Re: Please take this as constructive
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 4:06 AM Anssi Saari wrote: > Stefan Monnier writes: > > Here's another way to attack those chicken/egg problems: > > Interesting approach. When I recently installed Debian on a newish > computer I needed some firmware packages and a newer kernel too from > debian-backports. I was able to use my phone connected to USB enough to > complete installation and then install what I needed from > debian-backports and then get online with built in ethernet. > > After that I have bought some cheap Linux-compatible USB ethernet and > USB wifi adapters, just in case. > > My approach to these problems is to sidestep them entirely: (1) Create an installable USB key on an existing connected machine (2) Install it on a new machine Step 1 is much faster if that connected machine is NOT on wifi, but cabled to your router instead. You can even do Step 1 on a Win machine, Debian doc tells you how. And you can even increase your wifi throughput on the newly-installed machine by just disabling the wifi port and plugging that network cable directly into the router all the time. Wifi issues gone :-) the
Re: Please take this as constructive
On Ma, 18 ian 22, 22:06:33, The Wanderer wrote: > > Unless you mean "e.g., using a wired connection"? It's not clear that > that's an available option in this case, either, although there are > probably a lot of cases where it will be. (I've had the misfortune > recently, in my workplace, of having to image and set up a lot of > laptops which don't come with a wired Ethernet adapter, and most > recently with ones that don't come with an external USB-or-similar > wired-Ethernet adapter dongle either.) Dongles might require firmware as well :( Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Please take this as constructive
Stefan Monnier writes: > Here's another way to attack those chicken/egg problems: Interesting approach. When I recently installed Debian on a newish computer I needed some firmware packages and a newer kernel too from debian-backports. I was able to use my phone connected to USB enough to complete installation and then install what I needed from debian-backports and then get online with built in ethernet. After that I have bought some cheap Linux-compatible USB ethernet and USB wifi adapters, just in case.
Re: Please take this as constructive
On 2022-01-18 at 12:48, Brian wrote: > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 11:50:14 -0500, Celejar wrote: > >> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:47:09 + Brian >> wrote: >>> Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat. >> >> How is netcat going to help if there's no networking on one >> machine? And if there is (e.g., using a wired connection), then >> netcat isn't really necessary, since the machine connected to the >> internet can be configured to route packets to the other one. > > Rhetorical? netcat is obviously dependent on a working network. Yes, so since the entire problem is that one of the machines involved doesn't have a working network, how does netcat help? > Thank you for the second solution to avoiding sneakernet. I'm confused. What are you talking about? I don't see any alternative suggested above, beyond what obviously isn't applicable because it assumes having a network connection, which as indicated isn't the case. Unless you mean "e.g., using a wired connection"? It's not clear that that's an available option in this case, either, although there are probably a lot of cases where it will be. (I've had the misfortune recently, in my workplace, of having to image and set up a lot of laptops which don't come with a wired Ethernet adapter, and most recently with ones that don't come with an external USB-or-similar wired-Ethernet adapter dongle either.) -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Please take this as constructive
On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 11:50:14 -0500, Celejar wrote: > On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:47:09 + > Brian wrote: > > > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 14:30:45 +0100, Loïc Grenié wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote: > > > > > > > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution > > > > is > > > > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that > > > > apt'ing > > > > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install > > > > if > > > > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions > > ... > > > > I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants > > > thereof, > > > and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with > > > network access and use sneakernet between the two computers. > > > I've always wondered how to do it better. > > > > Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat. > > How is netcat going to help if there's no networking on one machine? > And if there is (e.g., using a wired connection), then netcat isn't > really necessary, since the machine connected to the internet can be > configured to route packets to the other one. Rhetorical? netcat is obviously dependent on a working network. Thank you for the second solution to avoiding sneakernet. -- Brian.
Re: Please take this as constructive
On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:47:09 + Brian wrote: > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 14:30:45 +0100, Loïc Grenié wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote: > > > > > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is > > > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that > > > apt'ing > > > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install if > > > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions ... > > I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof, > > and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with > > network access and use sneakernet between the two computers. > > I've always wondered how to do it better. > > Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat. How is netcat going to help if there's no networking on one machine? And if there is (e.g., using a wired connection), then netcat isn't really necessary, since the machine connected to the internet can be configured to route packets to the other one. Celejar
Re: Please take this as constructive
On 2022-01-18 01:47, R. Toby Richards wrote: > > > > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution > is to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that > apt'ing anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install drivers> if I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses > to questions about network drivers that say to apt-get install various > packages without any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without > first having network drivers. It's seriously starting to me off. > I've got computers with Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix > that by using networking to download the gosh darn drivers to fix the > networking that I don't have? Of the dozens of "solutions" that I've > read about this, NOBODY ever thinks about how to fix the network driver > without having a network driver. > > Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was > dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone > call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got > to the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of > punch-cards that were data for the mainframe. > > When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I > get errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and > start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the > debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg > because dpkg doesn't function. > Because you don't install package by using dpkg on the installer cd. Install your system with missing firmware then use dpkg. What you can do is to get the firmware on a machine with Internet access and then copy them to a USB key, insert the USB key when prompted by the installer and it will use the .bw file needed. This is how to feed binary firmware to the installer. You don't install package inside the shell of the installer before installing the base system on your hard drive. This is in addition to my last message because seems like I got it late... You are trying to run dpkg from the installer shell. For sure it will fail, there's no services management in the proper sense and even if it would work, all you done would be lost. (Someone else please give better explanation than I do because I'm a bit lost trying to explain this in a two sentence where there's so much to explain and give a complete class on "this is not how things work" and the install process). You can also learn how to build your full system using another computer connected on Internet and using chroot + deb-bootstrap). Read the documentation on deb-bootstrap and you'll better understand the install process. > The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't > get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because > dpkg doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and > dependencies of dependencies and so forth). > > Now what? > Now you'll learn how the install system work, the question of binary blob distribution right (exclusive) and be a better system manager... All by solving your Broadcom card problem. PS: Buy a directly supported card. > -- > > _R. Toby Richards_ > > > -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Please take this as constructive
On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 14:30:45 +0100, Loïc Grenié wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote: > > > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is > > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing > > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install if > > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions > > about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without > > any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network > > drivers. It's seriously starting to me off. I've got computers with > > Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to > > download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of > > the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks > > about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver. > > > > Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was > > dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone > > call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to > > the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of > > punch-cards that were data for the mainframe. > > > > I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof, > and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with > network access and use sneakernet between the two computers. > I've always wondered how to do it better. Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat. -- Brian.
