RE: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi everyone, I will be submitting a motif draft today. Sorry for the wait but it has been crazy lately. I'll try to get it done before this afternoon. -Daniel Merker -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff - Please no ribbons/tabs!
Hey, If no ribbons and toolbar solution as it is now are not solutions, then what is? http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 or http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273#/d37dxdr Whats wrong with these solutions? Table/Graphic bar can appear when clicking certain object. It's better when the toolbars allways take same space and don't resize if you click to different thing / different toolbar appears. That's why ribbon is good. Hillar 2011/3/10 Christopher Stark christopherst...@gmx.de Oh no, please no such ribbons like in M$EUR Office!! In my opinion the best solution is already implemented in LibreOffice and should be improved: * The menu bar with main functionality always stays in the same position * If I click into a table the table-bar appears * If I click on a graphic the graphic-bar appears * If I click into a bullet-point list the bullet-point-bar appears This is way more effective than the M$-variant where the user has to click on ribbons/tabs all the time and never knows if the required function hides behind Review, Insert or Design... Regards Christopher Am 10.03.2011 07:34, schrieb Hillar Liiv: Hello, Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know where LibreOffice is going. Some mockup/design examples: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 Other examples: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtgfeature=player_embedded If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make things work. (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice beacuase they don't like how it looks.) Thanks, Hillar -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers (was: [PUSHED]fdo#31251...)
Hi Bernhard, On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 22:11 +0100, Bernhard Dippold wrote: At first I want to thank Sébastien not only for his work, but also for being open to the discussion here, even if this means to delay the final inclusion of his patch. Agreed - we all think Sebastien rocks ;-) That we can agree on first, and this debate is not in fact about him - he acted in an exemplary manner (so I dropped the CC). Firstly, I of course want to apologise that my mail made you mad - clearly I was trying to redress an imbalance I was concerned might exist, and over-emphasised one side to try to help re-balance things. Unfortunately, that tipped the balance completely the other way - which I can understand (in retrospect) sounds upsetting, sorry. Having said that, I do think there might be some difference of understanding here, so lets dive into more detail. Also, apologies for not reading the mail - I spent yesterday heads down, doing many hours of tedious, mostly mindless merging work - the kind of stuff that makes programmers feel like donkeys involving no interesting, creative decisions at all ;-) It is an intricate, painful, mind-blowingly tedious task - but someone has to do it :-) Anyhow ... If Michael (as one of the most relevant developer in our community) is right with attitude against non-coding contributors I hope I'm not against anything, particularly not designer developers :-) I am -for- encouraging coders to get their code into the product, and for designers to get their ideas realised *and* simultaneously to create a fun place for everyone to work together, with good relationships. Of course that seems to have gone wrong here, and needs fixing :-) and if this is the official position of the LibreOffice project So - of course, my view is not an official position. Having said that, it is perhaps worth discussing. In the sphere of design, I see the design team as having a whole spectum of responsibility. At one end - one similar to the coder's and at the other a critical advisory and leadership role. So - starting at the coder-like end: * hard ownership role: + I expect the design team to own all of the artwork, icon themes, etc. in the product. + if I go adding garish / new icons to a theme, I expect to get beaten up by you guys - this is yours, all yours :-) * middler-ground role + defaults / dialog layout etc. + clearly this is fuzzier: dialog layout is (currently) dependent on l10n, so some things can't be done: we can't wedge 10x buttons into a small space ;-) + defaults can have a huge impact on performance, maintenance, complexity and code flow + changes to dialog layout behaviour require coding support - which -must- be -persuaded- not dictated * weak ownership + lets re-architect the whole user interface + the weakness here is mostly one of coding resource, and impact on architecture + it is simply not possible or practicle to dictate terms to other teams + rejecting inclusion of working improvements + this has an incredibly negative impact on the growth and fun of the coding community. ie. Sebastian's work was merged before getting UI review, this I expect to continue. So - I suspect the arguments here are around the 'middle' and 'weak' categories, what belongs where and what happens in what order etc. Personally, I don't have a defined view of