Steve McIntyre writes ("Re: General Resolution: non-free firmware: results"):
> On Tue, Oct 04, 2022 at 02:34:33PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >Certainly given the narrow margin, we should do what we can to make it
> >easy for those who want to provide an unofficial full
aller (to focus our resources
> and UX efforts), but voted "recommend installer" above "only one
> installer" because of the constitutional concerns.
You make a very good point.
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fficial fully-free installer
to do so. I think we might even want to link to it from the official
page, inverting the way we currently do it.
Ian.
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build everything on unstable, it does not protect testing
from .debs which were built using un-reviewed packages, does it ?
In general maybe we shouldn't be migrating X.deb if its build-info
says it was built using (a version of) Y which isn't in testing.
Ian.
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can talk about it over a beer sometime or something (you and I, I
mean, and yes this is a concrete offer, if circumstances make it
convenient).
I hope that helps makes sense of my position and maybe defuses some of
your unease.
Ian.
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Ian Jackson writes ("Re: Draft ballot"):
> It doesn't count lines from the start, or anything like that.
> So yes, I think it works the way we would hope.
Note that the checking of the "title" is not very good:
# Checking the whole damned line was creatin
ines from the start, or anything like that.
So yes, I think it works the way we would hope.
Thanks,
Ian.
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as been met. So thanks
for your support but we can probably let this rest now.
Ian.
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Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> On Thu, Dec 05, 2019 at 11:59:36AM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Kurt, you can make the HTML for this as follows:
> > * c the HTML from proposal D
> > * Adding the new title
> > *
it makes voting a lot less confusing. I just
wanted to check that this ballot will be interpreted the "obvious"
way.
If it is not supported, will it at least be detected ?
Thanks,
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d E in the ordering.
My own analysis puts G between A and D, but it is hard to say for
sure.
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Guillem Jover writes ("Re: Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> On Thu, 2019-12-05 at 10:53:33 +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > That is an unfortunate effect, yes. I mean, my opinion is (as you
> > know) that G _is_ missing something. But it would be much better i
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Ian Jackson writes ("Proposal to overturn init systems premature GR"):
> Sam has decided to cut short this process. We started this public
> discussion less than a month ago. This is very short.
I still think the timeline is
if its addition is not blocked by Sam's CFV.
Kurt, do you think there are procedural steps that Sam could take or
could have taken, which would enable it to be on the ballot, and still
start the vote this weekend ? If so, are you able to interpret Sam's
mail as taking those steps ?
Ian.
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Jonathan Carter writes ("Re: Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> On 2019/12/04 19:14, Ian Jackson wrote:
> ...
> > 7. Software is not to be considered to be designed by upstream to work
> >exclusively with systemd merely because upstream does not provide,
&
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Ian Jackson writes ("Re: Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> Here is what I think Guillem's plus mine looks like.
>
> NB that I may have reintroduced typos which have been fixed on the
> website version. I hav
while I'm afraid I don't agree with you, I do want to say
that your message, while you did clearly and frankly disagree with me,
was *not* draining for me.
Obviously from my point of view I would prefer it if you had agreed
with me but I found your message very reasonable.
Thanks,
Ian.
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Ian J
Guillem Jover writes ("Re: Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> On Wed, 2019-12-04 at 17:11:49 +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > I do not intend either of these proposals to replace E or D, nor G.
>
> Hmm, I've not checked the actual differences between the comb
Ian Jackson writes ("Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> Thanks for this. No-one else has said anything. Having thought about
> it, I think Guillem's framing would lead me to a conclusion closer to
> Dmitry's E rather than my option D - but either is arguable.
>
&
Ian Jackson writes ("Last minute cominbations G+D and/or G+E"):
> Thanks for this. No-one else has said anything. Having thought about
> it, I think Guillem's framing would lead me to a conclusion closer to
> Dmitry's E rather than my option D - but either is arguable.
>
&
it
is bad for my sleep. So I won't see whatever followups are posted
until mid-morning tomorrow UK time.
Ian.
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and meta-discussing
> whether to meta-discuss options, and so on.
I have a concrete option that I am still working on and can propose in
the next 24-48h, based on Guillem's text.
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Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Proposal to overturn init systems premature GR"):
> On Tue, Dec 03, 2019 at 04:15:02PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > I hereby propose the following General Resolution:
> >
> > Title: A few extra days for init systems GR text drafting
>
Sean Whitton writes ("Re: Proposal to overturn init systems premature GR"):
> On Tue 03 Dec 2019 at 04:15PM +00, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > We can do this with enough time to vote before Christmas, as Russ
> > reasonably points out is desirable. Russ suggested a voting perio
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he
NMU guidelines forbid NMUs when the maintainer has explicitly said
they do not want a particular change. So in practice a maintainer who
does not want an init script in their package can block this and the
only possible recourse is to the TC, which is not suitable and not
effective.
--
Ian Ja
they are not happy with an amendment and take their
name off it. That seems better than taking everyone's name off it
(and replacing the proposer name with the DPL's) purely for technical
reasons particularly since it seems unlikely that seconders are going
to object.
Ian.
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Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Withdrawing Proposal C; Option Ordering; CFV Timing"):
> The reason I didn't reorder it yet, is because it's talked about
> like that. But I guess I can just reorder it on the page, keep the
> letter but change the number.
Yes, please, do that.
Ia
think this is a suboptimal situation and it would be much better
to patch the code to be able to make the choice at runtime. I'm
hoping this kind of thing won't be very common.
Ian.
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Ian Jackson writes ("Re: Proposal: Reaffirm our commitment to support
portability and multiple implementations"):
> I think your proposal would work well as a preamble to many of the
> other options, notably mine and Dmitry's.
I've read the rest of the thread now. I think Adam
rather long. I don't know what to do about this precisely.
I'm not sure whether it would make sense to have two versions of mine
with and without such a preamble ?
Ian.
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which you use yourself has the same problem, at least
etymologically.
But I'm happy to try to avoid this kind of terminology, for the
reasons you give. So, sorry (and if I do it again please point it out
again).
Thanks,
Ian.
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> "the project" is singular.)
I think this is a subjunctive.
Ian.
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For
example, if the amount of work is very small, then a very nugatory
specification, or a very minor improvement, might be sufficient.
I don't want to pull that item out of the list; the list is a set of
things to consider. But maybe it could be reworded.
Thanks,
Ian.
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kaDsn9tVNpOPQAwlDOBAG4/tzC2RIZAFKAd2gr
S3x5kIlqyEL53QTHTWpmLI7py6o5FjyBkOi8fUUPs5NqPR5vPP64EKR1t6T9GsiW
QDceegXTdfg5aElUFveUxutcnjpsPmU2tHj++/Vjms2fP399QuUIrCJ5nCZlpuIw
uFzXx3KafQ==
=Igu8
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Micha Lenk writes ("Re: Please drop/replace the use of the term "diversity""):
> I support avoiding the term diversity in the context of this GR for
> the already mentioned good reasons. However, I would consider
> "alternative init systems" a better phrase than "multiple init
> systems" in this
Simon McVittie writes ("Re: Please drop/replace the use of the term
"diversity""):
> I agree. I have been uncomfortable with this in the context of "init
> diversity" efforts, but I didn't raise it in the past because I couldn't
> articulate clearly why I felt that it was a problem. Since it's
ably not, because the signed part of his email proposals includes
only the two clauses of body text and not the title, which was simply
in the Subject line of his email. And I think that title came in
fact from Sam's option 1, for which Dmitry's text was a proposed
replacement.
Ian.
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Ian Jackson writes ("Re: Proposed amendment to Proposal D"):
> Steve Langasek writes ("Proposed amendment to Proposal D"):
> > I'd like to propose an amendment to your proposal D, to strike the sentence:
> >
>
sal because of this
> mixing of concerns.
Thanks for this feedback. I have received a private email in support
of your comment.
Unless anyone objects by 1400 UTC on Wednesday, I intend to accept
this amendment, assuming that this is procedurally kosher.
Ian.
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Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Proposal: Init Diversity"):
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 02:39:09PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Proposal: Init Diversity"):
> > > I've currently put the title to "Packages should support
> > >
., but
is legitimising.
> If, on the other hand, you find that the text of the proposal, beyond
> its effects, tends to legitimize the practice, that is not my intent.
Maybe that is what I am saying.
Dmitry's proposal is better than this because it is simple. If we are
going to be that cl
ould be kept.
Maybe that person would be able to provide a summary of what they
think it is good for.
Ian.
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omething like
Ineffectually hope to promote init diversity
but I don't think you will like that!
Ian.
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Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Proposal: Init Diversity"):
> I've currently put the title to "Packages should support
> non-systemd". Suggestions welcome.
Dmitry titled his posting "Init Diversity" which I think is
appropriate.
Ian.
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vote vote even my compromise proposal ahead of hartmans1. I'm in
discussions with some strong init diversity advocates about their
motives, to understand that better.
Ian.
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Dmitry Bogatov writes ("Re: Proposal: Init Diversity"):
> Here I formally propose update of my draft and withdraw all previous
> versions. This version contains only grammatical fixes and does not
> change meaning.
Thanks.
I think your option looks finalised to me. Do you want more time for
MsHY94zAjgVB
s04HvhmYnQ==
=82QS
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. If the result of the GR doesn't put me off and I'm not
burned out, I may see if I can propose something to fix it.
Ian.
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Brian Gupta writes ("Re: Proposal: Init Diversity"):
[ quoting Dmitry ]
> Being able to run Debian systems with init systems other than
> systemd continues to be value for the project. Package MUST work
> with pid1 != systemd, unless it was designed
Constitution 5.3:
The Project Leader should attempt to make decisions which are
consistent with the consensus of the opinions of the Developers.
I don't know why you think there is a consensus that this issue needs
to be dealt with promptly. All I can see here is several people
asking for more time
which may last for years.
Ian.
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ome out right.
The changes look easy - add some and and .
If you like I could send you a diff to fix it, in case please point me
to the source.
Regards,
Ian.
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Sam Hartman writes ("Proposal: General Resolution on Init Systems and systemd
Facilities"):
> Timeline: I think that two weeks for discussion of this GR seems about
> right based on what's happened in the last week. The constitution
> allows the DPL to change the discussion period by up to a
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(Kurt, you can skip to "FAO KURT".)
Dmitry Bogatov writes ("Proposal: Init Diversity"):
> Here I formally propose following option, withdrawing any previous
> versions.
...
> Being able to run Debian systems with init systems other than
>
Ian Jackson writes ("Re: Proposal: General Resolution on Init Systems and
systemd Facilities"):
> Of course if the (re)implementation(s) of the (new) interface are
> complete before the time is up, there would be no reason to continue
> to delay, and blessing
camp
because they are both happy with the rest of my proposal, including
requiring "smooth transition for ... users ... of alternative init
systems".
Ian.
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till the original proposal, Ian doesn't seem to
> have accepted Russ's change yet.
Oh, yes. Now done, thanks.
Ian.
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to represent
his views and that of what he believes to be his constituency.
Ian.
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Russ Allbery writes ("Re: [draft] Draft text on Init Systems GR"):
> Ian Jackson writes:
> > Please do formally propose it and I will give my formal blessing to it.
>
> If I understand the process correctly, that looks
Russ Allbery writes ("Re: [draft] Draft text on Init Systems GR"):
> Ian Jackson writes:
> > + (with no substantial effect on systemd installations)
>
> Yes, that looks great to me.
I have folded it in and the result is below.
> Let me know if it would be helpful
of this version, or Sam as the original proposer ? Perhaps
Kurt's life would be made easier if Sam would, at the appropriate
point, indicate his approval. CC'ing secretary@ about this. (Sorry,
Kurt. I think this is my bug in the constitution.)
Ian.
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imely fashion anyways.
One effect of Sam's decision was that I had to quickly make my
proposal formal. Now it is much harder to improve it, if there are
things that could usefully be changed.
Ian.
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ile adopting a feature, in
order to keep a fair few people much happier ?
FTAOD of course what you propose is up to you.
Ian.
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Russ Allbery writes ("Re: [draft] Draft text on Init Systems GR"):
> Ian Jackson writes:
> > Here is my proposal. It is unfortunately quite long. The reason is
> > that I am trying to address the dysfuncdtional patterns I have seen over
> > the past few ye
r other examples.
Hence my suggestion of adding
and no support for running without systemd is available
to Dmitry's text.
Ian.
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implications were. The best
we can hope for is that when we get to this bridge we (1) have some
more experience of peaceful coexistence (2) we can get a good-enough
consensus on something that is tolerable to most people.
Ian.
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re aren't (or
shouldn't be) other fields of our distro where adoption of new
features which require new work by a significant number of people, can
be done without any kind of discussion.
Russ, Sam has mentioned your name. Are you happy with the situation
that is being set up with option B ?
done is to turn
bugs into fights.
Fights are awful. Bugs are fine. We have lots of bugs and we enjoy
fixing them. My proposal is trying to turn the fights back into bugs.
Ian.
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drop the init script, or say they do not
care about non-systemd, we in Debian will still ship the init script
(and apply needed patches if they exist).
What do you think ?
Ian.
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ed.
>
> This sense of deprecated is (I think) en_UK, or at least it reads oddly to
> this en_US reader. I'm mentally translating it as "discouraged," but I
> wonder if something like "are not acceptable within the Debian Project"
> might be closer to the meaning y
be accepted, even if they are or may be of
compromised quality, if the quality/risk is acceptable to the
maintainers of non-default init systems and the surrounding
community.
Ian.
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Sam Hartman writes ("Proposal: General Resolution on Init Systems and systemd
Facilities"):
> Timeline:
Please can we have more time.
Ian.
ticality of the bug would be decided by the same community which is on
> the hook to fix it, which seems fair.
I would be very open to wording change suggestions to address this
issue.
> It's not clear that this is technically feasible, so I'm not sure that it
> makes sense to mandate
cluding maintainers,
Policy Editors, the Release Team, the Technical Committee, and the
Project Leader, to pursue these goals and principles in their work,
and embed them into documents etc. as appropriate.
(This resolution is a statement of opinion under s4.1(5).)
-8<-
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Ian JacksonThe
Holger Levsen writes ("adding more topics to this GR (Re: [draft] Draft text on
Init Systems GR)"):
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 05:31:19PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Issue 4. Hateful stuff on our lists etc.
> >
> > I have tried to capture what kinds of statemen
Sam Hartman writes ("[draft] Draft text on Init Systems GR"):
> This is a draft GR. I hope to be at a point where I could formally
> propose a GR in a week, assuming discussion converges that fast.
I don't think these options really answer the key questions clearly.
I am going to propose a
stemd is the only
> way to bright future" option. It would be curious to see numbers.
We should have something very simple like that on the ballot if there
is anyone who would put it first and wants to put their name to it.
Ian.
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If I
Wouter Verhelst writes ("Re: [draft] Draft text on Init Systems GR"):
> You can formally propose a GR today, and I recommend you do -- otherwise
> we end up discussing things before the discussion period, and then you
> need to sit and wait at least seven days during the *actual* discussion
>
e tag and feed the
results to gpgv (and to work around infelicites in gpgv).
Ian.
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Kurt Roeckx writes ("Re: Failing GPG key (was: Re: Debian Project Leader
election 2019: First call for votes)"):
> [explanations]
...
> [advice]
...
> [offer of help]
Thank you for this helpful and constructive response.
Ian.
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If
some alternative
arrangements, since (i) there is no doubt that Matthias is eligible to
vote (ii) it will be possible to verify the authenticity of Matthias's
vote, albeit by using an ad-hoc or alternative arrangement.
Ian.
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rticulating to ourselves and our users what
> that value is.
I agree that we need to do more promotion of this aspect of Debian's
value.
Ian.
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m, and your git branch
is magically transformed into a uniform immediately-buildable view
for everyone who consumes it via `dgit clone'.
So real answer is: everyone should consider `dgit push' and most
people should be using it. It should be recommended in policy.
Ian.
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ld get the kind of timely service I can provide for `oh this is a
5 min job' type of task, rather than what I can provide for `this
might take half an hour or it might take two hours'.
Ian.
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ally any problem - see my blog
posting here:
git signed commits are a bad idea
https://diziet.dreamwidth.org/515.html
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the cloud". Ie on someone else's computer, in this case
hopefully Debian's computer like, say, Salsa.
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In article <20190320092906.j5u47e6a3kjo3...@xanadu.blop.info>,
Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> An unofficial motto for Debian (unofficial because it is not part of our
> foundation documents) is "the universal Operating System".
...
> 1) So, if you were asked to write a Social Contract paragraph about
Chris Lamb writes ("Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?"):
> [stuff]
Thanks. As is conventional I'll reply mostly to the bit I disagree
with :-).
> I agree that people can still disagree but I am just aiming for the
> platonic ideal where positions are not swayed at all by
ee with you, particularly key
decisionmakers and stakeholders, can still say so, and don't have to
do as you say. I think if you make that clear you should avoid
getting flames, as opposed to reasoned criticism.
Ian.
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Chris Lamb writes ("Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements"):
> [lots of things]
Thank you, Chris, for this absolutely excellent reply.
Ian.
Steve Langasek writes ("Re: Question for DPL candidates: Teetotaler outreach"):
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 07:31:44PM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> > However, moderating the atmosphere so that non-drinkers do not
> > feel like they are unwelcome, perhaps by curbing excess in some of
> > the drinkers,
Mehdi Dogguy writes ("Re: Q to the candidates: GPLv2 system library exception"):
> On 29/03/2017 20:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > Do you think this situation needs addressing? What do you propose do
> > about it? Do you think the way the ZFS situation was resolved could
> > be an example?
>
> I
Enrico Zini writes ("Re: Q to both candidates: preventing burnout by other
contributors"):
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 07:19:31PM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> > However, I still think that by continually and reliably calling it out
> > in general, even in cases where it is unlikely to worsen, means
Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Q to both candidates: preventing burnout by other
contributors"):
> [analysis of structural problem with toxic behaviours]
I agree entirely with your analysis.
> In Debian, we have very few tools short of outright explusion from the
> project, which obviously everyone
Would you look favourably on unsolicited requests from a contributor,
to have limited powers delegated to them to deal with a matter that
contributor wants to try to see fixed ?
Ian.
--
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an ad
security
problems, and thanks the Debian Security Team, and the Stable and LTS
teams, for their hard work"
Or something.
Ian.
--
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
lly implement some more formal policy,
but I don't think we should write that down in the SC where it is hard
to change.
Ian.
--
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private addres
e something from Anthony Towns (or someone else
pro-transparency). I don't really understand their views clearly
enough to help start drafting such a thing.
Thanks,
Ian.
--
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvz
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