Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
here is a proposal. I hate it I don't have any better idea : a popup on libreoffice asking to feel the survey. I think, this is the BEST approach. This way instead of relying on a few sites who may have biased readers we will be able to get inputs from real users. If the pop-up is convincing enough we can get great feed-back. Just the way users were sending feedbacks for G+. Swapnil -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
On 11/26/2011 02:08 PM, alexander.wilms wrote: Hi everyone, Kévin, having this in 3.5 would be very helpful, but it shouldn't be too obstrusive. Maybe a simple link in the start center, saying We plan the redesign LibreOffice. Please help us in the decision process. does anyone here have experience with psychology regarding such surveys? I think. If it is obvious yet not obnoxious, people wont mind as long as it doesn't come in their way. I should also be visible so even the most ignorant users can participate. It can be at the start as well as an icon/button visible all the time so that they can participate. The language matters the most -- as it may convey the message that they are helping improve what they use or they way they want their loved app to be like. Additionally we could narrow down the questions which would be neccessary by using of insights from the summary of that survey. Brief yet cover all that we need. Its quite a task. Swapnil -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Hello Alexander, Björn Balazs (in cc) has the experience on surveys and psychology. As for including a survey pop up window in 3.5... In theory it's feasible but perhaps there are other -easier-ways? A blog or tweets by the Design team and /or TDF might be enough to attract enough testers. Best, Charles. 2011/11/26 alexander.wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.com Hi everyone, Kévin, having this in 3.5 would be very helpful, but it shouldn't be too obstrusive. Maybe a simple link in the start center, saying We plan the redesign LibreOffice. Please help us in the decision process. does anyone here have experience with psychology regarding such surveys? i guess the results depend on how we ask, e.g. whether a person likes certain features or not, or rather rates the on a scale; Should they also rate the overall concept and maybe be able to choose alternatives from Paulos proposal? Who set up the last survey? He/She/they should be able to give us some advice. Additionally we could narrow down the questions which would be neccessary by using of insights from the summary of that survey. Cheers Alex On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:40:30 +0100 Kévin PEIGNOT lt;peignot.ke...@kpeignot.frgt; wrote If this solution is chosen, we could ask for implementation of this function in LibO 3.5 what do you think ? It should not be very difficult to do I think. Then, obviously the survey would be online (Usability method maybe ? It worked great last time). When we know what people can like, we then could start brainstroming each part one by one, thinking about ergonomy. Obviously, the survey could include the differents parts of Citrus UI as others mock-up. I think the more diversity we ask, the better we can see what people like. Kévin 2011/11/26 Swapnil Bhartiya lt;swapnil.bhart...@gmail.comgt; gt; gt; here is a proposal. I hate it I don't have any better idea : a popup on gt;gt; libreoffice asking to feel the survey. gt;gt; gt; gt; I think, this is the BEST approach. This way instead of relying on a few gt; sites who may have biased readers we will be able to get inputs from real gt; users. If the pop-up is convincing enough we can get great feed-back. Just gt; the way users were sending feedbacks for G+. gt; gt; gt; Swapnil gt; gt; -- gt; Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.** libreoffice.orglt;design%2bh...@global.libreoffice.orggt; gt; Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** gt; unsubscribe/lt; http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/gt; gt; Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** gt; Netiquette lt;http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquettegt; gt; List archive: http://listarchives.** libreoffice.org/global/design/lt;http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/gt ; gt; All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be gt; deleted gt; gt; -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
As for including a survey pop up window in 3.5... In theory it's feasible but perhaps there are other -easier-ways? A blog or tweets by the Design team and /or TDF might be enough to attract enough testers. That could be additional, but don't think a majority of LibreOffice users may even know about that blog or TDF. Such a survey will be influenced by a small sample of users who are aware. In-app survey may be the most effective one. Even if we use any Linux site it will reach out only to that particular audience. We need to be careful with blogs with are dominated by users who are clueless about what they are talking and just want something that looks like Mac or iOS. Swapnil -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Hi all, we can make any survey and I am more than willing to help (Yes, I am even a psychologist ;) ) BUT: Just as at least Greg and Christoph said, we will not get anywhere concerning the issue of this thread by conducting a survey. Normal users will not understand what we want from them. They cannot experience the UI. So they have to imagine what this UI would mean to them - and this will lead to a major variance in data - and the results will be worthless (not even mentioning the amount of reading that would be needed by the users, to at least be able to imagine the personal impact). SO: Surveys yes, but we have to do