REST interface", but it is at a much lower abstraction level
as SMTP et al -- and it is a moving target: often, the server and
client parts are in one repository, tied by a framework. You can
change the interface spec at a whim, since the browser downloads the
new client code. That means that me, as a user have to put up with
whatever cruel abomination the provider has thought up for me.
Provider is king: BAD.

That's at least my take on it. It isn't something we all are going
to agree on, as in the GPL vs BSD/MIT thing -- your opinion will
depend on which side you lean towards (my "good"/"bad" above reflect
my personal leanings, shouldn't you have noticed :-)

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 09:05:23PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

[...]

> FWIW, I think SMTP (and IMAP) is on its way out as well. I expect
> that in 20 years HTTP will still be going strong [...]

Rather some Google/Amazon/Facebook/Microsoft backed abominable mutation
of that. One that (in subtle ways) gives a competitive advantage to
centralized services.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Dan Purgert]

Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:18:59AM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:
> [...]
> FWIW, I think SMTP (and IMAP) is on its way out as well.

What would SMTP get replaced with?  I mean, email is still kind of a big
thing (at least in business).


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:18:59AM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:

I have at no stage advocated a "generic architecture of NNTP transit servers".

I have at no stage advocated any NNTP servers being "open to arbitrary groups",
other than those created by group owners.


[snip long list of other things you haven't said]

You're right; the problem is that you haven't said much at all of any 
substance, so I find myself trying to guess how the vague things you do
say could possibly map to anything in the real world. I'll stop doing 
that.



Fine, so you prefer web UIs, if I understand you correctly.


No, I hate them. But I'm a realist and I understand why things are 
evolving the way they are.



   So the "broad client support" in question would be a web browser and that
   basically includes everything. Welcome to the 21st century!


Except that web browsers accessing web forums in the 21st Century don't do
everything. They can't. Other tools do some things better. That's rather the
point. There are other tools that bring other capabilities to the table. For
example, some of these tools are the NNTP and SMTP and IMAP protocols


FWIW, I think SMTP (and IMAP) is on its way out as well. I expect that 
in 20 years HTTP will still be going strong but SMTP will be a legacy 
protocol with dwindling recognition (the way NNTP is today). The 
theories about the superiority of NNTP and SMTP and IMAP are less 
compelling than the reality that the class of protocols designed for the 
internet of the 1980s are too susceptible to abuse for use on the modern 
internet. If SMTP does have a strong presence in 20 years it will 
probably be in a form that isn't interoperable with a 2018 SMTP 
implementation. (Which is not entirely impossible; unlike NNTP, SMTP 
isn't too moribund to evolve. I think it's just unlikely to evolve 
enough.)


Most people currently under the age of 20 probably won't notice that it's gone.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Miles Fidelman]

On 8/28/18 5:24 PM, Mark Rousell wrote:

I was going to say that you and I have started going round in circles 
and should just agree to disagree about certain things but this is a 
different strand of the discussion that still seems to be advancing.


On 28/08/2018 20:01, Michael Stone wrote:

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 04:46:15PM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:
web forums, app-based, IM-style, etc.) but none of that, to my mind, 
lessens
NNTP's ideal applicability to getting private discussion group 
messages from

place to place (the front end UI/UX being a different thing again).


Ignoring the changes to user requirements for UI/UX is at least part 
of why NNTP is no longer a major factor in internet usage.


Last time I looked, Thunderbird & Exchange both support news - a 
newsgroup looks just like another email account.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Mark Rousell]

On 28/08/2018 23:25, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:24:51PM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:
>>If you have a bunch of users on remote SMTP and NNTP servers then
>> it's
>>always a wash. (MUAs don't typically download the entire message body
>>unless asked to, just as news readers don't typically download the
>> entire
>>message body unless asked to.) Basically, the efficiency argument
>> is bogus.
>>
>>
>> I can only say that I disagree that the bandwidth efficiency is bogus
>> overall.
>>
>> If by "remote [...] NNTP servers" you mean other NNTP servers that are
>> federated with your own, then this is surely a bandwidth saving
>> compared to
>> email. I.e. The data only needs to be sent once to the remote NNTP
>> servers for
>> local distribution to users who connect to those servers, thus reducing
>> bandwidth usage overall.
>
> No, because the idea of having ISPs set up NNTP transit servers for
> individual small discussion groups is...unlikely at best.

Well, I expect you're not going to like me saying this but isn't
expecting ISPs to do this more Usenet-style thinking? People don't
expect ISPs to run forum servers or mail list servers, so why should
they expect them to run NNTP servers for private discussions groups?

> so stop talking about 'a generic architecture of NNTP transit servers
> that isn't usenet but is still open to arbitrary groups and users but
> doesn't have any of the problems of usenet because it's carefully
> controlled and thus doesn't have abuse issues but isn't prohibitively
> resource intensive and people will set up serves and join the network
> because nobody likes stupid old HTTP anyway'

I have at no stage advocated a "generic architecture of NNTP transit
servers".

I have at no stage advocated any NNTP servers being "open to arbitrary
groups", other than those created by group owners.