how that works. In everything that I'm involved in I prefer informal, relational process. This means that power such as a veto power and the like simply don't exist :-) If designers feel -extremely- strongly that something shouldn't go in - I'd want to listen very carefully since you contribute so much; but if the relevant developer feels similarly strongly, then we'd have a problem and need to dig more (and so it goes on). I don't think hard and fast rules capture the real world in an incredibly helpful way in these situations. When coders are allowed and encouraged to do their changes regardless of the voting of the relevant experts in areas their code contribution touches, we come back to a two-class community I don't think there is a two-class community, I think there are tons of people with different domain expertise - and that we should listen carefully to each of them and come up with a balanced solution that pleases as many people as possible: l10n, coders, designers, etc. I also don't believe that all developers by definition have no design sense and insight :-) I -do-not- see the design team having an ultimate say in this world, where their word is law, and their
[libreoffice-design] Installer changes for Windows users
As this is my first post here I'd like to introduce myself as someone who is not a coder, but one who sees a lot of exciting potential in this LibreOffice project. I hope this application suite can globally serve users across many platforms, interfaces and requirements. I use OpenSUSE and Win7, and have used OOo the last four years, and used StarOffice 10 years ago. Initially I would like to highly suggest some polishes on the win32 installer for the 3.4 project: When the first step to installing LibreOffice is the prompt to ask where to extract the install folder immediate confusion comes to many elementary PC users. I think this is primarily because this step is unusual, most Windows-based apps do not contain this step, or hide it from the user. I suggest eliminating this step. Either the installer file is packaged differently to accomplish this, or it automatically extracts the MSI, etc. into a temp folder in the background, which is afterwards deleted upon a successful installation. The second issue is that the install folder C:\Program Files\LibreOffice 3 contains the version number. This is much better than the Start Menu\Programs folder LibreOffice 3.3 which contains the point version also. I suggest removing both. Simply LibreOffice is enough, and is a much more common standard and expectation for Windows users. Thank you for your consideration of this! --Jared -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Daniel, *, Am Freitag, 11. März 2011, 15:05:34 schrieb Daniel Merker: Hi all, I have posted my submission to the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Daniel%27s_Motif_-_Attempt_2.png I think it is an interesting proposal but I'm afraid if I look on it a bit closer I get some eye issue. It seemed to me if I see the text twice and so it is not very eye friendly for me. I can't look longer onto the graphic. Just my 2 € cent Regards, Andreas -- ## Developer LibreOffice ## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows ## http://LibreOffice.org ## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org) ## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Installer changes for Windows users
Hi all. I'm just a user too, that follows the LibreOffice project with many hopes and that try to contribute with bug filing and comments. On 11/03/2011 16:17, Jared Meidal wrote: When the first step to installing LibreOffice is the prompt to ask where to extract the install folder immediate confusion comes to many elementary PC users. I think this is primarily because this step is unusual, most Windows-based apps do not contain this step, or hide it from the user. I suggest eliminating this step. Either the installer file is packaged differently to accomplish this, or it automatically extracts the MSI, etc. into a temp folder in the background, which is afterwards deleted upon a successful installation. I completely agree with you. I've always found strange using the desktop as temporary folder and also found strange that the user has to manually delete later this folder. I concur that this forlder should go to %temp% and that has to be deleted after the setup completes (even with error). I'm unsure if can be useful to make a permanent copy of this folder under the LibreOffice folder in %programfiles%, so that the user can modify his setup without having to find the original installer. Tipical use case is, for example, to add Impress if you haven't installed it in the first place, or to modify file associations, or to restore the program if something got screwed up. It wastes disk space but can be useful in many cases. The second issue is that the install folder C:\Program Files\LibreOffice 3 contains the version number. This is much better than the Start Menu\Programs folder LibreOffice 3.3 which contains the point version also. I suggest removing both. Simply LibreOffice is enough, and is a much more common standard and expectation for Windows users. Like Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird, for example. It's something i do on every setup: i change the folder name deleting the