Re: Please take this as constructive
Hi,
On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install if
> I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
> any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
> drivers. It's seriously starting to me off. I've got computers with
> Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
> download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
> the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
> about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.
>
> Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
> dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
> call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to
> the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
> punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.
>
I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof,
and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with
network access and use sneakernet between the two computers.
I've always wondered how to do it better.
> When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I get
> errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and
> start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the
> debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg
> because dpkg doesn't function.
>
dpkg is a dependency of apt (through apt depends on adduser which
depends on
{c,}debconf which depends on dpkg). If you do not fix dpkg, you will
probably not
be able to install anything. To do that you will probably need to boot
on a live
system and install the missing packages (non-trivial task). FYI, the
dependencies
I get for dpkg are:
dpkg
gcc-11-base
libacl1
libbz2-1.0
libc6
libgcc-s1
liblzma5
libpcre2-8-0
libselinux1
tar
zlib1g
> The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
> get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg
> doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of
> dependencies and so forth).
>
> Now what?
>
Hope you can solve your problems,
Loïc
Re: Please take this as constructive
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 10:47:55PM -0800, R. Toby Richards wrote: > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install if > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions > about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without > any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network > drivers. It's seriously starting to me off. I've got computers with > Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to > download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of > the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks > about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver. > A couple of things: Which machine is this? Which model of Broadcom card is this? lspci might tell you. Do you have any other means of connecting this machine? You may have hit a Catch 22 not of our making. There are a wide variety of Broadcom chipsets. Broadcom have been approached about this in the past, I think. As someone with a Broadcom card, you have the right to download the drivers: nobody else has the right to distribute them to you. The Broadcom B43 driver is, effectively, a firmware cutter - chopping the needed binary bits out of the Windows drivers. https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/firmware-b43-installer This then links with firmware-linux-free to provide the bits you need. Be thankful that you're not running Fedora - despite being more liberal on many firmware policies, they don't supply utilities to do this. We do think about doing things with no network driver for wifi. My standard suggestion is to use the non-free unofficial network installer iso - but it can't include the Broadcom drivers, as you've seen. If you can use a wired network, that solves the install problem and allows you to download the installer package. If you have a wired network available but no connector on your laptop, you can use a USB-Ethernet connector if you have one. If you can pair a phone via Bluetooth, you might be able to download the needed .debs that way. Missing firmware is an issue that now hits not just for WiFi but also now often for graphics drivers and even audio firmware. There has been talk about framing a new GR [General resolution] on firmware in the installer, since this is rendering Debian uninstallable on certain classes of hardware. In this particular instance, that wouldn't help you. The glib, self-satisfied answer is "Friends don't let friends use Broadcom - check the device drivers needed before you buy" and many of us have avoided the issue by doing that - but you've hit the (known) corner case, I think. With every good wish, as ever, Andy Cater > > The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't > get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg > doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of > dependencies and so forth). > > Now what? > > -- > > *R. Toby Richards*
Re: Please take this as constructive
On 2022-01-18 at 01:47, R. Toby Richards wrote: > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the > solution is to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody > realize that apt'ing anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get > install if I don't have network drivers? There are > DOZENS of responses to questions about network drivers that say to > apt-get install various packages without any thought to the fact that > nobody can apt without first having network drivers. apt-get can install things from a local source (whether CD/DVD or otherwise), if configured appropriately, so even without networking it may not be a useless recommendation. Also, in some cases people will have e.g. wired network drivers but not wireless ones, so making use of the network access provided by the former to install the latter - to be able to have network access when away from the network cable - can be a viable option. > It's seriously starting to me off. I've got computers with > Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using > networking to download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking > that I don't have? Of the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about > this, NOBODY ever thinks about how to fix the network driver without > having a network driver. The usual solution (aside from reinstalling with firmware present, etc., as you've addressed to some degree separately) would indeed be... > Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email > was dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free > telephone call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from > California got to the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge > spools of punch-cards that were data for the mainframe. ...this. > When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I > get errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and > start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for > the debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix > dpkg because dpkg doesn't function. That sounds like a completely different problem, and probably a far more severe one, which would need to be investigated on its own, and which might well warrant a full reinstall to fix. I would recommend starting with trying to troubleshoot and fix *this* problem, before you worry too much about the other one. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Please take this as constructive
On 1/18/2022 7:47 AM, R. Toby Richards wrote: Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install if I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network drivers. It's seriously starting to me off. I've got computers with Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver. Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of punch-cards that were data for the mainframe. When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I get errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg because dpkg doesn't function. The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of dependencies and so forth). Now what? Simply get the driver and give it to the installer or use firmware*.iso. -- John Doe