them more intelligently, to get the answers we need to know. And this will never be only one survey nor will it be only surveys. Surveys are only one piece of the puzzle. As a personal remark to this thread: A complete redesign of the interface is not on the agendy of any LO-developer (as far as I know). So, please do not waste your or anybody elses time with creating big pictures. We will get to the point where this is constructive - but at the moment it is just the opposite of it. If anyone wants to do something really helpfull: try to find and document the small improvements that are possible to make LO rock even more. I truely believe in the power of evolution in the development of LO. Any attempt of a revolution will need to back-uped by much more than a thread in this list or even a survey resulting in a positiv feedback to any solution. Saying all of this: If you still want to go for a survey, I am more than willing to help, to get the best out of it :) Cheers, Björn P.S. I do love the idea of a pop-up in LO to motivate users to participate, but this actually needs to be done intelligently. I will post my thoughts about this some time. If anybody actually wants to start working on this, please ping me! Am Samstag, 26. November 2011, 15:32:13 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Hello Alexander, Björn Balazs (in cc) has the experience on surveys and psychology. As for including a survey pop up window in 3.5... In theory it's feasible but perhaps there are other -easier-ways? A blog or tweets by the Design team and /or TDF might be enough to attract enough testers. Best, Charles. 2011/11/26 alexander.wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.com Hi everyone, Kévin, having this in 3.5 would be very helpful, but it shouldn't be too obstrusive. Maybe a simple link in the start center, saying We plan the redesign LibreOffice. Please help us in the decision process. does anyone here have experience with psychology regarding such surveys? i guess the results depend on how we ask, e.g. whether a person likes certain features or not, or rather rates the on a scale; Should they also rate the overall concept and maybe be able to choose alternatives from Paulos proposal? Who set up the last survey? He/She/they should be able to give us some advice. Additionally we could narrow down the questions which would be neccessary by using of insights from the summary of that survey. Cheers Alex On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:40:30 +0100 Kévin PEIGNOT lt;peignot.ke...@kpeignot.frgt; wrote If this solution is chosen, we could ask for implementation of this function in LibO 3.5 what do you think ? It should not be very difficult to do I think. Then, obviously the survey would be online (Usability method maybe ? It worked great last time). When we know what people can like, we then could start brainstroming each part one by one, thinking about ergonomy. Obviously, the survey could include the differents parts of Citrus UI as others mock-up. I think the more diversity we ask, the better we can see what people like. Kévin 2011/11/26 Swapnil Bhartiya lt;swapnil.bhart...@gmail.comgt; gt; gt; here is a proposal. I hate it I don't have any better idea : a popup on gt;gt; libreoffice asking to feel the survey. gt;gt; gt; gt; I think, this is the BEST approach. This way instead of relying on a few gt; sites who may have biased readers we will be able to get inputs from real gt; users. If the pop-up is convincing enough we can get great feed-back. Just gt; the way users were sending feedbacks for G+. gt; gt; gt; Swapnil gt; gt; -- gt; Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.** libreoffice.orglt;design%2bh...@global.libreoffice.orggt; gt; Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** gt; unsubscribe/lt; http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/gt ; gt; Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** gt; Netiquette lt;http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquettegt; gt; List archive: http://listarchives.** libreoffice.org/global/design/lt;http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/gl obal/design/gt ; gt; All messages sent to this list
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
On 11/25/2011 01:19 PM, Greg wrote: I don't want to rain on your parade but (as a UX practitioner of 20 yrs), surveys are almost the least effective means to validate a UI design, especially if UI behaviour is included in the investigation. A dozen face to face interviews supported by static or even active prototypes, conducted with a variety of users would yield much more useful and reliable results. If you want to pat yourself on the back and tell everyone that 9 out of 10 users prefer the new LibreButtonOMatic, then a survey will give you that but whether 9 out of 10 users actually do will be unrelated to that statistic. Surely the UXers in the team know people who use these type of products (in fact a sprinkling of users of competitive products would add value). I'd be happy to work with other UXers to plan the investigation and conduct a couple of structured interviews. Regards, Noh The problem for us is how to get any user input. The problem we have is logistical, how are the interviews conducted. Completely agree :) Alex On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:38:22 +0100 Charles-H. Schulz lt;charles.sch...