Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
Hi, On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 05:15:37PM +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? See the release notes of 3.2. Feedback is used. Note: I care about feedback, not about surveys. That is just one of many ways to get feedback. I think that has been discussed to death already. Regarding fallback: At the moment, it seems almost noone is using fallback mode. As such, I don't think the current efforts made into fallback more will continue for too long. Usage seems to be minimal. But not a lot of distributions have GNOME 3 yet, so it is also a bit early to tell. -- The latest version of Ubuntu (11.10 I guess) allows you to choose between Unity, Gnome Shell and Gnome Classic, which is, up to what I have seen (i dont use ubuntu but a friend of mine does) Gnome 3 with fallback mode on, so we might get some more people using it. Regards, José Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 08:01:53AM +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Ok, thanks for the reasonable answer. Don't you think it would make sense for the GNOME to conduct such review officially? And perhaps explicitly exclude GNOME developers from participation, to make it unbiased;) This was already said before. Nothing wrong with doing a survey. But don't ignore the discussion and comments given on that survey. Just read all the previous threads. A lot is just repeating what has been said before. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 01:09:18AM +0200, Mark wrote: Some facts. 1. Gnome wants feedback but any feedback gathered online is non representative. It has to be gathered from a non biased site like cnn.com-_- guess the person who said that lives in a dream world or under a stone False false 2. Gnome gets feedback on _gnome's_own_list_of_questions_ but it's non representative ... False false 3. It's useless False false 4. Feedback should be looked for just by asking people, not on internet. False and false This has been extensively explained by lots of people before. Either read up on what has been said before, or expect to be moderated. If you want to participate, please at least read up on what was said before. Just repeating your own beliefs and saying there facts is going to get you nowhere. You are false in all false points. The points are all from messages in this thread so i recommend you to read back on the list since you obviously missed something. And i'm not trying to participate. I'm not part of gnome (anymore). All i try to do is lay out the facts and let gnome realize what they see as a valid survey is not possible. It would be in a perfect world but that isn't the case. You threatening with moderation is really below the belt. I try to be objective, state facts, be to the point and let gnome realize how realistic their view of feedback is. I didn't insult anyone in person. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 09:58:15AM +0200, Mark wrote: False false False false False false False and false You are false in all false points. The points are all from messages in this thread so i recommend you to read back on the list since you obviously missed something. And i'm not trying to participate. I'm not part of gnome (anymore). I don't see when I say your viewpoints and trying to present them as facts is somehow trying to participate. All i try to do is lay out the facts and let gnome realize what they see as a valid survey is not possible. It would be in a perfect world but that isn't the case. As stated before, the purpose is to gather feedback. That can be done in various ways. This survey is really really bad. Especially since loads of warnings have been given before, but no . You threatening with moderation is really below the belt. I try to be objective, state facts, be to the point and let gnome realize how realistic their view of feedback is. I didn't insult anyone in person. Already stated that what you see as facts is just opinions. If I state that your facts aren't facts, and the only thing you do is reply by saying false... I am threatening with moderation, I was warning. Up to now, everything in this thread has been said before. Repeating the same discussions by ignoring all what has been said before.. I don't see the need. And yes, I am a sysadmin and hand out warning. Ignoring responses and summarize things as we don't listen, despite e.g. what what was been said before, despite the changes listed in the release notes that were made based on feedback. I don't see the need. I don't see why someone would think Phoronix survey is not actively trying to influence the results. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: There's been a lot of work done to improve GNOME 3 over the last 6 months. A lot of the complaints of GNOME 3.0 have been already addressed. Why not just do it after (even more!) distros ship GNOME 3.2? The first one is probably going to shed more light on what should be asked than anything else. So why not do it now ? It will also be a basis upon which you can compare a 2012 survey. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAwMjY ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 04:54:12PM +0200, Mark wrote: FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAwMjY Useless. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:27 +0200, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 04:54:12PM +0200, Mark wrote: FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAwMjY Useless. Web surveys are guaranteed to self-select, and I have to imagine a survey hosted on phoronix self-selects a ton more than one on cnn.com or msn.com. Useful surveys are ones that go out and find users, instead of depending on users to find the survey. Dan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:35:24AM -0500, Dan Williams wrote: On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:27 +0200, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 04:54:12PM +0200, Mark wrote: FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAwMjY Useless. Web surveys are guaranteed to self-select, and I have to imagine a survey hosted on phoronix self-selects a ton more than one on cnn.com or msn.com. Useful surveys are ones that go out and find users, instead of depending on users to find the survey. That and various other things have been mentioned beforehand, and was ignored. Read for instance the survey page itself: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAwMjI Felipe Contreras and others have been working on a GNOME survey for a while now, but the GNOME developers or the GNOME Foundation weren't interested in endorsing such a survey. But the survey has the blessing of Alan Cox and totally ignores that most concerns were ignored and the pretty annoying/bad behaviour displayed on the mailing list. Furthermore, if you do a survey, at least try to solicit unbiased feedback. Saying developers weren't interested misrepresents what happened. Furthermore, this influences the responses you will get. I don't see why this is added if you care to avoid bias. Then while the survey is running articles are made taking various highly critical (but useless feedback) and this is used to suggest what GNOME users think. This while beforehand it was said that an internet survey is not representative. It is still being presented by Phoronix as such. I don't think any of the 600.000 Spanish users saw any notice for a survey. Was specifically warned about beforehand. Such actions just confirms that the effort was not an honest intention to gather feedback. Just to confirm own thoughts. As such, I find it useless. Just waiting for the next misrepresenting article/blog/etc. :P -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On 18 October 2011 16:52, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: Such actions just confirms that the effort was not an honest intention to gather feedback. Just to confirm own thoughts. I don't think many of us on this list thought the intention of the survey was to highlight areas needing improvement in GNOME. I think it's best if we just let the Real Users comment on phoronix without it getting into a huge troll-fest. That way there's no distraction for us developers and designers who are working on GNOME 3.3. Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
It's useless to me because there's nothing actionable there. The survey results don't give us anything to do except die in a fire. -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
Would anybody have time to prepare some useful survey? Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? Sergey On Oct 18, 2011 5:03 p.m., Jasper St. Pierre jstpie...@mecheye.net wrote: It's useless to me because there's nothing actionable there. The survey results don't give us anything to do except die in a fire. -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:15 +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? How are those two things even connected? How could switching the development emphasis to work on obsolete technologies help anybody at all (users/developers/designers and so on)? Cosimo ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. On Oct 18, 2011 5:29 p.m., Cosimo Cecchi cosi...@gnome.org wrote: On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:15 +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? How are those two things even connected? How could switching the development emphasis to work on obsolete technologies help anybody at all (users/developers/designers and so on)? Cosimo ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Sergey Udaltsov sergey.udalt...@gmail.com wrote: Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. Phoronix is a tabloid seeking sensation. They feed on flames, FUD and “scandals” so their readership is far from being average end users. It's not the crowd you can cater to as whenever you “fix” one “problem” they will quickly find a new thing to hate. -- Patryk Zawadzki I solve problems. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:34 +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? Is this another provocative question? It's a fallback that *by definition* uses older technologies to have something usable on hardware that do not support gnome-shell. gnome-panel might use GTK3, but that doesn't make it on-par with the non-fallback experience in any way... I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. I feel like the survey was explicitly intended to provoke such emotions in a specific audience; so I don't think those results are really valuable in choosing the direction GNOME should go. Cosimo ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. Absolutely! My question was exactly about that - is there theoretical possibility that proper survey would amend those goals. Phoronix is a tabloid seeking sensation. Agree. But I guess it is not a surprise that some users are crying for good old gnome2. If gnome could properly estimate the share of those deprived... would it change anything? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 05:15:37PM +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? See the release notes of 3.2. Feedback is used. Note: I care about feedback, not about surveys. That is just one of many ways to get feedback. I think that has been discussed to death already. Regarding fallback: At the moment, it seems almost noone is using fallback mode. As such, I don't think the current efforts made into fallback more will continue for too long. Usage seems to be minimal. But not a lot of distributions have GNOME 3 yet, so it is also a bit early to tell. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
Phoronix is a tabloid seeking sensation. Agree. But I guess it is not a surprise that some users are crying for good old gnome2. If gnome could properly estimate the share of those deprived... would it change anything? What's stopping these deprived users from using Gnome 2.X? I don't think there's enough developers interested in keeping the 2.X series alive - it would be a different matter if people were smashing out the features/patches for the 2.X range but as that's not happening I don't see why they don't stay with what works for them? Regards, Nick ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
for too long. Usage seems to be minimal. But not a lot of distributions have GNOME 3 yet, so it is also a bit early to tell. Exactly. Let's wait till all distros outphase gnome 2.x ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
What's stopping these deprived users from using Gnome 2.X? I don't think there's enough developers interested in keeping the 2.X series alive - it would be a different matter if people were smashing out the features/patches for the 2.X range but as that's not happening I don't see why they don't stay with what works for them? People upgrade distros. They upgrade HW. Would you advise people who love WinXP and hate Vista(ot Win7) stay with WinXP - considering that it has issues with new HW? Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
2011/10/18 Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl At the moment, it seems almost noone is using fallback mode. As such, I don't think the current efforts made into fallback more will continue for too long. Usage seems to be minimal. But not a lot of distributions have GNOME 3 yet, so it is also a bit early to tell. How do you know that almost noone is using the fallback mode? -- www.twitter.com/Rovanion ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 08:20:18PM +0200, Rovanion Luckey wrote: 2011/10/18 Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl At the moment, it seems almost noone is using fallback mode. As such, I don't think the current efforts made into fallback more will continue for too long. Usage seems to be minimal. But not a lot of distributions have GNOME 3 yet, so it is also a bit early to tell. How do you know that almost noone is using the fallback mode? I said that it seems noone is using it, didn't say I know. Also said it is too early to tell properly. I build up impressions by: - reading the amount of questions on 50+ GNOME mailing lists - following various distribution mailing lists (opensuse, Fedora, Mageia) - a few IRC channels (GNOME, Mageia) - sites such as tweakers.net, news.ycombinator.com, lwn.net, slashdot.org, webwereld.net, h-online.com, and a few others - amount of bugs on Bugzilla (GNOME, Mageia) -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.orgwrote: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Sergey Udaltsov sergey.udalt...@gmail.com wrote: Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. Phoronix is a tabloid seeking sensation. They feed on flames, FUD and “scandals” so their readership is far from being average end users. It's not the crowd you can cater to as whenever you “fix” one “problem” they will quickly find a new thing to hate. -- Patryk Zawadzki I solve problems. I really want to drop in here. I on purposely say gnome instead of you to avoid giving the impression that i attack anyone. Some facts. 1. Gnome wants feedback but any feedback gathered online is non representative. It has to be gathered from a non biased site like cnn.com-_- guess the person who said that lives in a dream world or under a stone 2. Gnome gets feedback on _gnome's_own_list_of_questions_ but it's non representative ... 3. It's useless 4. Feedback should be looked for just by asking people, not on internet. Really, is gnome KIDDING me? How unrealistic can gnome be! And if phoronix isn't a site for user feedback then what is? For who is Gnome even targeted? Linux distributions with Desktop Environments are installed by (usually) the more technical people, the same people who infact _do_ visit phoronix simply because it's the only and thus biggest linux news site out there. Phoronix and any linux news orientated site would be _perfect_ for a Gnome survey! If gnome thinks otherwise then keep on living in that little perfect utopia world of gnome. Reality is way different. Gnome really seems to be living in some ideal small everyone loves gnome world where they can tap in sites with millions of unbiased users that all give unbiased objective feedback.. Wake up gnome, not gonna happen! Asking unbiased thus people that have never been using gnome is asking first impressions. Not something you would want in your feedback. You would want feedback of users that have been using gnome for a (long) while and are thus able to give real constructive feedback. Exactly the kind of people that visit phoronix and thus a perfect site for asking feedback. What i think is really going on here is that gnome sees the feedback and doesn't like it. Gnome would obviously like to see feedback like Ohh, good job gnome! btw, gnome shell really rocks! ... Apparently the vast majority of gnome users (and you can leave ubuntu out since it has it's own interface thus it's own gnome experience) simply don't like what gnome did with the move to Gnome Shell. The people gnome targets don't like gnome anymore and switch to KDE and XFCE. And those are facts! Then we have the settings. Gnome threats people like they are stupid and takes away as much options as possible. Another fact is that most linux users _like_ to have more options so gnome is very much acting like i know all, you are stupid. Take it or leave it and isn't listening to it's users _at_all_ Just face it. More options instead of less are wanted by the majority of gnome's user base for years. And what does gnome do as another stubborn move? ... take more options out ... Gnome did the wrong thing by introducing Gnome Shell. It was known way before it was released but gnome was, yet again, extremely stubborn and ignorant to the opinion of the users. Gnome just doesn't listen and that is gonna bite gnome at some point in time. Advanced users just don't like gnome anymore. There might be a few exceptions like for example gnome's own developers ;) So, gnome, please just take this message. Do something about your attitude and listen to your own users! Be friendly towards them, help them and give them a good experience. That does also mean to drop shell in my opinion (and come up with something better). I really do wonder how much people are using gnome (shell, unity and fallback) now.. I think it's user base declined rapidly with the gnome 3.0 release. XFCE an KDE probably saw usage increases around the same time. I wish there where numbers on that somewhere. Don't take this message the wrong way. I post it with good intentions and for gnome to take it and learn from it. I'm just being fair, open and stating facts. Kind regards, Mark ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. Plenty of people see it as a preference, but right now on the hardware side there are plenty of chipsets without 3D support or where it's not good enough for Gnome 3. As a starter in recent/currently available chipsets you can add - Some Intel gen chipsets with 2048 pixel wide displays - All the USB plug in displays - Imagination based hardware and I'm sure there are plenty more. They don't I suspect need fallback mode though, all of the examples I can think of that are current have very fast framebuffer access for pushing bits, usually host memory based (the USB one update is slower but not the draw rates). E/EVAS manages to do pretty much everything Gnome 3 non fallback does effectwise on such chipsets snappily (often faster than Gnome 3 feels on hardware 3D), so really it ought to be a case for the most part of fixing the broke dependancies of Gnome 3 on 3D hardware. You can do drop shadows, shading, scaling of a flat 2D image and the like very fast with the CPU. I do wonder if Gnome 3 had been based on the E canvas whether any of the problem would have occurred in the first place ? Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
I really want to drop in here. I on purposely say gnome instead of you to avoid giving the impression that i attack anyone. Mark, I am afraid that still looks like an attack... While in general I agree with you, I guess the format of your message is not appropriate. It does not make sense to occuse people making decisions. You'll just alienate them. What I initially asked - and still did not get the answer - what could be the format of the feedback that could change the policies. Perhaps reverting some of them. What kind of critical feedback would not be treated as useless? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
Phoronix and any linux news orientated site would be _perfect_ for a Gnome survey! If gnome thinks otherwise then keep on living in that little perfect utopia world of gnome. Reality is way different. Gnome really seems to be living in some ideal small everyone loves gnome world where they can tap in sites with millions of unbiased users that all give unbiased objective feedback.. Wake up gnome, not gonna happen! Read this: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAwMjY and ask that question again. I think it confirms the worst suspicions of those questioning the usefulness of this survey. What actionable items or lessons do you see in those 'early results'. There is no useful feedback there, all I see is fail and a black mark on the reputation of phoronix. Olav, I suggest you continue to moderate this thread. I predict nothing good will come of it. John ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Wed, 2011-10-19 at 01:09 +0200, Mark wrote: I really want to drop in here. I on purposely say gnome instead of you to avoid giving the impression that i attack anyone. Honestly, given your hostile tone, it instead comes off as if you're attacking everybody. I'm going to try to assume you're frustrated, and that you don't mean to offend. Some facts. 