Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 02:17:47 +1100, Rob Weir wrote: > > > csj wrote: > > > > >Real world case: scribus (probably the best GPL'ed or better > > >DTP app). > > I never did find out about this. If it doesn't work, perhaps > you should file a wishlist bug on the package asking for > support. Apparently fixed in the CVS version (unpackaged) of the program. Another proof that the opensource method works? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 04:19:48PM -0800, Daniel L. Miller said > csj wrote: > >Real world case: scribus (probably the best GPL'ed or better DTP > >app). I never did find out about this. If it doesn't work, perhaps you should file a wishlist bug on the package asking for support. > But doing this does not appear to give me all my fonts in different > programs. Only programs using "X core fonts" will have access to fonts shared with a font server. Things like GNOME2 and KDE3 use fontconfig which to the best of my knowledge is not able to access fonts via a X font server. > Am I better off with sharing that server's font directory > and not using XFT at all? Hm, that could work. Post to the list when you've tried it? -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: supercomputer Firewalls UNSCOM ISEC keyhole number key Taiwan signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
csj wrote: At Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:46:15 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 07:59:16AM +0800, csj said On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:27:14 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a new font, it handles setting up symlinks and such so that you can just point X at /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave it alone. Without defoma, you'd have to point X at wherever fonts installed themselves, and update the various fonts.* files that live next to the fonts. I have two problems with such a setup: First is that the official xserver-xfree86 package appears not to be defoma- or at least x-ttcidfont-conf-aware. So I have to do a trick or two with my favorite editor after reconfiguring xserver-xfree86. (Actually the editor part is just cat font_path.txt >> XF86Config-4) Should this be filed as a wishlist bug? No, it will be handled by a different system. See bug #202096. Second is that I have a program that for some reason doesn't recognize symlinks. Which symlinks? In /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType? X or your fontserver looks in there, no user X program needs ever touch them, they get all their font data from the X server. Real world case: scribus (probably the best GPL'ed or better DTP app). Not to deviate too much - but still under this topic: Reading the information on font servers, it would appear that my preferred setup would be to install all my fonts on a single server, setup XFT on that machine, and then point all my X workstations at that XFT server. But doing this does not appear to give me all my fonts in different programs. Am I better off with sharing that server's font directory and not using XFT at all? I primarily utilize TrueType fonts - and I'm still supporting Windoze applications with Wine. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 02:23:02AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said > > > On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Rob, > > > > Thanks much for writing this up. > > > > One issue I have problems with is solving font problems with specific > > applications. It think that's due to my general lack of understanding > > of fonts, and that there's more than one font system in use. > > > > I would love to see a trouble shooting section. I'm not sure what it > > would include, but perhaps use of strace or ldd to determine what font > > system the application is using. > Hi, > I'd second that! I'd like to know what which font management is used by > App X, so that I know how to address font problems. Maybe it could be > added to packages like: readme.font-config or added to the pkg info like > 'installed-size'. Better font info and thus handling would go a long way > to makeing gnu/linux and debian better accecpted. This bit is easy, since the information is already available in the packaging system: look at the Depends of the app in question. If it Depends on fontconfig, you have your answer. If it depends on xft1, same again. If it depends on libqt3c101-mt or libgtk2.0-0 (the current Qt and GTK versions in unstable) then it's using fontconfig, too. If the only GUI-sounding library it depends on is xlibs, then it's probably just using the basic X core font system. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: national information infrastructure supercomputer halcon signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Tue, Oct 21, 2003 at 07:28:36AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said > Rob, > > Thanks much for writing this up. > > One issue I have problems with is solving font problems with specific > applications. It think that's due to my general lack of understanding > of fonts, and that there's more than one font system in use. > > I would love to see a trouble shooting section. I'm not sure what it > would include, but perhaps use of strace or ldd to determine what font > system the application is using. And then how to test various steps of > the font selection and rendering process. (I suppose it would be > helpful for me to see how to write a small application that selects > fonts to understand that part of the font puzzle). > > As an example, sometimes mozilla's font display is rotten. I suspect > what's happening is X is making a poor font substitution. I'd like to > know how to debug the process from the font mozilla asks for (assuming > from or style sheet) and what font actually gets selected by the > X server for display. > > Another example is I happen to like the font used for xterm. I don't > use an .Xdefault setting for xterm. So if I wanted to use that font in > gvim how would determine what font xterm is using? > > I don't really want to know how to do those specific things as much as > know how to figure out how to do those things. ;) This is a very interesting point, and I'm still mulling it over. I'm not really sure how to express general knowledge like this, I only know what I do from experience. An explanation of how the whole X/xft/fontconfig font system works and inter-relates is definitely something I'd like to write sometime, but I'll have to understand the whole thing myself, first :) -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day:Etacs strategic Saddam Hussein import Pakistan InfoSec signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 02:23:02AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > ... > > One issue I have problems with is solving font problems with specific > > applications. It think that's due to my general lack of understanding > > of fonts, and that there's more than one font system in use. > > ... > ... > I'd second that! I'd like to know what which font management is used by > App X, so that I know how to address font problems. Maybe it could be > added to packages like: readme.font-config or added to the pkg info like > 'installed-size'. Better font info and thus handling would go a long way > to makeing gnu/linux and debian better accecpted. I've been trying to change to different fonts in the xfig app, but it seems to compile-in all its fonts, even to the point of presenting fonts in its menus which don't exist on the system. I've installed some additional fonts on my system (woody), but have yet to figure out how to get xfig to use them, and AFAICT there's no way to do so. Looking at xfig's source, it uses standard XLib functions to manipulate fonts, but apparently hard-codes the list of fonts to use. plotutils also seems to do hard-code its fonts, at least according to a quick glance at the source. I wonder if there's something special about these apps that dictate this, perhaps performance? I'd prefer to have greater flexibility (in font selection) over performance, but