Frederic Muller wrote:
On 06/07/2011 04:53 PM, Rodrigo Moya wrote:
Also, while I'm not a designer, yesterday I wanted to propose some new
stuff, and it was easy to get the design team to find a solution for
proposals (https://live.gnome.org/Design/Proposals ), so from my (short)
On 06/10/2011 05:49 PM, Allan Day wrote:
Were there any UX testing report available that motivated this decision?
This kind of statement implies that if designers don't scientifically
prove the validity of their work they aren't allowed to do it at all.
More user testing would be great, but
Hi!
(Just if people think I am discussing here because it makes me somehow
happier - no!)
yesterday I asked the same question (where to follow design discussions,
apart from IRC), and I was told to monitor https://live.gnome.org/Design
and children pages, which is enough to get a peak of what
On 06/07/2011 04:53 PM, Rodrigo Moya wrote:
Also, while I'm not a designer, yesterday I wanted to propose some new
stuff, and it was easy to get the design team to find a solution for
proposals (https://live.gnome.org/Design/Proposals ), so from my (short)
experience they seem to be open to
As a foundation member and supporter of GNOME I don't even know myself
how to give a feedback that matters and join the hundreds unhappy
contributors with this decision (users spend hours looking at how they
can power off their machine, talk about good UX...), nor can I point
anyone to a
Hi,
Xan Lopez wrote:
I think what is really doing damage to the community is this kind of
hyperbolic accusation around the design team that seems to be in vogue
lately, to be honest.
My apologies.
This is very far from tone and target from when I first got involved in
this thread (and
On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 07:24 +1200, John Stowers wrote:
On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 13:42 +0100, Allan Day wrote:
Dave Neary wrote:
Hi,
So, in short, I would like the design team to act like the gnome-utils
team.
GNOME design has all the equivalent facilities [1, 2, 3] excluding
2011/6/7 Rodrigo Moya rodr...@gnome-db.org:
yesterday I asked the same question (where to follow design discussions,
apart from IRC), and I was told to monitor https://live.gnome.org/Design
and children pages, which is enough to get a peak of what they are doing
indeed.
And this only comes up
that the
team is a driving force behind that initiative (though I'm pretty sure
they all think it's a good idea).
I'm sorry but GNOME OS is a very good example of how interaction
between design team and GNOME community is failing :
- there has been no communication with the community since William
On 2011-06-07 at 11:42, Christophe Fergeau wrote:
So what about some kind of FAQ about the design team so that everyone
is on the same line, and to make sure everyone has the same level of
information?
and where should we put this FAQ? on the wiki, which clearly is not
enough, since a page
(all in the open: see [1]), I wouldn't say that the
team is a driving force behind that initiative (though I'm pretty sure
they all think it's a good idea).
I'm sorry but GNOME OS is a very good example of how interaction
between design team and GNOME community is failing :
- there has been
2011/6/7 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com:
On 2011-06-07 at 11:42, Christophe Fergeau wrote:
So what about some kind of FAQ about the design team so that everyone
is on the same line, and to make sure everyone has the same level of
information?
and where should we put this FAQ? on the wiki,
Lapo Calamandrei wrote on 06/06/11 17:20:
...
2011/6/6 Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org:
...
I feel that the current operation of the design team is hurting our
relationship with Canonical, who also have designers who have, I
believe, failed to influence design discussions in the same measure as
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Allan Day allanp...@gmail.com wrote:
Frederic Crozat wrote:
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Allan Day allanp...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry but GNOME OS is a very good example of how interaction
between design team and GNOME community is failing :
- there has
2011/6/7 Matthew Paul Thomas m...@postinbox.com:
Lapo Calamandrei wrote on 06/06/11 17:20:
...
2011/6/6 Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org:
...
I feel that the current operation of the design team is hurting our
relationship with Canonical, who also have designers who have, I
believe, failed to
2011/6/7 Frederic Crozat f...@crozat.net:
[SNIP]
My point is that GNOME OS is clearly driven by design (team), at least
for people like me who are trying to get a overview of what is going
on there.. If it isn't designed driven (which seems to contradict our
new moto we design and select
Hi,
Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
can you please explain to me, in a short sentence, what do you want to
achieve? not how, but precisely what.
I have said that already: I want to enable the design team to work
productively with the entire GNOME development community.
