date:20110306


Hi all,

I just perceived my LibreOffice version's icons are actually 26px large 
(and different from this [1] screenshoot), so I made a 26px version 
without shadow:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-26px.svg

And a version with the same 1px bottom from the other icons of the toolbar:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-25px-shadow.svg

Here you can see a comparison between the three proposals:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-comparison.png

What's your opinions?

See you, guys!
~Paulo

[1] - 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:2011-02-15_LibreOfficeInitialIcons_ToolbarIssue.png


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Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo

2011-03-06 Thread Bernhard Dippold

Hi all,

just short...

Christoph Noack schrieb:

Hi Nik, hi Rob, Jaron, Johannes, Bernhard, ... :-)

Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 04:34 +1100 schrieb Nik:

[...]
I'm not trying to be nasty, but this typeface looks genuinely unfinished.
I think we would do ourselves a huge favour by locating a better font
for the next version of the logo.
What do you think? change or stay? and if change, do you or your
colleagues know of any good open-source fonts?

You are right Nik, the font is indeed unfinished (e.g. the Unicode
coverage)- and development won't continue as far as I know. But in the
given situation some months ago, the font had some real advantages ...
for example: having a modern but neutral look.

[...]

I've used the font comparison that had been done by the OOo Artwork Team
[2]. And since Bernhard had substantial impact in creating the
comparison, I'd like to ask him for his experience whether there is
something better. Bernhard?

*If* the font had been finalized, it had been chosen for the OOo logo
accompanying font too.

But due to it's shortcomings (especially lack of certain characters and
symbols) we chose the M+ P1 font
(http://mplus-fonts.sourceforge.jp/mplus-outline-fonts/design/index-en.html#prop)
for text to be presented in combination with the (proprietary) logo.

What I personally really like to see in the font are round dots at every
place: "i", "!", ":", "ü" and so on.

We searched hard for a high quality open source font (as with the given
OOo logo the need was even higher than here), but didn't find a better one.

It is already more than 6 weeks ago that Hillar Liiv worked on improving
the Vegur font:

I'm quite ashamed, that I didn't reply to him ...

I know ... It's very late to be talking about such things, but
discussion in this vein might make for a better future logo.

I think it's a two-step approach:

First improve the existing logo by nearly invisible changes leading to
an improved overall impression.

Then work on the community branding for a new logo (with new font, if we
find one).

I think we slowly start to target topics related to a community branding
- not only applying tiny improvements concerning the current one. What
are your thoughts here? Thinking about some major improvements is fine,
but the timing is important as well ...

Personally, I think that some improvements by Johannes should make it
into the current logo for (maybe?) the minor release of LibreOffice.

I could even imagine the next available micro release...

And
from what I can see, there is consensus that most of the tiny
improvements (like you said Nik - and also to me: except the
f-i-connection) greatly improve the general visual impression.

So perhaps with the bent f-bow, but with space between f-bar and i?

As far as I remember, the few poll comments tended towards the present
logo rather than towards the logo with ligature.

It's not easy to define likes and dislikes for the tiny modifications,
if the main difference is the stroke between "f" and "i"...

But even if we agree on improving the distances between the single
characters (kerning) only, the necessarily modified distances between

"f", "f" and "i" might cause some kind of ligature...

Perhaps we should step back again (I don't like this direction very
much, but if it leads to consensus, it's worthwhile) and improve kerning
first.

When we got our optimum version (broader as today or smaller as Nik
proposed), we should add ligatures on this pre-final version.

Does this sound reasonable to you Joey (as foreman in this topic) and
all the others?

Best regards

Bernhard

Cheers,
Christoph

[1]
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/fontastic-how-libreoffice-got-its-font.html

[2]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draft&oldid=181144#Fonts

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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Icons


Hi Bernhard, all.

Firstly, thank you for your feedback!

On 06-03-2011 19:53, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

Hi Paulo, all,

thanks for keeping this running!
[...]
We discussed the shadow during the first few iterations and came to 
the conclusion not to use it.

Yeah, I think I actually missed this part. I'm sorry about that.

I don't remember the reason exactly, but I think that some OS add 
their own shadow to the icons on the desktop? And we didn't want to 
waste precious pixel...
Since the icons are just for toolbar usage and they don't go to desktop, 
the shadow problem doesn't a actual problem. Do I got it correctly? I 
based mainly in the Tango icons along the application main toolbar, some 
of them have shadow, others not.



[...]
So if I understand it correctly, we need 24x24 px icons already 
including one empty pixel at every side.


This might be dependent on operating system and distribution, 
otherwise I don't know why Galaxy mentions 26x26, but perhaps Thorsten 
can enlighten us
I got it. Well, if we take the shadows off, we will decrease the icons 
size by 2 pixels. Since they are 26px (24+2px) large, this action makes 
them 24px (22+2px) large. Then they will have 1px empty around, the 
correctly size. We'll not need remake them. :-)


But I'm not sure if the other Tango icons on the screenshoot included in 
this page 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons#Feedback_and_Issues 
actually is 22+2px large... When I was editing these icons, I used the 
other Tango icons as base, and I'm almost sure they are actually 26px 
large (24+2px) large.


