[libreoffice-design] "Save as" description in Save Options
I've found the list for alternative default file formats in the 3.4 betas (tested b2, b3) are being reworked. Perhaps it is still not close to being finalized, but I've noticed the file extensions ".*" are not included any more. I'm running this on WinXP currently. I would love to see this re-included for clarity's sake. Here's the current list from "Text document" options I've copied down the current 3.4b3 dropdown: HTML (StarWriter) MS WinWord 6.0 MS Word 95 MS Word 97 MS Word 2003 XML MS Word 2007 XML Office Open XML Text Rich Text Format StarOffice XML (Writer) Text Text (encoded) writer8 writer8_template writer_StarOffice_XML_Writer_Template Could we please include the actual extensions here also, e.g. *.html, *.doc,*rtf...) Also, in the 3.3 releases the general *.doc option was "Microsoft Word 97/2000/XP) which I think is much more lucid, although MS 2007/2010 can still save in this format, it is not their default format. Thank you! --Jared -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
Can you direct me to the specifications that were set for the replacement UI engine?? I'm curious to see what it entailed... And sorry if I stepped on any toes with my other post - its an idea I've had basically since high school and so I was just trying to get some input on it! :) Yours Truly, Scott R. Pledger On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 13:49, Kohei Yoshida wrote: > On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 18:11 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote: > > Hi Kohei, hi Scott! > > > > Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're > > listening here (especially since I know your workload...)! > > No problem. I decided to jump in because we (the developers) have been > discussing this matter to death. So, this is not just a concern for the > UI designers alone. > > > Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida: > > > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > > > > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI > template? > > > > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... > > > > > > We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should > > > look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane > > > approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we > did > > > use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still > > > around in the code base though we are on their way out. > > > > > > So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely. > > > > As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue. > > For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML > > based UI declaration ... > > > > http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199 > > (see also the presentation download) > > > > Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early > > 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some > > improvements about what we have today. Here, "ideally" mainly refers to > > its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this > > discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog > > post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting: > > > http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html > > Thanks for the info. FYI we (the Go-OO team) had worked on introducing > the new UI layout engine as well. Though that attempt didn't really > materialize, we are very much interested in giving it another go. So > this is very important to all of us, and many of us have been scratching > our heads trying to figure out what best to do to bring it forward. > > We've looked through pretty much all existing frameworks but none of > them fit our need without making major compromise somewhere. And to be > honest replacing one cross-platform framework (VCL) with another one may > not solve the issue, no matter how good some people believe the > replacement is. > > Kohei > > -- > Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 18:11 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote: > Hi Kohei, hi Scott! > > Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're > listening here (especially since I know your workload...)! No problem. I decided to jump in because we (the developers) have been discussing this matter to death. So, this is not just a concern for the UI designers alone. > Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida: > > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > > > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? > > > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... > > > > We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should > > look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane > > approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did > > use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still > > around in the code base though we are on their way out. > > > > So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely. > > As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue. > For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML > based UI declaration ... > > http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199 > (see also the presentation download) > > Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early > 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some > improvements about what we have today. Here, "ideally" mainly refers to > its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this > discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog > post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting: > http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html Thanks for the info. FYI we (the Go-OO team) had worked on introducing the new UI layout engine as well. Though that attempt didn't really materialize, we are very much interested in giving it another go. So this is very important to all of us, and many of us have been scratching our heads trying to figure out what best to do to bring it forward. We've looked through pretty much all existing frameworks but none of them fit our need without making major compromise somewhere. And to be honest replacing one cross-platform framework (VCL) with another one may not solve the issue, no matter how good some people believe the replacement is. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 13:18 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > Any thoughts? Before we go overboard with this, I'd like to point out that a lot of us developers have already gone through quite a lot of brainstorming and trials and errors, and I don't want us to discuss this over here on the design list as if none of the prior discussions and prototypes ever happened. Plus, the input we get on this list from other stake holders and potential implementers are very limited. So, if you are interested in discussing what the implementation should be like, let's discuss this on the developer list. Kohei -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
Hi Scott,
you get a "phew" from my side ;-)
Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 13:18 -0600 schrieb Scott Pledger:
> The more I look at the source code for vcl, the more I am beginning to
> dislike it And I'm looking at some of the other XML-based UI languages
> available and none of them really seem adequate to describe any kind of a
> major UI overhaul that would keep LibreOffice up to date with other office
> suites
Personally, I don't know how much changes we'll need to really need to
get some initial improvements ... und (finally) be up-to-date.