I have at no stage suggested that it wouldn't have abuse issues, only
that abuse issues can be handled just as they are right now on any
non-federated NNTP server, on any mail list, on any web forum, or similar.

Indeed, NNTP is not prohibitively resource intensive when used as a
private discussion group protocol. You got that bit right.

I have at no stage suggested that people necessarily would want to set
up their own servers (although in principle they could). This sort of
thing is more likely to be run as a service, just as mail servers, mail
list services, and web forums often are at present.

And I have at no stage suggested that people don't like HTTP.

What I have been talking about (since I mentioned I'll be working on
NNTP) is implementing NNTP as an alternative access methodology to
message resources accessible via other means as well. There's more to
the project than that but this is the aspect that seem related to this
thread.

> and instead start talking about something that's likely to be
> implemented: centralized NNTP gateways to the services most people
> will use via SMTP or HTTP, with NNTP client access to the gateway.

This sounds a bit like trying to reinvent Usenet. It's not going to
happen that way.

> You might see people create private transit servers for local access,
> but the number of clients using such servers instead of the primary
> one would suggest de minimis bandwidth savings. If anything, the
> private transit servers would end up like most private debian archive
> mirrors and consume more bandwidth than they save (because most of the
> transferred files never get used). And in this model, any putative
> "transfer efficiency of NNTP" is simply not compelling.

Quite possibly. Although we've discussed the bandwidth efficiency of
NNTP at excessive length, it's admittedly not the primary driving
motivation for this work.

But, all the same, if bandwidth efficiency is an issue then I'd say that
NNTP is good for this scenario. YMMV of course, and that's fine.

>
> It's so incredibly uncommon to find a REST based discussion forum that
> doesn't come with its own HTML UI that I don't consider it worth
> considering.

Fine, so you prefer web UIs, if I understand you correctly.

> So the "broad client support" in question would be a web browser and
> that basically includes everything. Welcome to the 21st century!

Except that web browsers accessing web forums in the 21st Century don't
do everything. They can't. Other tools do some things better. That's
rather the point. There are other tools that bring other capabilities to
the table. For example, some of these tools are the NNTP and SMTP and
IMAP protocols, and these can be accessed by mail clients and NNTP
clients. These protocols and clients facilitate users who prefer these
tools to do things like choose their own client apps, control how their
UI appears, manage who they view and store data, and so on. These
approaches provide way more capability and are way more flexible than
any web forum's HTML UI.

Earlier in this very thread, Rich Kulawiec posted this extensive list of

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Michael Stone]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:24:51PM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:

   If you have a bunch of users on remote SMTP and NNTP servers then it's
   always a wash. (MUAs don't typically download the entire message body
   unless asked to, just as news readers don't typically download the entire
   message body unless asked to.) Basically, the efficiency argument is bogus.


I can only say that I disagree that the bandwidth efficiency is bogus overall.

If by "remote [...] NNTP servers" you mean other NNTP servers that are
federated with your own, then this is surely a bandwidth saving compared to
email. I.e. The data only needs to be sent once to the remote NNTP servers for
local distribution to users who connect to those servers, thus reducing
bandwidth usage overall.


No, because the idea of having ISPs set up NNTP transit servers for 
individual small discussion groups is...unlikely at best. You've already 
stipulated that you don't want to talk about usenet, so stop talking 
about 'a generic architecture of NNTP transit servers that isn't usenet 
but is still open to arbitrary groups and users but doesn't have any of 
the problems of usenet because it's carefully controlled and thus 
doesn't have abuse issues but isn't prohibitively resource intensive 
and people will set up serves and join the network because nobody likes 
stupid old HTTP anyway' and instead start talking about something that's likely 
to be implemented: centralized NNTP gateways to the services most people 
will use via SMTP or HTTP, with NNTP client access to the gateway. You 
might see people create private transit servers for local access, but 
the number of clients using such servers instead of the primary one 
would suggest de minimis bandwidth savings. If anything, the private 
transit servers would end up like most private debian archive mirrors 
and consume more bandwidth than they save (because most of the 
transferred files never get used). And in this model, any putative 
"transfer efficiency of NNTP" is simply not compelling.



I know you know this but I'll say it anyway: REST isn't a single protocol, it's
just a type of protocol. There are loads of REST-based protocols around. Which
one do you choose? There are no standardised REST protocols for message
distribution that I am aware of. There's nothing REST-based that is like SMTP,
or POP3, or IMAP, or NNTP, or anything else that has broad client support
across a range of device types in this context.


It's so incredibly uncommon to find a REST based discussion forum that 
doesn't come with its own HTML UI that I don't consider it worth 
considering. So the "broad client support" in question would be a web 
browser and that basically includes everything. Welcome to the 21st 
century! Then, if your content is compelling enough, people will use 
whatever wacky REST API they need to get your content if they want to go 
beyond the HTML UI. I'd guess that the number of people using google 
APIs (for example) today, whether knowingly or unknowingly, exceeds the 
total number of people that ever used NNTP, even if those people just 
don't understand how things would be better if they were using NNTP 
instead. If you meant to talk only about dedicated protocol-specific 
thick clients, then yeah, there probably aren't as many for specific web 
forums as there are clients for SMTP, POP3, IMAP, or NNTP. But most 
people don't really care. (Yes, I've gathered by this point that your 
number one requirement is the ability to use an NNTP client--I'm 
referring to the other people.)



hopefully inoffensive manner.