maybe there are other reasons. Ken PS, OT: Bracing myself for a new swen onslaught triggered by posting this, now that the last "attack" has slowed to 5 or so per day after a couple posts some weeks ago. -- Ken Irving, Research Analyst, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 907-474-6152 Water and Environmental Research Center Institute of Northern Engineering University of Alaska, Fairbanks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Rob, > > Thanks much for writing this up. > > One issue I have problems with is solving font problems with specific > applications. It think that's due to my general lack of understanding > of fonts, and that there's more than one font system in use. > > I would love to see a trouble shooting section. I'm not sure what it > would include, but perhaps use of strace or ldd to determine what font > system the application is using. Hi, I'd second that! I'd like to know what which font management is used by App X, so that I know how to address font problems. Maybe it could be added to packages like: readme.font-config or added to the pkg info like 'installed-size'. Better font info and thus handling would go a long way to makeing gnu/linux and debian better accecpted. -Kev -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Rob, Thanks much for writing this up. One issue I have problems with is solving font problems with specific applications. It think that's due to my general lack of understanding of fonts, and that there's more than one font system in use. I would love to see a trouble shooting section. I'm not sure what it would include, but perhaps use of strace or ldd to determine what font system the application is using. And then how to test various steps of the font selection and rendering process. (I suppose it would be helpful for me to see how to write a small application that selects fonts to understand that part of the font puzzle). As an example, sometimes mozilla's font display is rotten. I suspect what's happening is X is making a poor font substitution. I'd like to know how to debug the process from the font mozilla asks for (assuming from or style sheet) and what font actually gets selected by the X server for display. Another example is I happen to like the font used for xterm. I don't use an .Xdefault setting for xterm. So if I wanted to use that font in gvim how would determine what font xterm is using? I don't really want to know how to do those specific things as much as know how to figure out how to do those things. ;) Thanks, -- Bill Moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Sat, Oct 18, 2003 at 07:43:40PM +0200, Osamu Aoki said > On Sat, Oct 18, 2003 at 06:56:10PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 08:09:56PM +0200, Osamu Aoki said > > > Since it is a small topic, if you wish, I will be grad to make it a part > > > of "Debian Reference". Rewite around: > > > > > > http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tune.en.html#s-xfs-tt > > > > > > I am not extensive on this subject. (Tough part is write is generic > > > enough so minor version up in X will not change description.) > > > > I don't think this will be too much of a problem. There don't seem to > > be any changes with regard to font configuration for X itself within the > > 4.0 series, there's just the addition of things like xft1 and > > fontconfig. > > Good. > > By the way, x-ttcidfont-conf depends on defoma. So all you need is > # apt-get install x-ttcidfont-conf Ah, indeed. I think I'll still mention defoma, though, since it's useful to know what packages you're actually using. > Also about nice set of free fonts > # apt-get install ttf-bitstream-vera I mentioned this in the original post. > or > # apt-get install ttf-freefont And added this later. > Just FYI to support CJK and other fonts: > > tfm-arphic-bsmi00lp, tfm-arphic-bkai00mp, tfm-arphic-gbsn00lp, > tfm-arphic-gkai00mp, hbf-jfs56, hbf-cns40-b5, hbf-kanji48, > ttf-baekmuk > ttf-thryomanes Added, thanks. > I do not exactly know how they fit together but I have them all and can > see all sorts of characters :-) > > For Japanese fonts, there is sticky problem right now. > http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2003/debian-legal-200310/msg00142.html Damn, that sucks. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: bank ISEC tempest dictionary Mantis Arnett overthorw signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Sat, Oct 18, 2003 at 06:56:10PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 08:09:56PM +0200, Osamu Aoki said > > Rob, > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:58:45AM -0700, M. Kirchhoff wrote: > > > Quoting Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > I've just spent a while expanding on my short guide that I've used on > > > > the list a couple of times. It's available from > > > > http://egads.ertius.org/~rob/font_guide.txt and is reproduced below so > > > > people can criticies it more easily :) > > > By jove, you've got it!!! I wish to hell I'd had your guide when I > > > first started mucking with fonts. I think we just need to get your > > > guide into docbook format or something similar and make it more well > > > known. > > > > How about DDP document which uses debiandoc-sgml. > > Sure, sounds like a good idea. I may not have time to do this until > next weekend, however. Cool. > > Since it is a small topic, if you wish, I will be grad to make it a part > > of "Debian Reference". Rewite around: > > > > http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tune.en.html#s-xfs-tt > > > > I am not extensive on this subject. (Tough part is write is generic > > enough so minor version up in X will not change description.) > > I don't think this will be too much of a problem. There don't seem to > be any changes with regard to font configuration for X itself within the > 4.0 series, there's just the addition of things like xft1 and > fontconfig. Good. By the way, x-ttcidfont-conf depends on defoma. So all you need is # apt-get install x-ttcidfont-conf Also about nice set of free fonts # apt-get install ttf-bitstream-vera or # apt-get install ttf-freefont Just FYI to support CJK and other fonts: tfm-arphic-bsmi00lp, tfm-arphic-bkai00mp, tfm-arphic-gbsn00lp, tfm-arphic-gkai00mp, hbf-jfs56, hbf-cns40-b5, hbf-kanji48, ttf-baekmuk ttf-thryomanes I do not exactly know how they fit together but I have them all and can see all sorts of characters :-) For Japanese fonts, there is sticky problem right now. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2003/debian-legal-200310/msg00142.html Osamu signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 08:09:56PM +0200, Osamu Aoki said > Rob, > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:58:45AM -0700, M. Kirchhoff wrote: > > Quoting Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > I've just spent a while expanding on my short guide that I've used on > > > the list a couple of times. It's available from > > > http://egads.ertius.org/~rob/font_guide.txt and is reproduced below so > > > people can criticies it more easily :) > > By jove, you've got it!!! I wish to hell I'd had your guide when I > > first started mucking with fonts. I think we just need to get your > > guide into docbook format or something similar and make it more well > > known. > > How about DDP document which uses debiandoc-sgml. Sure, sounds like a good idea. I may not have time to do this until next weekend, however. > Since it is a small topic, if you wish, I will be grad to make it a part > of "Debian Reference". Rewite around: > > http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tune.en.html#s-xfs-tt > > I am not extensive on this subject. (Tough part is write is generic > enough so minor version up in X will not change description.) I don't think this will be too much of a problem. There don't seem to be any changes with regard to font configuration for X itself within the 4.0 series, there's just the addition of things like xft1 and fontconfig. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: Clinton Serbian AUTODIN defense information warfare signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 04:33:15PM -0700, Ross Boylan said > Rob, thanks for making this available. I have one comment. > On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:33:09PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > 4) Add :unscaled to the end of the 100dpi and 75dpi font lines, so they > >look like this > > > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" > > > >Without the ":unscaled" bit, XFree86 will try to scale these bitmap > >fonts up and down, which usually looks rather horrible. > > > :unscaled is explicitly deprecated in newer versions of XFree86 (e.g., > 4.2.1 that I'm running). README.fonts.gz says > (The `:unscaled' hack, while still supported, > should no longer be necessary in XFree86 4.0 and later.) Thanks, I've applied this change. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day:Semtex Forte Steve Case EuroFed LLNL munitions signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
At Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:46:15 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 07:59:16AM +0800, csj said > > On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:27:14 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > > Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a > > > new font, it handles setting up symlinks and such so that > > > you can just point X at > > > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave > > > it alone. Without defoma, you'd have to point X at > > > wherever fonts installed themselves, and update the various > > > fonts.* files that live next to the fonts. > > > > I have two problems with such a setup: > > > > First is that the official xserver-xfree86 package appears > > not to be defoma- or at least x-ttcidfont-conf-aware. So I > > have to do a trick or two with my favorite editor after > > reconfiguring xserver-xfree86. (Actually the editor part is > > just cat font_path.txt >> XF86Config-4) Should this be filed > > as a wishlist bug? > > No, it will be handled by a different system. See bug #202096. > > > Second is that I have a program that for some reason doesn't > > recognize symlinks. > > Which symlinks? In > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType? X or your > fontserver looks in there, no user X program needs ever touch > them, they get all their font data from the X server. Real world case: scribus (probably the best GPL'ed or better DTP app). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
->>In response to your message<<- --received from Rob Weir-- > > > Determining which true type font package to install myself > > isn't so obvious. Looks like any package starting with ttf- are true > > type font packages. The only three that don't seem to be for another > > language are the non-free larabie packages. > > ttf-bitstream-vera is in sarge and sid and is quite Free. I even gave > the full URL to the .deb :) As well as msttcorefonts, which is an > installer package which downloads the MS corefonts and sets them up for > you. Yes, I appreciated and downloaded the ttf-bitstream-vera for my stable distribution while reading your guide. I held off on installing it until I was sure that that is what I wanted to do. I did check the contents of the package and was thrown off by the issue mentioned below, that the fonts didn't install into /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ which, at the time, didn't seem to get me anywhere. > > > Looking at the "list of > > files", these seem to unpack into /usr/X11R6/X11/fonts/TrueType/ and > > /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ instead of into > > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/. > > Yes, x-ttcidfont symlinks the fonts into > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/, they still get > installed somewhere else. Ok, I'll go ahead and install the ttf-bitstream-vera mentioned above and see where that gets me. Thanks! -- Paul Yeatman (858) 534-9896[EMAIL PROTECTED] == ==Proudly brought to you by Mutt== == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 07:59:16AM +0800, csj said > On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:27:14 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a new font, > > it handles setting up symlinks and such so that you can just point X > > at /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave it > > alone. Without defoma, you'd have to point X at wherever fonts > > installed themselves, and update the various fonts.* files that live > > next to the fonts. > > I have two problems with such a setup: > > First is that the official xserver-xfree86 package appears not to be > defoma- or at least x-ttcidfont-conf-aware. So I have to do a trick > or two with my favorite editor after reconfiguring xserver-xfree86. > (Actually the editor part is just cat font_path.txt >> XF86Config-4) > Should this be filed as a wishlist bug? No, it will be handled by a different system. See bug #202096. > Second is that I have a program that for some reason doesn't recognize > symlinks. Which symlinks? In /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType? X or your fontserver looks in there, no user X program needs ever touch them, they get all their font data from the X server. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day:Leuken-Baden Indigo assassination India Montenegro Hi, VeriSign! [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 03:07:52PM -0700, Paul Yeatman said > > > The debconf message for defoma told me to put > > > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as a FontPath in > > > XF86Config-4 but my /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfon t-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ > > > directory contains nothing but the file, fonts.dir, at the moment. > > > This doesn't seem correct. > > > > Have you installed any truetype font packages from Debian? > > Apparently not :) I wasn't even aware I needed to (this is the level > of font understanding I'm coming from :). If defoma uses true type > fonts, why doesn't it suggest/recommend any true type font packages to > install? Determining which true type font package to install myself > isn't so obvious. Looks like any package starting with ttf- are true > type font packages. The only three that don't seem to be for another > language are the non-free larabie packages. ttf-bitstream-vera is in sarge and sid and is quite Free. I even gave the full URL to the .deb :) As well as msttcorefonts, which is an installer package which downloads the MS corefonts and sets them up for you. > Looking at the "list of > files", these seem to unpack into /usr/X11R6/X11/fonts/TrueType/ and > /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ instead of into > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/. Yes, x-ttcidfont symlinks the fonts into /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/, they still get installed somewhere else. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: enemy of the state freedom NASA analyzer basement cybercash Hi, VeriSign! [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:27:14 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 07:47:50AM +0800, csj said [...] > > Your detailed tips have me wondering if there's really an > > official(tm) Debian way of managing fonts, something > > relatively easy like "dpkg-reconfigure". > > Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a new > font, it handles setting up symlinks and such so that you can > just point X at > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave it > alone. Without defoma, you'd have to point X at wherever fonts > installed themselves, and update the various fonts.* files that > live next to the fonts. I have two problems with such a setup: First is that the official xserver-xfree86 package appears not to be defoma- or at least x-ttcidfont-conf-aware. So I have to do a trick or two with my favorite editor after reconfiguring xserver-xfree86. (Actually the editor part is just cat font_path.txt >> XF86Config-4) Should this be filed as a wishlist bug? Second is that I have a program that for some reason doesn't recognize symlinks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
