Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 08 December 2018 21:10:13 John Hasler wrote:

> If you want to move on from REXX look at Tcl.

Linuxcnc uses a bunch of that in its gui's, which it has several flavors 
of,



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2018, at 01:47, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 08 December 2018 17:53:01 Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
> [...]
> > The pid was there so that when writing and testing the script
> > I could tell which was which in taskmanager, which saw them
> > all as the same thing - an instance of the script language's
> > interpreter being run.
> >
> I can see where that could, if you "got your head" around it, be pretty 
> handy. But half or more of my gcode mistakes are typu's. And the rs274D 
> interpretor is very VERY good at recommending you learn to type. ;-)

In the music typesetting thing, one of the BIG problems was that a
sequence of things done via its GUI (obviously) changed the file, but
apart from my errors, bugs in the software meant that a session 
reloaded from a previously-saved file didn't always behave as the 
edit session where one had made the changes behaved.

I haven't used it for a while but I'm sorely tempted to learn how to use
another system [Philip Hazel (of Exim & PCRE)'s PMW], where plain text
files are interpreted to create PostScript scores.   I think that the non-
GUI approach suits me better.


> > The script is written in ooREXX

> Back when we did most of our scripting on amiga's, ARexx was the language 
> to top all the rest...

Most of my REXX was written on MVS (now z/OS) systems and was what's 
commonly called 'Classic REXX', somewhat predating even ANSI REXX.  On
a PC, I use ooREXX but nearly none of its oo capabilities - one can write 
code that's very similar to Classic non-oo REXX.

> Computers are to reduce one's work, not multiply  it times 15. Call me 
> lazy, but it "works for me"..

I'm no longer wholly enthusiastic about learning completely new things
(because of chronic illness) but I keep meaning to try to get to grips with 
Linux... which is why I lurk here.   If and when I do, I expect to keep using 
ooREXX.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

If you want to move on from REXX look at Tcl.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 08 December 2018 17:53:01 Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
[...]
> The pid was there so that when writing and testing the script
> I could tell which was which in taskmanager, which saw them
> all as the same thing - an instance of the script language's
> interpreter being run.
>
I can see where that could, if you "got your head" around it, be pretty 
handy. But half or more of my gcode mistakes are typu's. And the rs274D 
interpretor is very VERY good at recommending you learn to type. ;-)

> The script is written in ooREXX; anyone who wants it can have
> a copy.  I expect somethig similar could be written in loads of
> other langages, but it's the one I know best.

Back when we did most of our scripting on amiga's, ARexx was the language 
to top all the rest, but then when we got tired of the instability, and 
I went to linux, where I found that neither Rexx nor Regina could get 
past line 2 of any of my utilities without barfing all over itself as 
neither of the "next gen" rexx's weren't anything like ARexx, which Bill 
Hawes never got a damned dime from commode door for writing it, but it 
had calls into every facility amigados had, so there weren't any fences 
between what you wanted it to do, and what you could do. So I fell back 
to bash. And while the bash docs are at least 250 pages, its not ARexx. 
But it handles the coupling between fetchmail/procmail and kmail, so I 
have virtually nothing to but reply and send, and hit the plus key to 
read the next message. Computers are to reduce one's work, not multiply 
it times 15. Call me lazy, but it "works for me".. 

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

The latest Freecad version claims to have a robust undo-redo stack.  I
haven't really put it to the test yet, though.

Even infinite undo does not always suffice.  You may not remember
exactly when and how you went off the rails, or you may have other
reasons to want to look back.  version control is the answer, and I just
discovered that there is an add-on for exactly that:

https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/Arch_Git
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Unpacking a large zipfile, was Re: librecad

[David Wright]

On Sat 08 Dec 2018 at 15:01:11 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> Thats what I'm embarking on doing, building master from src. but the zip 
> seems to be a problem, mc is unpacking it and copying to ~/src, doubling 
> the 180 some megs of the zip, but with mc piping both, its watch paint 
> dry slow, about 40 kilobytes/sec of 360+ megs of src. So its not yet 
> done creating a source tree from the zip.  About 85% done when I last 
> took a peek a minute ago.

Unpacking a zipfile containing a large number of files with mc is a
really bad idea. For example, a 5245 file zip with 199 subdirectories
took unzip about 34 seconds to unpack. mc took over 16 minutes.
Why? Because it ran over 5245 uzip processes, one after the other.
Stick to using it to inspect zipfiles and perhaps unzipping just the
odd file or two.

Cheers,
David.

Re: librecad

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, at 18:59, Gene Heskett wrote:

> ... but the lack of a plainly marked, multiple step undo gets 
> me into a dead end box that results in a quit w/o save every time. 

I had a similar problem with a music-typesetting package under
Windows.

I guess a versioning file system (as discussed here fairly recently)
would help, but I don't have one.

Eventually I solved it with a script which examines a set of files 
(I specify a pattern for those) in the folder I'm working in.   When 
it starts and every few seconds (eg 10 secs) afterwards, it looks at
the files whose name matches that pattern.

For every file it finds for which there is not a corresponding backup
copy, it makes one.  A backup copy of a file has

(svd@mmdd-hhmmss)

appended to its extensionless leafname, where the date & time 
correspond to the time the backed-up file was last saved (not 
the time that this script saved the backup). 

So as soon as the script starts it makes a copy of each matching 
file (assuming none of those had prior backup copies) then 
whenever such a file changes and is written to disk again, another
backup is made.So eg 

Some song or other.pqr   could yield:
 
Some song or other (svd@20120716-184500).pqr 
Some song or other (svd@20120716-190723).pqr   etc   


I experimented with the monitor delay, and found (on a modern 
PC) when not using a filename pattern that matched huge numbers
of files, that there was no performance hit at all whether I looked at
the files every second or two or a good deal less often.  I made the
script pop-up a message box though when it had successfully made
a copy, and got into the habit of waiting for that confirmation every
time I'd just saved a file.

Rather than writing the script, what took longest to do was getting 
used to remembering to save the file(s) I was working on so often.
I used to keep detailed notes about I was doing to the musical score, 
as well, and stored the incrementally changing backup filenames in
the notes so it was easy to go back to previous points.

Not only was this useful for undoing my mistakes, it proved useful
for finding bugs in the typesetter AND being able to send the author
of that test files and 'what to do to recreate the problem' notes.  It
was quite often a day or two after I made some change to a file that
I found repercussions of that change, so notes (to help me find the
key files) were really important.


The script itself would run until stopped.  I controlled that by 
having each script generate a carefully-named flagfile and as soon
as that was deleted the corresponding script would stop.I could 
have multiple instances of the script running at once, and both the 
flagfiles and the typesetter (or whatever else) files were kept in folders 
visible from other machines/userids (all me though).  So flagfiles had 
in them

   - a representation of the monitored filename pattern
   - the monitor time interval
   - the machine name
   - the userid name
   - the time the script started
   - the pid under it was running

The pid was there so that when writing and testing the script
I could tell which was which in taskmanager, which saw them 
all as the same thing - an instance of the script language's 
interpreter being run.


The script is written in ooREXX; anyone who wants it can have
a copy.  I expect somethig similar could be written in loads of 
other langages, but it's the one I know best.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 08 December 2018 15:22:36 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > Thats what I'm embarking on doing, building master from src. but the
> > zip seems to be a problem
>
> That's doing it the hard way.  Use git as suggested here:
>
> https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/CompileOnUnix#Getting_the_source
>
> It works.

But its list of requires includes a bunch of 64 bit stuff. The wiki has 
an apt command to install all the dependencies, and I can't get that 
to work on a 32 bit install. It first can't find libvtk6.dev, remove 
that from the list and still get this bailout:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libsimage-dev : Depends: libsndfile1-dev but it is not going to be installed
 libxerces-c-dev : Depends: libxerces-c3.1 (= 3.1.1-3+deb7u2) but 
3.1.1-3+deb7u5 is to be installed
 qt4-dev-tools : Depends: libqt4-declarative (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-help (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-network (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-sql (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-xml (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-xmlpatterns (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqtcore4 (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqtdbus4 (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqtgui4 (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 qtchooser : Breaks: qt4-dev-tools (<= 4:4.8.4+dfsg-1~) but 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11 is 
to be installed
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by 
held packages.

It will take a bit of effort to resolve all that. Some of which may not be 
resolvable.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Thats what I'm embarking on doing, building master from src. but the
> zip seems to be a problem

That's doing it the hard way.  Use git as suggested here:

https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/CompileOnUnix#Getting_the_source

It works.

-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 08 December 2018 14:42:06 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > I've started to do something in freecad several times, I don't have
> > it here anymore, but the lack of a plainly marked, multiple step
> > undo gets me into a dead end box that results in a quit w/o save
> > every time.
>
> I find that undoing one action at a time almost always suffices.  To
> save myself when I get hopelessly befuddled I do checkpoint saves from
> time to time.
>
> Older releases of Freecad are here:
>
> https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/releases
>
> But why not build from source?
>
> https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/CompileOnUnix
>
> I've found in the past that it builds quite easily on Debian.

Thats what I'm embarking on doing, building master from src. but the zip 
seems to be a problem, mc is unpacking it and copying to ~/src, doubling 
the 180 some megs of the zip, but with mc piping both, its watch paint 
dry slow, about 40 kilobytes/sec of 360+ megs of src. So its not yet 
done creating a source tree from the zip.  About 85% done when I last 
took a peek a minute ago.

Thanks John.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> I've started to do something in freecad several times, I don't have it
> here anymore, but the lack of a plainly marked, multiple step undo
> gets me into a dead end box that results in a quit w/o save every
> time.

I find that undoing one action at a time almost always suffices.  To
save myself when I get hopelessly befuddled I do checkpoint saves from
time to time.

Older releases of Freecad are here:

https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/releases

But why not build from source?

https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/CompileOnUnix

I've found in the past that it builds quite easily on Debian.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 08 December 2018 08:38:15 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > LinuxCNC depends on a low latency IRQ response.
> > ...
>
> We understand all that, and I understand and agree with the "If it
> aint broke don't fix it" philosophy that leads to running "obsolete"
> computers and software in machine controls.  What does it have to do
> with the machine you run your CAD software on?

Nothing John, except the vertical, even seemingly leaning toward the 
beginner, learning curve to really put that software to productive use. 
I've started to do something in freecad several times, I don't have it 
here anymore, but the lack of a plainly marked, multiple step undo gets 
me into a dead end box that results in a quit w/o save every time. Maybe 
its there, but I've not found it. If I build a tool changer for the 
biggest mill I have, I expect that I'll need to use its facility to 
couple moving parts to see if there's any interference between stuff 
just to remove the mistakes I'll no doubt make if I just write the gcode 
to generate the thing one part at a time.

Unfortunately, even the src.zip has disappeared from github.
But poking around I did find FreeCAD-master.zip, and its copying to ~/src 
right now. Looks like a pretty long list of dependencies from the wiki 
on building it. Couple pages if printed.  So we'll see if its still 
buildable on wheezy. And this is probably going to be a long process. So 
I'll send this and advise success/fail later.

Thanks John.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> LinuxCNC depends on a low latency IRQ response.
> ...

We understand all that, and I understand and agree with the "If it aint
broke don't fix it" philosophy that leads to running "obsolete"
computers and software in machine controls.  What does it have to do
with the machine you run your CAD software on?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 December 2018 22:56:03 Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> Gene Heskett  writes:
> > On Friday 07 December 2018 19:54:56 John Hasler wrote:
> >> Joe writes:
> >> > ...he's still on wheezy.
> >>
> >> I wrote:
> >> > That is easily fixed.
> >>
> >> Gene writes:
> >> > Not until an rtai patched kernel is available for the newer
> >> > stuffs.
> >>
> >> Why would you run your CAD software on your machine controller?
> >
> > Why not John? With 6 machines here running 32 bit wheezy, one
> > running jessie on an R-PI-3B, and one running armbian stretch on a
> > arm64, all but the arm64 actually running a machine or the card
> > firmware updater, the only one w/o enough iron to run cad stuff is
> > the pi.
> >
> > This machine, with its comfy chair, can run anything installed on
> > the other 6 machines via ssh -Y logins, and all are or can be
> > mounted over an sshfs facility for moving files around. Samba/cifs
> > has turned into a headache precisely because of all the windows crap
> > that been incorporated in the last years since Andrew T. got a
> > helper.
> >
> > NFS, any version is at best a chain with broken links, whereas sshfs
> > Just Works.
> >
> > The machine that will carve the back panel is the best simulator
> > ever for code that will be run on it, simply by turning off all
> > motor power, I can run gcode on it, with the gui exported to this
> > machine and its comfy chair. This allows me to exercise the code,
> > making sure it does exactly what I had in mind, without carving up a
> > hundred bucks worth of raw material and putting more wear on a
> > cutting tool.
> >
> > alu is the hardest stuff to cut in terms of tool wear there is, only
> > partially mitigated by a mister directed fog of sealing oil directed
> > at the back of the cutting tool so the alu is sealed away from the
> > air, majorly sealing the just cut surface.
> >
> > 99% of the heat you get from machining alu is not the cutting tool
> > friction, but the burning of the alu as it forms a new layer of alu
> > oxide in the thousandth of a second after the passing cutting edge
> > of the tool has exposed the alu to the airborn oxygen. That alox
> > layer is the 2nd hardest substance we have, 2nd to diamond, and
> > asking the tool to cut thru it with every passing cutting edge is
> > pure hell even on silicon carbide tooling. At $10 to $50 a tool.
> >
> > CAD/CAM may be able to do it faster, but they do not yield editable
> > gcode. This file I am working with, if exported as gcode from
> > freecad, would be 5 to 20 megabytes because the cad/cam programs
> > have no clue about the use of loops and conditionals. I am doing all
> > this, with one hole of unk size to cut yet, with 199 LOC. 50+ is
> > comments, keeping track of what I'm doing.  And I can fix it with
> > the same editor I used to write it. geany.
> >
> > Biggest problem ATM is I'm one eyed, haven't let the left eye settle
> > long enough after the surgery Tuesday to be able to write a
> > prescription and get the correct lens in the frame, so its empty on
> > that side. Since I'm partial to hard coated Transitions lenses
> > (special order, takes 7 to 9 days in this neck of the woods), that
> > will be 2 more weeks till I've got two medium good eyes again.
> >
> > Other than that, whats not to like, John?
>
> First, because if you *really* need real time response, you shouldn't
> be running anything else that might be computationally intensive.  I'm
> happy to believe the developers of RTAI are competent, even excellent,
> programmers.  All the same, if I want real time levels of predictable
> response I don't want to put anything that might decide to be
> computationally intensive on the same machine.
>
> Second, because you're forcing yourself to look for workarounds due to
> the decision to use an obsolete (as in, not even in LTS since last
> May) distribution.  As we've seen in this thread.