@documentfoundation.orggt; wrote A survey would be a great idea; in fact, it would help with asking ourselves the right question for the spec; in short, it would be a real work of User Experience. Even better news: I think Christoph Noack and Bjoern Balazs know just how to set up such a survey, but I might be perhaps too optimistic :-) Best, Charles. On 25/11/2011 00:00, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote: gt; Maybe we could publish a survey asking, for each part of Citrus UI gt; (explained in a few word) what people think about it ? As we did with ourgt; first survey ? gt; gt; On each page a part of the survey, with a brief summary and if possible agt; mockup. And why not at the end asking a global impression note. It's notgt; spec, but it permit to know what people think of the globals ideas ?gt; gt; Kévin gt; gt; 2011/11/24 Andrew Pullinslt;android2...@gmail.comgt; gt; gt;gt; Charles, Kevin, every one, gt;gt; gt;gt; gt;gt;gt; Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one wrtinggt;gt;gt; specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will get done.gt;gt;gt; gt;gt; gt;gt; ok yes we do need to start on some specifications so that we can getgt;gt; started, but we have not talked about it all that much. first we needgt;gt; to decide on what we all agree on and change what we do not. if we get moregt;gt; people to agree with some things I would start some specifications, but Igt;gt; still don't know exactly what is needed to write one. could someone write agt;gt; templet on what needs to be written. that would really help. till thengt;gt; there are still some people that have not said what they do not like aboutgt;gt; Citrus. if you wait any longer we'er going to have to just go with Citrus. gt;gt; gt;gt; It looks like we need to blog so that people don't get their hopes up. :-/gt;gt; gt;gt; gt;gt; all the more reason to get this started NOW. and before you guys say it ONEgt;gt; MORE TIME. I know that we can not get this done in one shot, and that wegt;gt; need to do this ONE STEP AT A TIME. but now that we have some press on thisgt;gt; and people know that we are working on this we NEED to get things rolling.gt;gt; gt;gt; Andrew gt;gt; gt;gt; -- gt;gt; Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.orggt;gt; Problems? gt;gt; http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ gt;gt; Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquettegt;gt; List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/gt;gt; All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot begt;gt; deleted gt;gt; gt;gt; gt; -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Hi Kevin, Grek, hi all!
I've planned to stay away from the computer today, but I think that
thread is reason enough to answer nevertheless ;-)
Am Freitag, den 25.11.2011, 19:29 +0100 schrieb Kévin PEIGNOT:
I agree, but One think is sure : We must try to do an ergonomic AND sexy
interface. And a survey could help us find what people like.
Yes, a simple mockup survey does tell us what people might like
(theoretically), but it doesn't tell us whether a complex design is
ergonomic, usable, or does fit to user's real needs ... I assume that's
what Greg wanted to say.
By the way, thanks Greg for your kind offer ... it would be great to
hear what you think how we could (pre-)validate Citrus (or any other
proposal).
From my point-of-view - with regard to Citrus and surveys:
* Either you are an experienced interviewer (listening to what
people usually not say), or ...
* We use a survey to get a very general indication whether it
makes sense to continue working on Citrus (that would help a
bit, but since most people don't like the current UI we don't
need to ask that *g*), or ...
* We focus on carefully selected areas of Citrus. In such cases,
one could e.g. describe show pictures and describe workflows
people need to rate. Then you get feedback on design
decisions (not: visual design).
There are lots of examples where surveys asked for product feedback
(with a good intention), whilst making the updated product worse.
Whether it is a special magazine (the publisher asked what topics are
missing, people added lots of ideas, it became a general purpose
magazine without focus and much less user interest) or cars (the
manufacturer asked what configuration options users wanted to have,
people wanted all kinds of stuff, and disliked the product finally
because it was hard to use).
One last thing: If you ask people, then you have to make sure that you
use the right ones. Otherwise you get feedback that seems to be valid,
but is not, unfortunately.
So back to the initial question - do we need a user survey (now), or
should we continue whether we (as the Design Team) think that its
valuable.
If the latter, then I think it would be helpful to have all contributors
speak up (and provide a yes/no with some explanation).
Cheers,
Christoph
Kévin
2011/11/25 Greg noh.spam.j...@gmail.com
I don't want to rain on your parade but (as a UX practitioner of 20 yrs),
surveys are almost the least effective means to validate a UI design,
especially if UI behaviour is included in the investigation. A dozen face
to
face interviews supported by static or even active prototypes, conducted
with
a variety of users would yield much more useful and reliable results.
If you want to pat yourself on the back and tell everyone that 9 out of 10
users prefer the new LibreButtonOMatic, then a survey will give you that
but
whether 9 out of 10 users actually do will be unrelated to that statistic.
Surely the UXers in the team know people who use these type of products (in
fact a sprinkling of users of competitive products would add value). I'd be
happy to work with other UXers to plan the investigation and conduct a
couple
of structured interviews.
Regards,
Noh
Completely agree :)
Alex
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:38:22 +0100 Charles-H. Schulz
lt;charles.sch...@documentfoundation.orggt; wrote
A survey would be a great idea; in fact, it would help with asking
ourselves the right question for the spec; in short, it would be a real
work of User Experience.
Even better news: I think Christoph Noack and Bjoern Balazs know just
how to set up such a survey, but I might be perhaps too optimistic :-)
Best,
Charles.