->>In response to your message<<- --received from Rob Weir-- > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 12:05:21PM -0700, Paul Yeatman said > > So, for the sake of clarification as some conflicting statements have > > been made, as long as the FontPath to > > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType is given in > > XF86Config-4, the order of the FontPaths doesn't matter, ie. even if > > the path to Type1 fonts is given first, X will put it last it? > > Er, I more meant that the default config that *new* installs of X > creates puts the Type1 line at the bottom. As far as I know, it will > still cause problems if it's not at the bottom. Got it, thanks! > > The debconf message for defoma told me to put > > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as a FontPath in > > XF86Config-4 but my /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfon t-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ > > directory contains nothing but the file, fonts.dir, at the moment. > > This doesn't seem correct. > > Have you installed any truetype font packages from Debian? Apparently not :) I wasn't even aware I needed to (this is the level of font understanding I'm coming from :). If defoma uses true type fonts, why doesn't it suggest/recommend any true type font packages to install? Determining which true type font package to install myself isn't so obvious. Looks like any package starting with ttf- are true type font packages. The only three that don't seem to be for another language are the non-free larabie packages. Looking at the "list of files", these seem to unpack into /usr/X11R6/X11/fonts/TrueType/ and /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ instead of into /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/. Thanks of all your other comments. -- Paul Yeatman (858) 534-9896[EMAIL PROTECTED] == ==Proudly brought to you by Mutt== == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 01:05:44PM -0700, Tom wrote: > I just did a clean reinstall of SID (I keep a local mirror and have it > scripted down to 30 minutes :-)). > > My /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/fonts.alias is > an empty file. > > Here's the the contents of that directory: > # ls /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ > fonts.aliasfonts.scale VeraIt.ttfVeraMoIt.ttf VeraSe.ttf > fonts.cache-1 VeraBd.ttf VeraMoBd.ttf VeraMono.ttf Vera.ttf > fonts.dir VeraBI.ttf VeraMoBI.ttf VeraSeBd.ttf > > I had been running mkfontalias.py which created "480 aliases". > I noticed I set GTK1 font to Vera-8 and fonts looked "different" > (bigger) in gbuffy. > > Why is fonts.alias empty? IMHO they looked better before. I figured out the mystery: mkfontalias.py CHEATS; defoma's empty fonts.alias is correct; however, mkfontalias.py is more DE-UGLIFIED. mkfontalias.py creates aliases of the form: "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--6-60-75-75-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--9-90-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--7-70-75-75-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--9-90-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--8-80-75-75-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--9-90-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--9-90-75-75-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--9-90-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-p-0-iso8859-1" "-bitstream-bitstream vera serif-medium-r-normal--10-100-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1" [snip similar] I.E., it specifically lies about font sizes 6,7,8. The end result is without it, Bitstream Vera Sans-8 looks awkward and ungainly in GTK1 apps; with it, it's more eye-pleasing. I learned about mkfontalias.py months back from the various literature; such as http://www.paulandlesley.org/linux/xfree4_tt.html; it seems to have disappeared off the web. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 12:05:21PM -0700, Paul Yeatman said > So, for the sake of clarification as some conflicting statements have > been made, as long as the FontPath to > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType is given in > XF86Config-4, the order of the FontPaths doesn't matter, ie. even if > the path to Type1 fonts is given first, X will put it last it? Er, I more meant that the default config that *new* installs of X creates puts the Type1 line at the bottom. As far as I know, it will still cause problems if it's not at the bottom. > Also, Rob's guide assumes that fontconfig is installed. As I use only > the stable distribution at the moment, defoma is installed but not > fontconfig. I'll update it to mention that you don't need to worry about fontconfig on stable, thanks. > The debconf message for defoma told me to put > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as a FontPath in > XF86Config-4 but my /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfon t-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ > directory contains nothing but the file, fonts.dir, at the moment. > This doesn't seem correct. Have you installed any truetype font packages from Debian? > Is this bunk until fontconfig is installed? No. If you don't use fontconfig, ignore it completely. It has no bearing on your other X fonts. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: domestic disruption computer terrorism credit card red noise Hi, VeriSign! [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
I just did a clean reinstall of SID (I keep a local mirror and have it scripted down to 30 minutes :-)). My /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/fonts.alias is an empty file. Here's the the contents of that directory: # ls /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ fonts.aliasfonts.scale VeraIt.ttfVeraMoIt.ttf VeraSe.ttf fonts.cache-1 VeraBd.ttf VeraMoBd.ttf VeraMono.ttf Vera.ttf fonts.dir VeraBI.ttf VeraMoBI.ttf VeraSeBd.ttf I had been running mkfontalias.py which created "480 aliases". I noticed I set GTK1 font to Vera-8 and fonts looked "different" (bigger) in gbuffy. Why is fonts.alias empty? IMHO they looked better before. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
->>In response to your message<<- --received from Rob Weir-- > > Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a new font, it > handles setting up symlinks and such so that you can just point X at > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave it alone. > Without defoma, you'd have to point X at wherever fonts installed > themselves, and update the various fonts.* files that live next to the > fonts. > > The only really neccessary step seems to be adding that one line to > XF86Config-4. fontconfig seems to come setup correctly out of the box, > X will put Type1 done the bottom all by itself, and the unscaled thing > doesn't seem to have any effect anymore. > So, for the sake of clarification as some conflicting statements have been made, as long as the FontPath to /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType is given in XF86Config-4, the order of the FontPaths doesn't matter, ie. even if the path to Type1 fonts is given first, X will put it last it? Also, Rob's guide assumes that fontconfig is installed. As I use only the stable distribution at the moment, defoma is installed but not fontconfig. The debconf message for defoma told me to put /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as a FontPath in XF86Config-4 but my /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfon t-conf.d/dirs/TrueType/ directory contains nothing but the file, fonts.dir, at the moment. This doesn't seem correct. Is this bunk until fontconfig is installed? -- Paul Yeatman (858) 534-9896[EMAIL PROTECTED] == ==Proudly brought to you by Mutt== == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Quoting Tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > For some apocryphal reason I think I need it for fluxbox to be pretty. > But I might need to rexamine my assumptions :-) > > Or perhaps I'm getting confused when I messed around with xterm's XFT > ability. Depends on what version of fluxbox you're using. Version 0.9.x supports Xft2 type fonts by default; however, the newest version in the Debian tree is 0.1.14x, under Sid... -M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 04:06:44AM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 10:39:29AM -0700, Tom said > > I've been patching my /etc/X11/Xftconfig as well as XF86Config-4 > > to manually point to /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera. > > Your suggestion says to only update XF86Config-4. Should I point > > XftConfig to /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as well? > > Yup. Do you have any Xft1-based apps left, though? It was only used > for a very short time, and I can't think of anything that still uses it. > > fontconfig, used by xft2, seems to come pre-configured to use defoma's > tt fonts. For some apocryphal reason I think I need it for fluxbox to be pretty. But I might need to rexamine my assumptions :-) Or perhaps I'm getting confused when I messed around with xterm's XFT ability. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Rob, On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:58:45AM -0700, M. Kirchhoff wrote: > Quoting Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > I've just spent a while expanding on my short guide that I've used on > > the list a couple of times. It's available from > > http://egads.ertius.org/~rob/font_guide.txt and is reproduced below so > > people can criticies it more easily :) > By jove, you've got it!!! I wish to hell I'd had your guide when I > first started mucking with fonts. I think we just need to get your > guide into docbook format or something similar and make it more well > known. How about DDP document which uses debiandoc-sgml. Since it is a small topic, if you wish, I will be grad to make it a part of "Debian Reference". Rewite around: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tune.en.html#s-xfs-tt I am not extensive on this subject. (Tough part is write is generic enough so minor version up in X will not change description.) Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 10:39:29AM -0700, Tom said > I've been patching my /etc/X11/Xftconfig as well as XF86Config-4 > to manually point to /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera. > Your suggestion says to only update XF86Config-4. Should I point > XftConfig to /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as well? Yup. Do you have any Xft1-based apps left, though? It was only used for a very short time, and I can't think of anything that still uses it. fontconfig, used by xft2, seems to come pre-configured to use defoma's tt fonts. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: red noise ASDIC ANDVT kibo virus Elvis FTS2000 cybercash Hi, VeriSign! [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 10:39:29AM -0700, Tom wrote: > On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 03:27:14AM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 07:47:50AM +0800, csj said > > > At Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:33:09 +1000, > > > Rob Weir wrote: > [snip] > I've been patching my /etc/X11/Xftconfig as well as XF86Config-4 > to manually point to /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera. > Your suggestion says to only update XF86Config-4. Should I point > XftConfig to /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as well? > I asked that question poorly: I meant, do you recommend pointing XftConfig as well as XF86Config-4 to x-ttcidfont-conf; not that the files should point to x-ttcidfont-conf as well as explicitly to ttf-bitstream-vera. I think the answer is "Yes." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 03:27:14AM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 07:47:50AM +0800, csj said > > At Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:33:09 +1000, > > Rob Weir wrote: [snip] > Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a new font, it > handles setting up symlinks and such so that you can just point X at > /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave it alone. > Without defoma, you'd have to point X at wherever fonts installed > themselves, and update the various fonts.* files that live next to the > fonts. Well, shut my mouth. I'd never grokked that about Defoma. That's cool. I've been patching my /etc/X11/Xftconfig as well as XF86Config-4 to manually point to /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera. Your suggestion says to only update XF86Config-4. Should I point XftConfig to /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType as well? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 07:47:50AM +0800, csj said > At Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:33:09 +1000, > Rob Weir wrote: > > > > [...] > > > For GNOME2 and KDE3, you need to setup "fontconfig" which Xft2 > > uses to find fonts. I'll get to that in a minute. > > I didn't have to do anything to get my fonts available to GNOME2 > and KDE3. I've always been puzzled tho why my GTK1 apps seems to > have fewer fonts available. > > Your detailed tips have me wondering if there's really an > official(tm) Debian way of managing fonts, something relatively > easy like "dpkg-reconfigure". Yes, defoma aka "Debian Font Manager". When you install a new font, it handles setting up symlinks and such so that you can just point X at /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType, and leave it alone. Without defoma, you'd have to point X at wherever fonts installed themselves, and update the various fonts.* files that live next to the fonts. The only really neccessary step seems to be adding that one line to XF86Config-4. fontconfig seems to come setup correctly out of the box, X will put Type1 done the bottom all by itself, and the unscaled thing doesn't seem to have any effect anymore. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day:Albanian Subversion Australia constitution IMF freedom Hi, VeriSign! [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
At Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:33:09 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > [...] > For GNOME2 and KDE3, you need to setup "fontconfig" which Xft2 > uses to find fonts. I'll get to that in a minute. I didn't have to do anything to get my fonts available to GNOME2 and KDE3. I've always been puzzled tho why my GTK1 apps seems to have fewer fonts available. Your detailed tips have me wondering if there's really an official(tm) Debian way of managing fonts, something relatively easy like "dpkg-reconfigure". [...] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Quoting Ross Boylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Rob, thanks for making this available. I have one comment. > On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:33:09PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > 4) Add :unscaled to the end of the 100dpi and 75dpi font lines, so they > >look like this > > > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" > > > >Without the ":unscaled" bit, XFree86 will try to scale these bitmap > >fonts up and down, which usually looks rather horrible. > > > :unscaled is explicitly deprecated in newer versions of XFree86 (e.g., > 4.2.1 that I'm running). README.fonts.gz says > (The `:unscaled' hack, while still supported, > should no longer be necessary in XFree86 4.0 and later.) Amazing! I did not know that, and I'm sure most users weren't aware of that either. Just goes to show you the importance of keeping howtos up-to-date (or reading TFM, but people are more apt to read howtos, methinks, than boring readmes). -M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Rob, thanks for making this available. I have one comment. On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:33:09PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > 4) Add :unscaled to the end of the 100dpi and 75dpi font lines, so they >look like this > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" > >Without the ":unscaled" bit, XFree86 will try to scale these bitmap >fonts up and down, which usually looks rather horrible. > :unscaled is explicitly deprecated in newer versions of XFree86 (e.g., 4.2.1 that I'm running). README.fonts.gz says (The `:unscaled' hack, while still supported, should no longer be necessary in XFree86 4.0 and later.