A question just now came to me: I didn't go too deep in this subtitle, 
so is it actually defined if we'll change to Galaxy icons?


See you!
~Paulo
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

I like very much the idea... Maybe we could do something more "artistic" 
but still neutral for the background... trying to avoid the "Glass look" 
of MS Office, of course. I think we should be absolutely creative on 
changing the application background! :-D It could be a good "visual" 
differential to LibreOffice and have a strong appeal to upcoming users.


Lets stay thinking about it... :-D
~Paulo

On 05-03-2011 14:59, Andrew wrote:

On 05/03/11 11:44, Sébastien Le Ray wrote:

Le Fri, 4 Mar 2011 21:36:19 +,
Daniel Merker  a écrit :


Hi,

Just a thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the background be
the primary color of that application. For example, the Writer would
have a blue tinted background with a shadow (I like the shadow on all
sides), and Impress would have an organge tinted background with the
same shadow around the slide. This should help tie in the color theme
and help build on a general motif.

-Daniel Merker


Hi,

The background color of the application can already be customized
through preferences...

regards

Sébastien


I like the suggestion of changing the background colour with application
(i.e. blue for writer) and having that with the 'four border' shadow.

Like this - http://ubuntuone.com/p/gEg/




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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Icons

2011-03-06 Thread Bernhard Dippold


Hi Paulo, all,

thanks for keeping this running!

Paulo José schrieb:

Hi all!

I have been away from these discussions, just reading and not
participating, but here is one more contribution.

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons.svg

These are the Tango-inspired version of the Mimetype icons for toolbar
usage. I'd like to know your opinion/criticism/suggestions.. :-)


We discussed the shadow during the first few iterations and came to the 
conclusion not to use it.


I don't remember the reason exactly, but I think that some OS add their 
own shadow to the icons on the desktop? And we didn't want to waste 
precious pixel...


About size, they are 24px + 2px (1px empty border) = 26px. I don't know
if it's the only needed size... Can anyone talk more about it? And also,
are more icons needed?


What I read from Thorsten is in the mail you attached:


[...]
On 10-02-2011 05:20, Christoph Noack wrote:

[...]
Am Donnerstag, den 10.02.2011, 08:15 +0100 schrieb Thorsten Behrens:

Christoph Noack wrote:

But, here comes the question to a new toto item - Thorsten: Kendy
mentioned yesterday that some icons might be missing. Is it right that
we lack toolbar icons for (e.g.) the File-New-Dropdown? If yes, what
size is required here?


Nope, we have those.

Phew. :-)


According to the Galaxy icon set page, it should be 26x26 - can you
confirm?

http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html


Heh, no friggin' idea - but yeah, that page says: small size (16 x
16 pixel), large size (26 x 26 pixel), high contrast version of all
icons. ;)

[...]
Large: 48×48
Medium: 32x32
Small: 22×22 pixels - blow up to 24×24 by adding a 1 pixel
empty space on all sides
Extra Small: 16×16 pixels


So if I understand it correctly, we need 24x24 px icons already 
including one empty pixel at every side.


This might be dependent on operating system and distribution, otherwise 
I don't know why Galaxy mentions 26x26, but perhaps Thorsten can 
enlighten us


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for "Saving Information" icons on Status Bar


Replying quickly (Today my Father came to visit me in my current city! :-D):

Thank you for the feedback! Perfectly, your suggestion to increase 
transparency makes the "status info" goal seems clear to this icon. Do 
you think we could incorporate this on the original icons or the 
transparency is "on the fly" by software?


~Paulo

On 06-03-2011 18:27, Christoph Noack wrote:

Hi Paulo!

Before I start - wow, it's always amazing how quick you can come up with
such stuff (I didn't even invested the time to look on your other icons,
I'm totally curious...).

Am Sonntag, den 06.03.2011, 15:04 -0300 schrieb Paulo José:
...

Yeah, I tried your and Christoph's suggestions and the result seems to
be actually better:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Status-bar-icons-saved-file-14x11px.svg
The Style 1 and 2 have the same size of "Page Zoom" icons (9px large)
and each one have a gradient style (the Style 2 matching the Page Zoom
icon's gradient). The Style 3 and 4 are 1px larger (10px large), the
exactly same size of my previous proposal.

Mmh, from the visual point-of-view, I prefer the 10px large icons - it
just looks more balanced with the '*' inside. And the new outline looks
great as well ...

Concerning the differences to the other icons - some people may call me
"Mr. Consistency", but in this case it might be okay to be different
(having in mind that we finally will end up in revamping the whole
interface). The difference is "document" (your icon) and "page" (the
existing icons in the status bar).

