[OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
As an answer to a thread initiated by Serge Wroclawski a year ago, Alex Barth wrote: A messaging API that uses an OAuth based flow would be a great thing to have and it would be hard to abuse for spamming. Messages could only be sent from applications users have explicitly opted in to and only to users who have allowed this application to send them messages (opt-in or opt-out for messaging preferences TBD). I think the map roulette use case is a great illustration of how such a messaging API would facilitate better tools in the OSM orbit. Messaging is a huge part of building good web tools. An other good example of an application which would make good usage of a messaging API is the Tasking Manager. Even more if we consider a more robust validation process within the tool. I'm interested to know if the opinions have changed on this topic. Best regards. Pierre -- - | Pierre GIRAUD - ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
Hi! I strongly advice against a general mass messaging API. If there is a messaging API it can be used for spamming. That we already have minor spamming issues is no argument for making them worse. A mechanism where a user has to explicitly opt-in into receiving mass messages when authorizing and application might work. A major point when I am advertising OSM and trying to recruit new mappers is the statement: Just make an account, it's simple, free and guaranteed that you get no SPAM or ads. Breaking with that might make a very bad impression. Even putting an opt-in OSM mechanism into the service of one or a few selected applications might hurt the neutral and unproblematic status. Therefore I believe it is a good thing that there is no way to send mass mails through OSM and would like to keep it that way. bye, Nop -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Sending-messages-to-users-tp5805236p5805595.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
A messaging API that uses an OAuth based flow would be a great thing to have and it would be hard to abuse for spamming. Messages could only be sent from applications users have explicitly opted in to and only to users who have allowed this application to send them messages (opt-in or opt-out for messaging preferences TBD). I think the map roulette use case is a great illustration of how such a messaging API would facilitate better tools in the OSM orbit. Messaging is a huge part of building good web tools. On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, MapRoulette has made a choice to try to collect as little data from our users as possible. We don't require a separate login other than from osm.org, we don't collect email addresses or anything else. This is good for MapRoulette users, and I think good for OSM in general that we don't have lots of separate systems. The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. Otherwise, we have to build our own messaging system, or start collecting user information (email address, etc.). The reason I've been told that we don't allow for an API to messaging is that we don't want spam, but: 1. This is a legitimate issue, of needing to message users, both in this context and in other contexts (DWG comes to mind of a place where we would benefit from this). 2. We already have spam issues on osm.org. I clean up spam not infrequently in the form of notes, which can be anonymous, but we also get spam from signed in users, as well as profiles, etc. 3. I'm not arguing that we need to make this feature available to every single user, but it might be a nice thing to allow for some use cases as above. What do others think? - Serge ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
Hey all, MapRoulette has made a choice to try to collect as little data from our users as possible. We don't require a separate login other than from osm.org, we don't collect email addresses or anything else. This is good for MapRoulette users, and I think good for OSM in general that we don't have lots of separate systems. The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. Otherwise, we have to build our own messaging system, or start collecting user information (email address, etc.). The reason I've been told that we don't allow for an API to messaging is that we don't want spam, but: 1. This is a legitimate issue, of needing to message users, both in this context and in other contexts (DWG comes to mind of a place where we would benefit from this). 2. We already have spam issues on osm.org. I clean up spam not infrequently in the form of notes, which can be anonymous, but we also get spam from signed in users, as well as profiles, etc. 3. I'm not arguing that we need to make this feature available to every single user, but it might be a nice thing to allow for some use cases as above. What do others think? - Serge ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
Does the MapRoulette program itself log into the API with an ID? If so, it should be possible to have a category of user IDs that have the privilege of sending it through the API, without opening the door to just anyone to send messages. On May 5, 2014 8:52:43 AM CDT, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, MapRoulette has made a choice to try to collect as little data from our users as possible. We don't require a separate login other than from osm.org, we don't collect email addresses or anything else. This is good for MapRoulette users, and I think good for OSM in general that we don't have lots of separate systems. The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. Otherwise, we have to build our own messaging system, or start collecting user information (email address, etc.). The reason I've been told that we don't allow for an API to messaging is that we don't want spam, but: 1. This is a legitimate issue, of needing to message users, both in this context and in other contexts (DWG comes to mind of a place where we would benefit from this). 2. We already have spam issues on osm.org. I clean up spam not infrequently in the form of notes, which can be anonymous, but we also get spam from signed in users, as well as profiles, etc. 3. I'm not arguing that we need to make this feature available to every single user, but it might be a nice thing to allow for some use cases as above. What do others think? - Serge ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
On Mo, Mai 05, 2014 at 09:52:43 -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote: MapRoulette has made a choice to try to collect as little data from our users as possible. We don't require a separate login other than from osm.org, we don't collect email addresses or anything else. Unfortunately when I wanted to try MapRoulette and had to do the OAuth thing on osm.org it asked for: * read your user preferences. * modify your user preferences. I am not sure what user preferences entails, but for me that sounds like allow to change password and allow to set home location etc. All things MapRoulette doesn't need to change. You might not use all these rights, but you are asking for it. Might be because there is no way to ask for less rights? Or maybe it is bad wording on OSMs part? But I don't give out blank cheques to everybody, so for me MapRoulette is unusable for that reason. Sorry, I highjacked your thread here, but maybe we need to think more fundamentally about what rights a random application would need and should get or not get. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-721-388298 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