> So here's just a general idea I've had on XML layouts for quite a while -
> let me know what you think!
[...]
> and in the compiled code, one might see:
> Dialog promptdialog = new Dialog("promptdialog.xml");
> ((ButtonWidget) promptdialog.getById("okbutton")).onClick() = new
> function(){
> /** Handle clicks here **/
> };
You clearly outperformed me in terms of code understanding ... ;-)
Although I wrote simple code snippets ages ago, I'm not able to
understand whether this will work for us. Here I think, it would be
better to address the developers. Or, we may sketch some improved UI and
then we can look at it to say "will work", or "needs improvement". But
that's only me ... maybe the others can have a look at it.
> and that would basically be it. Any thoughts?
My current thought is, that it's great to have someone who better
understands the rationale for this/that in the code - that always helps
to build bridges between the teams. That's indeed cool!
> Yours Truly,
> Scott R. Pledger
Cheers,
Christoph
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:11, Christoph Noack wrote:
>
> > Hi Kohei, hi Scott!
> >
> > Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're
> > listening here (especially since I know your workload...)!
> >
> > Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida:
> > > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:
> > > > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI
> > template?
> > > > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start...
> > >
> > > We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should
> > > look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane
> > > approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did
> > > use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still
> > > around in the code base though we are on their way out.
> > >
> > > So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely.
> >
> > As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue.
> > For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML
> > based UI declaration ...
> >
> > http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199
> > (see also the presentation download)
> >
> > Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early
> > 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some
> > improvements about what we have today. Here, "ideally" mainly refers to
> > its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this
> > discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog
> > post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting:
> >
> > http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Christoph
> >
> > PS: You may have noticed that my availability is a bit bad at the
> > moment ... so sorry for not commenting the other threads at the moment
> > "in time".
> >
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
>
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Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
The more I look at the source code for vcl, the more I am beginning to
dislike it And I'm looking at some of the other XML-based UI languages
available and none of them really seem adequate to describe any kind of a
major UI overhaul that would keep LibreOffice up to date with other office
suites
So here's just a general idea I've had on XML layouts for quite a while -
let me know what you think!
Essentially, there would be three basic types of UI elements: layouts,
widgets, and references. Layouts determine how whatever is inside them
'flows'. Widgets are the actual parts that are interactive or informative
and may be defined by other xml files. Finally, references just include
other defined pieces of the XML code. Any programmatic interaction is done
by accepting clicks, etc. from the widgets.
So a sample of an OK dialog might be:
Click OK here!
and in the compiled code, one might see:
Dialog promptdialog = new Dialog("promptdialog.xml");
((ButtonWidget) promptdialog.getById("okbutton")).onClick() = new
function(){
/** Handle clicks here **/
};
and that would basically be it. Any thoughts?
Yours Truly,
Scott R. Pledger
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:11, Christoph Noack wrote:
> Hi Kohei, hi Scott!
>
> Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're
> listening here (especially since I know your workload...)!
>
> Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida:
> > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:
> > > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI
> template?
> > > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start...
> >
> > We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should
> > look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane
> > approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did
> > use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still
> > around in the code base though we are on their way out.
> >
> > So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely.
>
> As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue.
> For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML
> based UI declaration ...
>
> http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199
> (see also the presentation download)
>
> Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early
> 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some
> improvements about what we have today. Here, "ideally" mainly refers to
> its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this
> discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog
> post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting:
>
> http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> PS: You may have noticed that my availability is a bit bad at the
> moment ... so sorry for not commenting the other threads at the moment
> "in time".