On 25/11/2011 00:00, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote:
gt; Maybe we could publish a survey asking, for each part of Citrus UI
gt; (explained in a few word) what people think about it ? As we did
with
our gt; first survey ?
gt;
gt; On each page a part of the survey, with a brief summary and if
possible a gt; mockup. And why not at the end asking a global
impression note. It's not gt; spec, but it permit to know what people
think of the globals ideas ? gt;
gt; Kévin
gt;
gt; 2011/11/24 Andrew Pullins lt;android2...@gmail.comgt;
gt;
gt;gt; Charles, Kevin, every one,
gt;gt;
gt;gt;
gt;gt;gt; Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one
wrting gt;gt;gt; specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will
get done. gt;gt;gt;
gt;gt;
gt;gt; ok yes we do need to start on some specifications so that we can
get gt;gt; started, but we have not talked about it all that much.
first
we need gt;gt; to decide on what we all agree on and change what we do
not. if we get more gt;gt; people to agree with some things I would
start some specifications, but I gt;gt; still don't know exactly what
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Oh boy. How many times did we explain we cannot change the interface in one shot? Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one wrting specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will get done. It looks like we need to blog so that people don't get their hopes up. :-/ Best, Charles. Le 24 nov. 2011 21:44, Kévin PEIGNOT peignot.ke...@kpeignot.fr a écrit : Hy you wan't feedback on Citrus : http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/citrus-a-libreoffice-interface-for-today/ This is a good start guys ;) Kévin 2011/11/21 alexander.wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.com Hi, since I just received Kévins mail, I now took the time to browse Mireks proposals more deeply and I have to agree, that's just what I'd like to see :). There are many great things in those drafts, but I especially like are the color codes and the command reorganization. In addition to the new handling of headers this would make LOs UI much more comfortable to use. Another aspect I'd like to see integrated are those style groups, but in my opinion a little previw like in Word would be nice, maybe as a popout or that the styles get applied when hovering over each of them. In my opinion, there should be two selections though, one for the group style used (e.g. My favorite selfmade style) and one for the formatting that gets applied (e.g. Heading 1, Table etc.). I'm not sure but maybe you've already adresses this aspect. I generally like the idea of focusing on actual writing and letting the formatting be automated or taken care of, thats why I like the ability to export them and the new template manager, which could maybe even being integrated with the online repository, just like the fonts. Still, there are some issues like flickering icons when hovering over them or flshing black background colors when editing a text in Impress. Those aren't immediately related to this proposal, but I hope this could be eliminated, too. Or have these issues already been adressed in the current development branch? I am personally looking forward to the command reorg, hopefully we can start working this out very soon :) Cheers Alex On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:07:06 +0100 Kévin PEIGNOT lt;peignot.ke...@kpeignot.frgt; wrote 2011/10/30 Astron lt;heinzless...@googlemail.comgt; gt; Hi everyone, gt; gt; a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus proposal. gt; So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we gt; don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that it gt; helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a regular gt; reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short gt; descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems wrong to gt; you, feel free to correct me. gt; Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page: gt; To gain time, I choosed to use the same structure. gt; gt; * Ellipsis menu: gt; I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does gt; currently; for executing commands it is also more functional. gt; Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via gt; drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of accessibility gt; solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something. gt; I must say I agree with this. It's a great idea. Here a proposal of solution : At the end of the toolbar, after the menu button, menu, integrate an ellement with a ? button. When a user click on it, a pop-up appear with the tip, saying that drag'n-dropping is the way to proceed * Page/slide handles: gt; I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597). There's gt; a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it gt; zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all for gt; Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't gt; include it in his proposals). gt; Honestly I don't really see what is the point there. Do you have a detailled article/page somewhere, I didn't find (I suppose I didn't searched in the right place) gt; gt; * Continuously scrollable slides: gt; Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document, gt; however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other gt; element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do then? gt; Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the two gt; slides? I'm sceptical. gt; I agree, I usually have some parts of my slides that are out of the slide, sometimes below, because it can be a movable picture that come half from the bottom SO personally, I think it's a bad idea. gt; * Add page/slide: gt; I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those gt; programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar. gt; For Writer, it would be
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
I just agree it can't be done in one time, it doesn't, but it's a good way
to have feedback anyway ;)
2011/11/24 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
Oh boy. How many times did we explain we cannot change the interface in one
shot?
Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one wrting
specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will get done.
It looks like we need to blog so that people don't get their hopes up. :-/
Best,
Charles.
Le 24 nov. 2011 21:44, Kévin PEIGNOT peignot.ke...@kpeignot.fr a
écrit :
Hy you wan't feedback on Citrus :
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/citrus-a-libreoffice-interface-for-today/
This is a good start guys ;)
Kévin
2011/11/21 alexander.wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.com
Hi,
since I just received Kévins mail, I now took the time to browse Mireks
proposals more deeply and I have to agree, that's just what I'd like to
see
:).