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 10:30:26AM -0700, Paul Yeatman said > Two questions though from someone with no fonts understanding. It > seems assumed that: > > FontPath "unix/:7100"# local font server XFree86 4 can read TrueType fonts all by itself, so there's no need to use a font server unless you're sharing fonts around your network. > Also, one of the debconf messages told me to put: > > FontPath"/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/CID" > > along with the TrueType path you mentioned in your guide. Again > it seems assumed this is either undesired or needless? That directory contains no fonts at all for me. It would do no harm to have it listed as a FontPath, but it would do no good, either. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: MD5 VX NSA SDI Centro codes MP5K-SD Pine Gap Hi, VeriSign! [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Rob Weir, great guide, thanks! Two questions though from someone with no fonts understanding. It seems assumed that: FontPath "unix/:7100"# local font server is right out? (I think someone in this thread mentioned a font server not being necessary for "most users") Also, one of the debconf messages told me to put: FontPath"/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/CID" along with the TrueType path you mentioned in your guide. Again it seems assumed this is either undesired or needless? Paul ->>In response to your message<<- --received from Rob Weir-- > > > > A very short guide to setting up fonts for X in Debian. It assumes > XFree86 4.1 or more recent, and explains how to setup fontconfig and > Xft1. > > 1) Install x-ttcidfont-conf and defoma > 2) Add a line like this to /etc/X11/XF86Config-4, in the "Files" section > > FontPath"/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" > >Adding it at the top of the list is probably a good idea. This line >will setup XFree86 to use any TrueType fonts you install from Debian >packages. If you install a new set of TrueType fonts while in X, run >"xset fp rehash" to get XFree86 to look at the contents of that >directory again and to pickup new ones. > > 3) Move this line to the bottom of the list of FontPaths > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Type1" > >XFree86 does a rather poor job of rendering Type1 fonts these days, >and if this is above your better looking fonts, you can get a some >pretty ugly results. > > 4) Add :unscaled to the end of the 100dpi and 75dpi font lines, so they >look like this > > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" > >Without the ":unscaled" bit, XFree86 will try to scale these bitmap >fonts up and down, which usually looks rather horrible. > > And, after all that, my Files section looks like this: > > Section "Files" > FontPath"/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" > FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/CID" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" > FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Type1" > EndSection > > Now that it's all setup, install some font packages. ttf-bitstream-vera > is a rather nice set of fonts, and is Free enough to go into Debian > itself. It's not in woody yet, but you can download the .deb from > http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/t/ttf-bitstream-vera/ttf-bitstream-vera_1.10-3_all.deb > (or your local mirror) and install it with "dpkg -i > ttf-bitstream-vera_1.10-3_all.deb" (as root). sid and sarge users are > just an "apt-get install ttf-bitstream-vera" away from it. Another > option is ttf-freefont, which is in all three current versions of > Debian. > > Another alternative is to install Microsoft's Corefonts. They removed > the the fonts from their website, but the msttcorefonts package will > download them for you from a mirror. Note that these are NOT Free (in > the Debian sense), but you're permitted to at least use and download > them. > > Both of these packages (and the other ttf-* packages in Debian) should > now Just Work, and appear available to all X programs that use the > regular "core" font system. This includes things like xterm, emacs and > most other non-KDE and non-GNOME applications. > > Now, run "xfontsel" and select either "Microsoft" or "Bitstream" in the > fndry menu (click on the word "fndry"). Now look at the ungrayed out > entries in the "fmly" menu. You should have a bunch of either Microsoft > fonts (Verdana, Trebuchet, etc) or some Bitstream ones (or both). > > For KDE2.2 and GNOME1.4 (with libgdkxft0, which is a hack to get GTK > 1.2 to do anti-aliased font rendering), you need to setup Xft1, as > well. Xft1 is highly deprecated, and is basically only used by > GNOME1.4 and KDE2.2. For GNOME2 and KDE3, you need to setup > "fontconfig" which Xft2 uses to find fonts. I'll get to that in a > minute. > > Edit /etc/X11/XftConfig and add a line like > > dir "/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" > > before the other dir lines. I don't have any xft1 stuff on my machine > anymore, so I'm not sure if you need to restart X or not before this > change will take effect. I seem to remember that "xftcache" would > update the Xft1 cache, but it'd be good if someone could confirm that > for me. > > Now, for fontconfig. You shouldn't need to install anything extra for > this, since all the packages using fontconfig will D
RE: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
> -Original Message- > From: M. Kirchhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:20 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused > > > Quoting Ross Boylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Personally, I think restricting the focus to stable, or just certain > > aspects of it, is a bit limiting, but it's your call. > > I'm the rare breed that actually runs Stable on my > production, every-day-use > desktop. I'm not a programmer, and I do very little hacking. > I enjoy the peace > of mind running a nearly crash-proof system gives me. I > don't run Gnome or KDE; > just Fluxbox from Stable. I haven't read your guide yet; however, I run stable with just a windowmanager also (blackbox is my preference), and I consider myself to be a newbie. Just so you know that there are other newbies out here who don't use the desktop managers. ;) fwiw, mw -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
[erk, to the list now] On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 08:25:30PM -0700, M. Kirchhoff said > While looking through the deb-user archives for some font-related info, I > discovered that there is still an insane amount of confusion regarding fonts > under XFree86. Googling, which new users tend to rely on, results in myriad yet > often contracting font guides. > > The two biggies--The Font De-Uglification HowTo and the Font Howto--are outdated > and hopelessly outdated, respectively. They both contain a wealth of important > info, but, alas, that info is likely to send new users down a very dark tunnel > of inexorable agitation. I know, I was one of them. Yup, I agree. I've answered a few font questions on this list, and I had a little pre-canned reply, which I've expanded. It's available from http://egads.ertius.org/~rob/font_guide.txt, and I pasted it below so everyone can criticize it constructively :) A very short guide to setting up fonts for X in Debian. It assumes XFree86 4.1 or more recent, and explains how to setup fontconfig and Xft1. 