version. It makes upgrades easier (from a user point of view). For example, when you upgrade from 2.4 to 3.x (as i'm doing now at work), many users ends up with a broken quicklaunch program in their startup folder: if you use version number in folder, quicklaunch is not able to find itself anymore after upgrade and you have to solve the problem manually. Another thing that i've always found strange in OpenOffice/LibreOffice Windows configuration is that, under the Start Menu, LibreOffice programs are showed with their real name (LibreOffice Writer, LibreOffice Calc, etc), while if you right-click on the systray icon you can see the localized document type (i translate from italian: Text document, Spreadsheet, Presentation). My workmate believe this is a bug, me just an incoherence. In my opinion the better solution would be to render identical both strings, with something like this: Writer (Text documents) Calc (Spreadsheet) Impress (Presentations) ... Or reversed: Text documents (Writer) Spreadsheet (Calc) ... All the string should be localized, like the ones in the quicklaunch. And without the LibreOffice prefix (as LibreOffice Writer), since the word LibreOffice it is already in the folder name. This has the good effect of teaching the corrispondence between the name of the application and what it does. Many employees keeps on calling Excel the spreadsheet and Word the word processor and ignoring what are Calc and Writer... ;-) Hope to help. Cesare. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Installer changes for Windows users
On the topic of this, I had actually proposed an entire redesign of the installer system in a much earlier post, but in discussions on IRC I was informed that making alternate UI's for Windows Installer systems is a pretty difficult task. ~Shawn On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Cesare Leonardi celeo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all. I'm just a user too, that follows the LibreOffice project with many hopes and that try to contribute with bug filing and comments. On 11/03/2011 16:17, Jared Meidal wrote: When the first step to installing LibreOffice is the prompt to ask where to extract the install folder immediate confusion comes to many elementary PC users. I think this is primarily because this step is unusual, most Windows-based apps do not contain this step, or hide it from the user. I suggest eliminating this step. Either the installer file is packaged differently to accomplish this, or it automatically extracts the MSI, etc. into a temp folder in the background, which is afterwards deleted upon a successful installation. I completely agree with you. I've always found strange using the desktop as temporary folder and also found strange that the user has to manually delete later this folder. I concur that this forlder should go to %temp% and that has to be deleted after the setup completes (even with error). I'm unsure if can be useful to make a permanent copy of this folder under the LibreOffice folder in %programfiles%, so that the user can modify his setup without having to find the original installer. Tipical use case is, for example, to add Impress if you haven't installed it in the first place, or to modify file associations, or to restore the program if something got screwed up. It wastes disk space but can be useful in many cases. The second issue is that the install folder C:\Program Files\LibreOffice 3 contains the version number. This is much better than the Start Menu\Programs folder LibreOffice 3.3 which contains the point version also. I suggest removing both. Simply LibreOffice is enough, and is a much more common standard and expectation for Windows users. Like Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird, for example. It's something i do on every setup: i change the folder name deleting the version. It makes upgrades easier (from a user point of view). For example, when you upgrade from 2.4 to 3.x (as i'm doing now at work), many users ends up with a broken quicklaunch program in their startup folder: if you use version number in folder, quicklaunch is not able to find itself anymore after upgrade and you have to solve the problem manually. Another thing that i've always found strange in OpenOffice/LibreOffice Windows configuration is that, under the Start Menu, LibreOffice programs are showed with their real name (LibreOffice Writer, LibreOffice Calc, etc), while if you right-click on the systray icon you can see the localized document type (i translate from italian: Text document, Spreadsheet, Presentation). My workmate believe this is a bug, me just an incoherence. In my opinion the better solution would be to render identical both strings, with something like this: Writer (Text documents) Calc (Spreadsheet) Impress (Presentations) ... Or reversed: Text documents (Writer) Spreadsheet (Calc) ... All the string should be localized, like the ones in the quicklaunch. And without the LibreOffice prefix (as LibreOffice Writer), since the word LibreOffice it is already in the folder name. This has the good effect of teaching the corrispondence between the name of the application and what it does. Many employees keeps on calling Excel the spreadsheet and Word the word processor and ignoring what are Calc and Writer... ;-) Hope to help. Cesare. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar
Hi Kohei, all On 11-03-2011 19:11, Kohei Yoshida wrote: Yes, this is a good idea, and I like it a lot. That would greatly enhance the visibility of this icon. The only issue is that, implementing it would take a little extra effort. So what I'd like to do is to just leave the icon behavior as-is for 3.4 (but update the icon images with yours), and look into implementing timed feedback that you are proposing after the 3.4 release. I hope that's okay. For me it's allright. But I think we must wait a bit more for feedback from the other design and UX's people. But I'm very glade that you like the idea! So, for 3.4, I guess we should take the left and middle ones? Yeah, but like I've said, we should wait. I'd like to get some other members opinions, like Bernhard, Nik or Ivan. Up to this moment, just Christoph and Jaron did take part on it. Kohei Thank you for your support, Kohei! ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Installer changes for Windows users
Another Windows related issue would be adding Win7 capabilities. Currently I cannot group LibreOffice apps in the task bar by an app that is reviously pinned. For example I can pin Writer to the task bar, but when opening it, or a new doc, it appears separately on the task bar. --Jared In His Service, Jared Meidal Outdoor Education Director THE OAKS Camp and Conference Center a ministry of World Impact, Inc. Office: (661) 724-1018 ext.317 Shawn Thompson superfox...@gmail.com 03/11/11 15:16 PM On the topic of this, I had actually proposed an entire redesign of the installer system in a much earlier post, but in discussions on IRC I was informed that making alternate UI's for Windows Installer systems is a pretty difficult task. ~Shawn On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Cesare Leonardi celeo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all. I'm just a user too, that follows the LibreOffice project with many hopes and that try to contribute with bug filing and comments. On 11/03/2011 16:17, Jared Meidal wrote: When the first step to installing LibreOffice is the prompt to ask where to extract the install folder immediate confusion comes to many elementary PC users. I think this is primarily because this step is unusual, most Windows-based apps do not contain this step, or hide it from the user. I suggest eliminating this step. Either the installer file is packaged differently to accomplish this, or it automatically extracts the MSI, etc. into a temp folder in the background, which is afterwards deleted upon a successful installation. I completely agree with you. I've always found strange using the desktop as temporary folder and also found strange that the user has to manually delete later this folder. I concur that this forlder should go to %temp% and that has to be deleted after the setup completes (even with error). I'm unsure if can be useful to make a permanent copy of this folder under the LibreOffice folder in %programfiles%, so that the user can modify his setup without having to find the original installer. Tipical use case is, for example, to add Impress if you haven't installed it in the first place, or to modify file associations, or to restore the program if something got screwed up. It wastes disk space but can be useful in many cases. The second issue is that the install folder C:\Program Files\LibreOffice 3 contains the version number. This is much better than the Start Menu\Programs folder LibreOffice 3.3 which contains the point version also. I suggest removing both. Simply LibreOffice is enough, and is a much more common standard and expectation for Windows users. Like Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird, for example. It's something i do on every setup: i change the folder name deleting the version. It makes upgrades easier (from a user point of view). For example, when you upgrade from 2.4 to 3.x (as i'm doing now at work), many users ends up with a broken quicklaunch program in their startup folder: if you use version number in folder, quicklaunch is not able to find itself anymore after upgrade and you have to solve the problem manually. Another thing that i've always found strange in OpenOffice/LibreOffice Windows configuration is that, under the Start Menu, LibreOffice programs are showed with their real name (LibreOffice Writer, LibreOffice Calc, etc), while if you right-click on the systray icon you can see the localized document type (i translate from italian: Text document, Spreadsheet, Presentation). My workmate believe this is a bug, me just an incoherence. In my opinion the better solution would be to render identical both strings, with something like this: Writer (Text documents) Calc (Spreadsheet) Impress (Presentations) ... Or reversed: Text documents (Writer) Spreadsheet (Calc) ... All the string should be localized, like the ones in the quicklaunch. And without the LibreOffice prefix (as LibreOffice Writer), since the word LibreOffice it is already in the folder name. This has the good effect of teaching the corrispondence between the name of the application and what it does. Many employees keeps on calling Excel the spreadsheet and Word the word processor and ignoring what are Calc and Writer... ;-) Hope to help. Cesare. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