There are many great things in those drafts, but I especially like are
the
color codes and the command reorganization. In addition to the new
handling
of headers this would make LOs UI much more comfortable to use.
Another aspect I'd like to see integrated are those style groups, but
in
my opinion a little previw like in Word would be nice, maybe as a
popout
or
that the styles get applied when hovering over each of them. In my
opinion,
there should be two selections though, one for the group style used
(e.g.
My favorite selfmade style) and one for the formatting that gets
applied
(e.g. Heading 1, Table etc.). I'm not sure but maybe you've already
adresses this aspect.
I generally like the idea of focusing on actual writing and letting the
formatting be automated or taken care of, thats why I like the ability
to
export them and the new template manager, which could maybe even being
integrated with the online repository, just like the fonts.
Still, there are some issues like flickering icons when hovering over
them
or flshing black background colors when editing a text in Impress.
Those
aren't immediately related to this proposal, but I hope this could be
eliminated, too. Or have these issues already been adressed in the
current
development branch?
I am personally looking forward to the command reorg, hopefully we can
start working this out very soon :)
Cheers
Alex
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:07:06 +0100 Kévin PEIGNOT
lt;peignot.ke...@kpeignot.frgt; wrote
2011/10/30 Astron lt;heinzless...@googlemail.comgt;
gt; Hi everyone,
gt;
gt; a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus
proposal.
gt; So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we
gt; don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that
it
gt; helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a
regular
gt; reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short
gt; descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems
wrong
to
gt; you, feel free to correct me.
gt; Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page:
gt;
To gain time, I choosed to use the same structure.
gt;
gt; * Ellipsis menu:
gt; I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does
gt; currently; for executing commands it is also more functional.
gt; Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via
gt; drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of
accessibility
gt; solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something.
gt;
I must say I agree with this. It's a great idea. Here a proposal of
solution : At the end of the toolbar, after the menu button, menu,
integrate an ellement with a ? button. When a user click on it, a
pop-up
appear with the tip, saying that drag'n-dropping is the way to proceed
* Page/slide handles:
gt; I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597).
There's
gt; a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it
gt; zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all
for
gt; Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't
gt; include it in his proposals).
gt;
Honestly I don't really see what is the point there. Do you have a
detailled article/page somewhere, I didn't find (I suppose I didn't
searched in the right place)
gt;
gt; * Continuously scrollable slides:
gt; Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document,
gt; however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other
gt; element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do
then?
gt; Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the
two
gt; slides? I'm sceptical.
gt;
I agree, I usually have some parts of my slides that are out of the
slide, sometimes below, because it can
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Maybe we could publish a survey asking, for each part of Citrus UI (explained in a few word) what people think about it ? As we did with our first survey ? On each page a part of the survey, with a brief summary and if possible a mockup. And why not at the end asking a global impression note. It's not spec, but it permit to know what people think of the globals ideas ? Kévin 2011/11/24 Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com Charles, Kevin, every one, Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one wrting specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will get done. ok yes we do need to start on some specifications so that we can get started, but we have not talked about it all that much. first we need to decide on what we all agree on and change what we do not. if we get more people to agree with some things I would start some specifications, but I still don't know exactly what is needed to write one. could someone write a templet on what needs to be written. that would really help. till then there are still some people that have not said what they do not like about Citrus. if you wait any longer we'er going to have to just go with Citrus. It looks like we need to blog so that people don't get their hopes up. :-/ all the more reason to get this started NOW. and before you guys say it ONE MORE TIME. I know that we can not get this done in one shot, and that we need to do this ONE STEP AT A TIME. but now that we have some press on this and people know that we are working on this we NEED to get things rolling. Andrew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
2011/10/30 Astron heinzless...@googlemail.com Hi everyone, a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus proposal. So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that it helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a regular reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems wrong to you, feel free to correct me. Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page: To gain time, I choosed to use the same structure. * Ellipsis menu: I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does currently; for executing commands it is also more functional. Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of accessibility solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something. I must say I agree with this. It's a great idea. Here a proposal of solution : At the end of the toolbar, after the menu button, menu, integrate an ellement with a ? button. When a user click on it, a pop-up appear with the tip, saying that drag'n-dropping is the way to proceed * Page/slide handles: I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597). There's a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all for Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't include it in his proposals). Honestly I don't really see what is the point there. Do you have a detailled article/page somewhere, I didn't find (I suppose I didn't searched in the right place) * Continuously scrollable slides: Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document, however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do then? Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the two slides? I'm sceptical. I agree, I usually have some parts of my slides that are out of the slide, sometimes below, because it can be a movable picture that come half from the bottom SO personally, I think it's a bad idea. * Add page/slide: I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar. For Writer, it would be similarly useful, but we'd also need more complexity: it'd need at least a Add page and an Add Section button (unless there is any way in which we can make those two commands the same). It's just great as it is in the mock-up. It's simple, and exactly were you need it. But I think that even if this is a great point, It should stay in the left insert toolbar too. (some people will search it there I think) *Float bar: I'm absolutely in ! Then in the case the element you select take all the screen, maybe putting the in the top of the element : On the right by default, with a button that switch it to the left if you want it there (or maybe by drag and dropping the float bar from right to left ?). I don't have time to make a mockup, but if you want one just ask I will try during the week-end * Insert bar: This is an idea from Ooo 1.0, I think. I'd love to know why it was abandoned, then, because it probably is a good idea..? Personally I always use it, and in the left of the screen, just as in your proposal. Too useful ! So I don't see why it has been abandonnated. Maybe it wasn't used enough according the clic-map. * Live preview: If it means updating the whole document I think it's a bad idea (I suppose it would need too much resource). But if it's in a preview box, then, I'm in. One think that I don't like today is that in the format toolbar, the fonts are described by there name, no preview. This is the little start of a live preview. * Color-coded icons: Good idea, I think your color scheme proposal is great. Then, I think we should brainstorm about it : for me, Red means *Hy, I need attention *, so maybe this color shouldn't be used ? More of that, I'm not sure that this is so useful : The icons concerning text shoud appear only when text is selected, same with images, videos... what do you think ? PS : Re thinking the thing : I was wrong : you can select zones with both pictures and audio * Reduced standard toolbar: I almost agree, except that I don't understand where you would put print/export in this case ? I personnaly use these two options every time (I export to PDF every 30 minutes because of problems I had with odt files in the past) * Drop-down buttons: No special thought. To be honest I don't know if it's a good or bad idea. * Sorting out commands: Good principles, basically, but probably too rough to be usable in their current form. Point two (no greyed-out buttons) is contradictory to the reasoning found under Reduced standard toolbar (click-able
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Hi, since I just received Kévins mail, I now took the time to browse Mireks proposals more deeply and I have to agree, that's just what I'd like to see :). There are many great things in those drafts, but I especially like are the color codes and the command reorganization. In addition to the new handling of headers this would make LOs UI much more comfortable to use. Another aspect I'd like to see integrated are those style groups, but in my opinion a little previw like in Word would be nice, maybe as a popout or that the styles get applied when hovering over each of them. In my opinion, there should be two selections though, one for the group style used (e.g. My favorite selfmade style) and one for the formatting that gets applied (e.g. Heading 1, Table etc.). I'm not sure but maybe you've already adresses this aspect. I generally like the idea of focusing on actual writing and letting the formatting be automated or taken care of, thats why I like the ability to export them and the new template manager, which could maybe even being integrated with the online repository, just like the fonts. Still, there are some issues like flickering icons when hovering over them or flshing black background colors when editing a text in Impress. Those aren't immediately related to this proposal, but I hope this could be eliminated, too. Or have these issues already been adressed in the current development branch? I am personally looking forward to the command reorg, hopefully we can start working this out very soon :) Cheers Alex On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:07:06 +0100 Kévin PEIGNOT lt;peignot.ke...@kpeignot.frgt; wrote 2011/10/30 Astron lt;heinzless...@googlemail.comgt; gt; Hi everyone, gt; gt; a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus proposal. gt; So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we gt; don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that it gt; helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a regular gt; reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short gt; descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems wrong to gt; you, feel free to correct me. gt; Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page: gt; To gain time, I choosed to use the same structure. gt; gt; * Ellipsis menu: gt; I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does gt; currently; for executing commands it is also more functional. gt; Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via gt; drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of accessibility gt; solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something. gt; I must say I agree with this. It's a great idea. Here a proposal of solution : At the end of the toolbar, after the menu button, menu, integrate an ellement with a ? button. When a user click on it, a pop-up appear with the tip, saying that drag'n-dropping is the way to proceed * Page/slide handles: gt; I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597). There's gt; a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it gt; zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all for gt; Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't gt; include it in his proposals). gt; Honestly I don't really see what is the point there. Do you have a detailled article/page somewhere, I didn't find (I suppose I didn't searched in the right place) gt; gt; * Continuously scrollable slides: gt; Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document, gt; however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other gt; element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do then? gt; Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the two gt; slides? I'm sceptical. gt; I agree, I usually have some parts of my slides that are out of the slide, sometimes below, because it can be a movable picture that come half from the bottom SO personally, I think it's a bad idea. gt; * Add page/slide: gt; I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those gt; programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar. gt; For Writer, it would be similarly useful, but we'd also need more gt; complexity: it'd need at least a Add page and an Add Section gt; button (unless there is any way in which we can make those two gt; commands the same). gt; gt; It's just great as it is in the mock-up. It's simple, and exactly were you need it. But I think that even if this is a great point, It should stay in the left insert toolbar too. (some people will search it there I think) *Float bar: gt; I'm absolutely in ! Then in the case the element you select take all the screen, maybe putting the in the top of the element : On the right by default, with a button that switch it to the left if you want it there (or maybe by drag and dropping the float bar from right to left ?). I don't have time to make a mockup,
[libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Hi Andrew, everyone, Am Dienstag, 1. November 2011 schrieb Andrew Pullins : Astron, team a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus proposal. So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that it helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a regular reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems wrong to you, feel free to correct me. Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page: thank you so much Astron for taking the time and starting this. I was begging to think that no one would help with this. some people have said that they have problems with it but have not said what. so thank you. I would read his blog, he goes into so much more detail. plus you get the evolution of it and ideas that he thought of but has scraped but may still be useful. * Ellipsis menu: I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does currently; for executing commands it is also more functional. Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of accessibility solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something. Mirek this is what I was trying to say about the Ellipsis menu. I as well I like it but it is not immediately/at all apparent that you can drag and drop the menu items. I do not know how we can fix this. I guess there could be a Customize button at the bottom of the Ellipsis menu then. :) The ellipsis menu wouldn't be the only way a toolbar could be customized. If the ellipsis menu was implemented in today's LibreOffice, there would still be a link to the Customize dialog in the menubar and the toolbar's right-click menu. ok but what do you think about putting a customize or like the current viable buttons. * Page/slide handles: I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597). There's a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all for Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't include it in his proposals). for the zooming I have mocked that it would just get pushed to the side. after a serten zoom level it could go above the page but that mite be weird. as for not working for calc are you refering to not being able to select a print page? if not and you are talking about selecting all the cells you can do this now, just double click on the top right corner where 1 and A meat. if you are refereing to the page numbers, there are going to be tabs still at the bottom like it is now. and as for Mirek not using it so much that where I have stepped in and im sure the rest of the team will help. the hard part is figuring out how the menus and tool bars will work, he has made some grate mock ups for writer and impress but its hard traslating the current menus into his menus. It shouldn't be in Calc, at least not with how Calc works now. I don't think Calc lets you change page formatting for each page separately, so being able to select separate pages would be of no use. (You can select the whole table with the blank top-left corner cell, though.) And Calc already has a way of showing page number under Page view, different from how all the other LibO apps show page number. like I said you can select all the cells at once, but yes you would not want to format this way. well you could do every other row/column a different color formatting, but this is the only thing you would want to format the entire sheet for. * Continuously scrollable slides: Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document, however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do then? Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the two slides? I'm sceptical. I was thinking of this my self and have come up with some things that mite be a good option. proposal so your on slide one, slide two would be graid out to indicate that you are only editing slide one. all things off to the side of slide one will not effect slide 2. once you scroll down and the majority of the screen is off slide 1 and on slide 2, all slide 1 things out side the slide will disappear, slide 1 will fade to gray and slide 2 will unfade. what do you think about this? I like it, but I wouldn't fade it to gray entirely, I'd just make it more transparent/have less contrast, so that you could still see two slides at once, but you could immediately tell which one was active. * Add page/slide: I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar. For Writer, it would be similarly
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