1. Gnome wants feedback but any feedback gathered online is non representative. It has to be gathered from a non biased site like cnn.com -_- guess the person who said that lives in a dream world or under a stone My objections to the survey are well-documented on this list. I clearly stated multiple times that an open-invite internet survey of any kind cannot control its sampling or control for selection bias in any way. The person who mentioned CNN didn't say that a survey on cnn.com would be scientific. He said *all* web surveys self-select, and that phoronix self-selects moreso. This is simply a product of who reads the sites, and who you want to reach. Most of the people who create GNOME are professional developers, or are working towards becoming professionals. Perhaps surveys ought to be run by professional statisticians, or quantitative social science professionals. And among the many reasons why this survey is clearly biased and poorly run, let's not forget that cherry-picking negative (and overtly hostile) comments before the data is even published is about the least professional thing I've ever seen in a survey. 2. Gnome gets feedback on _gnome's_own_list_of_questions_ but it's non representative ... The majority of GNOME developers did not participate in creating these questions. Of those that did, most were not supportive of the survey as deployed. To characterize it as GNOME's own list of questions is extremely disingenuous. 3. It's useless 4. Feedback should be looked for just by asking people, not on internet. Really, is gnome KIDDING me? How unrealistic can gnome be! And if phoronix isn't a site for user feedback then what is? For who is Gnome even targeted? I'm sure if you ask a dozen different GNOME developers, you'll get some different answers. But mostly, I think GNOME targets people who don't want to think about what terms like operating system, desktop environment, or distribution mean. Many technology enthusiasts enjoy GNOME. In fact, those of us who create GNOME are technology enthusiasts. But we set the bar higher than our own tolerance for technology pain. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Wed, 2011-10-19 at 00:26 +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: What I initially asked - and still did not get the answer - what could be the format of the feedback that could change the policies. Perhaps reverting some of them. What kind of critical feedback would not be treated as useless? I can't speak for everybody. But as I've said numerous times, I don't trust any survey that has no control over its sampling. And preferably, it would be run by people who have some amount of professional experience. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On 18/10/2011 18:15, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: What's stopping these deprived users from using Gnome 2.X? I don't think there's enough developers interested in keeping the 2.X series alive - it would be a different matter if people were smashing out the features/patches for the 2.X range but as that's not happening I don't see why they don't stay with what works for them? People upgrade distros. They upgrade HW. Would you advise people who love WinXP and hate Vista(ot Win7) stay with WinXP - considering that it has issues with new HW? Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list The metaphore mismatch in two points - the users of GNOME have the power to fork it (I heard even calls to fork GNOME before 3.0) so if sufficient number of developers decides to maintain GNOME 2 it may still live (probably under different name - IANAL and I'm not sure about trademark etc. details). (Whether the discontent have necessary skills is of course different matter). GNOME is also only a part of stack and I don't think GNOME 2 will stop working with, say, kernel 3.6 which would include new drivers etc. the same goes for sane/cups/mesa/... hence it will unlikely have issues with new HW. Regards signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
Hi, Since I have been effectively banned from desktop devel (my posts take two weeks to be moderated), I am sending this mail personally to people that have been active in the development. Michael Larabel has offered to host the survey in the Phoronix site, so I have been able to bring back many questions and not limit it to 10. I have incorporated all the suggestions and haven't had received any more in a while, so I think this is ready to go. I say we should launch it before the weekend, probably on Wednesday. Michael, is there anything else I need to do to help you put it on Phoronix? As usual, it's hosted here: https://gist.github.com/gists/1128166 Cheers. GNOME user survey 2011 === 01. Do you know what GNOME is? === [single choice] * Yes [skip to 03] * No === 02. Which of the following best resemble your desktop? === (click to see the image) [single choice] - Windows http://origin.arstechnica.com/images/windows7/Peek%20-%20Before.png - Mac OS X http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/firstrun/macosx103.png - GNOME 2 http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.28/figures/gnome-2.28.png.en - GNOME 3 http://gnome3.org/img/overview-big.png - Unity http://static.arstechnica.com/shell-windows.png - KDE http://www.linuxnov.