LinuxCNC depends on a low latency IRQ response. No 64 bit kernel comes 
even close to being useable as the context switch itself can cost 20 
microseconds. When the same hardware can show 3 microseconds running an 
rtai patched 32 bit kernel, on a slow atom powered mobo, there is zero 
reason to upgrade. I am behind a router running dd-wrt. No one gets in. 
So I am not overy worried about security.

To compare that to this 64 bit phenon running 150% faster that the atom 
board with a 32 bit install but not a realtime kernel, runs that same 
latency-test, and comes up with a worst case lag of 5 milliseconds for 
what is supposed to be a 25 u-second loop. even the simulator is visibly 
slow. Yet its running kmail as I type this on another workspace with no 
visible lag.

And I have no reason to run a heavy app while its carving metal unless I 
am chasing down a fix, in which case there may be firefox and an IRC 
client, running too, but I don't expect miracles though.

When you can upgrade me to stretch or beyond on all those machines w/o 
killing the main job I built or bought 

Re: librecad

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Gene Heskett  writes:

> On Friday 07 December 2018 19:54:56 John Hasler wrote:
>
>> Joe writes:
>> > ...he's still on wheezy.
>>
>> I wrote:
>> > That is easily fixed.
>>
>> Gene writes:
>> > Not until an rtai patched kernel is available for the newer stuffs.
>>
>> Why would you run your CAD software on your machine controller?
>
> Why not John? With 6 machines here running 32 bit wheezy, one running 
> jessie on an R-PI-3B, and one running armbian stretch on a arm64, all 
> but the arm64 actually running a machine or the card firmware updater, 
> the only one w/o enough iron to run cad stuff is the pi.
>
> This machine, with its comfy chair, can run anything installed on the 
> other 6 machines via ssh -Y logins, and all are or can be mounted over 
> an sshfs facility for moving files around. Samba/cifs has turned into a 
> headache precisely because of all the windows crap that been 
> incorporated in the last years since Andrew T. got a helper.
>
> NFS, any version is at best a chain with broken links, whereas sshfs Just 
> Works.
>
> The machine that will carve the back panel is the best simulator ever for 
> code that will be run on it, simply by turning off all motor power, I 
> can run gcode on it, with the gui exported to this machine and its comfy 
> chair. This allows me to exercise the code, making sure it does exactly 
> what I had in mind, without carving up a hundred bucks worth of raw 
> material and putting more wear on a cutting tool.
>
> alu is the hardest stuff to cut in terms of tool wear there is, only 
> partially mitigated by a mister directed fog of sealing oil directed at 
> the back of the cutting tool so the alu is sealed away from the air, 
> majorly sealing the just cut surface.
>
> 99% of the heat you get from machining alu is not the cutting tool 
> friction, but the burning of the alu as it forms a new layer of alu 
> oxide in the thousandth of a second after the passing cutting edge of 
> the tool has exposed the alu to the airborn oxygen. That alox layer is 
> the 2nd hardest substance we have, 2nd to diamond, and asking the tool 
> to cut thru it with every passing cutting edge is pure hell even on 
> silicon carbide tooling. At $10 to $50 a tool.
>
> CAD/CAM may be able to do it faster, but they do not yield editable 
> gcode. This file I am working with, if exported as gcode from freecad, 
> would be 5 to 20 megabytes because the cad/cam programs have no clue 
> about the use of loops and conditionals. I am doing all this, with one 
> hole of unk size to cut yet, with 199 LOC. 50+ is comments, keeping 
> track of what I'm doing.  And I can fix it with the same editor I used 
> to write it. geany.
>
> Biggest problem ATM is I'm one eyed, haven't let the left eye settle long 
> enough after the surgery Tuesday to be able to write a prescription and 
> get the correct lens in the frame, so its empty on that side. Since I'm 
> partial to hard coated Transitions lenses (special order, takes 7 to 9 
> days in this neck of the woods), that will be 2 more weeks till I've got 
> two medium good eyes again.
>
> Other than that, whats not to like, John?

First, because if you *really* need real time response, you shouldn't be
running anything else that might be computationally intensive.  I'm
happy to believe the developers of RTAI are competent, even excellent,
programmers.  All the same, if I want real time levels of predictable
response I don't want to put anything that might decide to be
computationally intensive on the same machine.

Second, because you're forcing yourself to look for workarounds due to
the decision to use an obsolete (as in, not even in LTS since last May)
distribution.  As we've seen in this thread.

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

A caveat about Freecad: weird units.  Always select "Imperial", not "US
Customary" if you want to use inches.  They are European and added "US
Customary" at my behest, but screwed it up (deliberately, I suspect) by
having it jump to feet and inches when you go over 12 inches and to
yards, feet, and inches when over 3 feet.  The only way to get
everything in inches and decimal fractions thereof is to select
"Imperial".

Freecad has better documentation than Solvespace IMHO.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 December 2018 20:54:44 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 07.12.18 09:17, John Hasler wrote:
> > Gene writes:
> > > Thats a huge part of the problem, but theres another fence to
> > > jump. most of these so-called cad programs cannot generate even
> > > the most basic gcode.
> >
> > I can see not wanting to learn even a small part of a CAD program if
> > all you want to do is draw a simple floor plan and then never use it
> > again, but doing CNC without CAD is baffling.
> >
> > Freecad can produce gcode which you can inspect and modify.  The
> > post-processor can be customized for your particular machine.
> > Solvespace can also output gcode.  I have no idea how good the gcode
> > produced by either of these programs is because I have no way to use
> > it.
>
> Gene would have no trouble tweaking that if it was in the ballpark,
> after his years of writing the stuff from scratch. (Although
> auto-generated gcode will be a bit primitive, with a lot of data
> points, rather than a few optimised functions.)
>
> While I'm the one who did the 8 house plan drawings in Postscript, I
> wouldn't advocate that path for CAD for CNC. OK, Postscript can
> "print" text to stdout in addition to its drawing operations, so it
> could spit out gcode equivalent to what is drawn for inspection, _but_
> you'd have to hand knit the gcode to be generated by each of your hand
> knitted drawing functions. After a couple of months of development
> you'd have a nifty library available for re-use, but it's quite a hike
> to get there.
>
> > The major feature of these CAD programs is the constraint solver,
> > which understands geometry and does a huge amount of work for you. 
> > You can draw a part with dozens of equally spaced holes, change the
> > length of the part, and the holes will move appropriately.  Draw an
> > angle bracket with a brace, change the angle, and either the bracket
> > length or position will adjust appropriately depending on how you
> > constrained it. Draw a gear specifying pitch and tooth count and the
> > diameter will be computed. Change the pitch or tooth count and the
> > diameter will change. The diameter will only change by a
> > commensurate amount: no need for you to calculate allowable
> > dimensions (unless you want
> > fractional-tooth gears).
>
> If moved to try that in Postscript, you'd have to program the
> computations, and therefore decide in advance what would be
> auto-adjusted, e.g. input gear pitch and tooth count, then diameter
> will result. (While tolerances may appear on a drawing, gcode
> specifies a precise toolpath, and it's up to the machine to do its
> best to follow that. LinuxCNC will issue a "following error" and stop
> if it can't meet run-time tolerance specs.)
>
> > You can also do assemblies and specify constraints between
> > assemblies so that a change in one part will cause appropriate
> > changes to others. Interferences that would result in two objects
> > occupying the same space won't happen.  You can animate assemblies
> > and watch the machine run.  No more making cardboard models of
> > linkages and then having to stick to the tested ratios.
>
> Hmmm ... D for design, not just drawing. Powerfully tempting, if I
> ever have to do more than shuffle bits of house plans around on a
> sheet. (There the human utility, convenience, and comfort
> considerations, and even building regulations aren't amenable to
> automation, so drawing suffices, I found.)
>
> Sounds like Gene's bitten the bullet and done the job with what he
> has, by the sound of it. That's never a wrong move when it works.
>
> Erik

Thanks for the flowers Erik. What would probably amaze all the"papered" 
folks on some of these lists is that I am a C.E.T., and carry a long 
expired 1st Phone (because the commission thru us all under the bus 20 
years ago by downgrading the license and makeing the new one lifetime) I 
have a GED too, but I quit school in the high school freshman year to go 
to work fixing the then new fangled things called tv's, then switched to 
broadcasting in late 62, and have accumulated 23+ years as the Chief 
Engineer of a tv station, all on an 8th grade education. I was a "nerd" 
before the word was invented I think. I had the great good fortune to 
have a mother who was somewhat technical, the only girl in the 1929 
class on aviation technology at the Des Moines IA technical high school. 
If a little boy asked a question she did not know the answer to, she did 
know where the library was, so along with the McGuffy's readers, I was 
also reading high school physics textbooks by the age of 7.

But now I'm an old fart of 84, playing nursemaid/housekeeper to my 3rd 
wife of 29 years last week, she is late stage COPD. And harassing these 
email lists. Keeps me connected to the world, and outta the bars 
don'tcha know. :)

> (Who's gone owner-builder (swore I wouldn't do that again), and is
> currently too flat out to look at Freecad.)

Take care Erik, you are at times one 

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 December 2018 19:54:56 John Hasler wrote:

> Joe writes:
> > ...he's still on wheezy.
>
> I wrote:
> > That is easily fixed.
>
> Gene writes:
> > Not until an rtai patched kernel is available for the newer stuffs.
>
> Why would you run your CAD software on your machine controller?

Why not John? With 6 machines here running 32 bit wheezy, one running 
jessie on an R-PI-3B, and one running armbian stretch on a arm64, all 
but the arm64 actually running a machine or the card firmware updater, 
the only one w/o enough iron to run cad stuff is the pi.

This machine, with its comfy chair, can run anything installed on the 
other 6 machines via ssh -Y logins, and all are or can be mounted over 
an sshfs facility for moving files around. Samba/cifs has turned into a 
headache precisely because of all the windows crap that been 
incorporated in the last years since Andrew T. got a helper.

NFS, any version is at best a chain with broken links, whereas sshfs Just 
Works.

The machine that will carve the back panel is the best simulator ever for 
code that will be run on it, simply by turning off all motor power, I 
can run gcode on it, with the gui exported to this machine and its comfy 
chair. This allows me to exercise the code, making sure it does exactly 
what I had in mind, without carving up a hundred bucks worth of raw 
material and putting more wear on a cutting tool.

alu is the hardest stuff to cut in terms of tool wear there is, only 
partially mitigated by a mister directed fog of sealing oil directed at 
the back of the cutting tool so the alu is sealed away from the air, 
majorly sealing the just cut surface.

99% of the heat you get from machining alu is not the cutting tool 
friction, but the burning of the alu as it forms a new layer of alu 
oxide in the thousandth of a second after the passing cutting edge of 
the tool has exposed the alu to the airborn oxygen. That alox layer is 
the 2nd hardest substance we have, 2nd to diamond, and asking the tool 
to cut thru it with every passing cutting edge is pure hell even on 
silicon carbide tooling. At $10 to $50 a tool.

CAD/CAM may be able to do it faster, but they do not yield editable 
gcode. This file I am working with, if exported as gcode from freecad, 
would be 5 to 20 megabytes because the cad/cam programs have no clue 
about the use of loops and conditionals. I am doing all this, with one 
hole of unk size to cut yet, with 199 LOC. 50+ is comments, keeping 
track of what I'm doing.  And I can fix it with the same editor I used 
to write it. geany.

Biggest problem ATM is I'm one eyed, haven't let the left eye settle long 
enough after the surgery Tuesday to be able to write a prescription and 
get the correct lens in the frame, so its empty on that side. Since I'm 
partial to hard coated Transitions lenses (special order, takes 7 to 9 
days in this neck of the woods), that will be 2 more weeks till I've got 
two medium good eyes again.

Other than that, whats not to like, John?

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Erik Christiansen]

On 07.12.18 09:17, John Hasler wrote:
> Gene writes:
> > Thats a huge part of the problem, but theres another fence to
> > jump. most of these so-called cad programs cannot generate even the
> > most basic gcode.
> 
> I can see not wanting to learn even a small part of a CAD program if all
> you want to do is draw a simple floor plan and then never use it again,
> but doing CNC without CAD is baffling.
> 
> Freecad can produce gcode which you can inspect and modify.  The
> post-processor can be customized for your particular machine.
> Solvespace can also output gcode.  I have no idea how good the gcode
> produced by either of these programs is because I have no way to use it.

Gene would have no trouble tweaking that if it was in the ballpark,
after his years of writing the stuff from scratch. (Although
auto-generated gcode will be a bit primitive, with a lot of data points,
rather than a few optimised functions.)

While I'm the one who did the 8 house plan drawings in Postscript, I
wouldn't advocate that path for CAD for CNC. OK, Postscript can "print"
text to stdout in addition to its drawing operations, so it could spit
out gcode equivalent to what is drawn for inspection, _but_ you'd have
to hand knit the gcode to be generated by each of your hand knitted
drawing functions. After a couple of months of development you'd have a
nifty library available for re-use, but it's quite a hike to get there.

> The major feature of these CAD programs is the constraint solver, which
> understands geometry and does a huge amount of work for you.  You can
> draw a part with dozens of equally spaced holes, change the length of
> the part, and the holes will move appropriately.  Draw an angle bracket
> with a brace, change the angle, and either the bracket length or
> position will adjust appropriately depending on how you constrained it.
> Draw a gear specifying pitch and tooth count and the diameter will be
> computed. Change the pitch or tooth count and the diameter will
> change. The diameter will only change by a commensurate amount: no need
> for you to calculate allowable dimensions (unless you want
> fractional-tooth gears).

If moved to try that in Postscript, you'd have to program the
computations, and therefore decide in advance what would be
auto-adjusted, e.g. input gear pitch and tooth count, then diameter will
result. (While tolerances may appear on a drawing, gcode specifies a
precise toolpath, and it's up to the machine to do its best to follow
that. LinuxCNC will issue a "following error" and stop if it can't meet
run-time tolerance specs.)

> You can also do assemblies and specify constraints between assemblies so
> that a change in one part will cause appropriate changes to others.
> Interferences that would result in two objects occupying the same space
> won't happen.  You can animate assemblies and watch the machine run.  No
> more making cardboard models of linkages and then having to stick to the
> tested ratios.

Hmmm ... D for design, not just drawing. Powerfully tempting, if I ever
have to do more than shuffle bits of house plans around on a sheet.
(There the human utility, convenience, and comfort considerations, and
even building regulations aren't amenable to automation, so drawing
suffices, I found.)

Sounds like Gene's bitten the bullet and done the job with what he has,
by the sound of it. That's never a wrong move when it works.

Erik
(Who's gone owner-builder (swore I wouldn't do that again), and is
currently too flat out to look at Freecad.)

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Joe writes:
> ...he's still on wheezy.

I wrote:
> That is easily fixed.

Gene writes:
> Not until an rtai patched kernel is available for the newer stuffs.

Why would you run your CAD software on your machine controller?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 December 2018 14:15:44 John Hasler wrote:

> Joe writes:
> > ...he's still on wheezy.
>
> That is easily fixed.

Not until an rtai patched kernel is available for the newer stuffs.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad (was)

[Gene Heskett]

And except for fine tuning the locations of a couple db25 cutouts, which 
I'll have to carve a test piece in wood to check and drilling a hole for 
the line cord packing gland, its done.

 I guess I'll have to wait, and measure for hole size when they arrive 
since the mounting hole is specified as 15.2mm or .5". Now really what 
size is it since 15.2 is maybe 4 thou smaller than .6". Something tells 
me that was a badly un-calibrated eyeball that measured it.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Dec 07, 2018 at 01:15:44PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> Joe writes:
> > ...he's still on wheezy.
> 
> That is easily fixed.

You'd think that, unless you've read the last two years of this mailing
list.

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Joe writes:
> ...he's still on wheezy.

That is easily fixed.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Joe Pfeiffer]

John Hasler  writes:

> Gene writes:
>> Solvespace, googling now, downloaded, will take a look.
>
> No  need to download.  It's in Debian.

Note that he isn't likely to find anything remotely up to date in a
repository, as he's still on wheezy.

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Thats a huge part of the problem, but theres another fence to
> jump. most of these so-called cad programs cannot generate even the
> most basic gcode.

I can see not wanting to learn even a small part of a CAD program if all
you want to do is draw a simple floor plan and then never use it again,
but doing CNC without CAD is baffling.

Freecad can produce gcode which you can inspect and modify.  The
post-processor can be customized for your particular machine.
Solvespace can also output gcode.  I have no idea how good the gcode
produced by either of these programs is because I have no way to use it.

The major feature of these CAD programs is the constraint solver, which
understands geometry and does a huge amount of work for you.  You can
draw a part with dozens of equally spaced holes, change the length of
the part, and the holes will move appropriately.  Draw an angle bracket
with a brace, change the angle, and either the bracket length or
position will adjust appropriately depending on how you constrained it.
Draw a gear specifying pitch and tooth count and the diameter will be
computed. Change the pitch or tooth count and the diameter will
change. The diameter will only change by a commensurate amount: no need
for you to calculate allowable dimensions (unless you want
fractional-tooth gears).

You can also do assemblies and specify constraints between assemblies so
that a change in one part will cause appropriate changes to others.
Interferences that would result in two objects occupying the same space
won't happen.  You can animate assemblies and watch the machine run.  No
more making cardboard models of linkages and then having to stick to the
tested ratios.

There are also lots of contributed macros and add-on toolbenches for
Freecad.

-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

> Something like that might be easier to get to grips with.   A /big/
> advantage of using scripts is that one gets to place comments in 
> the script explaining what's going on, why one did something in a
> particular way etc.

Both Solvespace and Freecad allow comments.  Both support 2D
drawing. Freecad has extensive support for scripting in Python.

> Also scripts easily allow parameterisation of values - eg (for the 
> house plans) what the thickness of a piece of timber is, or what 
> the spacing between regular items should be.

These are key features of any CAD program.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[hdv@gmail]

On 12/7/18 2:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> All very encouraging. But in about 4 hours, I've written and tested about 
> 90 LOC which is about 75% of what I need to have this do. :) So I think 
> I'll continue on this path. :)

There's always more than one way to scratch an itch...  ;-)

> Thank you.

You're welcome.

Grx HdV

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 December 2018 04:27:23 hdv@gmail wrote:

> On 12/7/18 1:46 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 06 December 2018 17:48:21 hdv@gmail wrote:
> >> On 12/6/18 11:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> Greetings all;
> >>>
> >>> The librecad in the debian repos for wheezy is nearly a decade
> >>> old, v-1.02. There are V2-* stuff that still runs on QT4 some of
> >>> which is already installed.
> >>>
> >>> Is there a repo where I can source a newer version than 1.02
> >>> without destroying my system?
> >>>
> >>> 1.02 is so old the u-tube tuts are nearly worthless, yet it shows
> >>> promise of being able to lay out a boxes rear panel with 13
> >>> connections thru it. which is what I am trying to do.
> >>>
> >>> Or is there an even better 2d app for such?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks everybody.
> >>
> >> Hai Gene,
> >>
> >> Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude
> >> there were too many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've
> >> adopted QCAD (the Pro version)
> >
> > And that I'd assume is not in the repo's for wheezy.  I have looked
> > at the earlier version that is in the repos and found it much more
> > confusing, to the point I'd be doomed from the gitgo. And I'd still
> > have to write the gcode to make it.
> >
> > I have all the measurements written out, so if a decent libreCAD
> > can't be had, I'll just write it in gcode and feed it direct to
> > LinuxCNC. With measurements in hand I can probably have working code
> > by the time I get a good lens in front of the left eye. I've had
> > cataract surgery in both eyes now, and am basically waiting for a
> > stable glaucoma pressure reading so a script for a lens won't have
> > to be done 2 or 3 times before its long term usable.
> >
> > Thanks for the observations about qcad.  Is the pro version offered
> > commercially?
>
> It is. But the price is real good. If I remember correctly I paid €33
> for it. And it comes with a CAM module, so you can easily have your
> designs CNC'ed. I only once needed support, but that time it was
> outstanding. Installation on my system went without any hitch at all.
> Best of all, it is contained, so you don't have to hunt for files all
> over your system if you decide it isn't the right solution for you.
> There is a community edition that is free. So before spending your
> money you can first test it to find out if you like it.
>
> You can use command line instructions or just click on the associated
> buttons to draw what you want. Whatever fits you drawing style best. I
> find myself using both styles to be honest (I used to be a command
> line only type, but I got lazy along the way, it seems  ;-) ).
>
> I am not sure how familiar you are with the AutoCAD-type of
> interfaces, but if you would need some "help", there is a book
> available. The application has built-in help, but that is about the
> available commands and how to use them. The book is more about how to
> draw in QCAD.
>
> P.S. I am not in any way associated with them (except for being a
> customer).
>
> Grx HdV

All very encouraging. But in about 4 hours, I've written and tested about 
90 LOC which is about 75% of what I need to have this do. :) So I think 
I'll continue on this path. :)

Thank you.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 December 2018 01:39:35 Jeremy Nicoll wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018, at 22:32, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Or is there an even better 2d app for such?
>
> There was a discussion here starting in Nov 2017, entitled
>
>"software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc."
>
> where several people bemoaned the difficulty they had in getting
> any GUI-based CAD program to do what they needed, without a
> huge learning curve.

Thats a huge part of the problem, but theres another fence to jump. most 
of these so-called cad programs cannot generate even the most basic 
gcode.  And if you have to hand translate its printouts into gcode, you 
may as well write the gcode to do the job in the first place. First, 
your gcode is 10-5000 times more compact, I have it doing 10 holes in 
the needed pattern in under 90 LOC right now, probably under 150 LOC 
when its ready to be actually carved into the alu back panel of this 
box.

> Someone described how they'd instead used hand-coded PostScript
> (which is in essence a set of drawing commands, normally sent to a
> laser printer) to draw plans for house changes.
>
Never tried that. but my customer is a cnc controlled milling machine. 
Not a printer. This process is subtractive, not additive.

I couldn't get to sleep, so I've been up writing gcode since bout 4am 
local, and have about 75% of it done and working, with the rest being a 
matter of getting some measurements from my as built box so far, and 
setting up 2 more of LCNC's 10 available co-ordinate maps to place an 
already written dsub connector pattern in the correct 2 locations.  Then 
I screw the panel to a piece of sacrificial wood and hit r on the 
keyboard and go take a nap. gcode may look like magic, but its quite 
straight forward once its understood. Then one more hole, for a packing 
gland to restrain the line cord, and I'm done. But not till it gets here 
next week so I can measure what size hole it needs. Might as well do it 
all in one pass.

> Something like that might be easier to get to grips with.   A /big/
> advantage of using scripts is that one gets to place comments in
> the script explaining what's going on, why one did something in a
> particular way etc.
>
gcode allows that.

> Also scripts easily allow parameterisation of values - eg (for the
> house plans) what the thickness of a piece of timber is, or what
> the spacing between regular items should be.

gcode can do that. Also has if/else/endif/while/endwhile/repeat etc 
language constructs. And subroutines. Cuts threads at any tpi or tpmm. 
Imperial or metric, no gears limiting what you can do as the coupling 
between the spindle and the workpiece is electronically geared together 
to submicron accuracy. Whats not to like other than cleaning up the mess 
as its made?

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[hdv@gmail]

On 12/7/18 10:50 AM, Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 19:46:42 -0500
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
>> On Thursday 06 December 2018 17:48:21 hdv@gmail wrote:
>>
> 
>>>
>>> Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude
>>> there were too many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've
>>> adopted QCAD (the Pro version)   
> 
> I've found a couple of things that aren't quite right in LibreCAD, but
> not serious ones. I used the free QCAD up to the point of the fork, and
> it was really quite buggy for a long time. The zoom went wild at some
> magnifications, among other things. I jumped to LibreCAD when it
> appeared and I'm reasonably happy with it. All the bad QCAD bugs were
> fixed long ago, and I would assume they are fixed in QCAD now, if only
> by porting from LibreCAD. I do only use it occasionally, maybe twelve
> hours a year, so it may be much more irritating to a heavy user.

I am happy that I managed to escape that.  ;-)

I've been using QCAD for almost 2 years now (started with 3.16). The fork was a
long time before that. Maybe that was time enough to resolve a lot of the
issues? My impression was/is that development on LibreCAD has somewhat stalled.
I might be mistaken on that. Anyway, when I tested it it had a fair share of
issues that made me look for an alternative.

QCAD has been improving steadily during the time I've used it. On the other
hand, I am no "power user", thus it might be that I just didn't encounter the
things you've had to deal with. In the end it could be a matter of tastes if you
prefer LibreCAD over QCAD or the other way around. Some people like the latter
more, and others the first. For example, I prefer the UI of QCAD over that of
LibreCAD (even if both of them are derived from the same AutoCAD-type of
interface). I don't think it matters a lot. The problems using LibreCAD and the
lack thereof when I tried QCAD made me switch, because that mattered to me. I
needed to crank out some drawings and didn't want to struggle to do it. I am
sure there will be people that had the exact opposite experience and choose
LibreCAD.

If I had to make an estimate I think I might have spent about 250 hours using it
to draw aerospace and industrial machinery parts. Lately I've started using it
more for myself (to draw plans for woodworking projects). There were some minor
quirks, but nothing major. Luckily. However, I haven't tried the CAM stuff yet.
So I can't vouch for that, as I simply don't know how good it is.

Grx HdV

Re: librecad

[Joe]

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 19:46:42 -0500
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Thursday 06 December 2018 17:48:21 hdv@gmail wrote:
> 

> >
> > Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude
> > there were too many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've
> > adopted QCAD (the Pro version)   

I've found a couple of things that aren't quite right in LibreCAD, but
not serious ones. I used the free QCAD up to the point of the fork, and
it was really quite buggy for a long time. The zoom went wild at some
magnifications, among other things. I jumped to LibreCAD when it
appeared and I'm reasonably happy with it. All the bad QCAD bugs were
fixed long ago, and I would assume they are fixed in QCAD now, if only
by porting from LibreCAD. I do only use it occasionally, maybe twelve
hours a year, so it may be much more irritating to a heavy user.

> 
> And that I'd assume is not in the repo's for wheezy.  I have looked
> at the earlier version that is in the repos and found it much more 
> confusing, to the point I'd be doomed from the gitgo. And I'd still
> have to write the gcode to make it.
> 

Is there no way you can get hold of, say, an old laptop and run unstable
just for this? Version 2.1.3 currently. My poor little nine-year-old
netbook was just about useable for this when hooked up to a large
screen, though it's got stretch on it at the moment. Stretch apparently
has 2.1.2 and I don't recall much major happening in the last year or
two, well, let's say I haven't noticed anything new or fixed. (edit)
looking at the changelog, there doesn't seem like anything that I would
notice, I'm on Qt 5.11 but I wouldn't build from source.

-- 
Joe
-- 
Joe

Re: librecad

[hdv@gmail]

On 12/7/18 1:46 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 06 December 2018 17:48:21 hdv@gmail wrote:
> 
>> On 12/6/18 11:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings all;
>>>
>>> The librecad in the debian repos for wheezy is nearly a decade old,
>>> v-1.02. There are V2-* stuff that still runs on QT4 some of which is
>>> already installed.
>>>
>>> Is there a repo where I can source a newer version than 1.02 without
>>> destroying my system?
>>>
>>> 1.02 is so old the u-tube tuts are nearly worthless, yet it shows
>>> promise of being able to lay out a boxes rear panel with 13
>>> connections thru it. which is what I am trying to do.
>>>
>>> Or is there an even better 2d app for such?
>>>
>>> Thanks everybody.
>>
>> Hai Gene,
>>
>> Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude there
>> were too many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've adopted QCAD
>> (the Pro version) 
> 
> And that I'd assume is not in the repo's for wheezy.  I have looked at 
> the earlier version that is in the repos and found it much more 
> confusing, to the point I'd be doomed from the gitgo. And I'd still have 
> to write the gcode to make it.
> 
> I have all the measurements written out, so if a decent libreCAD can't be 
> had, I'll just write it in gcode and feed it direct to LinuxCNC. With 
> measurements in hand I can probably have working code by the time I get 
> a good lens in front of the left eye. I've had cataract surgery in both 
> eyes now, and am basically waiting for a stable glaucoma pressure 
> reading so a script for a lens won't have to be done 2 or 3 times before 
> its long term usable.
> 
> Thanks for the observations about qcad.  Is the pro version offered 
> commercially?

It is. But the price is real good. If I remember correctly I paid €33 for it.
And it comes with a CAM module, so you can easily have your designs CNC'ed. I
only once needed support, but that time it was outstanding. Installation on my
system went without any hitch at all. Best of all, it is contained, so you don't
have to hunt for files all over your system if you decide it isn't the right
solution for you. There is a community edition that is free. So before spending
your money you can first test it to find out if you like it.

You can use command line instructions or just click on the associated buttons to
draw what you want. Whatever fits you drawing style best. I find myself using
both styles to be honest (I used to be a command line only type, but I got lazy
along the way, it seems  ;-) ).

I am not sure how familiar you are with the AutoCAD-type of interfaces, but if
you would need some "help", there is a book available. The application has
built-in help, but that is about the available commands and how to use them. The
book is more about how to draw in QCAD.

P.S. I am not in any way associated with them (except for being a customer).

Grx HdV

Re: librecad

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018, at 22:32, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Or is there an even better 2d app for such?

There was a discussion here starting in Nov 2017, entitled

   "software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc."

where several people bemoaned the difficulty they had in getting
any GUI-based CAD program to do what they needed, without a
huge learning curve.

Someone described how they'd instead used hand-coded PostScript
(which is in essence a set of drawing commands, normally sent to a
laser printer) to draw plans for house changes. 

Something like that might be easier to get to grips with.   A /big/
advantage of using scripts is that one gets to place comments in 
the script explaining what's going on, why one did something in a
particular way etc.

Also scripts easily allow parameterisation of values - eg (for the 
house plans) what the thickness of a piece of timber is, or what 
the spacing between regular items should be. 

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: librecad

[Joe Pfeiffer]

John Hasler  writes:

> Have you looked at Freecad and Solvespace?

Note freecad is 3D, and his needs are apparently 2D.

Though I will relate that my (brief) acquaintance with freecad led me to
decide to just write Python scripts using python-occ to generate my
models.

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 December 2018 21:24:30 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > Solvespace, googling now, downloaded, will take a look.
>
> No  need to download.  It's in Debian.

Apparently not for wheezy. Nor for jessie on armhf. I'vr got a stretch on 
arm64 I'll check. But I haven't logged in from the last reboot, so I've 
no ssh path to it. Damn the paranoia thats makeing remote work more and 
more difficult for the user.

Anyway, I don't show it in any repo I have access to.
Thanks John.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 December 2018 20:41:43 John Hasler wrote:

> Have you looked at Freecad and Solvespace?
solvespace won't build here, git error maybe? I'll try some more in the 
morning.

Thanks John.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Solvespace, googling now, downloaded, will take a look.

No  need to download.  It's in Debian.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 December 2018 20:41:43 John Hasler wrote:

> Have you looked at Freecad and Solvespace?

Freecad I have, a bit too complex for me.

Solvespace, googling now, downloaded, will take a look.

Thanks for the hint.

Take Care John Hasler

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 December 2018 20:02:41 Doug wrote:

> On 12/06/2018 07:11 PM, Yves wrote:
> > i suggest you to crack windows 10 and dowload autodesk autocad trial
> > 30 day and then crack it too its pretty much an easy thing to do for
> > everybody. Sometime free sofware just dont have it you have to hack
> > it.
> >
> > On 2018-12-06 17:48, hdv@gmail wrote:
> >> On 12/6/18 11:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> Greetings all;
> >>>
> >>> The librecad in the debian repos for wheezy is nearly a decade
> >>> old, v-1.02. There are V2-* stuff that still runs on QT4 some of
> >>> which is already installed.
> >>>
> >>> Is there a repo where I can source a newer version than 1.02
> >>> without destroying my system?
> >>>
> >>> 1.02 is so old the u-tube tuts are nearly worthless, yet it shows
> >>> promise of being able to lay out a boxes rear panel with 13
> >>> connections thru it. which is what I am trying to do.
> >>>
> >>> Or is there an even better 2d app for such?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks everybody.
> >>
> >> Hai Gene,
> >>
> >> Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude
> >> there were too many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've
> >> adopted QCAD (the Pro version) and I am quite happy with it. I've
> >> been drawing some fairly complex stuff with it (industrial
> >> machinery) and have been able to do almost everything I needed it
> >> to do. Mind you it is 2D only, but as far as I can remember the
> >> same was true of LibreCAD.
> >>
> >> I think it might not satisfy the DFSG, as there are proprietary
> >> modules in it, but most of the code is licensed under GPLv3.
> >>
> >> Grx HdV
>
> You might want to look into DraftSight, a clone of AutoCad. Not free.
> Main drawback: it does not (or did not--haven't looked at it in a
> while) recognize whole word instructions, only the abbreviations of
> AutoCad 11, and probably later editions. I used a lite version of
> AutoCad at work, since I am not primarily a PCB designer, and I never
> learned the abbreviations. (Now retired for 16 years.) It runs
> on Linux--I have an RPM system.
>
> --doug, retired RF engineer.

Same here Doug, been retired from the CE's chair at a tv station here in 
WV USA since mid-2002. Started in '84, switched from consumer to 
broadcast in '62. I turned 84 a couple months back. Been converting 
metal carvers to be run by LinuxCNC since and keeping the local daytimer 
on the air.  Always wanting a bigger machine of coarse, but my garage is 
too full now. I'd build a bigger garage but I'm out of real estate & 
this time I'd need help, my back is going away.

I downloaded the 30 day Draftsight trial 5 or 6 years back, but got tired 
of their threats by email 4 or 5 times a day because they hold the docs 
hostage. I couldn't figure out how to run it w/o the docs, so I nuked it 
and wrote a procmail script to send their crap to /dev/null. Much more 
peacefull inbox now. :)

PM me if you want to trade war stories. I've BTDT quite a few times.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 December 2018 19:11:03 Yves wrote:

> i suggest you to crack windows 10 and dowload autodesk autocad trial
> 30 day and then crack it too its pretty much an easy thing to do for
> everybody. Sometime free sofware just dont have it you have to hack
> it.
>
Thanks, but no windows allowed on the premises. an all linux site IOW.

And if push comes to shove, I can code this up in gcode and carve it 
directly in the finished panel. Long before I've got both eyes working 
again. Cataract fixings in progress. At 84, I can claim I've lived 
Faust, but I haven't died Jung. :)

Take care Yves.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[John Hasler]

Have you looked at Freecad and Solvespace?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: librecad

[Doug]

On 12/06/2018 07:11 PM, Yves wrote:

i suggest you to crack windows 10 and dowload autodesk autocad trial 30
day and then crack it too its pretty much an easy thing to do for
everybody. Sometime free sofware just dont have it you have to hack it.

On 2018-12-06 17:48, hdv@gmail wrote:

On 12/6/18 11:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

The librecad in the debian repos for wheezy is nearly a decade old,
v-1.02. There are V2-* stuff that still runs on QT4 some of which is
already installed.

Is there a repo where I can source a newer version than 1.02 without
destroying my system?

1.02 is so old the u-tube tuts are nearly worthless, yet it shows promise
of being able to lay out a boxes rear panel with 13 connections thru it.
which is what I am trying to do.

Or is there an even better 2d app for such?

Thanks everybody.

Hai Gene,

Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude there were too
many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've adopted QCAD (the Pro version)
and I am quite happy with it. I've been drawing some fairly complex stuff with
it (industrial machinery) and have been able to do almost everything I needed it
to do. Mind you it is 2D only, but as far as I can remember the same was true of
LibreCAD.

I think it might not satisfy the DFSG, as there are proprietary modules in it,
but most of the code is licensed under GPLv3.

Grx HdV



You might want to look into DraftSight, a clone of AutoCad. Not free. 
Main drawback: it does not (or did not--haven't looked at it in a while) 
recognize whole word instructions, only the abbreviations of
AutoCad 11, and probably later editions. I used a lite version of 
AutoCad at work, since I am not primarily a PCB designer, and I never 
learned the abbreviations. (Now retired for 16 years.) It runs

on Linux--I have an RPM system.

--doug, retired RF engineer.

Re: librecad

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 December 2018 17:48:21 hdv@gmail wrote:

> On 12/6/18 11:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > The librecad in the debian repos for wheezy is nearly a decade old,
> > v-1.02. There are V2-* stuff that still runs on QT4 some of which is
> > already installed.
> >
> > Is there a repo where I can source a newer version than 1.02 without
> > destroying my system?
> >
> > 1.02 is so old the u-tube tuts are nearly worthless, yet it shows
> > promise of being able to lay out a boxes rear panel with 13
> > connections thru it. which is what I am trying to do.
> >
> > Or is there an even better 2d app for such?
> >
> > Thanks everybody.
>
> Hai Gene,
>
> Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude there
> were too many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've adopted QCAD
> (the Pro version) 

And that I'd assume is not in the repo's for wheezy.  I have looked at 
the earlier version that is in the repos and found it much more 
confusing, to the point I'd be doomed from the gitgo. And I'd still have 
to write the gcode to make it.

I have all the measurements written out, so if a decent libreCAD can't be 
had, I'll just write it in gcode and feed it direct to LinuxCNC. With 
measurements in hand I can probably have working code by the time I get 
a good lens in front of the left eye. I've had cataract surgery in both 
eyes now, and am basically waiting for a stable glaucoma pressure 
reading so a script for a lens won't have to be done 2 or 3 times before 
its long term usable.

Thanks for the observations about qcad.  Is the pro version offered 
commercially?

> and I am quite happy with it. I've been drawing some 
> fairly complex stuff with it (industrial machinery) and have been able
> to do almost everything I needed it to do. Mind you it is 2D only, but
> as far as I can remember the same was true of LibreCAD.
>
> I think it might not satisfy the DFSG, as there are proprietary
> modules in it, but most of the code is licensed under GPLv3.
>
> Grx HdV



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: librecad

[hdv@gmail]

On 12/6/18 11:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 
> The librecad in the debian repos for wheezy is nearly a decade old, 
> v-1.02. There are V2-* stuff that still runs on QT4 some of which is 
> already installed.
> 
> Is there a repo where I can source a newer version than 1.02 without 
> destroying my system?
> 
> 1.02 is so old the u-tube tuts are nearly worthless, yet it shows promise 
> of being able to lay out a boxes rear panel with 13 connections thru it. 
> which is what I am trying to do.
> 
> Or is there an even better 2d app for such?
> 
> Thanks everybody.

Hai Gene,

Some time ago I tried LibreCAD as well and soon had to conclude there were too
many issues with it to proceed. Meanwhile I've adopted QCAD (the Pro version)
and I am quite happy with it. I've been drawing some fairly complex stuff with
it (industrial machinery) and have been able to do almost everything I needed it
to do. Mind you it is 2D only, but as far as I can remember the same was true of
LibreCAD.

I think it might not satisfy the DFSG, as there are proprietary modules in it,
but most of the code is licensed under GPLv3.

Grx HdV

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 June 2016 18:05:02 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 09 June 2016 23:01:16 Gene Heskett wrote:
> >  org.kde.kcalc-6112
>
> Probably absolutely irrelevant - but why have you got kde-anything?? 
> (For general info, Gene is running TDE 14, not kde.)
>
> Lisi

That particular kcalc is an older kcalc, with a bit field display of the 
result, rather handy when designing an IO port address decoder on a 
smaller (16 bit) machine.

I think it was discussed on the tde list when I was asking who neutered 
the current version, so I have the two versions installed in different 
paths, and they seem to co-exist quite peacefully.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 09 June 2016 23:01:16 Gene Heskett wrote:
>  org.kde.kcalc-6112

Probably absolutely irrelevant - but why have you got kde-anything??  (For 
general info, Gene is running TDE 14, not kde.)

Lisi

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 June 2016 16:33:45 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote on 06/09/16 17:59:
> > On Thursday 09 June 2016 05:39:08 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:
> >> Yeah, you got a lot of stuff here ;-)
> >>
> >> The repositories all got the same priority 500 besides the
> >> wheezy-backports i386 target release which is set to priority 100.
> >> These priorities are normally set in /etc/apt/preferences. What is
> >> the contents of this file on your system?
> >
> > I don't have a file there, I have a preferences.d, and its empty.
> >
> >> The easiest to try for your specific request is to list also the
> >> dependencies explicitly in the apt-get command:
> >>
> >>apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-doc
> >> qt4-dev-tools libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> >
> > Reading package lists... Done
> > Building dependency tree
> > Reading state information... Done
> > Suggested packages:
> >   qt4-doc-html
> > Recommended packages:
> >   qt4-designer qt4-doc
> > The following NEW packages will be installed:
> >   freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
> > The following packages will be upgraded:
> >   libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> > 2 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
> > Inst libsoqt4-20 [1.5.0-2] (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Inst qt4-dev-tools
> > (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Inst python-pivy
> > [0.5.0~v609hg-1] (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Inst freecad
> > (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> > Inst freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [all]) Conf libsoqt4-20
> > (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> > Conf qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Conf python-pivy
> > (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> > Conf freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Conf freecad-doc
> > (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [all])
> >
> > Which is as far as I got since the needed updated version of
> > python-pivy isn't available even from sloppy, and neither is the
> > newer version of libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1
>
> 
> Ah, the above command line has the "-s" switch for "simulate". Did you
> really try to perform the installation?
>
>   apt-get -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-doc
> qt4-dev-tools libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
>
> (in one command line).

No, and at the instant I have a far bigger problem.  The qdbus update 
that was pulled sometime in the last couple days is BUSTED. I didn't 
restart it at the time but got tired of being  pestered about it so I 
let synaptic restart it. Up to then it was working flawlessly and now 
its apparently broken big time.  I've 2 real printers here, and cups 
can't find them, and I was using it to tell kmail to do a mail fetch.

I've no clue how much else is not working now.

The output of qdbus (as me):
gene@coyote:~$ qdbus
:1.0
 org.kde.kcalc-6112
:1.1
 org.xfce.Terminal4
:1.17
:1.19
:1.2
:1.20
:1.26
:1.3
 org.gtk.vfs.Daemon
org.freedesktop.DBus

No cups, no kde, and I just reinstalled all 3 bits of it.

Is there a config workaround that will restore its function, I have now 
restarted it 5 times, but have only exercised my fingers, its dead Jim.

And my wife is going to want the pix printed that her niece just sent me 
two copies of at 15 megs a pop.

Cups, at localhost:631/printers is saying it cannot locate the printer.

But I can ping the scanner in a couple milliseconds, its an MFP, 
accessable at a local ip address.  So add networking as a 2nd thing it 
cannot do now.

Help!

>
> Regards,
> jvp.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Gene Heskett wrote on 06/09/16 17:59:
> On Thursday 09 June 2016 05:39:08 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, you got a lot of stuff here ;-)
>>
>> The repositories all got the same priority 500 besides the
>> wheezy-backports i386 target release which is set to priority 100.
>> These priorities are normally set in /etc/apt/preferences. What is the
>> contents of this file on your system?
> 
> I don't have a file there, I have a preferences.d, and its empty.
> 
>> The easiest to try for your specific request is to list also the
>> dependencies explicitly in the apt-get command:
>>
>>apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-doc
>> qt4-dev-tools libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> 
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree   
> Reading state information... Done
> Suggested packages:
>   qt4-doc-html
> Recommended packages:
>   qt4-designer qt4-doc
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>   freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
> The following packages will be upgraded:
>   libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> 2 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
> Inst libsoqt4-20 [1.5.0-2] (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Inst qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Inst python-pivy [0.5.0~v609hg-1] (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Inst freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Inst freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [all])
> Conf libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Conf qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Conf python-pivy (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Conf freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Conf freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [all])
> 
> Which is as far as I got since the needed updated version of python-pivy 
> isn't available even from sloppy, and neither is the newer version of 
> libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1
> 

Ah, the above command line has the "-s" switch for "simulate". Did you really
try to perform the installation?

  apt-get -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
libsoqt4-20 python-pivy

(in one command line).

Regards,
jvp.

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 June 2016 05:39:08 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

> Yeah, you got a lot of stuff here ;-)
>
> The repositories all got the same priority 500 besides the
> wheezy-backports i386 target release which is set to priority 100.
> These priorities are normally set in /etc/apt/preferences. What is the
> contents of this file on your system?

I don't have a file there, I have a preferences.d, and its empty.

> The easiest to try for your specific request is to list also the
> dependencies explicitly in the apt-get command:
>
>apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-doc
> qt4-dev-tools libsoqt4-20 python-pivy

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
Suggested packages:
  qt4-doc-html
Recommended packages:
  qt4-designer qt4-doc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
2 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
Inst libsoqt4-20 [1.5.0-2] (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Inst qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Inst python-pivy [0.5.0~v609hg-1] (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Inst freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Inst freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[all])
Conf libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Conf qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Conf python-pivy (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Conf freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Conf freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[all])

Which is as far as I got since the needed updated version of python-pivy 
isn't available even from sloppy, and neither is the newer version of 
libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1

Now, with sloppy added, let me rerun the command above to see if there 
are any diffs, as marking freecad turns the button red yet from unresolved
dependencies.

No, same results, and wheezy-backports-sloppy is not mentioned in the
results, so I won't further abuse the list with my drivel, other than 
to ask if sloppy has anything but "main" as thats all that has content
actually listed under origins.

> (This has the disadvantage that the information which packages are
> automatically installed is lost. Therefor, after successfully
> installing freecad inform the system about what are just dependency
> packages with
>
>   apt-mark auto qt4-dev-tools libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> )
>
> If the installation doesn't work, have a look at
> ttps://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . There it says:
>
> "
> To allow some newer packages for those systems we create so called
> sloppy distributions. For oldstable (wheezy) packages from the current
> testing (stretch) are allowed to be uploaded to
> wheezy-backports-sloppy.
>
As noted above, no help there.

> You can use it exactly as the current backports distribution, just add
> another line to your sources.list and install new packages via apt-get
> -t wheezy-backports-sloppy install or apt-get -t jessie-backports
> install. "
>
> By the way, a nice tool is apt-show-versions to see from which release
> (distribution) a package on your system is installed from.
> It could help to trim /etc/apt/sources.list.

Which it do doubt needs as I'm sure there are essentially duplicates
in there now.

Cheers JVP, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Yeah, you got a lot of stuff here ;-)

The repositories all got the same priority 500 besides the wheezy-backports i386
target release which is set to priority 100. These priorities are normally set
in /etc/apt/preferences. What is the contents of this file on your system?

The easiest to try for your specific request is to list also the dependencies
explicitly in the apt-get command:

   apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
libsoqt4-20 python-pivy

(This has the disadvantage that the information which packages are automatically
installed is lost. Therefor, after successfully installing freecad inform the
system about what are just dependency packages with

  apt-mark auto qt4-dev-tools libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
)

If the installation doesn't work, have a look at
ttps://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . There it says:

"
To allow some newer packages for those systems we create so called sloppy
distributions. For oldstable (wheezy) packages from the current testing
(stretch) are allowed to be uploaded to wheezy-backports-sloppy.

You can use it exactly as the current backports distribution, just add another
line to your sources.list and install new packages via apt-get -t
wheezy-backports-sloppy install or apt-get -t jessie-backports install.
"

By the way, a nice tool is apt-show-versions to see from which release
(distribution) a package on your system is installed from.
It could help to trim /etc/apt/sources.list.

Regards,
jvp.


Gene Heskett wrote on 06/08/16 15:44:
> On Wednesday 08 June 2016 02:41:02 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:
> 
>> Maybe, the priority of the package repositories for , e.g., package
>> "libsoqt4-20" is wrong.
>>
>> Let's see what's the outcome of
>>
>>   apt-cache policy
> 
> Rather lengthy, wordwrap off:
> 
> root@coyote:/home/gene# apt-cache policy
> Package files:
>  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>  release a=now
>  500 http://linuxcnc.org/ wheezy/2.6 i386 Packages
>  release o=Chris Radek ,a=linuxcnc,n=wheezy,l=LinuxCNC 
> and supporting files for Debian,c=2.6
>  origin linuxcnc.org

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 08 June 2016 02:41:02 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

> Maybe, the priority of the package repositories for , e.g., package
> "libsoqt4-20" is wrong.
>
> Let's see what's the outcome of
>
>   apt-cache policy

Rather lengthy, wordwrap off:

root@coyote:/home/gene# apt-cache policy
Package files:
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
 release a=now
 500 http://linuxcnc.org/ wheezy/2.6 i386 Packages
 release o=Chris Radek ,a=linuxcnc,n=wheezy,l=LinuxCNC 
and supporting files for Debian,c=2.6
 origin linuxcnc.org
 500 http://linuxcnc.org/ wheezy/base i386 Packages
 release o=Chris Radek ,a=linuxcnc,n=wheezy,l=LinuxCNC 
and supporting files for Debian,c=base
 origin linuxcnc.org
 500 http://linuxcnc.org/ wheezy/2.7-uspace i386 Packages
 release o=Chris Radek ,a=linuxcnc,n=wheezy,l=LinuxCNC 
and supporting files for 
Debian,c=2.7-uspace
 origin linuxcnc.org
 500 http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ wheezy/2.7-rtpreempt i386 Packages
 release o=LinuxCNC Buildbot 
,a=stable,n=wheezy,l=LinuxCNC packages 
(http://linuxcnc.org),c=2.7-rtpreempt
 origin buildbot.linuxcnc.org
 500 http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ wheezy/non-free i386 Packages
 release o=Unofficial Multimedia Packages,a=oldstable,n=wheezy,l=Unofficial 
Multimedia Packages,c=non-free
 origin www.deb-multimedia.org
 500 http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ wheezy/main i386 Packages
 release o=Unofficial Multimedia Packages,a=oldstable,n=wheezy,l=Unofficial 
Multimedia Packages,c=main
 origin www.deb-multimedia.org
 500 http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ wheezy/main-r14 i386 Packages
 release v=7.0,o=trinitydesktop.org,n=wheezy,l=Trinity Desktop 
Environment,c=main-r14
 origin mirror.xcer.cz
 500 http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ wheezy/deps-r14 i386 Packages
 release v=7.0,o=trinitydesktop.org,n=wheezy,l=Trinity Desktop 
Environment,c=deps-r14
 origin mirror.xcer.cz
 500 http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports/firefox-release i386 Packages
 release o=Debian Mozilla 
Team,a=wheezy-backports,n=wheezy-backports,l=Debian Mozilla 
Team,c=firefox-release
 origin mozilla.debian.net
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports/non-free Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports/main Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports/contrib Translation-en
 100 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports/non-free i386 Packages
 release v=,o=Debian 
Backports,a=wheezy-backports,n=wheezy-backports,l=Debian Backports,c=non-free
 origin http.us.debian.org
 100 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports/contrib i386 Packages
 release v=,o=Debian 
Backports,a=wheezy-backports,n=wheezy-backports,l=Debian Backports,c=contrib
 origin http.us.debian.org
 100 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports/main i386 Packages
 release v=,o=Debian 
Backports,a=wheezy-backports,n=wheezy-backports,l=Debian Backports,c=main
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates/non-free Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates/main Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates/contrib Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates/non-free i386 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=oldstable-updates,n=wheezy-updates,l=Debian,c=non-free
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates/contrib i386 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=oldstable-updates,n=wheezy-updates,l=Debian,c=contrib
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates/main i386 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=oldstable-updates,n=wheezy-updates,l=Debian,c=main
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/non-free Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/main Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/contrib Translation-en
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/non-free i386 Packages
 release v=7.11,o=Debian,a=oldstable,n=wheezy,l=Debian,c=non-free
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/contrib i386 Packages
 release v=7.11,o=Debian,a=oldstable,n=wheezy,l=Debian,c=contrib
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/main i386 Packages
 release v=7.11,o=Debian,a=oldstable,n=wheezy,l=Debian,c=main
 origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates/non-free Translation-en
 500 http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates/main Translation-en
 500 http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates/contrib Translation-en
 500 http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates/non-free i386 Packages
 release v=7.0,o=Debian,a=oldstable,n=wheezy,l=Debian-Security,c=non-free
 origin security.debian.org
 500 http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates/contrib 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Maybe, the priority of the package repositories for , e.g., package
"libsoqt4-20" is wrong.

Let's see what's the outcome of

  apt-cache policy

?

Regards,
jvp.

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 07 June 2016 11:10:19 Curt wrote:

> On 2016-06-07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> Installing (in simulation mode because it pulls in an enormous
> >> amount of stuff) freecad and freecad-docs in Wheezy LTS from Wheezy
> >> backports works for me (why qt4-dev-tools?) using apt-get.
> >>
> >> Viz
> >>
> >> apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-docs.
> >>
> >> Or maybe I'm not following you closely enough.  Should be
> >> straight-forward (famous last words).
> >
> > And these are in that category, emphasis on gory.
> >
> > oot@coyote:/home/gene# apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install
> > freecad freecad-doc Reading package lists... Done
> > Building dependency tree
> > Reading state information... Done
> > The following extra packages will be installed:
> >   libsoqt4-20 python-pivy qt4-dev-tools
> > Suggested packages:
> >   qt4-doc-html
> > Recommended packages:
> >   qt4-designer qt4-doc
> > The following NEW packages will be installed:
> >   freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
> > The following packages will be upgraded:
> >   libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> > 2 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
> > Inst libsoqt4-20 [1.5.0-2] (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Inst qt4-dev-tools
> > (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Inst python-pivy
> > [0.5.0~v609hg-1] (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Inst freecad
> > (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> > Inst freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [all]) Conf libsoqt4-20
> > (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> > Conf qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Conf python-pivy
> > (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> > Conf freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian
> > Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386]) Conf freecad-doc
> > (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports [all])
>
> Right, so no problem. Your sources.list is irregular (not quite the
> word perhaps)

But your KDE isn't 100% usable, the TDE version is.

> and there must be another freecad version in one of 
> those irregular repositories because freecad is not available in
> vanilla Wheezy at all.

If you look above, the only mention for the source of the file is from 
wheezy-backports.

> I thought we were talking about the version in wheezy-backports, which
> prompted me to post what I posted.

That is where it would come from as its enabled in the sources.list.  So 
it seems odd that it is there in a recent enough version, but its newer 
required dependencies are not.

That's a bug IMO.  But since its well known that my interests are at best 
described as "eclectic", my oar in those waters is just a toothpick.

Sigh

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Curt]

On 2016-06-07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>
>> Installing (in simulation mode because it pulls in an enormous
>> amount of stuff) freecad and freecad-docs in Wheezy LTS from Wheezy
>> backports works for me (why qt4-dev-tools?) using apt-get.
>>
>> Viz
>>
>> apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-docs.
>>
>> Or maybe I'm not following you closely enough.  Should be
>> straight-forward (famous last words).
>
> And these are in that category, emphasis on gory.
>
> oot@coyote:/home/gene# apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad 
> freecad-doc
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree   
> Reading state information... Done
> The following extra packages will be installed:
>   libsoqt4-20 python-pivy qt4-dev-tools
> Suggested packages:
>   qt4-doc-html
> Recommended packages:
>   qt4-designer qt4-doc
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>   freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
> The following packages will be upgraded:
>   libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
> 2 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
> Inst libsoqt4-20 [1.5.0-2] (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Inst qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Inst python-pivy [0.5.0~v609hg-1] (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Inst freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Inst freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [all])
> Conf libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Conf qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
> Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
> Conf python-pivy (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Conf freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [i386])
> Conf freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
> [all])

Right, so no problem. Your sources.list is irregular (not quite the
word perhaps) and there must be another freecad version in one of those
irregular repositories because freecad is not available in vanilla
Wheezy at all.

I thought we were talking about the version in wheezy-backports, which
prompted me to post what I posted.


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 07 June 2016 04:11:43 Curt wrote:

> On 2016-06-06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
> >
> > So it is, but I cannot install it, synaptic claims broken packages, 
> > but I click on custom -> broken and the list is empty.  And clicking
> > on fix broken packages does nothing.
> >
> > So synaptic seems confused, as is apt-get, but it at least names the
> > proken package, or does it:
> >
> > root@coyote:/home/gene/src#  apt-get -f install freecad freecad-doc
> > qt4-dev-tools
>
> Installing (in simulation mode because it pulls in an enormous
> amount of stuff) freecad and freecad-docs in Wheezy LTS from Wheezy
> backports works for me (why qt4-dev-tools?) using apt-get.
>
> Viz
>
> apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-docs.
>
> Or maybe I'm not following you closely enough.  Should be
> straight-forward (famous last words).

And these are in that category, emphasis on gory.

oot@coyote:/home/gene# apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad 
freecad-doc
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libsoqt4-20 python-pivy qt4-dev-tools
Suggested packages:
  qt4-doc-html
Recommended packages:
  qt4-designer qt4-doc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  freecad freecad-doc qt4-dev-tools
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libsoqt4-20 python-pivy
2 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
Inst libsoqt4-20 [1.5.0-2] (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Inst qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Inst python-pivy [0.5.0~v609hg-1] (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Inst freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Inst freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[all])
Conf libsoqt4-20 (1.6.0~e8310f-1~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Conf qt4-dev-tools (4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian 
Backports:/wheezy-backports [i386])
Conf python-pivy (0.5.0~v609hg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Conf freecad (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[i386])
Conf freecad-doc (0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 Debian Backports:/wheezy-backports 
[all])

root@coyote:/home/gene# apt-get install freecad freecad-doc
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 freecad : Depends: libsoqt4-20 (>= 1.6) but 1.5.0-2 is to be installed
   Depends: python-pivy (>= 0.5.0~v609hg-2) but 0.5.0~v609hg-1 is to be 
installed
 freecad-doc : Depends: qt4-dev-tools but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
root@coyote:/home/gene# 
=
That last E: is in error on synaptics, there are no broken or held packages, 
and it 
had zero problems installing this mornings updates, about 9 files IIRC.

The real problem is the versions of libsoqt4 and python-pivy are not 
fresh enough to meet the dependencies.  Am I missing a line in my 
/etc/sources.list that would have/show the versions it needs?

/etc/apt/sources.list=

deb http://http.debian.net/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
# deb http://http.debian.net/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main contrib non-free
# deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-backports main contrib non-free
# deb 
http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-r14.0.0/debian
 wheezy main
# deb http://http.us.debian.net/debian wheezy-backports main contrib non-free
# deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports iceweasel
deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports firefox-release
# deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb wheezy deps-r14 main-r14
# deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb wheezy deps-r14 main-r14
deb http://www.deb-multimedia.org wheezy main non-free
# deb-src http://www.deb-multimedia.org wheezy main
deb http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ wheezy 2.7-rtpreempt
deb-src 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Curt]

On 2016-06-06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>
>> It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
>
> So it is, but I cannot install it, synaptic claims broken packages,  but 
> I click on custom -> broken and the list is empty.  And clicking on fix 
> broken packages does nothing.
>
> So synaptic seems confused, as is apt-get, but it at least names the 
> proken package, or does it:
>
> root@coyote:/home/gene/src#  apt-get -f install freecad freecad-doc 
> qt4-dev-tools

Installing (in simulation mode because it pulls in an enormous
amount of stuff) freecad and freecad-docs in Wheezy LTS from Wheezy
backports works for me (why qt4-dev-tools?) using apt-get.

Viz

apt-get -s -t wheezy-backports install freecad freecad-docs.

Or maybe I'm not following you closely enough.  Should be straight-forward
(famous last words).

-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 06 June 2016 13:49:50 David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD
> > > > program, and never will.
> > >
> > > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago,
> > > it had a then decent CAD program.
> >
> > Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one
> > then either.
> >
> > That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its
> > just qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release. 
> > Freecad has run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or
> > 5 years, but not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning
> > curve, decent docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team,
> > his heekscnc convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of
> > other export data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the
> > N.I.S.T. std code format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code
> > base, but has now been extended many many times  So I haven't
> > propped a ladder against freecad and really really tried to learn
> > it.  But first I'd have to pull the sources and see if I can build
> > it to run on wheezy.
>
> It appears to be in wheezy-backports.

So it is, but I cannot install it, synaptic claims broken packages,  but 
I click on custom -> broken and the list is empty.  And clicking on fix 
broken packages does nothing.

So synaptic seems confused, as is apt-get, but it at least names the 
proken package, or does it:

root@coyote:/home/gene/src#  apt-get -f install freecad freecad-doc 
qt4-dev-tools
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 freecad : Depends: libsoqt4-20 (>= 1.6) but 1.5.0-2 is to be installed
   Depends: python-pivy (>= 0.5.0~v609hg-2) but it is not going 
to be installed
   Depends: python-pyside but it is not going to be installed
 qt4-dev-tools : Depends: libqt4-declarative (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-help (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-network (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-sql (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-xml (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqt4-xmlpatterns (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqtcore4 (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqtdbus4 (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
 Depends: libqtgui4 (= 4:4.8.2+dfsg-11) but 
4:4.8.6+git64-g5dc8b2b+dfsg-3~bpo70+1 is to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

But the only error I see is the version of the first package.

JVP, your turn I think.  Is this fixable?

>
> Cheers,
> David.

Thanks, to both of you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 06 June 2016 20:00:42 David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 19:39:52 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Monday 06 June 2016 19:16:41 David Wright wrote:
> > > On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 18:56:07 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > > On Monday 06 June 2016 18:49:50 David Wright wrote:
> > > > > On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > > > > > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD
> > > > > > > > program, and never will.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years
> > > > > > > ago, it had a then decent CAD program.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have
> > > > > > one then either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and
> > > > > > its just qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release.
> > > > > > Freecad has run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4
> > > > > > or 5 years, but not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical
> > > > > > learning curve, decent docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was
> > > > > > on the team, his heekscnc convertor got left behind.  And none of
> > > > > > its plethora of other export data formats are readily converted
> > > > > > the RS-274-D, the N.I.S.T. std code format for this.  Linuxcnc
> > > > > > grew from that code base, but has now been extended many many
> > > > > > times  So I haven't propped a ladder against freecad and really
> > > > > > really tried to learn it.  But first I'd have to pull the sources
> > > > > > and see if I can build it to run on wheezy.
> > > > >
> > > > > It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
> > > >
> > > > I can't find it there.  I looked with a view to pointing Gene to it
> > > > if it were there.
> > >
> > > Perhaps we disagree on the referent of "it"!
> > >
> > > -rw-r--r-- 18824580 Jun  6 13:11
> > > /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb
> > > eb83c48f5fdd6ec7c466ac1aec516741
> > > /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb (md5)
> >
> > Indeed!  Quotation from the subject line: Re: libreCAD, can't
> > find help docs (my stars).
>
> I tried to cut the quotation fairly precisely to the bit I was
> responding to: Debian CAD programs. I wanted to save Gene the trouble
> of compiling freecad from source as he seems very fond of it.
> Gene has already moved on from the Subject line. It would be pointless
> for me to change it now.
>
> Cheers,
> David.

Yes, I am not suggesting that you should.  But we did have different 
referents.  Gene would always rather mess around anyway.  Why do it the easy 
way when the difficult way will do ;-)

Lisi

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[David Wright]

On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 19:39:52 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 06 June 2016 19:16:41 David Wright wrote:
> > On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 18:56:07 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > On Monday 06 June 2016 18:49:50 David Wright wrote:
> > > > On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > > > > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD
> > > > > > > program, and never will.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago,
> > > > > > it had a then decent CAD program.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one
> > > > > then either.
> > > > >
> > > > > That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its
> > > > > just qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release. 
> > > > > Freecad has run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or
> > > > > 5 years, but not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning
> > > > > curve, decent docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team,
> > > > > his heekscnc convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of
> > > > > other export data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the
> > > > > N.I.S.T. std code format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code
> > > > > base, but has now been extended many many times  So I haven't propped
> > > > > a ladder against freecad and really really tried to learn it.  But
> > > > > first I'd have to pull the sources and see if I can build it to run
> > > > > on wheezy.
> > > >
> > > > It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
> > >
> > > I can't find it there.  I looked with a view to pointing Gene to it if it
> > > were there.
> >
> > Perhaps we disagree on the referent of "it"!
> >
> > -rw-r--r-- 18824580 Jun  6 13:11
> > /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb
> > eb83c48f5fdd6ec7c466ac1aec516741 
> > /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb (md5)
> 
> Indeed!  Quotation from the subject line: Re: libreCAD, can't find 
> help docs (my stars).

I tried to cut the quotation fairly precisely to the bit I was
responding to: Debian CAD programs. I wanted to save Gene the trouble
of compiling freecad from source as he seems very fond of it.
Gene has already moved on from the Subject line. It would be pointless
for me to change it now.

Cheers,
David.

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 06 June 2016 19:16:41 David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 18:56:07 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Monday 06 June 2016 18:49:50 David Wright wrote:
> > > On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > > > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD
> > > > > > program, and never will.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago,
> > > > > it had a then decent CAD program.
> > > >
> > > > Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one
> > > > then either.
> > > >
> > > > That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its
> > > > just qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release. 
> > > > Freecad has run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or
> > > > 5 years, but not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning
> > > > curve, decent docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team,
> > > > his heekscnc convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of
> > > > other export data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the
> > > > N.I.S.T. std code format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code
> > > > base, but has now been extended many many times  So I haven't propped
> > > > a ladder against freecad and really really tried to learn it.  But
> > > > first I'd have to pull the sources and see if I can build it to run
> > > > on wheezy.
> > >
> > > It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
> >
> > I can't find it there.  I looked with a view to pointing Gene to it if it
> > were there.
>
> Perhaps we disagree on the referent of "it"!
>
> -rw-r--r-- 18824580 Jun  6 13:11
> /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb
> eb83c48f5fdd6ec7c466ac1aec516741 
> /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb (md5)
>
> Cheers,
> David.

Indeed!  Quotation from the subject line: Re: libreCAD, can't find 
help docs (my stars).

Lisi

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[David Wright]

On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 18:56:07 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 06 June 2016 18:49:50 David Wright wrote:
> > On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD program,
> > > > > and never will.
> > > >
> > > > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago, it
> > > > had a then decent CAD program.
> > >
> > > Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one then
> > > either.
> > >
> > > That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its just
> > > qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release.  Freecad has
> > > run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or 5 years, but
> > > not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning curve, decent
> > > docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team, his heekscnc
> > > convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of other export
> > > data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the N.I.S.T. std code
> > > format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code base, but has now been
> > > extended many many times  So I haven't propped a ladder against freecad
> > > and really really tried to learn it.  But first I'd have to pull the
> > > sources and see if I can build it to run on wheezy.
> >
> > It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
> 
> I can't find it there.  I looked with a view to pointing Gene to it if it 
> were 
> there.

Perhaps we disagree on the referent of "it"!

-rw-r--r-- 18824580 Jun  6 13:11 /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb
eb83c48f5fdd6ec7c466ac1aec516741  /tmp/freecad_0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1_i386.deb
(md5)

Cheers,
David.

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 06 June 2016 18:49:50 David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD program,
> > > > and never will.
> > >
> > > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago, it
> > > had a then decent CAD program.
> >
> > Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one then
> > either.
> >
> > That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its just
> > qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release.  Freecad has
> > run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or 5 years, but
> > not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning curve, decent
> > docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team, his heekscnc
> > convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of other export
> > data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the N.I.S.T. std code
> > format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code base, but has now been
> > extended many many times  So I haven't propped a ladder against freecad
> > and really really tried to learn it.  But first I'd have to pull the
> > sources and see if I can build it to run on wheezy.
>
> It appears to be in wheezy-backports.
>
> Cheers,
> David.

I can't find it there.  I looked with a view to pointing Gene to it if it were 
there.

Lisi

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[David Wright]

On Mon 06 Jun 2016 at 13:12:33 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> 
> > On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD program,
> > > and never will.
> >
> > I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago, it
> > had a then decent CAD program.
> 
> Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one then 
> either.
> 
> That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its just 
> qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release.  Freecad has 
> run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or 5 years, but 
> not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning curve, decent 
> docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team, his heekscnc 
> convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of other export 
> data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the N.I.S.T. std code 
> format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code base, but has now been 
> extended many many times  So I haven't propped a ladder against freecad 
> and really really tried to learn it.  But first I'd have to pull the 
> sources and see if I can build it to run on wheezy.

It appears to be in wheezy-backports.

Cheers,
David.

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 06 June 2016 11:54:12 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

> On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 06 June 2016 09:12:46 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> >> On Dom, 05 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> > On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:
> >> >> All I can find as a "pis aller" after a quick look is this:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
> >> >
> >> > This I did find, but its for a much newer version 2.0 than what
> >> > is in the repo's.  That repo version is 1.02 according the about,
> >> > built in 2012. So one could say they are a tad out of step. And I
> >> > don't really see any great amount of progress in bringing the
> >> > repo version up to the docs version.
> >>
> >> Jessie, the current stable version, has version 2.0.4. Testing has
> >> 2.0.9. You seem to be running Wheezy; don't expect a newer version.
> >> For that matter, even Jessie is unlikely to get newer versions
> >> (with the exception of security fixes).
> >
> > So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD program,
> > and never will.
>
> I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago, it
> had a then decent CAD program.

Thats not what I said or intended to say, and no it didn't have one then 
either.

That qcad fork, with no docs is the best its ever offered, and its just 
qcad renamed & not even close to the last 1.0.7 release.  Freecad has 
run on every install I've tried it on over the last 4 or 5 years, but 
not on debian wheezy.  It too has a vertical learning curve, decent 
docs, but even though Dan Heeks is or was on the team, his heekscnc 
convertor got left behind.  And none of its plethora of other export 
data formats are readily converted the RS-274-D, the N.I.S.T. std code 
format for this.  Linuxcnc grew from that code base, but has now been 
extended many many times  So I haven't propped a ladder against freecad 
and really really tried to learn it.  But first I'd have to pull the 
sources and see if I can build it to run on wheezy.

Thanks Eduardo.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Seg, 06 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 06 June 2016 09:12:46 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

On Dom, 05 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:
>> All I can find as a "pis aller" after a quick look is this:
>>
>> http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
>
> This I did find, but its for a much newer version 2.0 than what is
> in the repo's.  That repo version is 1.02 according the about, built
> in 2012. So one could say they are a tad out of step. And I don't
> really see any great amount of progress in bringing the repo version
> up to the docs version.

Jessie, the current stable version, has version 2.0.4. Testing has
2.0.9. You seem to be running Wheezy; don't expect a newer version.
For that matter, even Jessie is unlikely to get newer versions (with
the exception of security fixes).


So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD program, and
never will.


I suppose that when it was released, little over three years ago, it  
had a then decent CAD program.

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 06 June 2016 09:12:46 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

> On Dom, 05 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:
> >> All I can find as a "pis aller" after a quick look is this:
> >>
> >> http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
> >
> > This I did find, but its for a much newer version 2.0 than what is
> > in the repo's.  That repo version is 1.02 according the about, built
> > in 2012. So one could say they are a tad out of step. And I don't
> > really see any great amount of progress in bringing the repo version
> > up to the docs version.
>
> Jessie, the current stable version, has version 2.0.4. Testing has
> 2.0.9. You seem to be running Wheezy; don't expect a newer version.
> For that matter, even Jessie is unlikely to get newer versions (with
> the exception of security fixes).

So the bottom line is that wheezy doesn't have a decent CAD program, and 
never will.  At some point, I'll be able to update the working CNC 
machines to jessie, but a target date hasn't been set yet.  I am used to 
writing my own gcode, some of which has been pretty complex, so its not 
a show stopper.

Thanks Eduardo.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Dom, 05 Jun 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:

All I can find as a "pis aller" after a quick look is this:

http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual


This I did find, but its for a much newer version 2.0 than what is in the
repo's.  That repo version is 1.02 according the about, built in 2012.
So one could say they are a tad out of step. And I don't really see any
great amount of progress in bringing the repo version up to the docs
version.


Jessie, the current stable version, has version 2.0.4. Testing has  
2.0.9. You seem to be running Wheezy; don't expect a newer version.  
For that matter, even Jessie is unlikely to get newer versions (with  
the exception of security fixes).

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Curt]

On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>
>> See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=646621
>
> Interesting.  Thank you.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

There's this

http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_v1_Users'_Manual

which contains the following link

http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/A_short_manual_for_use_from_the_command_line

Not entirely clear to me whether the short manual for the command line
still pertains to v1 or not. Even if it does, seems rather rudimentary.

-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Joe]

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:58:26 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 05 June 2016 13:10:52 Joe wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 09:17:13 + (UTC)
> >
> > Curt  wrote:  
> > > On 2016-06-03, Gene Heskett  wrote:  
> > > > Greetings all;
> > > >
> > > > Wheezy, i386.
> > > >
> > > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > > but it cannot find its help docs.  
> > >
> > > Did you give the built-in help system a try?  
> >
> > Mine (2.0.9 on sid) says, and I quote verbatim:
> >
> > "Bugger, I couldn't find the helpfiles on the filesystem."
> >
> > The only Debian packages are librecad and librecad-data, both of
> > which are installed.
> >
> > It's not a problem for me, as the 2.0.9 manual is on the Net, but
> > the manuals for earlier versions appear not to be.  
> 
> Correct.  Some of it might be that the "application preferences"
> ->path tab, is totally empty for all 5 entries.  I may take a look at
> the data package to see where it put stuff and see if I can fill in
> the blanks.
> 
> Do you have any entries in that pulldown?
> 

It has a Part Libraries entry, which I may or may not have put there
myself, and the rest are empty. None of them refer to 'help'.

/usr/share/librecad/qm contains a set of apparently language-based .qm
files, but I can't find a sensible way of opening them. I suspect it
has to be done through the Qt API, and this bit of program doesn't
exist in librecad yet.

-- 
Joe

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 13:28:48 Sven Arvidsson wrote:

> On Sun, 2016-06-05 at 18:10 +0100, Joe wrote:
> > > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > > but it cannot find its help docs.  
> > >
> > > Did you give the built-in help system a try?
> >
> > Mine (2.0.9 on sid) says, and I quote verbatim:
> >
> > "Bugger, I couldn't find the helpfiles on the filesystem."
> >
> > The only Debian packages are librecad and librecad-data, both of
> > which
> > are installed.
> >
> > It's not a problem for me, as the 2.0.9 manual is on the Net, but
> > the manuals for earlier versions appear not to be.
>
> See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=646621

Interesting.  Thank you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 13:10:52 Joe wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 09:17:13 + (UTC)
>
> Curt  wrote:
> > On 2016-06-03, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > Greetings all;
> > >
> > > Wheezy, i386.
> > >
> > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > but it cannot find its help docs.
> >
> > Did you give the built-in help system a try?
>
> Mine (2.0.9 on sid) says, and I quote verbatim:
>
> "Bugger, I couldn't find the helpfiles on the filesystem."
>
> The only Debian packages are librecad and librecad-data, both of which
> are installed.
>
> It's not a problem for me, as the 2.0.9 manual is on the Net, but the
> manuals for earlier versions appear not to be.

Correct.  Some of it might be that the "application preferences" ->path 
tab, is totally empty for all 5 entries.  I may take a look at the data 
package to see where it put stuff and see if I can fill in the blanks.

Do you have any entries in that pulldown?

Thanks Joe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 12:50:10 Curt wrote:

> On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:
> >> On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> >> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to
> >> >> > use but it cannot find its help docs.
> >> >>
> >> >> Did you give the built-in help system a try?
> >> >
> >> > That is what it is reporting that it cannot find.
> >>
> >> That is really unfair.
> >
> > On my part?  Really?  I find entirely too often on linux, that the
> > help tut from that menu pulldown is missing an annoying percentage
> > of the time.  No biggie to the author, he knows how to run his
> > masterpiece, can't you figure it out on your own?  Thats good for
> > the soil when its found on the ground behind the male of the bovine
> > specie, but not much else.
>
> No, I didn't mean you were being unfair, I meant that it's a bummer
> not having any good docs, especially for something like CAD software,
> which can be pretty complicated stuff.

Ah, we're on the same page then.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 11:54:02 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Sunday 05 June 2016 14:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I find entirely too often on linux, that the help
> > tut from that menu pulldown is missing an annoying percentage of the
> > time.
>
> Well, it's open source, Gene.  Learn how to use it then write the
> docs.  Or pay a technical author to learn how to use it by trial and
> error, blood sweat and tears, and then write the docs.  I know a good
> one, who would I am sure, enjoy learning how to use libreCAD, and then
> writing about it, but has to earn his bread and butter, and already
> spends a lot of his time on Open Source projects.
>
> Too many of us complain at what other people don't do with their spare
> time. Me included.
>
> Lisi

Guilty too I fear Lisi.  OTOH, something that works well and has a donate 
button on its web page, has found me clicking on the donate as long as 
the questionair to do so isn't a data gatherer to be sold to a spammer.  

When they want my unlisted phone number and mailing address is usually 
where I draw the line and close the page.  But if its an https page, and 
only wants my name as shown on the card, the card numbers, and how much, 
or has a paypal setup, then sure I'll donate.  I don't mind buying some 
decent breakfast bacon for the coder, but I'll be damned if I'll enhance 
a spammers ability to trash my phone, inbox or mailbox.  I own all 3, 
and I'm paying the bill to have the connectivity.  They are freeloaders 
IMO.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Jun 2016 at 16:54:02 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Sunday 05 June 2016 14:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I find entirely too often on linux, that the help
> > tut from that menu pulldown is missing an annoying percentage of the
> > time.
> 
> Well, it's open source, Gene.  Learn how to use it then write the docs.  Or 
> pay a technical author to learn how to use it by trial and error, blood sweat 
> and tears, and then write the docs.  I know a good one, who would I am sure, 
> enjoy learning how to use libreCAD, and then writing about it, but has to 
> earn his bread and butter, and already spends a lot of his time on Open 
> Source projects.
> 
> Too many of us complain at what other people don't do with their spare time.  
> Me included.  

Perhaps not relevant in this particular case, but there are people (who post
here) who say they don't install packages' Recommendations and Suggestions.

Looking at the package names containing '-doc' on my system:

Suggests: 22
Recommends: 19
No reason 7 (ie I had to select and install them)
Depends: 2

Cheers,
David.

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Joe]

On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 19:28:48 +0200
Sven Arvidsson  wrote:

> On Sun, 2016-06-05 at 18:10 +0100, Joe wrote:
> > > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > > but it cannot find its help docs.    
> > > Did you give the built-in help system a try?
> > >   
> > Mine (2.0.9 on sid) says, and I quote verbatim:
> > 
> > "Bugger, I couldn't find the helpfiles on the filesystem."
> > 
> > The only Debian packages are librecad and librecad-data, both of
> > which
> > are installed.
> > 
> > It's not a problem for me, as the 2.0.9 manual is on the Net, but
> > the manuals for earlier versions appear not to be.  
> 
> See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=646621
> 

Yes, it's obviously a bug, but I never bothered chasing it as I can see
that the librecad people are working flat out to fix functionality
bugs, presumably from the QT4 port, and the manual is available online.

-- 
Joe

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Sun, 2016-06-05 at 18:10 +0100, Joe wrote:
> > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > but it cannot find its help docs.  
> > Did you give the built-in help system a try?
> > 
> Mine (2.0.9 on sid) says, and I quote verbatim:
> 
> "Bugger, I couldn't find the helpfiles on the filesystem."
> 
> The only Debian packages are librecad and librecad-data, both of
> which
> are installed.
> 
> It's not a problem for me, as the 2.0.9 manual is on the Net, but the
> manuals for earlier versions appear not to be.

See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=646621

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Joe]

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 09:17:13 + (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2016-06-03, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Wheezy, i386.
> >
> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > but it cannot find its help docs.  
> 
> Did you give the built-in help system a try?
> 

Mine (2.0.9 on sid) says, and I quote verbatim:

"Bugger, I couldn't find the helpfiles on the filesystem."

The only Debian packages are librecad and librecad-data, both of which
are installed.

It's not a problem for me, as the 2.0.9 manual is on the Net, but the
manuals for earlier versions appear not to be.

-- 
Joe

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Curt]

On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:
>
>> On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> >> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
>> >> > but it cannot find its help docs.
>> >>
>> >> Did you give the built-in help system a try?
>> >
>> > That is what it is reporting that it cannot find.
>>
>> That is really unfair.
>
> On my part?  Really?  I find entirely too often on linux, that the help 
> tut from that menu pulldown is missing an annoying percentage of the 
> time.  No biggie to the author, he knows how to run his masterpiece, 
> can't you figure it out on your own?  Thats good for the soil when its 
> found on the ground behind the male of the bovine specie, but not much 
> else.
>

No, I didn't mean you were being unfair, I meant that it's a bummer not
having any good docs, especially for something like CAD software, which
can be pretty complicated stuff.

 
-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 14:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote:
> I find entirely too often on linux, that the help
> tut from that menu pulldown is missing an annoying percentage of the
> time.

Well, it's open source, Gene.  Learn how to use it then write the docs.  Or 
pay a technical author to learn how to use it by trial and error, blood sweat 
and tears, and then write the docs.  I know a good one, who would I am sure, 
enjoy learning how to use libreCAD, and then writing about it, but has to 
earn his bread and butter, and already spends a lot of his time on Open 
Source projects.

Too many of us complain at what other people don't do with their spare time.  
Me included.  

Lisi

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:59:14 Curt wrote:

> On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> >> > but it cannot find its help docs.
> >>
> >> Did you give the built-in help system a try?
> >
> > That is what it is reporting that it cannot find.
>
> That is really unfair.

On my part?  Really?  I find entirely too often on linux, that the help 
tut from that menu pulldown is missing an annoying percentage of the 
time.  No biggie to the author, he knows how to run his masterpiece, 
can't you figure it out on your own?  Thats good for the soil when its 
found on the ground behind the male of the bovine specie, but not much 
else.

> All I can find as a "pis aller" after a quick look is this:
>
> http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual

This I did find, but its for a much newer version 2.0 than what is in the 
repo's.  That repo version is 1.02 according the about, built in 2012.  
So one could say they are a tad out of step. And I don't really see any 
great amount of progress in bringing the repo version up to the docs 
version. Version 2.0 can apparently export in .svg, and .svg's can be 
assigned a scale and made into GCode without any huge hassle.  But the 
repo version cannot, leaving no easy route from its dxf output to 
something that can carve metal.  So, since I don't see a good tut for 
this, and its not able to export in a file format I can use, I'll 
expunge it and continue my search for something usable.

I had hopes that Dan Heeks would finish heekscad, which had a companion 
heekscnc that could spit out useable code, but he jumped ship to work on 
freecad, but to my knowledge heekscnc was not brought along, so freecad 
has no output format that is machine translateable to rs-274-d, that I 
am aware of.

> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=librecad
>
> >> > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> >> >
> >> > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks all.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett

Thanks for the links, but they don't fit the code I have.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Curt]

On 2016-06-05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> >
>> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but
>> > it cannot find its help docs.
>>
>> Did you give the built-in help system a try?
>>
> That is what it is reporting that it cannot find.

That is really unfair.

All I can find as a "pis aller" after a quick look is this:

http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=librecad

>> > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
>> >
>> > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
>> >
>> > Thanks all.
>> >
>> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> Thanks.
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 05 June 2016 05:17:13 Curt wrote:

> On 2016-06-03, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Wheezy, i386.
> >
> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but
> > it cannot find its help docs.
>
> Did you give the built-in help system a try?
>
That is what it is reporting that it cannot find.

> > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> >
> > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
Thanks.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Curt]

On 2016-06-03, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Greetings all;
>
> Wheezy, i386.
>
> libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but it 
> cannot find its help docs.

Did you give the built-in help system a try?

> I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
>
> Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 June 2016 10:51:15 Joe wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 07:36:24 -0400
>
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Friday 03 June 2016 07:03:54 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > On Friday 03 June 2016 10:59:53 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > Greetings all;
> > > >
> > > > Wheezy, i386.
> > > >
> > > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > > but it cannot find its help docs.
> > > >
> > > > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks all.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > >
> > > http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/Main_Page
> > > http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
> > >
> > > GIYF??? ;-)
> >
> > That, sadly, is for version 2.0, apparently much more capable than
> > the version in the repo's which is 1.07, and 6 years old.
>
> It's worth trying to run the current version (2.0.9) on Sid if you can
> organise it. It's still a bit buggy, but is improving fast with each
> version. Older versions were *much* worse. I also use a Windows
> version in emergencies, but that doesn't seem able to produce hard
> copy, or even graphics files, so is presumably a slightly older
> version.
>
> I used to use qcad, from [the community/free version of] which
> librecad was forked, and as far as I recall, the basics were very
> similar. Qcad still exists, but I believe the writers were not willing
> to port the free version to QT4, hence the fork. It took a while for
> the librecad people to sort out some really, really gross artefacts of
> the porting. Serious use of the zoom required 'great peace of mind'.
>
> I'd have thought that the 2.0 manual would be near enough to get
> started. Layers and drawing primitives are pretty much universal,
> things like extend and trim are less intuitive, but I don't think they
> have changed much. The philosophy behind copying/moving seems
> particularly non-intuitive, but easy once understood.
>
> I don't think even the current version is great at importing other
> drawing formats. and 'DXF' seems to be an aspiration rather than a
> standard file format.

I don't have a preference for output file format, as long as it will 
convert to RS-274-D gcode.  I have a simple little project, I need to 
make a small bar, with two screws to attach it to another piece of the 
same material, in this case 1/2" thick alu, carrying a jack screw in the 
other end of it that can be adjusted to serve as a coggedd belt 
tightening jack, with the screw bridging the space between the top of a 
jackshaft frame I made several years ago, but with when mounted using 
the OEM motor mounts, allows the shaft to rise, slackening the belt 
enough to allow it to hop cogs when heavily loaded.  This allows the 
spindle to stop in just a few degrees of rotation while the driving 
pulley, with a 1 HP motor behind it now, to finish burning up the belt, 
long before I can hit the big yellow kill button.  This lathe is a piece 
of junk from the gitgo, but I'm stuck with it. Its been CNC'd with .001" 
acuracy screws for yonks, and I am hopeing that with the latest changes 
I am making to the drive train, I can reduce the frequency of belt 
burnups.  I have enough other machinery that I can do it without the 
drawings, so its not a do it this way or die situation.

But I would like at some point before I fall over, and I'm north of 80 
already, to master some cad program, preferably full 3d so I can maybe 
make some of this stuff and peddle it on ebay because there are a half a 
million copies of this thing been sold to unsuspecting people who didn't 
know any better, like me 20 years ago. :-)

Thanks Joe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Joe]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 07:36:24 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 03 June 2016 07:03:54 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> 
> > On Friday 03 June 2016 10:59:53 Gene Heskett wrote:  
> > > Greetings all;
> > >
> > > Wheezy, i386.
> > >
> > > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use
> > > but it cannot find its help docs.
> > >
> > > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
> > >
> > > Thanks all.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett  
> >
> > http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/Main_Page
> > http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
> >
> > GIYF??? ;-)
> >  
> That, sadly, is for version 2.0, apparently much more capable than
> the version in the repo's which is 1.07, and 6 years old.

It's worth trying to run the current version (2.0.9) on Sid if you can
organise it. It's still a bit buggy, but is improving fast with each
version. Older versions were *much* worse. I also use a Windows version
in emergencies, but that doesn't seem able to produce hard copy, or
even graphics files, so is presumably a slightly older version.

I used to use qcad, from [the community/free version of] which librecad
was forked, and as far as I recall, the basics were very similar. Qcad
still exists, but I believe the writers were not willing to port the
free version to QT4, hence the fork. It took a while for the librecad
people to sort out some really, really gross artefacts of the porting.
Serious use of the zoom required 'great peace of mind'.

I'd have thought that the 2.0 manual would be near enough to get
started. Layers and drawing primitives are pretty much universal,
things like extend and trim are less intuitive, but I don't think they
have changed much. The philosophy behind copying/moving seems
particularly non-intuitive, but easy once understood.

I don't think even the current version is great at importing other
drawing formats. and 'DXF' seems to be an aspiration rather than a
standard file format.

-- 
Joe

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 June 2016 07:03:54 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Friday 03 June 2016 10:59:53 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Wheezy, i386.
> >
> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but
> > it cannot find its help docs.
> >
> > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> >
> > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/Main_Page
> http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual
>
> GIYF??? ;-)
>
That, sadly, is for version 2.0, apparently much more capable than the 
version in the repo's which is 1.07, and 6 years old.
I tried to install freecad as I have some experience with it on *buntu 
10-04 LTS, but that blew up my database and I now have about 70 :amd64 
files installed on an i386 system.  And neither synaptic nor dpkg will 
let me fix it.  See my other msg this morning.

I may have to see if I can upodate to jessie yet. In which case I do it 
as amd64 as I believe the linuxcnc simulation will run on it.  The real 
thing will not, the amd64 latency is horrible.  But the simulator is 
running on an amd64 kernel right now.

root@coyote:/var/cache/apt/archives# uname -a
Linux coyote 3.16.0-0.bpo.4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-ckt25-2~bpo70+1 
(2016-04-12) x86_64 GNU/Linux

And its happy as a clam.

Thank Lisi.
> Lisi


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 June 2016 06:43:23 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 05:59:53AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Wheezy, i386.
> >
> > libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but
> > it cannot find its help docs.
> >
> > I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> >
> > Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
>
> Hmmm. Looking at the package files (e.g. [1]), the manual page is the
> only thing which looks like documentation.
>
> Have you tried "man librecad"?

Now, yes, its about a 6 line manpage that points 
to /usr/share/doc/librecad, which contains a changelog.gz, copyright, 
(std gpl2+) and the last file there is the README.debian and it is a 5 
line file.  Pretty thin in other words.  Their web page mentions 
downloading the librecad-doc file, but no links to it.

> regards
>
> [1] 
>
> -- t


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 03 June 2016 10:59:53 Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
>
> Wheezy, i386.
>
> libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but it
> cannot find its help docs.
>
> I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
>
> Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/Main_Page
http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/LibreCAD_users_Manual

GIYF??? ;-)

Lisi

Re: libreCAD, can't find help docs

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 05:59:53AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 
> Wheezy, i386.
> 
> libreCAD looks like a simple enough cad I could learn how to use but it 
> cannot find its help docs.
> 
> I do not see a separate docs package in the repo's.
> 
> Does anyone have a clue where they might be found?

Hmmm. Looking at the package files (e.g. [1]), the manual page is the
only thing which looks like documentation.

Have you tried "man librecad"?

regards

[1] 

- -- t
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