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Questions about "style" name
Hi Octavio! Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 11:47 -0700 schrieb Octavio Alvarez: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:38:15 -0700, Christoph Noack > wrote: > > > Hi Octavio, Ricardo, all! > > > > Am Mittwoch, den 27.04.2011, 10:20 -0700 schrieb Octavio Alvarez: > >> On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:35:08 -0700, RGB ES wrote: > >> > >>> there is no indicator on the user interface to show if there is any > >>> applied on the text. I think we need a style selector/status bar: > >>> something like this: > >>> > >> If you go to the Character Styles list (or Paragraph, or any other) in > >> the Styles and Formatting window, the list will always select the > >> style that is applied to the current position. > >> > >> I don't say it is the best way, simply that there is a way. > > > > I like the idea by Octavio ... > > I meant that LibO already does this. I meant to disagree on the "there > is no indicator" argument, because there actually is one already. Hehe, different point-of-view ... there is no "summary" that explains the user what is available or not. So if most of the people are lost how the styles / formatting correlates, then - to me - its equal to "not there". But however we call it ... it should be improved. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Questions about "style" name
Hi all! Quick reply (tm) ... :-) Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 20:29 +0200 schrieb RGB ES: > 2011/4/29 Michel RENON : > > Le 26/04/11 22:04, Christoph Noack a écrit : [ ... Styles Proposal ... ] > >> Of course, there are other ways of improving the use of Styles ... but > >> this needs a whiteboard :-) > >> > >> > >> Ricardo, Michel, all - what do you think? Something we might work out > >> for EasyHacks? > > > > Hmmm... Styles are not so easy... (IMHO) > > So it would be for "NotSoEasyHack" ;-) Oh, the dev pages are full of them as well. > > That's why I ask you if it's possible to create a pre-whiteboard : > > before working on new UI for styles, can we explain/analyse very precisely > > how styles work in LibreOffice 3.4 ? > > For example, I have to tell you that I don't understand in Writer : > > - what are the relations between "numbering styles" and "outlines" I think here we can rely on the excellent documentation which is already available. Here is what's available in Writer: http://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Instructions_for_Using_Writer#Headings.2C_Types_of_Numbering Or, the Oracle guys provide some good specifications for that: http://specs.openoffice.org/writer/index.html And, of course - and as Ricardo already started - just ask to get a feeling how Styles do work. For example, my two proposals for improving the use of styles would be (but have to be checked): * Pre-define the paragraph styles related to numbering by referring to the numbering styles having the same name * Manual numberings / lists should inherit the settings of the first "corresponding" numbering style [...] > Too long for an email... in fact, there is one chapter of my book on > Writer (Spanish only, sorry) only devoted to how numbered lists are > aligned... :-) [...] > So as I already said on another thread, we have a powerful, solid but > obscure system for numbering. Once you understand how it works, it's > just great, but learning how it works... not an easy task. True, and I think that's exactly the reason why we should make it more visible - that might reduce the need for fiddling around with manual settings without knowing what to do. > Cheers > Ricardo Thanks Ricardo, Michel! Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Questions about "style" name
On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:38:15 -0700, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Octavio, Ricardo, all! Am Mittwoch, den 27.04.2011, 10:20 -0700 schrieb Octavio Alvarez: On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:35:08 -0700, RGB ES wrote: there is no indicator on the user interface to show if there is any applied on the text. I think we need a style selector/status bar: something like this: If you go to the Character Styles list (or Paragraph, or any other) in the Styles and Formatting window, the list will always select the style that is applied to the current position. I don't say it is the best way, simply that there is a way. I like the idea by Octavio ... I meant that LibO already does this. I meant to disagree on the "there is no indicator" argument, because there actually is one already. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Questions about "style" name
2011/4/29 Michel RENON : > Le 26/04/11 22:04, Christoph Noack a écrit : >> >> Hi, >> >> [...] >> >> >> We discussed this issue many times at OOo, and I came to the following >> (personal) conclusion; we need ... >> * a more sensible selection of styles (e.g. attach the list styles >> to the paragraph styles intended for list use) >> * an improved Stylist that makes less use of double-clicks and and >> context menus (a bit different to what Rafael proposed) --> >> single click confirmation >> * a real preview of each Style in the Stylist >> * a real preview for the Styles drop-down in the toolbar >> * a better connection between the Style drop-down, the Stylist >> on/off icon to make the idea of styles more clear >> * a more intelligent ordering of styles (not too smart, but smart >> enough to present the styles used in the document along with not >> used ones) >> >> Of course, there are other ways of improving the use of Styles ... but >> this needs a whiteboard :-) >> >> >> Ricardo, Michel, all - what do you think? Something we might work out >> for EasyHacks? > > Hmmm... Styles are not so easy... (IMHO) > So it would be for "NotSoEasyHack" ;-) > > That's why I ask you if it's possible to create a pre-whiteboard : > before working on new UI for styles, can we explain/analyse very precisely > how styles work in LibreOffice 3.4 ? > For example, I have to tell you that I don't understand in Writer : > - what are the relations between "numbering styles" and "outlines" In a nutshell, "numbering styles" are called from paragraph styles when you need to create a list, while "outline numbering" is used for, well, the outline of your document and it is applied to headings. Both seems similar but they are quite different, at least conceptually. And yes, this create a lot of confusion among new (and not so new) users... > - how the dialog "Bullets and numbering" really works, and what is possible Too long for an email... in fact, there is one chapter of my book on Writer (Spanish only, sorry) only devoted to how numbered lists are aligned... > - what is the relation of the dialog "Outline and numbering"[1] with > similar properties of paragraph ? They are, at the same time, the same and the opposite thing :) Let me explain it a bit more. The Tools → Outline numbering dialogue is the original menu for controlling the outline of your document, giving a "level" to different headings and also allowing the numbering of chapters/sections, for example, and it is still recommended to start the outline of your document from there. On earlier OOo versions the "Outline and numbering" tab for paragraph styles did not exist: it was only the "Numbering" tab and there there was a menu to select a numbering style to associate with that paragraph style in order to build lists, for example. I think it was on 3.2 that the "Numbering tab" evolved to the "Outline and numbering" tab, adding the possibility to select the outline level for that paragraph style: this way Writer gained the really nice possibility to have several paragraph styles for the *same* outline level, something that was impossible before. The bad here it is that you cannot associate an outline numbering to these "extra" styles the same way you can do for the "base" styles from Tools → Outline numbering, so if you need to have numbers also for these styles you need to associate to them numbering styles... and then the confusion for a new user reaches its greatest moment... The really important point is that you cannot apply at the same time a numbering from Tools → Outline numbering and by selecting a numbering style on the "Outline and numbering" tab: both methods are incompatible. So as I already said on another thread, we have a powerful, solid but obscure system for numbering. Once you understand how it works, it's just great, but learning how it works... not an easy task. Cheers Ricardo > > > > Michel > > > > [1] As soon as I discorvered it, I found it very usefull to perform quickly > the global numbering of a document. > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Venezuela logo - a proposal
== Thanks guys, The idea is that this be used as a template for communities. I will work on other proposals, according to the suggestions. []'s On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:16 PM, RGB ES wrote: > 2011/4/28 Helio S. Ferreira : > > Hi Daniel, all. > > > > I'm proposing an alternative to the Community Venezuela logo. > > > > > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1582639/logo_libre_venezuela_01.png > > > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1582639/logo_libre_venezuela_02.png > > > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1582639/logo_libre_venezuela_03.png > > > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1582639/logo_libre_venezuela_04.png > > > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1582639/logo_libre_venezuela_05.png > > > > > > Best regards. > > > > -- > > Hélio José Santiago Ferreira > > Linux User #384101 > > > > -- > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > > > > > Great material! I agree with Marc that this can be used as template > for other teams. > I'm between 2 and 5, and as Marc already said, the greyscale in 4 is > really good for those situation in which colour is not a choice. > As a comment, there is a small glitch on 1 and 2: the "ligature" > between both "f" shows a darker line, maybe product of the > superposition of the "carved" effect. > > @ Marc Paré > > I especially like the #5 use of the gradient, but I am not > > sure how this would affect flags that include any white > > in their colour combinations. > > Maybe a subtle shadow effect around the flag? > > Cheers > Ricardo > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Hélio José Santiago Ferreira Linux User #384101 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Questions about "style" name
Le 26/04/11 22:04, Christoph Noack a écrit : Hi, [...] We discussed this issue many times at OOo, and I came to the following (personal) conclusion; we need ... * a more sensible selection of styles (e.g. attach the list styles to the paragraph styles intended for list use) * an improved Stylist that makes less use of double-clicks and and context menus (a bit different to what Rafael proposed) --> single click confirmation * a real preview of each Style in the Stylist * a real preview for the Styles drop-down in the toolbar * a better connection between the Style drop-down, the Stylist on/off icon to make the idea of styles more clear * a more intelligent ordering of styles (not too smart, but smart enough to present the styles used in the document along with not used ones) Of course, there are other ways of improving the use of Styles ... but this needs a whiteboard :-) Ricardo, Michel, all - what do you think? Something we might work out for EasyHacks? Hmmm... Styles are not so easy... (IMHO) So it would be for "NotSoEasyHack" ;-) That's why I ask you if it's possible to create a pre-whiteboard : before working on new UI for styles, can we explain/analyse very precisely how styles work in LibreOffice 3.4 ? For example, I have to tell you that I don't understand in Writer : - what are the relations between "numbering styles" and "outlines" - how the dialog "Bullets and numbering" really works, and what is possible - what is the relation of the dialog "Outline and numbering"[1] with similar properties of paragraph ? Michel [1] As soon as I discorvered it, I found it very usefull to perform quickly the global numbering of a document. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-design] Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior
This may sound like blasphemy to Fedora people, but... What about moving to Mono (and making it more C# like)... -Original Message- From: Michel RENON [mailto:michel.re...@free.fr] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:55 PM To: design@libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-design] Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior Hi, Le 29/04/11 07:15, Scott Pledger a écrit : > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... > > Yours Truly, > Scott Pledger > You're not the first to have this idea ;-) I digged into some folders and found the slides of the OOo Conference about that ! It was in 2005 in Slovenia and you can still see the video ! (but in a java applet !) http://ooocon.kiberpipa.org/media/index-day2-2005.html But I have to admit that I'm afraid about speed : today, on my MacbookPro (Core2Duo@2.16GHz), Firefox needs nearly ten seconds to launch...LibreOffice needs more than 20 seconds...and 5 seconds more before typing anay character...! So imagine LibreOffice with Gecko/XUL embedded... Or maybe something lighter : webkit with jquery ??? but it would require some UNO/javascript bindings ? ouch... And what about Qt ? (http://qt.nokia.com/) With the new Qt Quick (http://qt.nokia.com/qtquick/), wouldn't it be interesting to evaluate such a migration ? It would avoid to reinvent the wheel, it would allow to use standards tools (Qt Creator, Quick Designer)... One big problem is that it would replace VCL for widgets, but it would be in conflict with a lot of others parts of code : rendering, threads, network, filesystem...well nearly all the foundations of LibreOffice. But future versions of Qt won't be monolitic : http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/01/21/status-of-qt-modularization/ Maybe this will make it possible ? Michel -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] special process for urgent ux items ?
Le 25/04/11 14:18, Christoph Noack a écrit : [...] How to start, well, maybe we can do it in a collaborative manner to evaluate the issues without (at the moment) using the bugtracker - to me, it seems to provide a better overview. Once we have some selected items, we might ask the developers how they want to have it. We started a similar collection quite some time ago for OpenOffice.org - finding better defaults. So just as an idea how we handled that collection and the discussion, please have a look: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Improving_OOo_Default_Settings One issue remains - it is always a good idea to have someone who cares / drives such an effort. It is not about solving each issue, but to take care that a basic schedule is met, the feedback is sufficient etc. Is there any chance that you pick might this item - that would be amazing. Well... As you can see, I participate very irregulary because I'm on hurry with a big project : I can respond when I do a pause... And it'll keep me very busy for the next 2 or 3 months. So I for the next 2 or 3 months, I really can't take care of that kind of task. Michel -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior
Hi, Le 29/04/11 07:15, Scott Pledger a écrit : Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... Yours Truly, Scott Pledger You're not the first to have this idea ;-) I digged into some folders and found the slides of the OOo Conference about that ! It was in 2005 in Slovenia and you can still see the video ! (but in a java applet !) http://ooocon.kiberpipa.org/media/index-day2-2005.html But I have to admit that I'm afraid about speed : today, on my MacbookPro (Core2Duo@2.16GHz), Firefox needs nearly ten seconds to launch...LibreOffice needs more than 20 seconds...and 5 seconds more before typing anay character...! So imagine LibreOffice with Gecko/XUL embedded... Or maybe something lighter : webkit with jquery ??? but it would require some UNO/javascript bindings ? ouch... And what about Qt ? (http://qt.nokia.com/) With the new Qt Quick (http://qt.nokia.com/qtquick/), wouldn't it be interesting to evaluate such a migration ? It would avoid to reinvent the wheel, it would allow to use standards tools (Qt Creator, Quick Designer)... One big problem is that it would replace VCL for widgets, but it would be in conflict with a lot of others parts of code : rendering, threads, network, filesystem...well nearly all the foundations of LibreOffice. But future versions of Qt won't be monolitic : http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/01/21/status-of-qt-modularization/ Maybe this will make it possible ? Michel -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] New Layout Concept - Update
2011/4/29 Scott Pledger : > I'm working on that, too. From what I can see of the old graphical layout > utility that we use, there is no way for us to create this in an easy > fashion. What I think we can do, however, is to replace the old vcl library > with something new. I'm looking at using XUL instead, but the problem so > far that I'm running into is that XUL really prefers the backend code to be > mostly javascript. So what I'm thinking we may wish to do is to replace vcl > with something that has the same API but that uses custom xml, svg, and css > to describe the forms that we need it to make however this is going to be a > lot of work as I don't really see any other F/OSS libraries to pull from... > Any other suggestions would be really helpful! > > Yours Truly, > Scott R. Pledger > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 08:35, Cyril Arnaud wrote: > >> That's a really nice mock up. >> But how do we make it a reality now ? >> >> On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 15:44 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > I have done a bit more work on the layout concept I described in some >> > earlier emails. Let me know what you think!! The File and View menus >> are >> > interactive when you view the presentation. >> > >> > http://pledgecomputers.com/LibreOffice/Redesign/Preview.odp >> > >> > Yours Truly, >> > Scott Pledger >> > >> >> -- >> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> deleted >> > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > Qt? Calligra Suite is building an UI which is similar to your mock up. Cheers Ricardo -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Templates, styles, outline and bullets/numbering