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/KDE-4-7-desktop.jpg - I can't tell === 03. Overall, how satisfied are you with GNOME? === [single choice] * not at all * barely * halfway * mostly * completely === 04. Does GNOME do what you want? === [single choice] * not at all * barely * halfway * mostly * completely === 05. How satisfied are you with GNOME in regards to == [matrix] Columns: not at all / barely / halfway / mostly / completely + ease of use + documentation + language availability + accessibility + community === 06. How are you taking this survey? === [single choice, with other] * Completely on my own * Somebody is pushing for me to do it * I am acting on behalf of somebody else * Other === 07. How old are you? (years) === [numeric] === 08. How long have you been using GNOME? (years) === [numeric] === 09. How many years of experience do you have using computers? === [numeric] === 10. How do you compare your current GNOME version with the version from one year ago? === [single choice] * better * no changes * worse * cannot say === 11. Which GNOME version(s) are you using? === [multiple choice, with other] + 3.2 + 3.0 + 2.x + I don't know + I'm not using it currently + other, please specify === 12. Where do you run GNOME? === [multiple choice, with other] + Desktop + Laptop + Netbook + Tablet === 13. How often do you use a terminal/console? == [single choice] * What is that? * When I have no other option * I can't live without them * Is there anything else? === 14. Have you contributed to the GNOME project? === [single choice] * Yes * No === 15. Have you contacted the GNOME team? === [single choice] * Yes, successfully * Yes, unsuccessfully * No, I don't know how * No, never had the need === 16. Which other desktop environments have you used in recent years? == [multiple choice, with other] + KDE + Unity + XFCE + LXDE + Enlightenment + other (please specify) === 17. Are you using some window arrangement extension on top of GNOME? == (e.g. Compiz + plugins, Awesome TWM + GNOME, etc) [single choice, with other] * No, pure GNOME * GNOME + Compiz window arrangement plugins * I don't know * Other (please specify) === 18. If you could change three things in GNOME, what would they be? === [free form] === 19. Do you have any comments or suggestions for the GNOME team? === [free form] -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On 09/19/2011 07:38 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: Hi, Since I have been effectively banned from desktop devel (my posts take two weeks to be moderated), I am sending this mail personally to people that have been active in the development. Michael Larabel has offered to host the survey in the Phoronix site, so I have been able to bring back many questions and not limit it to 10. I have incorporated all the suggestions and haven't had received any more in a while, so I think this is ready to go. I say we should launch it before the weekend, probably on Wednesday. Michael, is there anything else I need to do to help you put it on Phoronix? As usual, it's hosted here: https://gist.github.com/gists/1128166 Cheers. GNOME user survey 2011 === 03. Overall, how satisfied are you with GNOME? === [single choice] * not at all * barely * halfway * mostly * completely I didn't participate to this discussion before but i think the survey is pointless now because GNOME 3 wasn't presented to users at all. From the top 10 mainstream distributions, conform distrowatch, only 2 of them have gnome 3.0. In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse 12.1 -- Ionuț ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Ionut Biru io...@archlinux.ro wrote: I didn't participate to this discussion before but i think the survey is pointless now because GNOME 3 wasn't presented to users at all. From the top 10 mainstream distributions, conform distrowatch, only 2 of them have gnome 3.0. In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse 12.1 That would be what? December? I think that's too far, perhaps for the 2012 survey. -- Felipe Contreras ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On 19 September 2011 17:08, Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Ionut Biru io...@archlinux.ro wrote: I didn't participate to this discussion before but i think the survey is pointless now because GNOME 3 wasn't presented to users at all. From the top 10 mainstream distributions, conform distrowatch, only 2 of them have gnome 3.0. In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse 12.1 That would be what? December? I think that's too far, perhaps for the 2012 survey. I agree with Ionut. For big distros, GNOME 3 has only been officially released on Fedora Arch. If you want to get the opinions of normal users, it would be better to wait a few more months to pick up OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, maybe even Debian unstable, and Fedora 16 (of course Fedora 15 had GNOME 3 too), etc. Jeremy ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Ionut Biru io...@archlinux.ro wrote: [snip] In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse 12.1 That would be what? December? I think that's too far, perhaps for the 2012 survey. Why does the survey *have* to be done *right now* at all? I thought the primary aim of this survey was to give useful feedback which would be used to improve GNOME. The first step in evaluating software is to use the latest version — there's no use asking people for feedback about GNOME 3.0 when 3.2 is coming out in a week. There's been a lot of work done to improve GNOME 3 over the last 6 months. A lot of the complaints of GNOME 3.0 have been already addressed. Why not just do it after (even more!) distros ship GNOME 3.2? Cheers, -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6)
There's been a lot of work done to improve GNOME 3 over the last 6 months. A lot of the complaints of GNOME 3.0 have been already addressed. Why not just do it after (even more!) distros ship GNOME 3.2? The first one is probably going to shed more light on what should be asked than anything else. So why not do it now ? It will also be a basis upon which you can compare a 2012 survey. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