HI, If you could write down the places that need updating, that'd be great. I have so much stuff to add and don't really know where to begin. well some of the things on your LibreWiki page has gone with out an update for a while. things have changed so much since you last changed it. as for what can change the Add page/slide button and Live preview sections are things that immediately jump out as needs to be changed. Here I mean right within the main application frame/section, where the focus is, where the author is working. I may be using the word wrong, though. thanks for clearing that up. I figured that was what you mean but was not sure. There is an insertion bar on the side for Impress/Draw (it's more important there than in Writer, IMHO). I don't think I understand the question... in your reponse to Astron who said * Add page/slide: I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar. you replied There is no sidebar for Impress/Draw in Citrus (unless you mean the Navigator). The point of this button is to have a button inline, so that a user didn't have to have a sidebar open to get this core functionality. That's especially useful when working on a small screen and/or with two windows side-by-side (which I have quite often). I wanted to know if you were referring to the insertion bar. I thought that the insertions bar was made for all the programs. ok so you like what I did in my latest mock up. could you reply to my email thread about the changes in the mock up i made. I know that you do not have a lot of time on your hands. lets keep this one for complaints and that one about the mockups. OK, definitely. Have to find it first, though. if you need my addition here it is [1] Tables are green in Writer as well, yes. And images orange. That way, you always know what you have selected, what you're working with, and you start associating green with tables and orange with images and yellow with shapes. And that way, you'll remember that Calc (green) is the table program, Draw (yellow) the shape program, etc. I personally don't want to have a different color scheme for the different LibO modules, I want them to feel like parts of a whole, with just different papers. I would also like to conform to the system theme as much as possible (very important on Linux). I just thought that it would look cool. but I see what you are trying to achieve with the color schemes. [1] https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=vpid=explorerchrome=truesrcid=0B7y5FMHPsyaNN2RiNzU1MTItZTAyNy00NmZlLTk1MGQtY2VlZmQ1OTYyOTM3hl=en_US -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
Hi Astron, everyone, 2011/10/30 Astron heinzless...@googlemail.com Hi everyone, a few days ago, Andrew asked for feedback on Mirek's Citrus proposal. So, here, I want to start a thread on what I/we like and what I/we don't like (about the desktop/laptop proposal), in the hope that it helps Mirek to refine his proposal. Please note, I am not a regular reader of Mirek's blog and my assumptions are based on the short descriptions from the wiki, so if anything on this list seems wrong to you, feel free to correct me. Here we go, structure is as on Mirek2's wiki page: * Ellipsis menu: I like the idea and it looks much better (cleaner) than it does currently; for executing commands it is also more functional. Here's what I don't like: that you can customise your toolbar via drag-and-drop is not made visible at all; for users of accessibility solutions there seems to be no way to add or remove something. The ellipsis menu wouldn't be the only way a toolbar could be customized. If the ellipsis menu was implemented in today's LibreOffice, there would still be a link to the Customize dialog in the menubar and the toolbar's right-click menu. * Page/slide handles: I like the idea (so much I opened a bug about it – fdo#38597). There's a lot to discuss, though, before this can be implemented (how it zooms, how it acts, etc.). Also, the proposal doesn't work at all for Calc (which Mirek explained, he uses so seldomly that he didn't include it in his proposals). It shouldn't be in Calc, at least not with how Calc works now. I don't think Calc lets you change page formatting for each page separately, so being able to select separate pages would be of no use. (You can select the whole table with the blank top-left corner cell, though.) And Calc already has a way of showing page number under Page view, different from how all the other LibO apps show page number. * Continuously scrollable slides: Not a bad idea for the read-only mode. When editing a document, however, there will sometimes be the case that an image or other element would overlap into the next slide. What should LibO do then? Push the slide further below? Cut the element off in between the two slides? I'm sceptical. There are two ways it could go: - Keep it shown on both slides, and leave cropping to the user. - Keep the element shown on one slide only. If the user wanted to have it on both slides, he would simply duplicate it. I think the latter would be the ideal way of going about it, as it would keep the functionality the same and therefore there would be no compatibility probems between LibO versions. The object would show up only on one slide, that slide being the one it was created in (if it was a shape, this would be the slide in which the cursor was placed initially) or dragged to (that is, on the slide where the cursor stopped). * Add page/slide: I can see this being very useful in Impress and Draw, but in those programs, I would probably put this button into the sidebar. There is no sidebar for Impress/Draw in Citrus (unless you mean the Navigator). The point of this button is to have a button inline, so that a user didn't have to have a sidebar open to get this core functionality. That's especially useful when working on a small screen and/or with two windows side-by-side (which I have quite often). For Writer, it would be similarly useful, but we'd also need more complexity: it'd need at least a Add page and an Add Section button (unless there is any way in which we can make those two commands the same). It's in the more recent proposal (add page is centered on the left half, add section on the right half). :) *Float bar: I'm not sure that I heavily subscribe to this – there is a similar bar in the Pencil extension for Firefox that I use for mock-ups that pops up when one edits certain text fields. I think the most important aspect for the float bar is that it keeps a large enough distance from the element, so it doesn't annoy the user or gets in the way; and still is not positioned so far from the element that the user thinks it doesn't belong o the element any more. There are a few other positioning questions that need to be solved: if the element covers the entire screen, where would the float bar be least in the way (it can either cover the element itself or cover the docked toolbars or maybe could be positioned vertically) ... what's the best option? The whole point of the float bar is to be as close to the selection without covering it, so as to minimize mouse distance. That's the reason for having it. Otherwise, there is no difference between it and the toolbar -- it can only contain the same commands as the toolbar. And just like the toolbar, it could be hidden/shown in the View menu. (It would show up on any selection, it wouldn't discriminate.) * Insert bar: This is an idea from Ooo 1.0, I think. I'd love to know why it was abandoned, then, because it probably is a