Right now a small number of
- Mensaje original -
De: Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org
Para: Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com
CC: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
Enviado: lunes 6 de junio de 2011 10:59
Asunto: Re: On the Interaction with the design team
Hi,
Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
can you please explain to me
Hey all.
I was planning on staying out of this one, conflict-avoidant creature
that I tend to be. But I'm with Dave:
To sum it all up, I
believe the current dynamic of the design team is doing damage to GNOME
as a community.
I would love to find ways for the design team and the
Hi Allan!
Yes. *I* was annoyed by the recent Deja Dup discussion, and felt that
the developer got short-changed at the end of the day. I was very
annoyed at the systemd as external dependency discussion, and the
message that some people following along the GNOME OS meme sent to
developers on
On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 03:44:06PM +0200, Johannes Schmid wrote:
* You need to give up your brand Deja Dup if you want to be part of GNOME
* Deja-Dup isn't allowed to exist in parallel as a application
Those requirements are only due to the proposed switch from GNOME Apps
suite to GNOME Core,
Johannes Schmid wrote:
Hi Allan!
Yes. *I* was annoyed by the recent Deja Dup discussion, and felt that
the developer got short-changed at the end of the day. I was very
annoyed at the systemd as external dependency discussion, and the
message that some people following along the GNOME
since you then pinged me via
IRC. (Thanks!)
So I think we've clarified some areas of difficulty and gotten more on
the same page about what are -- and are not -- design team interaction
issues. Hopefully we can continue this dialog and get our teams working
more closely together.
Thanks so much
Hi Dave,
2011/6/6 Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org:
Hi,
Emmanuele Bassi wrote:
can you please explain to me, in a short sentence, what do you want to
achieve? not how, but precisely what.
I have said that already: I want to enable the design team to work
productively with the entire GNOME
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
To sum it all up, I believe the current dynamic of the design team is doing
damage to GNOME
as a community.
I think what is really doing damage to the community is this kind of
hyperbolic accusation around the design team
forward in a positive direction.
And perhaps you read my mind in that regard since you then pinged me via
IRC. (Thanks!)
So I think we've clarified some areas of difficulty and gotten more on
the same page about what are -- and are not -- design team interaction
issues. Hopefully we can
On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 13:42 +0100, Allan Day wrote:
Dave Neary wrote:
Hi,
So, in short, I would like the design team to act like the gnome-utils team.
GNOME design has all the equivalent facilities [1, 2, 3] excluding the
mailing list.
Again, I agree (and have never disagreed)
Hi Olav!
The confusion was cleared up pretty quickly once we moved off
desktop-devel-list.
May I ask why these things move off desktop-devel-list? Maybe I missed
the mail that said that discussion is taking place elsewhere but I don't
think there was one.
Regards,
Johannes
signature.asc
On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 11:37:17PM +0200, Johannes Schmid wrote:
The confusion was cleared up pretty quickly once we moved off
desktop-devel-list.
May I ask why these things move off desktop-devel-list? Maybe I missed
the mail that said that discussion is taking place elsewhere but I don't
Hi,
On 06/02/11 02:02, Robert Ancell wrote:
A huge +1 on this. IRC is much more productive, but it's crucial that
it's logged for people who can't attend. (I'm always hitting this
problem in GNOME trying to work out what happened while I was sleeping
in Australia).
This works really well in
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
Hi,
On 06/02/11 02:02, Robert Ancell wrote:
A huge +1 on this. IRC is much more productive, but it's crucial that
it's logged for people who can't attend. (I'm always hitting this
problem in GNOME trying to work out what
On 3 June 2011 19:55, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
Hi,
On 06/02/11 02:02, Robert Ancell wrote:
A huge +1 on this. IRC is much more productive, but it's crucial that
it's logged for people who can't attend. (I'm always hitting this
problem in GNOME trying to work out what happened
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Sam Thursfield sss...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
On 06/02/11 02:02, Robert Ancell wrote:
A huge +1 on this. IRC is much more productive, but it's crucial that
it's logged for people who can't attend.
Hi,
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
I really don't think IRC logs are a good way of communicating anything. It's
better than unlogged, but really only marginally.
This discussion reminds me of the one we had about switching to DVCS
some years back. At that
Hi,
Allan Day wrote:
Dave Neary wrote:
There is no transparency about what the design team is, who has
what skills, etc.
