Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:23, Felipe Contreras > wrote: >> Here's the fourth version of the survey, only tiny minor changes, it >> seems it's stabilized as there isn't many more comments. >> >> Shall we start planning the deployment? Who can get it into the site? >> Can I have access? >> >> How about an application that pops notifications similar to this one? >> Would such a thing be accepted? > > You haven't yet addressed the problems that I pointed out. You haven't yet provided any suggestion. -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Jason D. Clinton > wrote: >>> How about an application that pops notifications similar to this one? >>> Would such a thing be accepted? >> >> You haven't yet addressed the problems that I pointed out. > > You haven't yet provided any suggestion. You are the one who proposed the idea of this survey and (more importantly) insist that a useful survey is possible for GNOME so *you* must address all criticism/concerns if you want us to take your proposal seriously. Ignoring input from others just because they don't have a solution for the problem(s) they point out isn't going to lead anywhere. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Felipe Contreras > wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Jason D. Clinton >> wrote: How about an application that pops notifications similar to this one? Would such a thing be accepted? >>> >>> You haven't yet addressed the problems that I pointed out. >> >> You haven't yet provided any suggestion. > > You are the one who proposed the idea of this survey and (more > importantly) insist that a useful survey is possible for GNOME so > *you* must address all criticism/concerns if you want us to take your > proposal seriously. Ignoring input from others just because they don't > have a solution for the problem(s) they point out isn't going to lead > anywhere. So, your idea of input is "this can be improved". What kind of input is that? If you have a concrete suggestions for improvement, I'm all ears. Or do you want me to make random modifications until Jason likes one of them? So far, *everybody* that has raised concerns has at least tried to provide some suggestions, except Jason, who apparently for some reason wants me to do his thinking for himself. I would gladly try that, if that is going to move this thing forward, but I think it would be much more productive if he did that, if at least because it would shorten the cycle between: how about this? nope, this? nah... I can only think of one reason why somebody would provide criticism without suggestions for improvement... Also, I thought this was *GNOME* user survey, not mine. -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
Hi Felipe, all. While I've been watching this all go by, I've not jumped in largely due to being crazy-busy. Sorry about that! While the crazy-busy situation has not yet changed, I couldn't help but notice this: > === 01. Which of the following images best resemble your desktop? === > (image selection) > > - GNOME 2 > - GNOME 3 > - Unity > - KDE > I assume these images will have sufficient accessible descriptions associated with them for users who are blind. In that same spirit: > Shall we start planning the deployment? I have no opinion on this other than to say should deployment planning indeed begin, would you mind pinging the Accessibility team along the way? I'm sure it will all be fine and accessible, but I would hate to make that assumption only for us to find out, upon deployment, that something was missed regarding the survey instrument, the notifications, etc. Thanks! Take care. --joanie ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
Hi Felipe, Thanks for trying to get feedback from users. This is something that is really hard to do. It might also be worth contacting a company that does this professionally to see if they can help us. I do not think you will be able to do very much with the answers to the questions you ask below. It's going to be a lot of work for data that is not useful. Let me try to explain. On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Felipe Contreras < felipe.contre...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Here's the fourth version of the survey, only tiny minor changes, it > seems it's stabilized as there isn't many more comments. > > Shall we start planning the deployment? Who can get it into the site? > Can I have access? > Where are we deploying it? How are we going to get people to take it? > > How about an application that pops notifications similar to this one? > Would such a thing be accepted? > Within GNOME? Would the distros agree to ship it? > > === 01. Which of the following images best resemble your desktop? === > (image selection) > > - GNOME 2 > - GNOME 3 > - Unity > - KDE > I think if we want to get average users, most of them are not going to know what GNOME is. I love GNOME and I've been using GNOME for years and working with GNOME, and I still don't really know what all is GNOME on my desktop. I think the questions will have to be much more specific. > === 02. Overall, how happy are you with GNOME? === > (single choice) > > * unhappy > * not so happy > * happy > * very happy > * completely ecstatic > If people tell you they are happy or unhappy with GNOME, what are you going to do with that? If they are unhappy what are you going to fix? If they are happy, what did they like? The color, the menus, the windows, the apps, ...??? > > === 03. Where do you run GNOME? === > (multiple choice, with other) > > === 04. Which GNOME version(s) are you using? === > (multiple choice, with other) > > === 05. How long have you been using