1) Install x-ttcidfont-conf and defoma 2) Add a line like this to /etc/X11/XF86Config-4, in the "Files" section FontPath"/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" Adding it at the top of the list is probably a good idea. This line will setup XFree86 to use any TrueType fonts you install from Debian packages. If you install a new set of TrueType fonts while in X, run "xset fp rehash" to get XFree86 to look at the contents of that directory again and to pickup new ones. 3) Move this line to the bottom of the list of FontPaths FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Type1" XFree86 does a rather poor job of rendering Type1 fonts these days, and if this is above your better looking fonts, you can get a some pretty ugly results. 4) Add :unscaled to the end of the 100dpi and 75dpi font lines, so they look like this FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" Without the ":unscaled" bit, XFree86 will try to scale these bitmap fonts up and down, which usually looks rather horrible. And, after all that, my Files section looks like this: Section "Files" FontPath"/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" FontPath"/usr/share/fonts/truetype" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/CID" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi:unscaled" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi:unscaled" FontPath"/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Type1" EndSection Now that it's all setup, install some font packages. ttf-bitstream-vera is a rather nice set of fonts, and is Free enough to go into Debian itself. It's not in woody yet, but you can download the .deb from http://http.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/t/ttf-bitstream-vera/ttf-bitstream-vera_1.10-3_all.deb (or your local mirror) and install it with "dpkg -i ttf-bitstream-vera_1.10-3_all.deb" (as root). sid and sarge users are just an "apt-get install ttf-bitstream-vera" away from it. Another option is ttf-freefont, which is in all three current versions of Debian. Another alternative is to install Microsoft's Corefonts. They removed the the fonts from their website, but the msttcorefonts package will download them for you from a mirror. Note that these are NOT Free (in the Debian sense), but you're permitted to at least use and download them. Both of these packages (and the other ttf-* packages in Debian) should now Just Work, and appear available to all X programs that use the regular "core" font system. This includes things like xterm, emacs and most other non-KDE and non-GNOME applications. Now, run "xfontsel" and select either "Microsoft" or "Bitstream" in the fndry menu (click on the word "fndry"). Now look at the ungrayed out entries in the "fmly" menu. You should have a bunch of either Microsoft fonts (Verdana, Trebuchet, etc) or some Bitstream ones (or both). For KDE2.2 and GNOME1.4 (with libgdkxft0, which is a hack to get GTK 1.2 to do anti-aliased font rendering), you need to setup Xft1, as well. Xft1 is highly deprecated, and is basically only used by GNOME1.4 and KDE2.2. For GNOME2 and KDE3, you need to setup "fontconfig" which Xft2 uses to find fonts. I'll get to that in a minute. Edit /etc/X11/XftConfig and add a line like dir "/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" before the other dir lines. I don't have any xft1 stuff on my machine anymore, so I'm not sure if you need to restart X or not before this change will take effect. I seem to remember that "xftcache" would update the Xft1 cache, but it'd be good if someone could confirm that for me. Now,
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Quoting Ross Boylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Personally, I think restricting the focus to stable, or just certain > aspects of it, is a bit limiting, but it's your call. I'm the rare breed that actually runs Stable on my production, every-day-use desktop. I'm not a programmer, and I do very little hacking. I enjoy the peace of mind running a nearly crash-proof system gives me. I don't run Gnome or KDE; just Fluxbox from Stable. Perhaps my guide would be too limited for most users, since newbies tend to prefer the more complete environments that Gnome/KDE provide. Alas, Rob Weir seems to have beaten me to the punch (see his reply to my original message). I think some fleshing out and formatting of his guide would be perfect for new users. -M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
Quoting Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I've just spent a while expanding on my short guide that I've used on > the list a couple of times. It's available from > http://egads.ertius.org/~rob/font_guide.txt and is reproduced below so > people can criticies it more easily :) By jove, you've got it!!! I wish to hell I'd had your guide when I first started mucking with fonts. I think we just need to get your guide into docbook format or something similar and make it more well known. -M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 07:34:05PM +1300, Paul William wrote: > > > (4) requires a working (1) and moreover requires modifying > > /etc/X11/XftConfig; in particular enabling anti-aliasing (match edit > > rgba = rgb) and pointing to TrueType (dir "..path..to..bitstream-vera"). > > (4) is representive of all Xft v1 apps. (4) also takes care of old GTK1 > > apps. > > I am struggling to get GTK1 apps going (gnucash, gabber ...) > > extract from /etc/X11/XftConfig [looks like mine] > match edit rgba=rgb > > > #end of config > That XftConfig looks like mine. Like I said, it is my "belief" that you have to get the fonts working in plain X FIRST, and then do a bit more in XftConfig. #ls /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera/ Vera.ttfVeraIt.ttfVeraMoIt.ttf VeraSeBd.ttf fonts.dir VeraBI.ttf VeraMoBI.ttf VeraMono.ttf fonts.aliasfonts.scale VeraBd.ttf VeraMoBd.ttf VeraSe.ttffonts.cache-1 --> To get this, cd to ttf-bitstream-vera and run: #ttmkfdir -o fonts.scale #cp fonts.scale fonts.dir #python mkfontalias.py -->Make sure you have a fontpath to ttf-bitstream-vera in XF86Config-4 -->Use xfontsel to make sure you see the Vera fonts OK. -->Your XftConfig looks okay to me. Hope I didn't forget anything. -->I use gtk-theme-switch to get GTK1 apps to use Vera-8 for everything Good luck! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 20:25, M. Kirchhoff wrote: > While looking through the deb-user archives for some font-related info, I > discovered that there is still an insane amount of confusion regarding fonts > under XFree86. Googling, which new users tend to rely on, results in myriad yet > often contracting font guides. > > The two biggies--The Font De-Uglification HowTo and the Font Howto--are outdated > and hopelessly outdated, respectively. They both contain a wealth of important > info, but, alas, that info is likely to send new users down a very dark tunnel > of inexorable agitation. I know, I was one of them. > > Another problem with these guides is their breadth--they cover too wide a set of > topics, and they are not Debian specific. The closest--and still the > best--guide is Paul D. Smith's TrueType fonts guide, but that covers TT fonts only. > > Ugly fonts bothered me immensely when I first made the switch from Windows to > GNU/Linux, and I know how frustrating trying to pull bits of (mostly outdated) > information from various howtos can be. > > So, I plan to create a guide for a very specific group of people: those new to > both Linux and Debian--or those who simply want a consise, pithy guide to > getting pretty fonts in Debian. > > This guide will cover *only* stand-alone workstations. As of Xfree 4.x, it is > absolutely unnecessary to run a font server if serving fonts isn't a requisite, > i.e. most users. It will also cover on Woody stable. There will be no > information on configuring fonts for specific applications (not yet, anyway), > but simply for X. > > So, I'd like peoples' thoughts on this. Is it necessary? Should I change the > focus, etc. etc. Personally, I feel there needs to be a down-and-dirty guide to > fonts to complement the great general information on fonts in the aforementioned > guides; something to get new users going without them having to become experts > on fontography. > I'm not expert, but I say go for it. At the very least, up date some of the information. I think the best thing would be a step-by-step guide to getting it all done. What to edit in XF86Config. Where to get fonts. Where to put them. etc. etc. But, under debian, you could just build a package that does it all for you... By the way, have you looked at the anti-aliasing-howto in stable? It appears to be gone in unstable now... Good luck. > Let me know what you think. > > Sincerely, > M. Kirchhoff > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