Many stakeholders and developers who have design problems do not have
any relationship with the design team at all.
This is the problem I think we need to solve.
Hi!
This discussion reminds me of the one we had about switching to DVCS
some years back. At that time, most of the core developers wanted to
use git but most of the rest were opposed to that. While I don't claim
this situation is the same, this discussion is also about which tools
to
On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 13:05 +, Øyvind Kolås wrote:
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Sam Thursfield sss...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
On 06/02/11 02:02, Robert Ancell wrote:
A huge +1 on this. IRC is much more productive, but
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote:
Here are two reasons I could see for people wanting their IRC
conversations to be unlogged, along with my solution:
* Sharing sensitive information.
- Don't do that on IRC. Use a private chat if you have to.
But if it's
hi;
sorry, I'm attaching this to the latest email on the thread, but it's
really a request to both Johannes and Dave.
can you please explain to me, in a short sentence, what do you want to
achieve? not how, but precisely what.
I've seen people going round in circles and I still haven't
Hi!
can you please explain to me, in a short sentence, what do you want to
achieve? not how, but precisely what.
Have a good way to get in touch with the design team/other core gnome
teams that is not real-time and be able to participate in discussions
about desktop-wide design topics.
Dave,
Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org a écrit:
I would really love to see someone set up official logging of GNOME
IRC, like MeetBot or whatever. Several people run private loggers,
but we'd just need to make clear to participants that it is being
publicly logged.
If IRC logs are posted
On 1 Jun 2011, at 22:19, Olav Vitters wrote:
A lot of these requests seem to conflict. So suggest before asking for
something to really think what the requirements are for doing design.
I'm thinking of something where:
* you can come with some need
* people can post screenshots, visible
Hi,
Allan Day wrote:
Dave Neary wrote:
Presumably you others are still not interested in drawing a few
developers and designers into a gnome-design mailing list, separate from
the usability list
I think it's important that we work on being more accessible, and we
need to make it easier
Hi!
That's disappointing. Using IRC really is an anti-pattern which the
design team should avoid - it's only one step removed from doing
everything in person or on conference calls. Bugzilla isn't a forum, nor
can you be sure who you're talking to, or easily follow past discussions
through
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
Hi,
That's disappointing. Using IRC really is an anti-pattern which the
design team should avoid - it's only one step removed from doing
everything in person or on conference calls. Bugzilla isn't a forum, nor
can you be
On 1 June 2011 12:57, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, mailing lists don't work for many kinds of productive discussion.
Agreed. In my recent discussions with the dudes in #gnome-design there
was a flurry of messages, perhaps as many as 200 back-and-forth
discussions
Le mercredi 01 juin 2011, à 13:33 +0100, Richard Hughes a écrit :
On 1 June 2011 12:57, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, mailing lists don't work for many kinds of productive discussion.
Agreed. In my recent discussions with the dudes in #gnome-design there
was a
Hi,
On 06/01/11 13:57, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Dave Nearydne...@gnome.org wrote:
That's disappointing. Using IRC really is an anti-pattern which the
design team should avoid
snip
I really can't think of anything better than a mailing list which you
could use
Hi!
On 1 June 2011 12:57, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, mailing lists don't work for many kinds of productive
discussion.
Agreed. In my recent discussions with the dudes in #gnome-design there
was a flurry of messages, perhaps as many as 200 back-and-forth
Hi,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote:
Hi,
Allan Day wrote:
Dave Neary wrote:
Presumably you others are still not interested in drawing a few
developers and designers into a gnome-design mailing list, separate from
the usability list
I think it's
Hi,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
Hi!
On 1 June 2011 12:57, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, mailing lists don't work for many kinds of productive
discussion.
Agreed. In my recent discussions with the dudes in
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 15:18, Vincent Untz vu...@gnome.org wrote:
Le mercredi 01 juin 2011, à 13:33 +0100, Richard Hughes a écrit :
On 1 June 2011 12:57, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, mailing lists don't work for many kinds of productive
discussion.
Agreed.
Hi,
There's a lot in this email, it's worth responding to in detail (because
it gets to the heart of the matter). Reordered slightly to make my
answer more coherent :)
William Jon McCann wrote:
I think you need to be more clear about what your goals are.