Am 05.05.2014 15:52, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. Serge, what exactly is the use case you are thinking of or better: what messages are you thinking of sending? A message API would seem to only be required if we are talking about very high volume (a lot more than the 100 or so welcome messages I send per month). I'not arguing against being able to contact mappers better, quite the contrary (I suggested the API extension which allows editors to show you how many messages you have), just need to understand what your needs are. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
On 5 May 2014 15:52, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. You can try doing that with this python API, https://github.com/balrog-kun/osm-scripts/blob/master/message-py2.py. You'll be subject to the same number of messages limits as everyone else. The API may also break unanounced but it's been working for over 2 years now. Looking for some information about OSM not allowing for a messaging API I only found a mention on the 0.7 planning wiki page suggesting that a more complete functionality may be in planning. Cheers ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
Simon, An example of the kind of thing we'd like to send messages. Sending messages that you should try a harder challenge For example, if the average time to fix a task in challenge foo is 30 seconds, and you only take 20 seconds, maybe you should try something harder Sending messages about false fixes If I claim to have fixed 2000 tasks, but then the server sees that all 2000 still remain as problems, we want to send a message This isn't an exhaustive list, but it's the kind of thing where we'd like to reach out to OSM users, and right now, there's no way to do that without implementing it ourselves. - Serge On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Am 05.05.2014 15:52, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. Serge, what exactly is the use case you are thinking of or better: what messages are you thinking of sending? A message API would seem to only be required if we are talking about very high volume (a lot more than the 100 or so welcome messages I send per month). I'not arguing against being able to contact mappers better, quite the contrary (I suggested the API extension which allows editors to show you how many messages you have), just need to understand what your needs are. Simon ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
My 2 cents: I think making permission to send mail to a user contingent on the user in question authorizing the application to do so is probably the way forward. I would suggest as a rule always making it optional for participation in any OSM related activity. Alternatively we could simply allow access to the e-mail address (as above) instead of adding a public API to the message system, there are just some privacy issues that I would see with that. Now there's the just the small matter of actually coding it Simon Am 05.05.2014 18:27, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: Simon, An example of the kind of thing we'd like to send messages. Sending messages that you should try a harder challenge For example, if the average time to fix a task in challenge foo is 30 seconds, and you only take 20 seconds, maybe you should try something harder Sending messages about false fixes If I claim to have fixed 2000 tasks, but then the server sees that all 2000 still remain as problems, we want to send a message This isn't an exhaustive list, but it's the kind of thing where we'd like to reach out to OSM users, and right now, there's no way to do that without implementing it ourselves. - Serge On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Am 05.05.2014 15:52, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: The problem is that we are needing to send messages to users. Ideally, those messages would go through osm.org. Serge, what exactly is the use case you are thinking of or better: what messages are you thinking of sending? A message API would seem to only be required if we are talking about very high volume (a lot more than the 100 or so welcome messages I send per month). I'not arguing against being able to contact mappers better, quite the contrary (I suggested the API extension which allows editors to show you how many messages you have), just need to understand what your needs are. Simon ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
Hi Jochen, On 5 May 2014, at 15:16, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote: On Mo, Mai 05, 2014 at 09:52:43 -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote: MapRoulette has made a choice to try to collect as little data from our users as possible. We don't require a separate login other than from osm.org, we don't collect email addresses or anything else. Unfortunately when I wanted to try MapRoulette and had to do the OAuth thing on osm.org it asked for: * read your user preferences. * modify your user preferences. I am not sure what user preferences entails, but for me that sounds like allow to change password and allow to set home location etc. All things MapRoulette doesn't need to change. You might not use all these rights, but you are asking for it. Might be because there is no way to ask for less rights? Or maybe it is bad wording on OSMs part? But I don't give out blank cheques to everybody, so for me MapRoulette is unusable for that reason. Sorry, I highjacked your thread here, but maybe we need to think more fundamentally about what rights a random application would need and should get or not get. The User preferences permission is for a set of key value pairs, as read and write, which is accessible to all apps. There’s currently no way to sandbox these preferences to a specific OpenID provider. They are not related to your password at all, you need to use the website for that. It will allow reading (not writing) of the data behind the following API call too: http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/user/details (login with your normal username and password). They are not related to your password at all, you need to use the website for that. Shaun ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users
-Original Message- From: Jochen Topf [mailto:joc...@remote.org] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 7:17 AM To: Serge Wroclawski Cc: OpenStreetMap Development Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Sending messages to users On Mo, Mai 05, 2014 at 09:52:43 -0400, Serge Wroclawski wrote: MapRoulette has made a choice to try to collect as little data from our users as possible. We don't require a separate login other than from osm.org, we don't collect email addresses or anything else. Unfortunately when I wanted to try MapRoulette and had to do the OAuth thing on osm.org it asked for: * read your user preferences. * modify your user preferences. I am not sure what user preferences entails, but for me that sounds like allow to change password and allow to set home location etc. All things MapRoulette doesn't need to change. User preferences are arbitrary key-value pairs. I don't think it includes other things, which aren't part of the API. Preferences is reasonably clear to me, but can you suggest an alternative wording? ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