GNOME? (years) === > (numeric) > The previous 3 questions are only useful if it will somehow help you understand the other answers better. > > === 06. How do you compare your current GNOME version with the version > from one year ago? === > (single choice) > > * better > * no changes > * worse > > * cannot say > They aren't going to know what's GNOME versus what's the distro. And maybe they like the help better and the menus less. Or maybe it's missing their favorite feature. This is way too vague ... > > === 07. Does GNOME do what you want? === > (single choice) > > * Everything > * Mostly > * Somewhat > * Barely > * Not at all > If they say "not at all", what are we missing? > > === 08. How happy are you with GNOME in regards to == > (matrix) > > Columns: unhappy / not so happy / happy / very happy / completely ecstatic > + ease of use > + documentation > + language availability > + accessibility > + community > This gets closer but it still way too high level. > > === 09. Which other desktop environments have you used in recent years? == > (multiple choice, with other) > > + KDE > + Unity > + XFCE > + LXDE > + Enlightenment > > + other (please specify) > Are you planning on polling just the open source community? Nobody else is going to have any idea what these are. They would be more likely to know Windows and Mac. But I'm not sure that this question is useful for us to act on. > > === 10. How many years of experience do you have using computers? === > (numeric) > Does it matter? > > === 11. How often do you use terminal/console? == > (single choice) > > * What is that? > * When I have no other option > * I can't live without them > * Is there anything else? > All the questions after this assume a knowledge of GNOME and how our community works. That's fine if you are polling developers. If you are polling average users, then I think it's not worth asking. Stormy > > === 12. Have you contributed to the GNOME project? === > (single choice) > > * Yes > * No > > === 13. Have you contacted the GNOME team? === > (single choice) > > * Yes, successfully > * Yes, unsuccessfully > * No, I don't know how > * No, never had the need > > === 14. If you could change three things in GNOME, what would they be? === > (free form) > > === 15. Do you have any comments or suggestions for the GNOME team? === > (free form) > > -- > Felipe Contreras > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 08:03:45PM +0300, Felipe Contreras wrote: > I can only think of one reason why somebody would provide criticism > without suggestions for improvement... 1. Because they cannot think of a good suggestion. Let's keep this constructive or otherwise don't cc desktop-devel-list. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
> I do not think you will be able to do very much with the answers to the > questions you ask below. It's going to be a lot of work for data that is not > useful. Let me try to explain. I thhink there is a better way to do this Felipe should do it without the Gnome oligarchy and then put the findings up on Linux Weekly News. That way we'll learn something, if not everything and it can no longer be stalled forever by bickering. And then well it's up to people if they listen, what they do with the data and how they follow it up. Sure the results will need reviewing with a little car - but thats true of any survey even one you paid through the nose for, in fact often more so because they more you pay the harder some of them will work to make sure you get the answers they think you want to hear 8) Plus the resulting debate may well answer even more questions than the survey ever did... Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gtk-doc and gobject introspection
On 08/10/11 00:33, Florian Brosch wrote: > Hi again, > > >> I was thinking of a i18n like approach as one options. Like we do for >> user-manuals. Instead of 'fr' or 'de' you will have 'python', 'perl' and >> 'vala' :) > I think it is enough to mark memory management information at C-level > and to demand people to name their code examples. > > That should allow us to handle almost all language specific cases easily. > > >> Personally I'd like to have all api-docs in the same style for >> consistency. Also gtk-doc + devhelp already has he mechanisms to switch >> between languages and show you the relevant docs. > We are still using native doc tools to document gnome relevant > libraries and applications. How do they fit in your plan? > > How are you planning to make them work together? How are we inheriting > documentation? How are we referring from native written code to our > fully documented nodes generated by our gtk-doc output? > > How are python/mono/perl/etc-documentation-provider supposed to embed > gtk-doc into their libraries? > > How are IDEs supposed to use our gtk-doc generated documentation? Is > there anyone around who cares enough to add support to common tools? > > Mono has its own documentation browser and an xml-based documentation format. > > What about unbounded symbols? How do we know them on gtkdoc-level? How > are we handling links to them? Are binding-developers supposed to > provide meta data to handle this issue? > > What about functions that are bounded in two different ways? > > What about utility functions added on binding-level? > > Not all bindings are using gir. > > etc. > > We are creating new problems here and pushing them away to people who > are trying to integrate the gnome-platform in different languages that > way instead of helping them to integrate it as well as possible. I > honestly think that's the wrong approach. > > > However, we could add new backends to common documentation tools to > get the