2011/4/29 Greg : >> 2011/4/28 Greg : >> > Hi, >> > >> > I believe Writer's template, style, outline and numbering facilities are >> > in need of a rethink. The areas I think are weak, and this is by no >> > means a full list, are: >> > - The template organiser dialogue - who knows how to use it and what it's >> > really for? >> > - Style management - setting defaults, selecting style-sheets with some >> > idea of the stylistic/visual impact, changing styles >> > - Style usage - must become solid, robust and consistent. The >> > impossibility of getting working single type or mixed type (numbered or >> > bulletted) outline lists must be solved! At the moment, there seem to be >> > three or four ways to control list hierarchies and only some (or one) >> > of them work. They are using the tab key, using the increase/decrease >> > indent button, using the list or numbering styles or using the bullets >> > and numbering's outline view. They each break the others in an >> > unpredictable way! >> > >> > I think the user stories that press on the issues are something like: >> > >> > 1/ As a document writer, I want to ensure my document is easy to read >> > because all the paragraphs, headers and lists are consistent in their >> > style and outline level, according to their position in the document >> > hierarchy. >> > >> > You can probably tell from this that I think we should strive to make >> > styles and outline levels so easy to use (while not diminishing their >> > full capabilities) that users predominantly use styles and not the >> > ad-hoc editing methods that render most docs inconsistent and difficult >> > to read. >> > >> > 2/ As a document writer, I want to be able to very easily select a >> > style-sheet to change the look of my document, so I have a good idea of >> > how the new style- sheet will look before I select it and I should not >> > have to do much custom editing to get a style I like. >> > >> > 3/As a style-sheet writer or modifier, I want to see a style-sheet view >> > of the world, that shows the hierarchy of styles and their setting >> > inheritance and overrides, so that I can easily build and maintain a >> > simple and logical style- sheet >> > >> > e.g. style settings inheritance and override hierarchy (This indented >> > text illustrates the hierarchy, not a design ;o) >> > >> > -- Default (All settings, including outline levels) >> > --Paragraph text (overridden or new settings) >> > --Heading (overridden or new settings) >> > --Heading1 (overridden or new settings) >> > --Heading2 (overridden or new settings) >> > --Heading3 (overridden or new settings) >> > --Header (overridden or new settings) >> > --FirstPageHeader (overridden or new settings) >> > --LeftHeader (overridden or new settings) >> > --RightHeader (overridden or new settings) >> > --Footer (overridden or new settings) >> > --FirstPageFooter (overridden or new settings) >> > --LeftFooter (overridden or new settings) >> > --RightFooter (overridden or new settings) >> > --List (overridden or new settings) >> > --BulletList1 (overridden or new settings) >> > --NumberList1 (overridden or new settings) >> > --BulletList2 (overridden or new settings) >> > --NumberList2 (overridden or new settings) >> > --BulletList3 (overridden or new settings) >> > --NumberList3 (overridden or new settings) >> > >> > 4/As a style-sheet writer or modifier, I want to lock a style-sheet to a >> > document template, so that only that style-sheet can be used, so the >> > documents produced are consistent. >> > >> > (personally, I'd like to see a way to lock out custom edits for selected >> > doc templates too, for complete document consistency and compatibility - >> > this is especially powerful for collaboratively authored docs) >> > >> > Aside from the implicated UI redesign, I think an extensive and >> > professional set of style-sheets would greatly help matters. >> > >> > Any thoughts? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Greg >> > >> > -- >> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org >> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ >> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> > deleted >> >> At first I though that when you said "style sheets" you were talking >> about templates... but you also use the word template. What do you >> refer as "style sheet"? >> >> I've never had problems with numbered lists (I mean, once I understood >> how they work...), but I agree that they are not clea
XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
Hi Kohei, hi Scott! Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're listening here (especially since I know your workload...)! Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida: > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? > > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... > > We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should > look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane > approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did > use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still > around in the code base though we are on their way out. > > So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely. As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue. For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML based UI declaration ... http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199 (see also the presentation download) Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some improvements about what we have today. Here, "ideally" mainly refers to its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting: http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html Cheers, Christoph PS: You may have noticed that my availability is a bit bad at the moment ... so sorry for not commenting the other threads at the moment "in time". -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?)