> (4) requires a working (1) and moreover requires modifying > /etc/X11/XftConfig; in particular enabling anti-aliasing (match edit > rgba = rgb) and pointing to TrueType (dir "..path..to..bitstream-vera"). > (4) is representive of all Xft v1 apps. (4) also takes care of old GTK1 > apps. I am struggling to get GTK1 apps going (gnucash, gabber ...) extract from /etc/X11/XftConfig dir "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1" dir "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TrueType" dir "/usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera" dir "/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType" dir "/usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera" ... match edit rgba=rgb #end of config I have run the following command: export GDK_USE_XFT=1 I have the right modules in my XF86Config-4 What am I doing wrong? Thanks Paul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 08:53:22PM -0700, M. Kirchhoff wrote: > As an addition, note that this guide will cover only the X core font system. > AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong), fontconfig is not available under Stable, > which rules out a discussion of Xft at this time... > > I'm pledging to keep the guide up-to-date, so at some point it will cover the > transition from the core system to the Xft rendering system... > > -M. > > A font guide for Debian would be very useful; there seem to be few if any people who think they have a real handle on what's going on, at least in its entirety. I posted some discoveries I made to debian-user and debian-kde about a couple of months ago, and there was some good discussion in those threads. Personally, I think restricting the focus to stable, or just certain aspects of it, is a bit limiting, but it's your call. My impression is that a lot of the confusion comes from the sheer number of different mechanisms, so you need to discuss all of them to really orient people. Font handling is also a fairly rapidly changing target, and today's testing is tomorrow's stable (well, maybe next year's!). The owner of fontconfig has provided some additional clarification/explanation of the relation between some of the font handling mechanisms in Debian in the latest package; I haven't seen it yet, but it's likely illuminating (it was in response to a request of mine to say more about the relation between fontconfig, defoma, XFree, and other font options). I also encourage you to feed what you find to the authors of the other, non-Debian, FAQs. Thanks for taking this on. P.S. I get the feeling that's not a real email address in your return, but I'll try it anyway. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:25:30 -0700 "M. Kirchhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While looking through the deb-user archives for some font-related info, I > discovered that there is still an insane amount of confusion regarding fonts > under XFree86. Googling, which new users tend to rely on, results in myriad yet > often contracting font guides. > > The two biggies--The Font De-Uglification HowTo and the Font Howto--are outdated > and hopelessly outdated, respectively. They both contain a wealth of important > info, but, alas, that info is likely to send new users down a very dark tunnel > of inexorable agitation. I know, I was one of them. > > Another problem with these guides is their breadth--they cover too wide a set of > topics, and they are not Debian specific. The closest--and still the > best--guide is Paul D. Smith's TrueType fonts guide, but that covers TT fonts only. > > Ugly fonts bothered me immensely when I first made the switch from Windows to > GNU/Linux, and I know how frustrating trying to pull bits of (mostly outdated) > information from various howtos can be. > > So, I plan to create a guide for a very specific group of people: those new to > both Linux and Debian--or those who simply want a consise, pithy guide to > getting pretty fonts in Debian. > > This guide will cover *only* stand-alone workstations. As of Xfree 4.x, it is > absolutely unnecessary to run a font server if serving fonts isn't a requisite, > i.e. most users. It will also cover on Woody stable. There will be no > information on configuring fonts for specific applications (not yet, anyway), > but simply for X. > > So, I'd like peoples' thoughts on this. Is it necessary? Should I change the > focus, etc. etc. Personally, I feel there needs to be a down-and-dirty guide to > fonts to complement the great general information on fonts in the aforementioned > guides; something to get new users going without them having to become experts > on fontography. > > Let me know what you think. > > Sincerely, > M. Kirchhoff > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yep, I don't need it yet, but I definitely will in the future. I'm just not that advanced yet. I'm an extremely ugly font. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 08:25:30PM -0700, M. Kirchhoff wrote: > > This guide will cover *only* stand-alone workstations. As of Xfree 4.x, it is > absolutely unnecessary to run a font server if serving fonts isn't a requisite, > i.e. most users. It will also cover on Woody stable. There will be no > information on configuring fonts for specific applications (not yet, anyway), > but simply for X. > > So, I'd like peoples' thoughts on this. Is it necessary? Should I change the > focus, etc. etc. Personally, I feel there needs to be a down-and-dirty guide to > fonts to complement the great general information on fonts in the aforementioned > guides; something to get new users going without them having to become experts > on fontography. > I know you *only* want to do X, but I believe that does not address users "itch". Plain X without Xft only gets so pretty. Read on: My journey from font-ugliness to today contained the following waypoints: 1. Figuring out how to make TWM and XFONTSEL happy. 2. Figuring out how to make POSTSCRIPT happy. 3. Figuring out how to make MOZILLA, GNOME, and KDE happy. 4. Figuring out how to make FLUXBOX happy. 5. Figuring out how to make OPENOFFICE happy. (2) just happens. (1) required understanding 75 and 100 dpi bitmap fonts. Type1 support just happens. TrueType for (1) requires ttmkfdir, fonts.scale, mkfontalias.py and is a prerequisite for (4). However, Type1 and TT don't look good in (1); only bitmapped fonts *REALLY* matter there. (4) requires a working (1) and moreover requires modifying /etc/X11/XftConfig; in particular enabling anti-aliasing (match edit rgba = rgb) and pointing to TrueType (dir "..path..to..bitstream-vera"). (4) is representive of all Xft v1 apps. (4) also takes care of old GTK1 apps. (3) is easier now, during pkg-configuration all the requisite questions are asked and /etc/fonts is appropriately generated. MOZILLA requires custom building but a fully beautified GNOME. At this point, I will not be using any Microsoft fonts at all. Bitstream Vera family will make suitably beautiful Fluxbox, Gnome, KDE, and Mozilla. The standard Type1 fonts look good for Postscript. So I do not "register" the Microsoft fonts with X or fontconfig at all. I use oopadmin to register the Microsoft fonts for (5) so Docs act right. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Debian Font Guide for Newbies and the Confused
As an addition, note that this guide will cover only the X core font system. AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong), fontconfig is not available under Stable, which rules out a discussion of Xft at this time... I'm pledging to keep the guide up-to-date, so at some point it will cover the transition from the core system to the Xft rendering system... -M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