same output for all languages without loosing all the benefits > we get by using native documentation stacks. > > The list of languages we are currently supporting / linking on > developer.gnome.org isn't that long: > > - Python (?) > - Java (javadoc) > - Vala (valadoc) > - C++ (doxygen) > > I'm willing to provide plugins for valadoc and javadoc. Maybe we can solve the library.gnome.org interation by having diferent css files. > Doxygen does not provide a plugin interface as far as I know. But it > is able to create a bunch xml-files including all the information we > need. > >> Right now with gobject introspection we can generate bindings for >> several languages but missing the relevant docs. There are definitely >> parts that needs to be written by people, but there are also things that >> can be generated or at least ways to support the people that document >> the bindings > I worked on extracting the docs for vala last week. The current > approach is simple and efficient. > > Here are all issues I found: > > 1. We do not know the c-name of our this-parameter. > 2. There is no elegant way to get rid of memory management descriptions I hope that we can get rid of them in the long run by having the annotation there instead. > 3. Unnamed source examples are forcing us to replace the whole comment > instead of the necessary part the examples should be enclosed in |[ example ]| markers. This unfortunately lacks a syntax to specify the language contained. Even for c-doc this could be shell-script or xml. > 4. Some referred pages are not part of gir. Yes git scanner does not know of the main.xml file and the included extra docs. > There is no demand on duplicating some parts of our binding generators > on gtk-doc level just to provide good binding-documentation. > > >> (e.g. highlight when c-docs changed to notify them that >> they might want to review the same part in the bindings docs). > That could be done with xquery easily. I like the idea. > > >> Personaly I don't want to force people to write docbook into their docs. >> The last gtk-doc release has a bit of markdown support also for better >> readability in the sources. Also ideally I'd like to kill the whole >> docbook processing as it is slow beyond easy fixability and also no one >> is really working on the tools. > Sounds good to me. What do you think about transforming it into xml at > gir-level on long term? That should allow us to pick up the > documentation easily. > That unfortunately won't work. The gir scanner takes the text blobs from the sources. I handle the markdown parts in gtkdoc-mkdb which transforms the extracted comment blobs into docbook xml. Stefan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Alan Cox wrote: > > And then well it's up to people if they listen, what they do with the > data and how they follow it up. Sure the results will need reviewing with > a little car The answers are so vague that you are not going to be able to follow up on them. So they are unhappy with GNOME. Then what? Plus the resulting debate may well answer even more questions than the > survey ever did... > > If you care about debating and learning from our core group of dedicated supporters, yes. If you care about average users, well, I doubt you'll learn much from them this way. The questions and answers are just too vague and those people are likely not reading LWN so they won't be able to follow up with us that way. Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps the average user of Linux/GNOME does know what GNOME is, knows how to contact the GNOME team and can tell you what version of GNOME they are using. And if they do, what is the survey going to tell you? That they do or don't like GNOME? And how long they have been using GNOME? What are we going to do with that information? Before any survey, you should know how you are going to use the information so that you can be sure to ask the right questions. Stormy ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: > While I've been watching this all go by, I've not jumped in largely > due to being crazy-busy. Sorry about that! While the crazy-busy > situation has not yet changed, I couldn't help but notice this: No worries, that's why the survey is not scheduled any time soon. >> === 01. Which of the following images best resemble your desktop? === >> (image selection) >> >> - GNOME 2 >> - GNOME 3 >> - Unity >> - KDE >> > > I assume these images will have sufficient accessible descriptions > associated with them for users who are blind. Well, I don't know such descriptions would be. We would need somebody that has actually used GNOME (and KDE) through this interface, and even then I'm not sure it's possible. > In that same spirit: > >> Shall we start planning the deployment? > > I have no opinion on this other than to say should deployment planning > indeed begin, would you mind pinging the Accessibility team along the > way? I'm sure it will all be fine and accessible, but I would hate to > make that assumption only for us to find out, upon deployment, that > something was missed regarding the survey instrument, the > notifications, etc. How to do that? I assume cross-posting to multiple lists is discouraged. But yes, it would be great to get their feedback. -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
Hi Felipe. On Thu, 2011-08-18 at 23:50 +0300, Felipe Contreras wrote: > On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: [...] > >> === 01. Which of the following images best resemble your desktop? === > >> (image selection) > >> > >> - GNOME 2 > >> - GNOME 3 > >> - Unity > >> - KDE > >> > > > > I assume these images will have sufficient accessible descriptions > > associated with them for users who are blind. > > Well, I don't know such descriptions would be. We would need somebody > that has actually used GNOME (and KDE) through this interface, and > even then I'm not sure it's possible. FWIW, I suspect most users who are blind and would be responding to such a survey are very much aware of exactly what desktop environment they are using and could identify it by name even without the benefit of a multiple-choice question. So the alternative text I'd probably use is something like: - "GNOME 2" - "GNOME 3" - "Unity" - "KDE" Having said that, it seems that the stage you're in right now is still one of figuring out exact language for all the questions, how best to get meaningful data, and how to go about deploying it. Thus what is the real point I'd like you to take away now about this issue is simply: If you present an image, you'll need an alternative, text-based description to make that image accessible for users who are blind. Please don't forget the description. :-) When you reach the point where you need the exact language for such descriptions, please come hang out with the accessibility team and we'll help you sort it out. > > In that same spirit: > > > >> Shall we start planning the deployment? > > > > I have no opinion on this other than to say should deployment planning > > indeed begin, would you mind pinging the Accessibility team along the > > way? I'm sure it will all be fine and accessible, but I would hate to > > make that assumption only for us to find out, upon deployment, that > > something was missed regarding the survey instrument, the > > notifications, etc. > > How to do that? I assume cross-posting to multiple lists is > discouraged. But yes, it would be great to get their feedback. Well, on behalf of the Accessibility team, I invite you to join us in #a11y on IRC any time you have questions. If you prefer a mailing list, the gnome-accessibility-list reaches just about all of the team members. Thanks again! Take care. --joanie ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
Hi, On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Stormy Peters wrote: > Thanks for trying to get feedback from users. This is something that is > really hard to do. It might also be worth contacting a company that does > this professionally to see if they can help us. > > I do not think you will be able to do very much with the answers to the > questions you ask below. It's going to be a lot of work for data that is not > useful. Let me try to explain. > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Felipe Contreras > wrote: >> Here's the fourth version of the survey, only tiny minor changes, it >> seems it's stabilized as there isn't many more comments. >> >> Shall we start planning the deployment? Who can get it into the site? >> Can I have access? > > Where are we deploying it? How are we going to get people to take it? Have you read the original thread? http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.desktop/45432/focus=45456 I originally suggested questionpro.com, as it was the best option I could find. Later on Frederic Muller suggested to use limesurvey which supposedly it's installed in GNOME servers. As for getting people to take it, I was suggesting the usual info distribution channels; blogs, planets, online magazines, twitter, Google+, facebook, etc. In addition to that I suggested a new software component that would read information from the Internet, and pop up a notification to the user, the user would be able to disable these notifications easily, of course. Perhaps for GNOME 3.2. But I didn't hear a lot of encouragement for that idea. >> How about an application that pops notifications similar to this one? >> Would such a thing be accepted? > > Within GNOME? Would the distros agree to ship it? >> >> === 01. Which of the following images best resemble your desktop? === >> (image selection) >> >> - GNOME 2 >> - GNOME 3 >> - Unity >> - KDE > > I think if we want to get average users, most of them are not going to know > what GNOME is. That is the purpose of this question, they don't have to know, they just select the image that resembles what they are using. > I love GNOME and I've been using GNOME for years and working with GNOME, and > I still don't really know what all is GNOME on my desktop. > > I think the questions will have to be much more specific. How do you make this question more specific? They are images, you just have to select one. >> === 02. Overall, how happy are you with GNOME? === >> (single choice) >> >> * unhappy >> * not so happy >> * happy >> * very happy >> * completely ecstatic > > If people tell you they are happy or unhappy with GNOME, what are you going > to do with that? If they are unhappy what are you going to fix? If they are > happy, what did they like? The color, the menus, the windows, the apps, > ...??? Baby steps, first, let's get the results. If they are happy, great, not much to do, if they are unhappy, well, then some further actions after this survey might be needed. Having said that, we might find some clues in the rest of the survey, as this question is somewhat split into multiple groups later on, and in the worst case scenario, there's the free-form comments. >> === 03. Where do you run GNOME? === >> (multiple choice, with other) >> >> === 04. Which GNOME version(s) are you using? === >> (multiple choice, with other) >> >> === 05. How long have you been using GNOME? (years) === >> (numeric) > > The previous 3 questions are only useful if it will somehow help you > understand the other answers better. Also the previous one. Maybe people don't like GNOME 2 that much, but they do like GNOME 3... >> === 06. How do you compare your current GNOME version with the version >> from one year ago? === >> (single choice) >> >> * better >> * no changes >> * worse >> >> * cannot say > > They aren't going to know what's GNOME versus what's the distro. And maybe > they like the help better and the menus less. Or maybe it's missing their > favorite feature. This is way too vague ... The purpose is to get some sense of progress. Say, the respondents using GNOME 2 are answering "worse" a lot, it might be worth investigating what might have been those changes. How would you make this question less vague? >> === 07. Does GNOME do what you want? === >> (single choice) >> >> * Everything >> * Mostly >> * Somewhat >> * Barely >> * Not at all > > If they say "not at all", what are we missing? Again, then you might want to take further actions beyond this survey. Most likely though, you would be able to find some correlations between this question to other ones. Maybe it's only people with a lot of experience with computers that would answer in such way. We would know only after getting the results. >> === 08. How happy are you with GNOME in regards to == >> (matrix) >> >> Columns: unhappy / not so happy / happy / very happy / completely >> ecstatic >> + ease of use >> + documentation >> + language availability >> + accessibility >> + community > > This gets
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
> The answers are so vague that you are not going to be able to follow up on > them. So they are unhappy with GNOME. Then what? Then at the very least you've got some picture of what is going on and you can try and trigger discussion about why people are unhappy (or indeed happy). > Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps the average user of Linux/GNOME does > know what GNOME is, knows how to contact the GNOME team and can tell you > what version of GNOME they are using. And if they do, what is the survey There are going to be a large number of users whose viewpoint is essentially "don't care", how you measure them is hard in pretty much any situation. A truely random sample of Gnome users will be hard to get by any approach. > going to tell you? That they do or don't like GNOME? And how long they have > been using GNOME? What are we going to do with that information? Use it to work out what questions it would be interesting to ask next year ? Look at what shows up in terms of additional comments. Look at the discussion around it, drop in the odd 'Why ?' question of your own. Use it to kickstart a secondary debate on the gnome site. (And btw while they won't read LWN people will link to it and discuss it in other places too) There is a second thing here too IMHO. The questions that could be asked and fixing them are currently buried in the debate. I can't see how progress will be made on picking questions usefully until someone moves from trying to achieve consensus to picking what they think is best based upon the resposes and just doing it regardless of whether each question is considered wrong by 5% of the people in the debate. > Before any survey, you should know how you are going to use the information > so that you can be sure to ask the right questions. So I could equally have said "Why release Gnome 3.0, we know it isn't perfect and there are wrong things". Releasing it was better than stasis, it provided a learning experience that will make 3.2 much better I am sure. Doing nothing achieves nothing, doing something achieves learning. You may well not learn what you intended but you will learn something including quite possibly how to do future surveys better. I'm not saying its necessarily a great approach but it's vastly superior to people sitting around picking holes in the idea until it never happens. Right now this seems to be in blocking mode, and blocking a volunteer off to do stuff and see what happens be it code or otherwise is usually the wrong thing to do. Sure -t here is a good case for not describing it in any way that suggests its GNOME foundation endorsed or driven. Gnome grew from a comically clueless 0.1 tarball, surveys can do likewise. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Stormy Peters wrote: > On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Alan Cox wrote: >> >> And then well it's up to people if they listen, what they do with the >> data and how they follow it up. Sure the results will need reviewing with >> a little car > > The answers are so vague that you are not going to be able to follow up on > them. So they are unhappy with GNOME. Then what? This is a simple survey, not some kind of magical questionnaire. Just having the information that users are unhappy is valuable already. Plus, there's the free-form suggestion text. >> Plus the resulting debate may well answer even more questions than the >> survey ever did... >> > If you care about debating and learning from our core group of dedicated > supporters, yes. If you care about average users, well, I doubt you'll learn > much from them this way. The questions and answers are just too vague and > those people are likely not reading LWN so they won't be able to follow up > with us that way. Well, we don't know what the average GNOME user looks like, do we? What we do know is that is the target user, and we have tried to identify them with the question in the survey. Supposing we get a few thousands of respondents, and only 10% qualify as "normal users", even then, if you filter those answers, that should give you statistically significant information about the whole target user-base. Oh, and maybe a lot of people don't read LWN, but they don't have too, just like anything viral, the link to the survey would spread, and eventually at least few "normal users" are bound to have a geek friend that would show them the link. > Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps the average user of Linux/GNOME does > know what GNOME is, knows how to contact the GNOME team and can tell you > what version of GNOME they are using. And if they do, what is the survey > going to tell you? That they do or don't like GNOME? And how long they have > been using GNOME? What are we going to do with that information? Suppose you are right, and we do get that "useless" (not in my books) information, what is the damage? Suppose however that we do find something useful there. I think it's totally worth trying. > Before any survey, you should know how you are going to use the information > so that you can be sure to ask the right questions. Not necessarily. Again, asking a useless question doesn't hurt anybody. Of course, if you have better questions, those should be prioritized over the ones that have less chance of being fruitful. -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Alan Cox wrote: > Use it to work out what questions it would be interesting to ask next > year ? Look at what shows up in terms of additional comments. Look at the > discussion around it, drop in the odd 'Why ?' question of your own. Use > it to kickstart a secondary debate on the gnome site. Exactly. I forgot this crucial point. This has been the case in the Git survey; after years of doing it, we have found that some questions were missing (by looking at the comments box), and that some questions were not really providing much. Nothing is ever perfect, but having at least some results is better than nothing. -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > Nothing is ever perfect, but having at least some results is better > than nothing. Since you have repeated this assertion a few times, I must ask: What if the results are all wrong and we don't have any way of knowing that? Would those results still be better than nothing in your opinion? -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 01:20:53 +0300 "Zeeshan Ali (Khattak)" wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Felipe Contreras > wrote: > > > > Nothing is ever perfect, but having at least some results is better > > than nothing. > > Since you have repeated this assertion a few times, I must ask: What > if the results are all wrong and we don't have any way of knowing > that? Would those results still be better than nothing in your > opinion? In that hypothetical case possibly not. But that isn't really likely to be the case even with a bad survey, especially if you start looking at how people used the open comments and asking why questions, or looking at the debate it triggers. You can learn things even by asserting a position and seeing the responses you get. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Felipe Contreras > wrote: >> >> Nothing is ever perfect, but having at least some results is better >> than nothing. > > Since you have repeated this assertion a few times, I must ask: What > if the results are all wrong and we don't have any way of knowing > that? Would those results still be better than nothing in your > opinion? What do you mean by all wrong? Let's assume that the results show that 1000 people are not happy with GNOME. How can that be wrong? 1000 people responded that, the results were not somehow altered, or boycotted, the results are the results, and that's that. The *conclusions* based on the analysis of the results might be wrong, but that wouldn't be a problem of the survey, and if you are so afraid of that, you can ignore the results of the survey completely. I for one think the survey already has enough mechanisms to determine biases, and therefore come up with conclusions with a reasonable degree of certainty. But I wonder, can you come up with some example of "bad results" to the answers proposed here, and why exactly we wouldn't know they are "bad"? -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v4)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:09 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) > wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Felipe Contreras >> wrote: >>> >>> Nothing is ever perfect, but having at least some results is better >>> than nothing. >> >> Since you have repeated this assertion a few times, I must ask: What >> if the results are all wrong and we don't have any way of knowing >> that? Would those results still be better than nothing in your >> opinion? > > What do you mean by all wrong? Let's assume that the results show that > 1000 people are not happy with GNOME. How can that be wrong? Maybe they all lied? Maybe people who are satisfied do not want to or have time to take part in surveys and you only get people who are not happy into the survey? In which case, the results may show results that are not correct. i-e a significantly large number of participant say that they are very unhappy with GNOME but what if that number is nothing compared to the number of people who are very much satisfied with GNOME? I didn't say this so far because it might sound like I am trying to make a joke but since you still insist on your assertions about the survey, I feel I must say this: How do you know people in general like to participate in surveys? It is my observation that most people do not like to do that, unless they have something to complain about. Now this observation of mine could very well be wrong but how do we know that? Do we do a survey to find out if people like to participate in surveys? -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