My goals are to enable the design team
Hi Jon!
Are they listening or participating? Transparency and reporting is
pretty simple to solve. Publish logs, document (wiki), and blog and
you're pretty much there. Participation and engagement is much
harder. Basically you need to find a way to build a relationship with
a designer. It
Hi,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
Hi Jon!
Are they listening or participating? Transparency and reporting is
pretty simple to solve. Publish logs, document (wiki), and blog and
you're pretty much there. Participation and engagement is much
harder.
Hi!
Everyone may have an opinion and they are free to express it. However,
not everyone can be consulted before the fact - it is just practically
impossible. Those opinions, however, should be carefully gathered and
analyzed. There are careers for this.
I think you miss the original point of
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:38, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
Pretty good list of examples. All of these projects are mostly driven by
Red Hat full-time employees (which isn't a bad thing in general). It
happens to be the same company employing big parts of the core design
team.
Dave Neary wrote:
By working real-time, you are preventing a relationship from being built
beyond a small group of people. Those people work closely together, but
have the appearance of a closed tight-knit clique from outside the
group. There is no transparency about what the design team is,
Jason D. Clinton wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:38, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
Pretty good list of examples. All of these projects are mostly driven by
Red Hat full-time employees (which isn't a bad thing in general). It
happens to be the same company employing big parts of
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 14:31, Frederic Peters fpet...@gnome.org wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:38, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
Pretty good list of examples. All of these projects are mostly driven by
Red Hat full-time employees (which isn't a bad thing in general). It
happens
Hi!
To *who* does it feel that way? If you're going to insinuate that
people have tried to get involved and been rebuffed, then I think the
responsibility here falls to you to provide an example. Please don't
talk around the accusation by inferring that it's some kind of RH
conspiracy. It's
Hi Johannes,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
I think you miss the original point of the discussion: Even people that
would want to join the discussion have a hard time doing it if
everything is discussion on IRC (at a certain time) only.
I would
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org wrote:
I would really love to see someone set up official logging of GNOME
IRC, like MeetBot or whatever. Several people run private loggers,
but we'd just need to make clear to participants that it is being
publicly logged.
On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 04:10:46PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
Both of these things require changes on the GNOME servers though, so
it's hard to just Make Happen =/
If people have something concrete and workable, then propose it.
Things I've noticed:
* interactive is needed
e.g. mailing
On 2 June 2011 06:10, Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org wrote:
Hi Johannes,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
I think you miss the original point of the discussion: Even people that
would want to join the discussion have a hard time doing it if
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:
Something that has worked well in Sugar has been to start discussion
on the mailing list and then schedule a meeting on IRC. Afterwards
minutes are sent back to the ml where discussion can continue and the
feature
On Wed, 2011-06-01 at 16:10 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
Hi Johannes,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote:
I think you miss the original point of the discussion: Even people that
would want to join the discussion have a hard time doing it if
Hi Dave,
Dave Neary wrote:
Hi,
Allan Day wrote:
#gnome-design is good; so is the usability list.
The ui-review Bugzilla keyword gets used in GNOME Shell and the control
center. We could try that here too.
Presumably you others are still not interested in drawing a few
developers
Hi,
Allan Day wrote:
#gnome-design is good; so is the usability list.
The ui-review Bugzilla keyword gets used in GNOME Shell and the control
center. We could try that here too.
Presumably you others are still not interested in drawing a few
developers and designers into a gnome-design
On 20 May 2011, at 15:23, Bastien Nocera wrote:
The easiest is to add the ui-review keyword, and poke people on
#gnome-design.
Cc'ing usability-ma...@gnome.bugs is probably still somewhat useful, too. (I
certainly still see bugs that way that I'd miss otherwise, or take longer to
get to.)
Hi,
I have a simple question (hopefully ddl is the right mail list for
this): how are we supposed to interact with the design team? it seems
that the best way is contacting them through irc in #gnome-design, but
what about Gnome bugzilla? Does setting a keyword or something makes
the design team
Hi José,
On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 09:52 -0400, José Aliste wrote:
Hi,
I have a simple question (hopefully ddl is the right mail list for
this): how are we supposed to interact with the design team? it seems
that the best way is contacting them through irc in #gnome-design, but
what about
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