One little (last) thing - when I looked at the icons, I noticed that the
behavior of the items in the status bar are different. To be honest, the
status bar is no status bar (only), since there are control elements
like the zoom slider etc. Therefore, I wanted to better separate the
"active" and the "inactive" items - along with some better visibility of
"information is important" (document unchanged) and it is important
(document changed). Thus, I slightly increased the transparency in the
former case:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/o1JxptFPXGwS8MdlFm5rOA?feat=directlink

Paulo - in this case I'd like as you in the first place. Would this be
still okay to you? Feel free to answer straightforward ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Hi, interested in contribution to libreoffic design team,


Be welcome Jack! I hope you enjoy a lot to stay with us! :D
I'd like to know more about your sound experiences. Can you talk more 
about it? Maybe it's a unexplored field to play with in LibreOffice.

~Paulo

On 06-03-2011 03:15, Jack M wrote:

Hello,Let me introduce myself for starters,My name is Jack Majlinger and I am a 
17 year old Diesel Mechanicwith a strong hobby interest in computers.When I 
heard about libreofice, seeing it was in its infancy i thoughtit would be a 
great project to get involved in.
I can help provide graphics, sound (if needed) and variousother things to help 
improve libre office. I am looking forwardto being an active member and this 
mailing list is a great ideaand I'd love to sign up.
RegardsJack Majlinger   


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

Hi Nik, Ricardo, all!

Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 03:45 +1100 schrieb Nik:
> Hi Ricardo, all,
> 
> On 3/7/2011 2:41 AM, RGB ES wrote:
> > Agree: I prefer no shadow at all, specially if it means more system
> > resourced used to no real usability gain.

[...]

> Must be a subjective thing then.
> Once you add that background-image though, you'll be mighty sorry you 
> don't have a drop shadow to separate your document from that busy 
> background image.
> Which would be a usability gain. And even if it doesn't there's that 
> precious fleeting thing called User Experience.
> I for one, love drop shadows on my documents, makes it easier to focus.
> 
> I'd propose having a drop shadow by default and having the option to 
> turn it off, or turn it "flat" (like it is currently).
> I know; it's easy to say, but hard to implement. Sorry.

Drop shadows are one way of telling the user which element currently has
the focus. Some time ago, I've presented an idea how to present the
document vs. the notes in Writer. Please have a look at the first two
pictures (although it was based on the rather simple shadow in Writer):
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2#Mockups_and_Screenshots

Concerning the - "turn it off" option. For my point-of-view, wouldn't it
be better to go with a design which a) performs well (in terms of
speed), and b) is acceptable by the majority of users. We already have
too many options and (at the moment) no way of presenting them somehow
prioritized ... like Firefox.

[...]
> And the shadow should scale with the zoom-level, when have you ever seen 
> a thumbnail-size paper cast shadow twice its size in all four directions?
> At a football stadium, I'm guessing =)
> That will conveniently address the 
> "proximity-to-neighbouring-pages-issue" too maybe?

Mmh, this is a good point - we've discussed that some time ago in the
OOo UX team. I think the major point is, that the "document paper" does
not change its height in comparison to the background. Therefore most of
the systems (although having only a right-bottom drop shadow) don't
change the size of the shadow when the content of the document is
zoomed. For example, the shadow size is kept if the user zooms in - the
shadow doesn't convey valuable information in this case.

Consequently, and this what I think you had in mind as well, a shadow
should be defined in a certain size for "100%", and:
  * if the document is zoomed in, then the shadow should grow only
slightly
  * if the document is zoomed out, then the shadow should decrease
according to the document zoom level (but keeping a min size of
e.g. 1 ... 2 px)

That's the good thing when it comes to usability ... it's usually never
simple ;-)

> I'll actually chip in a mock-up in the next few days if time allows.
> Maybe the Motif-Design task can tie into this and become the subtle 
> default bg-image?

Cool, thanks! And although some people might think I am stressing that a
bit too much ... Johannes once put together some ideas:
http://www.johannes-eva.net/2009-07-new-application-background-ooo

And some things I still have in mind ...

Nik, you mentioned the "light comes from above" issue (I deleted this
section in this mail, so sorry for the late comment) - of course this is
correct, but in one special (but most important) case - talking about
Writer - we have continuous document content spread over different
pages. So, if the content is scrolled, then all the pages show different
lighting and it behaves a bit like a passing train in the night (bright,
dark, bright, dar, ...). For all other cases (like icons, Impress, ...)
the top-lighting will work. But for Writer, applying a constant shadow
across the page is more than okay.

There has been a proposal to use the background to differentiate between
the different document types. This might be tricky, since even the
"main" applications in LibreOffice sometimes miss an application
background. Consequently, I wouldn't make this a "key visual" (by the
way, Microsoft Office 2010 has solved this elegantly). Furthermore,
color applied on a large surface like this one will distract ...

And, since we talk about the application background. Please be aware
that these are usually defined by the operating system. If we change it,
then we "miss" to behave according platform requirements. And usually,
this is against usability ... so this should only be changed if its a
real (perceived) benefit.

Cheers,
Christoph

> > 2011/3/6 Rick Hansson:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I don't see any reason for having borders or shades at all. A plain
> >> background is fine. Keep it simple. I made a quick poll among friends and
> >> they all have different ideas, so this would be great if it could be
> >> optional. Also, since many like gradient backgrounds, why not make that
> >> optional as well? I've uploaded some drafts:
> >>
> >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad1.jpg
> >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/F

Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]


Hi Johannes!