Sorry, no. 

But anyway, I get that you really really like NNTP. Have fun, don't 
expect a lot of converts.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Mark Rousell]

I was going to say that you and I have started going round in circles
and should just agree to disagree about certain things but this is a
different strand of the discussion that still seems to be advancing.

On 28/08/2018 20:01, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 04:46:15PM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:
>> web forums, app-based, IM-style, etc.) but none of that, to my mind,
>> lessens
>> NNTP's ideal applicability to getting private discussion group
>> messages from
>> place to place (the front end UI/UX being a different thing again).
>
> Ignoring the changes to user requirements for UI/UX is at least part
> of why NNTP is no longer a major factor in internet usage.

I agree to a considerable extent and I don't think I advocated ignoring
changes to user requirements for UI/UX. When I say "the front end UI/UX
being a different thing again" I mean that it's a different discussion,
not that a designer should ignore it.

And making NNTP available as an access method (certainly not a sole
access method) is not ignoring it.

>
>> The key advantage of NNTP over email/SMTP in terms of bandwidth
>> efficiency is
>> that, with NNTP, messages are only sent to users when they explicitly
>> ask for
>> them. This is more bandwidth-efficient than an email-based list since
>> the
>> email-based list must send out messages to each and every user
>> whether or not
>> they want them.
>
> It's more efficient at the provider level until someone decides they
> want all of the messages local, either as an archive or to run local
> search tools, etc. At that point you're transferring all of the
> messages just as you would via SMTP and it's basically a wash.

That's fine. Not everyone wants that but, for those who do, it's
certainly no worse than email. So I don't see it as a problem.

> If you have a bunch of users on remote SMTP and NNTP servers then it's
> always a wash. (MUAs don't typically download the entire message body
> unless asked to, just as news readers don't typically download the
> entire message body unless asked to.) Basically, the efficiency
> argument is bogus.

I can only say that I disagree that the bandwidth efficiency is bogus
overall.

If by "remote [...] NNTP servers" you mean other NNTP servers that are
federated with your own, then this is surely a bandwidth saving compared
to email. I.e. The data only needs to be sent once to the remote NNTP
servers for local distribution to users who connect to those servers,
thus reducing bandwidth usage overall.

> the bandwidth in question is so small as to not matter anyway.(We call
> this "premature optimization"; there are other concerns that are far
> more significant--like the UI/UX.) The entire 25 year archive of
> debian lists is probably on the order of one or two netflix movies.

Whilst I agree that UI/UX are important to users (which of course is
exactly why many prefer to receive their message via NNTP, so that they
can control their UI/UX), it is not necessarily the case that bandwidth
is always small. A static archive is not the bandwidth.

>
>> To my mind, a REST protocol has a different (but overlapping) use
>> case to NNTP
>> or email lists. I know of no standard, open REST protocol that
>> replaces either
>> NNTP or email discussion lists, for example.
>
> But there are a heck of a lot more deployed REST clients than NNTP
> clients.

I know you know this but I'll say it anyway: REST isn't a single
protocol, it's just a type of protocol. There are loads of REST-based
protocols around. Which one do you choose? There are no standardised
REST protocols for message distribution that I am aware of. There's
nothing REST-based that is like SMTP, or POP3, or IMAP, or NNTP, or
anything else that has broad client support across a range of device
types in this context.

Or is there? Have I overlooked anything?

Furthermore, there's no point saying that there are other protocols when
those other protocols do not and cannot address the use case that one
particular protocol, NNTP in this case, can and does address.

I am not saying that REST does not have its place. It's just that NNTP
(alongside other protocols and types of protocol, both standardised and
proprietary) is something that fulfils a currently commonly unfilled use
case, one that in fact does have demand.

> You can shake your fist at the cloud all you want, but reality is what
> it is. Consequently, a good experience for HTTP consumers is going to
> be a higher priority than NNTP users.

There are many possible priorities and different businesses and services
providers have different customer bases who have different sets of
priorities. I've not said that a web browser-based UI is unimportant (in
fact I think you'll note I've said that it is important for most users)
but that doesn't mean that a variety of access methodologies are not
also important.

> The numbers are so skewed as to raise valid questions about whether
> the small number of NNTP users is worth committing development 

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[John Hasler]

As a totally theoretical aside, it should be noted that NNTP is a peer
to peer protocol.  At one time news servers and spools were so
heavyweight that they required a VAX (leading to the client-server model
of news that is the only way most people think it can work), but by
modern standards the servers require negligible resources and a spool
(especially if it only handles a few private newsgoups such as the
Debian lists) is small potatoes.  Every debian-user subscriber could run
a local server for as many of the Debian lists as they chose to
subscribe to at a lower cost in resources than running their own mail
server.

Will never happen, of course.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA