Re: Social Contract GR's Affect on sarge

2004-05-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Well, there's certainly a lot of hot air. And the situation is rather unfortunate. It seems to me that: * The social contract as amended is unambiguous, and prevents the release of sarge as-is. Therefore: * The Developers must decide whether to waive or amend the social contract. If

Re: _Our_ resolution merely affirms the status quo

2004-06-04 Thread Ian Jackson
Andrew M.A. Cater writes (Re: _Our_ resolution merely affirms the status quo): I posted a comment a long time ago, which might bear repeating (something close to the text below IIRC). The Debian developers changed their policy and fundamental documents when the Sarge release was 90%

Default options (Technical Committee supermajority)

2004-06-09 Thread Ian Jackson
The Condorcet/Cloneproof-SSD GR changed section A.6 of the constitution with some unexpected effects from the new A.6(3): 1. In a vote where there is a supermajority requirement, the ratio of votes in in favour to those against must _exceed_ the specified supermajority ratio. 2. In a vote

Re: What your ballot should look like if you're in favor of releasing sarge

2004-06-30 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Re: What your ballot should look like if you're in favor of releasing sarge): On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:50:58 +1000, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I think that you can reasonably expect this to happen again next time the developers feel they are misled.

Re: Proposed change to Debian constitution

1999-11-01 Thread Ian Jackson
The attached document details a modification written by Zephaniah E. Hull and I, which I am proposing as an amendment to the Debian Constitution. This hopefully solves one or two problems we have identified in Debian, namely closed teams (new-maintainer, ftp maint etc.), stagnation of these

Re: Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying

2003-05-22 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Constitutional amendment: Condorcet/Clone Proof SSD vote tallying): I am formally proposing that we adopt this resolution be adopted, and I am asking for seconds for this resolution; we need at least 5 other developers to second this for this to go anywhere.

Re: Social Contract GR's Affect on sarge

2004-05-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Well, there's certainly a lot of hot air. And the situation is rather unfortunate. It seems to me that: * The social contract as amended is unambiguous, and prevents the release of sarge as-is. Therefore: * The Developers must decide whether to waive or amend the social contract. If

Re: GR Proposal: GFDL statement

2006-01-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Anthony Towns writes (GR Proposal: GFDL statement): Bcc'ed to -project, -legal and -private; followups to -vote please. It's been six months since the social contract changes that forbid non-free documentation went into effect [0], and we're still distributing GFDLed stuff in unstable [1]. I

Re: question for all candidates

2006-02-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt writes (question for all candidates): So, to the question: Should we amend our constitution to reflect how Debian is structured in reality, or should the people doing these tasks now be recognized as delegates of the DPL? What will you do to clarify the situation? I'm

Re: Nomination

2006-02-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Mario Lang writes (Re: Nomination): Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Feb 26, 2006 at 12:02:11AM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote: [something] I find that response utterly inappropriate. It would be inappropriate even during the campaign. I guess we are reaching new heights of

Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project

2006-07-21 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project): In order to bring the constitution in line with current needs and practices of handling assets globally, and allowing the projet to add and remove partner organizations from the set of

Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project

2006-07-21 Thread Ian Jackson
Ian Jackson writes (Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project): they're numbered 1 to 14, below. I mean 1 to 15, sorry. I split one of them up during editing :-). Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact

Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project

2006-07-21 Thread Ian Jackson
MJ Ray writes (Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project): Please will you accept one of those amendments? My proposed amendments 13, 14 and 15 in my message [EMAIL PROTECTED] change this text to: Organisations holding assets in trust for Debian should

Re: Canonical list of proposal text

2006-09-20 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Canonical list of proposal text): Could I ask the proposers to submit formated renditions of the proposal for inclusion on the web page? Eeew, what abuse of power. There is nothing in the constitution that allows the secretary to impose such additional

Re: Filibustering general resolutions

2006-09-20 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Filibustering general resolutions): Due to a loop hole in the constitution, any group of 6 Debian developers can delay any general resolution indefinitely by putting up their own amendment, and every 6 days, making substantiative changes in their amendment

Re: The Sourceless software in the kernel source GR

2006-09-20 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: The Sourceless software in the kernel source GR): I don't really know how best to help with the underlying problem here. Part of the problem is that there are still people who think that we can rely on procedures to protect us absolutely from people. This is obviously

Re: Filibustering general resolutions

2006-09-22 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Re: Filibustering general resolutions): I am not sure this is the model we should be following )I know we are currently not following it at all). Your reading of the wording means that, strictly speaking, there is only a two week (or one week, if the DPL

Resolutions concerning dunc-tank

2006-09-24 Thread Ian Jackson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I hereby propose each of the three draft General Resolutions below. (Each resolution text is between cut marks like these: -8- -8-). I would like to request that: * The Project Leader reduces the minimum discussion period and the voting period to

Re: Call for votes for GR: : Handling source-less firmware in the Linux kernel

2006-10-10 Thread Ian Jackson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Debian Project Secretary writes (Call for votes for GR: : Handling source-less firmware in the Linux kernel): - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- c2d43675-9efa-4809-a4aa-af042b62786e [ 1 ] Choice 1: Release

Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation

2006-10-26 Thread Ian Jackson
Debian Project Secretary writes (Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation): There are three ways policy can be changed: a) The Technical ctte can do so b) A group of developers can do so, via a GR, with a 2:1 super

Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation

2006-10-26 Thread Ian Jackson
Anthony Towns writes (Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation): The process is already unnecessary, Manoj can continue to maintain policy through his membership in the technical committee, This is unfortunately not true. We'd

Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation

2006-10-26 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj, your conflict of interest here is too severe, I think. Would you please formally delegate the interpretation of the constitution with respect to maintenance of policy to someone else ? I don't think you've been grinding your own axe here but, I would like to ask you to do us a favour and

Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation

2006-10-26 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation): On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:28:51 +0100, Ian Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The TC could decide to make a new person the maintainer of the policy package

Re: [GR] DD should be allowed to perform binary-only uploads

2007-02-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Neil McGovern writes (Re: [GR] DD should be allowed to perform binary-only uploads): I'll extract the exact line from the above text for you: ... state the SPI Board's current understanding of who is authorised to act for the project ... In this case, the DPL. Nonsense. If we were to

Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2007: Draft ballot

2007-03-16 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2007: Draft ballot): [ ] Choice 1: Wouter Verhelst ... [ ] Choice A: None Of The Above Would it be possible to use just letters, rather than both letters and numbers ? That will make everything a little less confusing - in

Re: Request for GR: clarifying the license text licensing / freeness issue

2007-04-20 Thread Ian Jackson
Ben Finney writes (Re: Request for GR: clarifying the license text licensing / freeness issue): Ian Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The status quo is quite fine and should be left as it is. This doesn't address the concern that motivated this discussion: that the license texts which have

Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

2007-06-01 Thread Ian Jackson
MJ Ray writes (Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute): There is a lamentable personal dispute between Sven Luther and some other developers. There have been some attempts at reconciliation and various offers, but none have succeeded in ending this dispute. ... 1. Sven Luther

Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

2007-06-01 Thread Ian Jackson
Sven Luther writes (Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute): On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: [stuff] I applaud your proposal, [...] OMG WTF. I'm very sorry everyone. Obviously it must have been a terrible idea. I take it back. Ian

Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

2007-06-01 Thread Ian Jackson
Pierre Habouzit writes (Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute): I understand you're upset by all the fuss, that you're frustrated with the amount of crappy mail it generated. Everybody is. But that does not gives you any right to be an asshole. Well, I thought it was

Re: electing multiple people

2007-10-09 Thread Ian Jackson
Josip Rodin writes (electing multiple people): So, I proposed the following addition to the section A.6. Vote Counting (part of appendix A Standard Resolution Procedure): As I've said in the meeting at Debconf and on debian-project, I think this is the wrong way to do because this voting system

Supermajority requirement off-by-one error, and TC chairmanship

2008-01-31 Thread Ian Jackson
The Technical Committee (and those interested in the libc's resolver behaviour) are having some trouble because of an off-by-one error in the supermajority specification in recent versions of the constitution. This was discussed in http://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2004/05/msg00027.html and

Re: Supermajority requirement off-by-one error, and TC chairmanship

2008-02-24 Thread Ian Jackson
Pierre Habouzit writes (Re: Supermajority requirement off-by-one error, and TC chairmanship): And FWIW, I don't think TC failed to rule because of the majority rules, but just because the issue was technically not easy to solve at that time. The TC would have decided if the supermajority

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-11 Thread Ian Jackson
Anthony Towns writes (Technical committee resolution): I've been thinking for a while [0] it'd be good to do a real revamp of the tech ctte. It's been pretty dysfunctional since forever, there's not much that can be done internally to improve things, and since it's almost entirely

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-11 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): (2) here is again a question of follow-through, and I don't see how your proposal addresses that. The problem again is that someone has to do work, and you can't, in general, find people to do work by doing governance shuffling.

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-11 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): This, however, I find a really interesting argument. I'm not sure it would actually work, but using the tech-ctte as a final arbitrator of Policy decisions and actually using that appeal on a regular basis is something that Manoj and I

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-11 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): So, I could start doing this right now if you'd like. Manoj and I have a handful of Policy bugs that we've tagged dubious and that I was planning on closing at some point. I could just go close them all and refer people to the

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-11 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): That would mean expanding the size of the tech-ctte rather than rotating its membership, correct? Yes. Although we don't have a working removal mechanism either, and that definitely needs to be fixed. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Julien Cristau writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 20:03:57 -0400, Hubert Chathi wrote: OK, the rest of your mail sounds somewhat reasonable, to an outsider who has no experience whatsoever with TC, but ... given that the TC often deals with contentious

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Redoing the new blood thing once again is unlikely to have much of an effect, really. I think we need to find some of the root causes of the malaise that affects this institution, and fix that, rather than rampaging

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Anthony Towns writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Well, if you assume change isn't going to change anything, then, well, I guess you've got your conclusion. That's a completely wrongheaded way of looking at it. We (Manoj, Russ, I, and perhaps others) are not opposed to change. It must

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Josip Rodin writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Instead, I would suggest to do two things - first, institute a better process, one that doesn't so much focus on intricate stalemates (like the present 6.2 does), but one that focuses on how to generally get things done - such as a

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-27 Thread Ian Jackson
OK, here is a go at some personal observations: The main symptom of the TC's brokenness is that it is not making decisions, or not making them fast enough. I haven't heard anyone suggest that the TC is actually making wrong decisions. The causes seem to include: * Some TC members not being

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Josselin Mouette writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): On jeu, 2008-03-27 at 19:06 +, Ian Jackson wrote: The main symptom of the TC's brokenness is that it is not making decisions, or not making them fast enough. I haven't heard anyone suggest that the TC is actually making

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Joey Hess writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Ian Jackson wrote: The causes seem to include: Isn't the main cause that the Technical Committee is well, a committee? (Recall the old saying about many heads and no brain.) That seems to be the core reason for all the problems you

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Joey Hess writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Ian Jackson wrote: I haven't heard anyone suggest that the TC is actually making wrong decisions. Well.. #104101: The TCs resolution that kernel sould have VESA fb compiled in was ignored by its maintainer, who instead waited

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-03-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Loïc Minier writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): On Thu, Mar 27, 2008, Ian Jackson wrote: So I would like to suggest something radical. The decisionmaking processes of the TC should be taken out of the Constitution. Instead, the TC and the DPL should decide between them a Charter

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-04-01 Thread Ian Jackson
Joey Hess writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Ian Jackson wrote: So these two don't seem necessarily to indicate that the decisions were wrong, just that they were ignored. There has indeed been a problem with TC decisions being ignored. The TC is the decision-maker of last

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-04-01 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): As RMS would say on emacs-dev; a decision like this should be made by polling the suers (not a vote -- polling them for opinions _and_ reasons. The TC would have been equally wrong body to make this decision.

Re: Technical committee resolution

2008-04-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Martín Ferrari writes (Re: Technical committee resolution): Ok, I was thinking and speaking about limiting hats in a context of doing it project-wise, not only to the ctte. Sorry for the confusion. The TC is in fact the very worst place to be thinking about limiting the number of other hats of

Re: I hereby resign as secretary

2008-12-31 Thread Ian Jackson
Manoj Srivastava writes (I hereby resign as secretary): I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I'd just like to join all the other people saying that it's sad that we have come to this. As you know I haven't always agreed with your decisions :-) but they have always

Purpose of the Constitution and the Foundation Documents

2009-01-05 Thread Ian Jackson
I agree with much of the criticism of the outgoing Secretary's actions in the Lenny GR vote. But I think we need to look to see how this came to pass. In my view the mistake came when the project voted to entrench the Foundation Documents by requiring a 3:1 supermajority to change them. This

Re: Coming up with a new Oracle (was: Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR)

2009-01-06 Thread Ian Jackson
Raphael Hertzog writes (Re: Coming up with a new Oracle (was: Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR)): On Tue, 06 Jan 2009, Ian Jackson wrote: - The Secretary should explicitly have the power to delay a GR vote by up to (say) two weeks for the purposes

Re: Coming up with a new Oracle (was: Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR)

2009-01-06 Thread Ian Jackson
Clint Adams writes (Re: Coming up with a new Oracle (was: Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR)): On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 10:09:52AM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: The constitution should really be clear so that interpretation is almost never needed. Agreed. We

Re: Purpose of the Constitution and the Foundation Documents

2009-01-06 Thread Ian Jackson
Matthew Vernon writes (Re: Purpose of the Constitution and the Foundation Documents): [Ian Jackson:] - To help voters choose, the following people should be able to require the Secretary to quote on each GR ballot form a URL of their choice, to be used by them for disseminating

Re: Purpose of the Constitution and the Foundation Documents

2009-01-06 Thread Ian Jackson
Ean Schuessler writes (Re: Purpose of the Constitution and the Foundation Documents): [Ian Jackson] wrote: A. De-entrenchment: this is very unlikely to achieve the required supermajority. But it should be on the ballot anyway when we put this mess to a vote after lenny. ... B

Re: Coming up with a new Oracle (was: Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR)

2009-01-09 Thread Ian Jackson
Raphael Hertzog writes (Re: Coming up with a new Oracle (was: Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR)): On Tue, 06 Jan 2009, Ian Jackson wrote: [Raphael:] I agree with the intent but I don't agree with the list of persons you selected. I would restrict

Re: Results of the Lenny release GR

2009-01-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Robert Millan writes (Re: Results of the Lenny release GR): Actually, I accept the outcome of the last vote. I don't like that we made an exception for firmware, but the developers chose to make one so there's no point in arguing about it. On the other hand, it appears that the Secretary,

Re: [Amendment] Reaffirm current requirements for GR sponsoring

2009-03-25 Thread Ian Jackson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lucas Nussbaum writes ([Amendment] Reaffirm current requirements for GR sponsoring): I hope that Bill Allombert will rescind his own amendment. If he chooses to keep it, I might rescind this one instead (we don't need two keep things as is options

Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?

2013-04-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Chris Knadle writes (Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?): The #1 kind of bug reports that become problems are ones that go like this: - bug reporter: writes polite and detailed bug report - maintainer : *cloeses bug* without discussion (usually within

Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?

2013-04-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Ian Jackson writes (Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?): ... If in this situation there is a possibility of the submitter's experience being turned into an improvement in the software, it could arise if the submitter ... can investigate further themselves (perhaps

Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution

2013-04-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Wouter Verhelst writes (Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution): Personally, I think we shouldn't be worried about the FSF's opinion regarding the freeness of our distribution any more than the FSF is worried about our opinion of the GFDL. My starting point is that

Re: [all candidates] on distribution-wide changes and scalability

2013-04-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Lucas Nussbaum writes (Re: [all candidates] on distribution-wide changes and scalability): On 14/03/13 at 17:55 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: - Debian should decide to use a single VCS (say, Git), for all packages, uniform repository structure and work-flow, and give by default

Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?

2013-04-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Chris Knadle writes (Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?): On Tuesday, April 02, 2013 13:53:24, Ian Jackson wrote: The purpose of a bug report is not to help solve the submitter's problem. ... No, I don't agree with this. I understand that this reteoric helps explain

Re: Norman Petry and I (Ossipoff) recommended CSSD, but Schwartz Woodall is a better voting system for Debian

2013-05-09 Thread Ian Jackson
Michael Ossipoff writes (Norman Petry and I (Ossipoff) recommended CSSD, but Schwartz Woodall is a better voting system for Debian): Example 1: Sincere preferences: 99: ABC 2: BAC 100: C(A=B) The A voters rank sincerely, and the B voters defect: 99: AB 2: B 3: C In Debian's

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-19 Thread Ian Jackson
Guillem Jover writes (GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): I think that forcing a decision through the TC at this time was very premature and inappropriate, [...] Perhaps surprisingly, I am not entirely opposed to the idea of a GR for this question. My reasons are quite different

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-19 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: I do think that the proper process is for the TC to make a decision at this stage. The way I read the constitution and the context is that it is the TC's job

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-19 Thread Ian Jackson
Enrico Zini writes (Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): A constructive thing that we may do as a project to address the political side of the matter, is to add to our technical decision a list of things that we wish our upstreams would do to make all our lives easier in the

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-19 Thread Ian Jackson
Holger Levsen writes (Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): care to explain why you think so? Russ has given an answer which I agree with. But more fundamentally for me: if the project as a whole votes to overrule the TC on this question, but by a constitutionally insufficient

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-19 Thread Ian Jackson
Guillem Jover writes (Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:04:17 +, Ian Jackson wrote: My reasons are quite different to yours: to summarise, it seems to me that the init system decision involves political questions as well as technical ones

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Neil McGovern writes (Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): That would certainly seem to be the case, but it would be illogical for a group who is happy to be overridden with a lower requirement to be prevented from doing so! Quite. I think it's perfectly possible for a TC

Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Neil McGovern writes (Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 05:11:17PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: Ian - any thoughts on if your tech-ctte constitution GR could address this? You mean my TC resolution draft. Nope, I meant your supermajorty etc

Re: [Proposal] GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian

2014-01-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Guillem Jover writes ([Proposal] GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian): This is the revised draft GR proposal (please see below); I'm looking for sponsors now. I would consider sponsoring a GR, but like others I would like to see the TC vote first. And, I strongly suggest you trim

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-02-12 Thread Ian Jackson
Wouter Verhelst writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): 2. The initial text of this code of conduct replaces the mailinglist code of conduct at http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct Is this overriding the listmasters then? ... I'll leave it up to the secretary to

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-02-12 Thread Ian Jackson
Ean Schuessler writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): I feel we must see clearly that the CoC and its related ban punishment effectively amounts to a nascent court system for the project. I don't think that's the case and I don't want to see it that way. A comprehensive ban is

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-02-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Sam Hartman writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): I'd be happy to sponsor a resolution that simply adopted the COC as a position statement of the day and asked the appropriate parties to take that as the project's current position. I think the DPL and listmasters can figure out where on

Re: Next DPL election

2014-02-14 Thread Ian Jackson
Lucas Nussbaum writes (Next DPL election): Of course, I don't want to discourage anyone from running in the DPL election. I must admit that, personnally, I find the idea of a rather quiet campaign quite appealing. In general we have managed to keep our DPL elections civilised, respectful and

Re: Debian's custom use of Condorcet and later-no-harm

2014-02-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Debian's custom use of Condorcet and later-no-harm): This change would also fix a different problem that came up during the debate, namely one of the problems with the 2:1 majority required for a TC override. Currently, if we have a general project vote on something on

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-02-27 Thread Ian Jackson
Alexander Wirt writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): - the CoC, can only be an extension to our (lists.d.o) Coc [1], as there are missing the mail/list specific parts. I am also not that happy with having several documents with the name 'Code of Conduct', maybe we can find a

Re: Debian's custom use of Condorcet and later-no-harm

2014-02-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Thue Janus Kristensen writes (Re: Debian's custom use of Condorcet and later-no-harm): I am not completely sure, but I think both ways accomplish the same thing, if you always only use the = criterium. My way seems more flexible though, since you can use it with = or , or 2/3 majority over

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Matthew Vernon writes (Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): I wish to propose the following general resolution, and hereby call for seconds. [...] Seconded. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble?

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): This is probably going to require a 2:1 majority requirement as written. Do you agree that the intent can be achieved by something requiring a 1:1 majority ? If so, can you please say how. If you're going to say

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 11:01:16AM +, Ian Jackson wrote: If you're going to say we need to replace the TC resolution is amended with something like we wish that instead the TC had decided blah, then please

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 10:56:20AM +, Ian Jackson wrote: Matthew Vernon writes (Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): I wish to propose

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 12:35:15PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: This a GR proposal is a position statement about issues of the day (as it says in the Notes and rubric.) It's on the subject of init systems

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 12:49:43PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: Putting the notes and rubric section first might make this clearer for you to see, but it would make the whole GR text much less clear to read

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): There is also this decision of the CTTE: The TC chooses to not pass a resolution at the current time about whether software may require specific init systems. Which doesn't have this GR rider text in it,

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Paul Tagliamonte writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): Sorry, Ian. I overreated. Apology accepted. This whole business is quite difficult for everyone and I too haven't managed to always keep my temper :-/. Thanks, Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 02:50:00PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: That doesn't contradict the GR. If the GR passes we have two resolutions: 11th Feb as modified by GR: sysvinit as default, loose coupling

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Nikolaus Rath writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): I believe the point of contention is that Ian seems to imply that due to the way that the wrote the GR clause, *any* GR related to init would automatically nullify the TC's decision about the default init system

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Tollef Fog Heen writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): ]] Russ Allbery (Dropped DAM and personal Ccs) (Dropped -project) The previous decision does say that it is replaced completely by the text of such a position statement and I do note that the proposed GR

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-03 Thread Ian Jackson
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): Since, in my opinion, this question is all about how the project wants to govern itself and how we want to handle assigning responsibility for work I don't think this is the right way to look at it. We are a

Re: Willing to propose option A

2014-03-04 Thread Ian Jackson
Sam Hartman writes (Willing to propose option A): I prefer option A from the TC ballot to Matthew's proposal. However, I think I prefer no vote to a GR on option A. So, I'm going to hold off to see if Matthew's proposal gets sufficient seconds before doing anything. That is a sensible

Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems

2014-03-04 Thread Ian Jackson
Ansgar Burchardt writes (Re: Proposal - preserve freedom of choice of init systems): So if someone packages a new init system that is not compatible with existing init scripts (e.g. if it does not support /etc/init.d/* as a fallback), then it won't be able to start any service. This point was

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-03-06 Thread Ian Jackson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Wouter Verhelst writes (GR proposal: code of conduct): This is to propose a general resolution under §4.1.5 of the constitution to propose a Debian code of conduct. I second this proposal. Ian. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-03-06 Thread Ian Jackson
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 05:08:10PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: Wouter Verhelst writes (GR proposal: code of conduct): This is to propose a general resolution under §4.1.5 of the constitution to propose a Debian code of conduct. I

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-03-07 Thread Ian Jackson
Cyril Brulebois writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be (2014-03-06): As far as I can tell the problem is that you're not using MIME and the same problem people have when voting using non-ASCII characters. Conveniently published not so long ago:

Re: GR proposal: code of conduct

2014-03-07 Thread Ian Jackson
(Dropped -project) Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: GR proposal: code of conduct): Wouter, are you going to accept Neil's amendment, or should I create 2 options? Wouter, please don't accept Neil's second amendment (the one disallowing modification by the DPL). If you do I shall have to propose

Re: All DPL candidates: level of team management [and 1 more messages]

2014-03-13 Thread Ian Jackson
Lucas Nussbaum writes (Re: All DPL candidates: level of team management): Unfortunately, [the constitution] prevents delegations that document processes, [...] I think that the best solution here is a compromise solution: continue to document the team's tasks, processes and interactions in

Re: Bug#636783: supermajority bug

2014-06-25 Thread Ian Jackson
The fix to the constitutional supermajority bug has been delayed rather. Sorry about that. I have drafted what I think is an implementation of our conclusions here and in the TC. Opinions welcome. Thanks, Ian. - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - Constitutional Amendment: TC

TC process GRs

2014-06-25 Thread Ian Jackson
We have accumulated the following GR proposals, mostly to do with TC matters: * Fix the supermajority bug. Status: draft text on -vote just sent. * Change the committee size to an odd number to minimise use of the casting vote in highly contested situations. Status: under discussion;

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