Yeah, you're right, we're not talking on the same thing. What I mean by 
kerning is correct pixel anti-alialing artifacts, when a letter becomes 
blurry and you can use a sharpening filter to sharp the edges 
(correcting the blurry). But none sharpening filter changes the shape or 
move objects. I actually didn't know it's called kerning too. Thank you 
for show me that! :-)


By the way, I need to say your work is a actual improvement! I don't 
know yet if I'm updated to your last proposals, but I'll find it and 
give you feedback soon.


See you,
~Paulo

On 02-03-2011 07:00, Johannes Bausch wrote:

Hey Paulo,

2011/3/1 Paulo José Amaro

Sadly I can't see any image from the imageshack server. Could you add to
the
wiki? I'm actually curious about your friend's proposal.


http://tinyurl.com/48rgtw

I guess that's something InDesign does with OpenType Pro fonts (Minion
etc.).



And with "sharpening filter" I mean this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsharp_masking or another GIMP plugin to
sharp
image's edges (IMO, the best is the Inverse Diffusion of GIMP's GMIC
plugin). They can be used to correct some kerning problems on the final
generated bitmaps.


Ah okay. But are we talking about the same "kerning"? How can a sharpening
filter move letters about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning
Maybe I just don't get it, sorry ^^.

To the rest: Can we have a vote on the ligatures somehow? Or are there
further suggestions?

Thanks,
Joey



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Hi, interested in contribution to libreoffic design team,

Hi Jack!

A warm welcome from my side ... I don't remember if I had to moderate
your mail (so that it appears on the mailing list), so could you please
check whether you are subscribed? Some information how to do that is
here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design

So again - welcome to this team. I hope you'll find something of
interest within our discussions. Simply join :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Sonntag, den 06.03.2011, 16:15 +1000 schrieb Jack M:
> Hello,Let me introduce myself for starters,My name is Jack Majlinger and I am 
> a 17 year old Diesel Mechanicwith a strong hobby interest in computers.When I 
> heard about libreofice, seeing it was in its infancy i thoughtit would be a 
> great project to get involved in.
> I can help provide graphics, sound (if needed) and variousother things to 
> help improve libre office. I am looking forwardto being an active member and 
> this mailing list is a great ideaand I'd love to sign up.
> RegardsJack Majlinger   



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Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo

Hi Nik, hi Rob, Jaron, Johannes, Bernhard, ... :-)

Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 04:34 +1100 schrieb Nik:
[...]
> I'd like to know where you stand on the typeface in general? do you 
> think it works?

Good question!

[...]

> But most of this is too nitpicky, no font is perfect (except HELVETICA =).

;-)

> I'm not trying to be nasty, but this typeface looks genuinely unfinished.
> I think we would do ourselves a huge favour by locating a better font 
> for the next version of the logo.
> What do you think? change or stay? and if change, do you or your 
> colleagues know of any good open-source fonts?

You are right Nik, the font is indeed unfinished (e.g. the Unicode
coverage)- and development won't continue as far as I know. But in the
given situation some months ago, the font had some real advantages ...
for example: having a modern but neutral look.

On of the things I've never mentioned in the blog posting [1] was the
importance of "neutrality", so that there is a viable chance to replace
the font by something better (if there is any alternative) without
"trashing" all the material we've created so far. Of course, the new
font shouldn't be that different ;-)

I've used the font comparison that had been done by the OOo Artwork Team
[2]. And since Bernhard had substantial impact in creating the
comparison, I'd like to ask him for his experience whether there is
something better. Bernhard?

> I know ... It's very late to be talking about such things, but 
> discussion in this vein might make for a better future logo.

I think we slowly start to target topics related to a community branding
- not only applying tiny improvements concerning the current one. What
are your thoughts here? Thinking about some major improvements is fine,
but the timing is important as well ...

Personally, I think that some improvements by Johannes should make it
into the current logo for (maybe?) the minor release of LibreOffice. And
from what I can see, there is consensus that most of the tiny
improvements (like you said Nik - and also to me: except the
f-i-connection) greatly improve the general visual impression.

Cheers,
Christoph

[1]
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/fontastic-how-libreoffice-got-its-font.html

[2]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draft&oldid=181144#Fonts


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for "Saving Information" icons on Status Bar

Hi Paulo!

Before I start - wow, it's always amazing how quick you can come up with
such stuff (I didn't even invested the time to look on your other icons,
I'm totally curious...).

Am Sonntag, den 06.03.2011, 15:04 -0300 schrieb Paulo José:
...
> Yeah, I tried your and Christoph's suggestions and the result seems to 
> be actually better:
> 
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Status-bar-icons-saved-file-14x11px.svg
>  

> The Style 1 and 2 have the same size of "Page Zoom" icons (9px large) 
> and each one have a gradient style (the Style 2 matching the Page Zoom 
> icon's gradient). The Style 3 and 4 are 1px larger (10px large), the 
> exactly same size of my previous proposal.