I've got a few new ideas in mind that we may be able to pull some of the code from vcl into... See the below excerpt from the 'New Layout Concept - Update' that I just posted: *> I'm working on that, too. From what I can see of the old graphical layout * *> utility that we use, there is no way for us to create this in an easy fashion. * *> What I think we can do, however, is to replace the old vcl library with * *> something new. I'm looking at using XUL instead, but the problem so far* *> that I'm running into is that XUL really prefers the backend code to be* *> mostly javascript. So what I'm thinking we may wish to do is to replace* *> vcl with something that has the same API but that uses custom xml, svg,* *> and css to describe the forms that we need it to make however this is* *> going to be a lot of work as I don't really see any other F/OSS libraries to* *> pull from... Any other suggestions would be really helpful!* Yours Truly, Scott R. Pledger On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 08:25, Kohei Yoshida wrote: > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? > > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... > > We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should > look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane > approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did > use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still > around in the code base though we are on their way out. > > So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely. > > Kohei > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] New Layout Concept - Update
I'm working on that, too. From what I can see of the old graphical layout utility that we use, there is no way for us to create this in an easy fashion. What I think we can do, however, is to replace the old vcl library with something new. I'm looking at using XUL instead, but the problem so far that I'm running into is that XUL really prefers the backend code to be mostly javascript. So what I'm thinking we may wish to do is to replace vcl with something that has the same API but that uses custom xml, svg, and css to describe the forms that we need it to make however this is going to be a lot of work as I don't really see any other F/OSS libraries to pull from... Any other suggestions would be really helpful! Yours Truly, Scott R. Pledger On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 08:35, Cyril Arnaud wrote: > That's a really nice mock up. > But how do we make it a reality now ? > > On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 15:44 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > > > > > > > I have done a bit more work on the layout concept I described in some > > earlier emails. Let me know what you think!! The File and View menus > are > > interactive when you view the presentation. > > > > http://pledgecomputers.com/LibreOffice/Redesign/Preview.odp > > > > Yours Truly, > > Scott Pledger > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] New Layout Concept - Update
That's a really nice mock up. But how do we make it a reality now ? On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 15:44 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > > > I have done a bit more work on the layout concept I described in some > earlier emails. Let me know what you think!! The File and View menus are > interactive when you view the presentation. > > http://pledgecomputers.com/LibreOffice/Redesign/Preview.odp > > Yours Truly, > Scott Pledger > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?)
On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: > Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? > Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still around in the code base though we are on their way out. So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely. Kohei -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Design Team Kick-Off Step 4: What We Need - Review, Please
Christoph Noack wrote: > @ Björn, Thorsten: I've CCed you, since you have been active in some > discussions here - could you please scan the table and provide some > feedback, please? My hope is that you may have a look at the sections: > * Deliverables and Work Results > * Cooperation and Communication With Other Teams > * LibreOffice Technical Basis > Hi Chris, looks lovely to me, really nothing missing FWICT - just of course wanting to stress the points of having technical means in place to make UX enhancements easier (aka layout dialogs), and that having a set of 'EasyHacks' also for the design tasks is critical. :) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposition to combine the Apply/Reset buttons
> My position on this is, that once we provide Revert or Undo button, > we'll (logically) have to add a Redo button, too. > So, another idea could again be a dual button, this time [ ← | → ] > (the icons should be those the global Undo/Redo function uses, too) -- > these would duplicate only those parts of global Undo/Redo that > concern the current dialog (e. g. what you were thinking about). I've updated the Wiki page to reflect this change. It's of course still at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/PropertiesButtonLayout > Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