Mmh, from the visual point-of-view, I prefer the 10px large icons - it
just looks more balanced with the '*' inside. And the new outline looks
great as well ...

Concerning the differences to the other icons - some people may call me
"Mr. Consistency", but in this case it might be okay to be different
(having in mind that we finally will end up in revamping the whole
interface). The difference is "document" (your icon) and "page" (the
existing icons in the status bar).

One little (last) thing - when I looked at the icons, I noticed that the
behavior of the items in the status bar are different. To be honest, the
status bar is no status bar (only), since there are control elements
like the zoom slider etc. Therefore, I wanted to better separate the
"active" and the "inactive" items - along with some better visibility of
"information is important" (document unchanged) and it is important
(document changed). Thus, I slightly increased the transparency in the
former case:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/o1JxptFPXGwS8MdlFm5rOA?feat=directlink

Paulo - in this case I'd like as you in the first place. Would this be
still okay to you? Feel free to answer straightforward ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft

Hi Nik,

argh, am I late? Or should I ask: am I too late? :-)

Thanks a lot for the summary and making up the wiki page ... I felt free
to add the brainstorming proposals I've talked about yesterday. Thus,
I'm very sorry for the "late submission".

I wasn't able to bring up something really new within the last hours,
but I tried to clean up my available stuff to - at least - present it to
you. And I felt free to add two things: a triangle pattern that might
serve as a "motif", and a large scale motif (is there a better
description in English) that serves different document types. Combine
the two, and voilà ;-)

Here you go:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif#Brainstorming

Okay, and a small hint for those who want to start to design (see Nik's
mail below) in Inkscape - there is an excellent "Lore Ipsum Generator"
built in.

And to all - thanks for your excellent input!

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 03:18 +1100 schrieb Nik:
> Hullo Design!
> 
> It's open-season on the Motif. *We have hit the week-long 
> (business-week) Design phase!*
> So get your preferred tool of awesome-vector-creation out, whether that 
> is Inkscape, Illustrator or even pencil+paper (not so scalable =).
> 
> Here is a summary of the ideas resulting from the brainstorming phase;
> 
> * History
> * Revival
> * People / Community
> * Imagination / Creativity
> * Possibility
> * Freedom
> * Openness
> * Security
> * Individuality
> * Professionalism
> * Others are listed in more general descriptions on the motif page
> 
> 
> Here is what our branding specifies;
> 
> * Clean
> * Balanced
> * Friendly
> 
> 
> Recommended visual tools;
> 
> * Colour
> * Pattern
> * Shape
> * (I would add: texture)
> 
> 
> So we have ideas and concepts, *It's time to Design!*
> 
> * Pick a concept you'd like to convey and, while adhering to the
>   branding, create a first draft of your motif.
> * Upload it to the Wiki page
>   (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) under the new
>   "Motif proposals" section (bottom of page).
> * Add a preview image (jpeg/gif/png) if possible (svg preview is
>   quite bad).
> * Explain what you were aiming to do with the Design, or more
>   importantly, what it communicates.
> 
> * If possible, please provide a preview of how the Design would look
>   in context: it should be the same context to keep everything
>   consistent.*
>   So the context should be: An A4-size letterhead for LibreOffice*
>   (210mmx297mm). This is so you don't have to worry about creating
>   content.
> 
> 
> And you can add this letterhead-info to make your life easier;
> Name Surnameson
> 123 Roadly drive, Suburbia
> SinCity, Countria. 54321
> Tel: 9876 54321 Fax: 9876 54322
> Email: name.surname...@generic-co.com
> 
> Just add the logo somewhere on the letterhead too and your Design motif 
> somewhere on the page.
> You can fill the page with Lorem Ipsum dummy-text 
> (http://lipsum.lipsum.com/)  to add realism.
> 
> Head over to this page for more information: 
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif
> ...
> 
> 
> On 3/6/2011 10:32 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
> > Hi Nik!
> >
> > Am Samstag, den 05.03.2011, 03:33 +1100 schrieb Nik:
> >> Hi Design!
> >>
> >> 2 more days to go until the "brainstorming" of motif ideas is over and
> >> we begin design proposals (on Monday).
> >> Head over to this page for more information;
> >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif
> > I still try to figure out how to catch up with some of the older
> > tasks ... if I won't manage that (well), I'll simply upload what I have
> > tomorrow evening (my time).
> >
> >> On 2/28/2011 10:45 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
> > ...
> >>> Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 22:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> > ...
> >>> http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements.html
> >> I'm glad to include these on the page, but we should expect that these
> >> previous elements will have no significant bearing on the Motif
> >> yet-to-be-designed.
> >> I don't like carrying-over elements just because they have been used, I
> >> think it would be better to craft new elements from scratch with clear
> >> purpose+intentions+context from the beginning.
> > True, but I hope that gives an impression what we've used so far - maybe
> > it is inspiring - maybe not :-) I still like it somehow, since the
> > show-to-the-upper-right triangle (whether it is varied in size, color,
> > position) is still a strong link to the Document Symbol.
> Hi Christoph,
> I think the triangle is great, but to continue to use it in exactly the 
> same way as in the logo, I think that would be a mistake.
> It seems too obvious and repetitive (not in a consistent way, but in a 
> tiring way) to use it in many places.
> And adding more clipped top-right corners and floating triangles will 
> reduce the impact of th

Re: [libreoffice-design] Weak icons

2011-03-06 Thread Paweł K .

Welcome again.
I installed LibreOffice 3.3.1 some time ago. I noticed that all of new file
type icons are too much bolded and they aren't smoothed as other file type
icons (eg. PDF, BMP etc.). For this reason LibO file type icons are more
visible than other.

Screenshot with comparision: http://img52.imageshack.us/i/liboicon.jpg/

Greetings

W dniu 4 lutego 2011 16:53 użytkownik Paweł K. napisał:

> PS: How can I create (translate from english) polish version of LibreOffice
> site?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/international-sites/
>
> W dniu 4 lutego 2011 16:39 użytkownik Paweł K. 
> napisał:
>
> Hi,
>> I think that file type icons sent to me by you will be great.
>>
>> Interface graphics (small toolbar icons in fe. Writer) for me is also (for
>> today) bad - this icons have too much colors and, some of them, too many
>> detail (eg. "Paste", "Font color"). This icons should be clear to understand
>> and simple in design. Some of them have "cold" colors and others have more
>> colors (eg. "Increase indent" [mainly white and dark blue] and "Font color"
>> [blue and brown]) - they are diffrent in colors, I don't like it. *For me
>> all of this icons should be similar in colors and simplicity*.
>> It's my opinion.
>> Greetings
>>
>> 2011/2/3 Ivan M. 
>>
>> Hi Pawel,
>>>
>>> 2011/2/3 Paweł K. :
>>> > I am writing about file type icons (fe. DOC, DOCX, ODT) and also about
>>> icons
>>> > in LibreOffice toolbars (fe. button "Save", "Bold"). As I said, I like
>>> icons
>>> > from OpenOffice 3.2.1.
>>> > Thanks for fast reply and sorry for my bad English.
>>>
>>> Thanks for clarifying that - Christoph was right (he usually is ;P)
>>>
>>> We had lots of negative feedback on the OOo mailing lists about 3.2.1
>>> icons (mainly because they lacked color) - it was quite a significant
>>> issue and it made lots of users angry. One of the first things LibO
>>> did was to revert the icons to the pre-3.2.1 style before new icons
>>> could be implemented. We are now (almost) ready with those new icons,
>>> and you can see them on this image:
>>>
>>> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9MZR46ZEuS8/TURcR5CLQPI/AuA/6gLZ8h2RS9Y/s1600/RevisedIcons128px.png
>>> For me they offer the best of both worlds: an improved design and much
>>> needed color. What do you think?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ivan.
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for "Saving Information" icons on Status Bar


Hi Jaron!

On 06-03-2011 10:49, Jaron Kuppers wrote:

Hi Paulo, Christoph,

Wow... I can't believe its been so long.  This thread took quite the nap.

I also like "Style 1" best, top right corner, and 14x11.  Although the
orange seems a bit loud.  I guess that is acceptable since it is likely the
most appropriate color from our arsenal.  It seems fine in Christoph's
example.

Thank you!

You may consider matching the gradient for the outline of the page
in your icon to match the page icons in the zoom toolbar if they are going
to be located so close.  It may also give the icon a little more attention.
Yeah, I tried your and Christoph's suggestions and the result seems to 
be actually better:


http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Status-bar-icons-saved-file-14x11px.svg 
(force reload if it doesn't work)


The Style 1 and 2 have the same size of "Page Zoom" icons (9px large) 
and each one have a gradient style (the Style 2 matching the Page Zoom 
icon's gradient). The Style 3 and 4 are 1px larger (10px large), the 
exactly same size of my previous proposal.


See you guys!
~Paulo

--
Paulo José O. Amaro
Computer Science Student
Federal University of São João del-Rei
WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior
Blogger / casatwain.com

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft


AWESOE! >=D
-Nik


On 3/6/2011 3:33 AM, Jaron Kuppers wrote:
Wow Nik, thank you so much!  That was extremely helpful.  My brain is 
in super mode now thinking of design motifs!


Cheers,
Jaron




On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Nik > wrote:


Whoops, forgot to reply to Design-list instead of just to Jaron...



 Original Message 
Subject:Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re:
[libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Date:   Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:32:13 +1100
From:   Nik mailto:n...@tdf.nikashsingh.com>>
To: Jaron Kuppers mailto:jaronba...@gmail.com>>



Hi Jaron,


On 3/5/2011 6:37 AM, Jaron Kuppers wrote:

Hi Nik,

I would love to be involved but unfortunately I still feel
that I don't fully understand what is desired in the motif
(what is the end deliverable).  Of course, design is not my
main background (mechanical engineering is) so hopefully once
design proposals go up I can contribute.  I look forward to
seeing motif's!

Cheers,
Jaron


Sorry if I've been unclear about what the Motif-Design task entails.
I think I've done a better job explaining it on the wiki
(http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) than I have on
this list.

So if anyone else was also wondering what a Motif is, it's
basically a decorative visual element, usually quite abstract
(curves, patterns, colour-combinations, shapes, textures, or a
combination of all).
It usually gets used as subtle background elements in a Design
composition, or as recurring content-separators.
This is what Wikipedia thinks it is;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28visual_arts%29
More to the point, here is what a leading branding agency made
when decorating a plane;

http://landor.com/index.cfm?do=ourwork.casehistory&cn=6147&source=enews&utm_source=mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_content=wv1&utm_campaign=SuperBowl2011&bhcp=1


(The ribbon that spans the plane is their motif, a very
sophisticated way of saying "smooth ride" don't you think? =)

Essentially what we're aiming for is to create a pleasant vector
graphic that is so subtle that it can occupy empty space in an
elegant way.
*Sometimes it will be directly behind text so it needs to be
low-contrast and low on "noise" (not very intricate or busy).*

You have probably seen vector-flowers or inward-curling leaf/vine
shapes. Here is a typical example;

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/8603944/2/istockphoto_8603944-decorative-swirl-motifs.jpg

While flowers are nice, they don't say very much about Open source
software right? =)
So our goal is to come up with a "theme", such as "freedom,
collaboration, or independence" and create an abstract
representation of that, which we can use as a basis for ... well
... everything!;
posters, banners, web-pages, business cards, CDs/DVDs, your
slow-moving grandma, whatever really! =)

It is hard to create visual representations of intangible
concepts, but that is our challenge.
I'll collect and summarise the feedback from the "brainstorming"
phase tomorrow and present it to this list.
So if you want to add your two cents, feel free to dive in any time.

Hope that makes it a smidgeon more clear for everyone who wasn't
too sure what I was jabbering on about.
And thanks for bravely piping-up and letting me know I hadn't
defined the task to a wider audience Jaron!
Right now we need ideas, and once we've gathered some good ones
up, we can start sketching.

By the way, if you're looking for a simply AWESOME implementation
of a logo-brand turned into a motif (and everything else), look no
further than Duffy & Partner's "Bahamas campaign";
http://sublimedesign.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1273.jpg

Hope that clarifies and inspires =)
-Nik


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Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo


Hi Joey,

This feedback comes waaay too late, but I think your changes to the type 
have been awesome improvements in many areas (like the way you made the 
arch ascender of the second "f" end in a way that is concentric to the 
tittle of the "i", very nice). Like some others, the way the arm of the 
"f" touches the "i" makes me slightly uncomfortable when reading the word.


In any case, what I wanted to say is, I think your small improvements 
will be hard-pressed to outweigh the deficiencies in the typeface itself.
I think the design of the typeface is flawed and can't really be "fixed" 
with small typographic adjustments.
For example, even replacing the text with Arial is an improvement (but 
maybe only to me).
I'd like to know where you stand on the typeface in general? do you 
think it works?


I have problems with the geometric shape of the characters;

   * I don't like that the arm of the letter "L" appears thinner than
 the stroke-width of its stem (may just appear that way).
   * I think the kerning should be a lot tighter between the letters so
 that the distance between characters is the same as the gap
 between the stroke and tittle of the "i"
   * The bowl of the "b" makes no attempt to appear concentric (but
 that is just taste, many typefaces feature this)
   * I don't like that the beginning of the shoulder on the "r" is
 thinner than the end of it, especially because it is next to an
 "e" which is even in stroke width
   * I don't like that the foot of the "e" doesn't "close off" the
 shape which is featured in the eye
   * The "f"s are difficult in many ways
   * the "c" will need to change in order to appropriately match the
 curve of the final "e"
   * the list goes on really ...


But most of this is too nitpicky, no font is perfect (except HELVETICA =).
I'm not trying to be nasty, but this typeface looks genuinely unfinished.
I think we would do ourselves a huge favour by locating a better font 
for the next version of the logo.
What do you think? change or stay? and if change, do you or your 
colleagues know of any good open-source fonts?



I know ... It's very late to be talking about such things, but 
discussion in this vein might make for a better future logo.


-Nik


On 3/5/2011 4:52 AM, Johannes Bausch wrote:

Hey,

okay, I've tried to set up a voting page for us, see here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures

Do you all have
write access to this page? I am not that experienced with wikis.

@Bernhard: I've shifted the i more to the left. I've also redone the visual
kerning for some of the letters; have a look at the scaled-down versions, it
"should" look more even now.

@all: It would be great if you voted on the wiki or here on the mailing
list. Even if you disapprove of this poll it would be great to get some more
opinions on this; so far it's only five people who talk about it.

Thanks,
Joey

PS: I'll be away until Wednesday next week.

2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold


Hi Joey, all,

replying to both of your mails, so please scroll down until the end...

Johannes Bausch schrieb:


Hey,

to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a
poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote.
Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really
representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I
thought
you might be interested in the results:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png


It's impossible to see the different alternatives, because at my computer
the background is nearly black.

Ii updated the image with a slightly lighter grey background, so you can
see the different alternatives, but keep the white text of the poll results.

  Apparently noone likes the

too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in
general,
so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of LibO.
If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link.
So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting
page.
If you have some final ideas please tell me.


People seem to like the last alternative (with "f" bow bent towards the "i"
dot) as much as the original.

Even if this is far from being representative, I'd like to see a finalized
version of this proposal.

Could you improve this by moving the "i" nearer to the "f"? I don't think
that equal spacing for the dot between "f" and "i" looks best...

Perhaps a combination of your third an my proposal?


Greetings,
Joey

2011/3/2 Johannes Bausch

  Hey Bernhard,

2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold

In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted
to


work on a new proposal.

  I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos

on my
page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time
on
it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the liga

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout


Hi Ricardo, all,

On 3/7/2011 2:41 AM, RGB ES wrote:

Agree: I prefer no shadow at all, specially if it means more system
resourced used to no real usability gain.
Shadows make sense only when you need to visually separate between
stacked elements on a multi element UI like a desktop, but LibO UI is
*single* document. And even if multiple document UI is developed this
should be through a split screen/tabbed interface because it make no
sense to put all documents on a "desktop inside the desktop" like it
was on old staroffice 5.x.
And even if the reason is because "aesthetics", that's also arguable:
I always disable shadows on my kde box, even if I like other eye candy
effects a lot...
I think that a subtle gradient on the background, or even the
possibility to set up your own "walpaper" will be a lot better than
casting a shadow over a coloured "void".
Just my 2¢

Ricardo

Must be a subjective thing then.
Once you add that background-image though, you'll be mighty sorry you 
don't have a drop shadow to separate your document from that busy 
background image.
Which would be a usability gain. And even if it doesn't there's that 
precious fleeting thing called User Experience.

I for one, love drop shadows on my documents, makes it easier to focus.

I'd propose having a drop shadow by default and having the option to 
turn it off, or turn it "flat" (like it is currently).

I know; it's easy to say, but hard to implement. Sorry.

Just out of curiosity, are the shadows going to have transparency/alpha?
Once people add background images, you wouldn't want to see the edge 
between where the bg-image picks up and the shadow drops off.
And the idea of coloured drop shadows truly turns my stomach, it's too 
unprofessional?


On a Design note, while I'm glad we've proposed blurred border on all 
four sides (because nothing is worse and less-realistic than a default 
right+bottom dark blurred drop shadow),

...the apps use top-lighting.
So the bottom border should be darker than the left,top and right 
borders. Any gradient on the back should be lighter at the top and no 
other direction.
The "size" of the blur should be indicative of how far you want the user 
to perceive the "piece of paper" is from the "background" it is hovering 
above.

Right now the blurred border is too dark to be that wide;

The larger the blur-radius > the further the background > the more 
diffuse the shadow/lighting becomes > the "paler" the shadow should be.


And the shadow should scale with the zoom-level, when have you ever seen 
a thumbnail-size paper cast shadow twice its size in all four directions?

At a football stadium, I'm guessing =)
That will conveniently address the 
"proximity-to-neighbouring-pages-issue" too maybe?


I'll actually chip in a mock-up in the next few days if time allows.
Maybe the Motif-Design task can tie into this and become the subtle 
default bg-image?


-Nik


2011/3/6 Rick Hansson:

Hi all,

I don't see any reason for having borders or shades at all. A plain
background is fine. Keep it simple. I made a quick poll among friends and
they all have different ideas, so this would be great if it could be
optional. Also, since many like gradient backgrounds, why not make that
optional as well? I've uploaded some drafts:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad1.jpg
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad2.jpg
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad3.jpg

The default prefs are very important, since most users stick with them or
doesn't even know that you can do changes. The text boundaries for example
should be unchecked.

Rick

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Sébastien Le Raywrote:


Le Fri, 4 Mar 2011 21:36:19 +,
Daniel Merker  a écrit :


Hi,

Just a thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the background be
the primary color of that application. For example, the Writer would
have a blue tinted background with a shadow (I like the shadow on all
sides), and Impress would have an organge tinted background with the
same shadow around the slide. This should help tie in the color theme
and help build on a general motif.

-Daniel Merker


Hi,

The background color of the application can already be customized
through preferences...

regards

Sébastien

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout

2011-03-06 Thread Sébastien Le Ray

Le Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:15:54 -0500,
Rob Cummings  a écrit :

> First, as an element by itself, I like the four shadow borders, but I
> can't help but wonder how it fits in with any plan or vision for the
> future of the UI.
> 
> Also, I don't understand how a shadow border is any trickier when
> zoomed. The scale of the shadow (and line width) don't need to change
> with the zoom.  It's just a border.
> 

Agreed, but please reread my previous posts. The problem is that when
you zoom out, pages are closer from each other so if you keep your
shadows say 10px height, they'll overlap since space between pages is
< 20px.

Sébastien

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft