Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 8:24 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: i agree, but would go further and suggest that the debugging view might be better constructed on top of the showcase style, rather than being able to (d)evolve independently of it. i would further suggest that the gratification of seeing changes rendered is strongly reliant on those changes being visible directly on osm.org, which (i think) leads to the conclusion that these two views cannot be separate, and must be integrated somehow. As for being visible directly on osm.org, I guess we can reiterate the idea that we use the showcase style for non-logged in visitors, and the debugging style for logged-in users. I also agree that it's probably best that the debugging style is simply an additional layer of style code (XML, Carto, whatever else) on top of the showcase style. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: Matt Amos wrote: i'd sound a note of caution about having separate clean and detailed styles. we sort-of did that before with mapnik and osmarender respectively and... well, we don't have osmarender any more. That was a technology failure, though, rather than anything wrong with the concept itself. the greater resources required to render osmarender worldwide may have played a part, but that part of the problem was the one getting the most attention with tiles@home and so forth. my take on it was that many, perhaps most, people felt the extremely detailed style that osmarender/tiles@home was producing wasn't as pleasant as the mapnik style, so it got second billing, less re-use, and that's what led to its decline. In principle, there are clear, identifiable, distinct needs for a showcase style and a debugging view. We want the great unwashed to look at OSM and say wow, that's a complete, accurate map; and we want our mappers to enjoy the gratification of seeing their changes rendered, because that's a powerful incentive to keep contributing. (I use the word view rather than style because it's conceivable that the latter could be provided some other way than a traditional Mapnik stylesheet, perhaps something along the lines of Kothic-JS.) i agree, but would go further and suggest that the debugging view might be better constructed on top of the showcase style, rather than being able to (d)evolve independently of it. i would further suggest that the gratification of seeing changes rendered is strongly reliant on those changes being visible directly on osm.org, which (i think) leads to the conclusion that these two views cannot be separate, and must be integrated somehow. (For the showcase style, personally I think XML vs CSS is more of a problem than svn vs git, but that's an implementation detail.) i'd like to applaud Andy Allan's recent work in this area [1]. this is excellent stuff, and many thanks to Andy for starting it :-) cheers, matt [1] https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk writes: The thing that I was trying to have a stab at England and Wales designation rendering, a bit like this question: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19032 However, after a lot of buggering about it had stopped raining, so I went back outside (where mkgmap-based Garmin maps, with muppet-proof style file support, can render absolutely any OSM feature without problems!). This sounds like Trac ticket 3968[1] for which I added a link[2] to a proof-of-concept Mapnik stylesheet a week ago. [1] https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3968 [2] http://www.gedanken.org.uk/mapping/custom-maps/#H_1_3_4 -- Andrew. -- Andrew M. Bishop a...@gedanken.demon.co.uk http://www.gedanken.org.uk/mapping/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Paweł Paprota wrote: My statement was based on my own experience with open source projects. I cannot be bothered to find some hard evidence that Github makes people much likely to contribute though, it's just a fact. :-) Your own experience is (I'm guessing) open source coding projects, though, not cartography projects. git is really insanely hard to understand if you're not a coder. I'm barely a coder and it boggles my head, every time. I can do three things with git, and for anything else I end up asking Andy or Matt or Tom or someone. Or Google. Whether or not we use git or svn for the Mapnik stylesheet is a question, but not one which I think will have much bearing on the willingness of people with cartography nous to contribute. More important are: - moving from something that cartographers can't understand (XML) to something they might be able to (CSS) - reducing the need for an industrial rendering stack to test changes, and instead being able to prototype on the desktop or via the web cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Status-of-the-Mapnik-stylesheets-tp5735606p5735898.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/15/2012 09:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Whether or not we use git or svn for the Mapnik stylesheet is a question, but not one which I think will have much bearing on the willingness of people with cartography nous to contribute. More important are: - moving from something that cartographers can't understand (XML) to something they might be able to (CSS) - reducing the need for an industrial rendering stack to test changes, and instead being able to prototype on the desktop or via the web Would that be something to help with? Especially the second part looks like it may help - kind of a playground area with the current rendering stack available + some simple UI to try out changes, perhaps even use it as a pastebin - you can show people your changes etc. Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Paweł Paprota wrote: On 11/15/2012 09:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Whether or not we use git or svn for the Mapnik stylesheet is a question, but not one which I think will have much bearing on the willingness of people with cartography nous to contribute. More important are: - moving from something that cartographers can't understand (XML) to something they might be able to (CSS) - reducing the need for an industrial rendering stack to test changes, and instead being able to prototype on the desktop or via the web Would that be something to help with? Especially the second part looks like it may help - kind of a playground area with the current rendering stack available + some simple UI to try out changes, perhaps even use it as a pastebin - you can show people your changes etc. Well, the switch2osm site exists (thanks Richard), but it doesn't include a how do I fiddle about with a style to render the sort of things that I'm interested in or more importantly how do I get those in the rendering database in the first place. There are the usual bits and pieces on the wiki and various other sites, but nothing that draws it together. The thing that I was trying to have a stab at England and Wales designation rendering, a bit like this question: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19032 However, after a lot of buggering about it had stopped raining, so I went back outside (where mkgmap-based Garmin maps, with muppet-proof style file support, can render absolutely any OSM feature without problems!). Cheers, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
There is anyway an issue with the current Trac instance : source: subversion/applications/rendering/mapnik/osm.xml @ 28049 HTML preview not available, since the file size exceeds 102400 bytes. Could somebody increase this limit to 200-300K ? According to the wiki it's in /var/lib/trac/conf/trac.ini on Shenron. [mimeviewer] max_preview_size = 30 Yves 2012/11/14 Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com Tom MacWright wrote The biggest problem with the Mapnik stylesheet right now is that it's in SVN. Not the technology, but the fact that this gives people without commit access to that repository no clear way to contribute. There is no way to 'just do it' until the style is actually maintained in GitHub, actually welcomes contributions, and has active maintainers. Until then we're just talking. I though SVN actually worked better than github for projects that don't have a maintainer. The SVN repository used to have a very inclusive account policy. I.e. basically anyone could get an account and then commit to any part of the repository. So people could just do it and commit their patches to the master branch of a project even if there was no clear or active maintainer. So people didn't even have to wait for someone to pull their patch into the maintainers repository. Whether those changes would then actually get deployed to the OSMF tileserver is another matter, but that is the same issue with any github repository too. But yes, I agree that currently the lack of a maintainer for the osm mapnik style sheet is probably the main problem. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Status-of-the-Mapnik-stylesheets-tp5735606p5735694.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Hi, On 11/13/2012 11:36 PM, Tom MacWright wrote: There is no way to 'just do it' until the style is actually maintained in GitHub, actually welcomes contributions, and has active maintainers. Point 3 (active maintainers) is undoubtedly true. Point 2 (welcome contributions) is slightly difficult with the style as we do expect a certain amount of cartographic consistency. The Mapnik style is not something where people can scratch their personal itch by adding an icon or dash pattern for whatever they want rendered and then believe it will be added just like that; they ought to talk to the maintainers (see point 3) before. - This sounds rather obvious; you wouldn't change the design of a software package maintained by someone else and not talk to them before. But because it is so easy to e.g. add an icon, people are tempted to just fire off a patch and this later turns out to be a waste of time because it doesn't fit the overall concept. So yes, welcome contributions, but maybe one should have a so you want to contribute to the style document that suggests certain processes. Point 1 is purely a matter of taste; people are just doing it with trac as well (and suffering from 2/3 there too). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/14/2012 12:04 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Point 1 is purely a matter of taste; people are just doing it with trac as well (and suffering from 2/3 there too). Surely you cannot deny the fact that Github has extremely positive effects on development? Why Trac has nowhere near such an effect I couldn't say but it is just the truth that once you put something on Github, people are *much* more likely to contribute. With open source projects nowadays, having something in SVN and Trac is like putting it in the basement and waiting until someone asks to see your basement... Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Hi, On 11/14/2012 12:57 PM, Paweł Paprota wrote: With open source projects nowadays, having something in SVN and Trac is like putting it in the basement and waiting until someone asks to see your basement... This particular basement seems to have been visited at least 400 times without us doing something about it, so I think lack of interest is the least of our problems ;) I fully agree that GitHub is popular, but it is a pet peeve of mine to point out that alternatives exist, just like other people will complain if an Open Source project runs its mailing list on Google or so. With GitHub in the hands of a commercial company I fear that before too long they'll do something stupid to monetize the user base; this has happened countless times before. As the old adage goes, if you're not paying for the product then you are the product. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Hi all, On 14/11/12 12:57, Paweł Paprota wrote: Surely you cannot deny the fact that Github has extremely positive effects on development? I don't see the point in discussing SVN/Trac vs. Git/GitHub as both systems are already in place. :-) The problem I see is that both systems are unmaintained. Cheers, Simon ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/14/2012 01:09 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: I fully agree that GitHub is popular, but it is a pet peeve of mine to point out that alternatives exist, just like other people will complain if an Open Source project runs its mailing list on Google or so. With GitHub in the hands of a commercial company I fear that before too long they'll do something stupid to monetize the user base; this has happened countless times before. As the old adage goes, if you're not paying for the product then you are the product. I agree it's not ideal to use a closed and commercial solution for such an important thing like development and issue tracking. I believe the way OSM does it currently is the correct one - maintain own Git repos plus mirror them on Github. So I guess the main question is about issue tracking and maintainer support - here there is no easy way to mirror stuff... Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/14/2012 01:10 PM, Simon Legner wrote: Hi all, On 14/11/12 12:57, Paweł Paprota wrote: Surely you cannot deny the fact that Github has extremely positive effects on development? I don't see the point in discussing SVN/Trac vs. Git/GitHub as both systems are already in place. :-) The problem I see is that both systems are unmaintained. Agreed - I should have been more clear that by putting something on Github I don't only mean creating an account and setting up a Git/SVN mirroring but also supporting contributors, tracking issues/pull requests there etc. And that of course circles back to what you said about maintainership... Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Matt Amos wrote: i'd sound a note of caution about having separate clean and detailed styles. we sort-of did that before with mapnik and osmarender respectively and... well, we don't have osmarender any more. That was a technology failure, though, rather than anything wrong with the concept itself. In principle, there are clear, identifiable, distinct needs for a showcase style and a debugging view. We want the great unwashed to look at OSM and say wow, that's a complete, accurate map; and we want our mappers to enjoy the gratification of seeing their changes rendered, because that's a powerful incentive to keep contributing. (I use the word view rather than style because it's conceivable that the latter could be provided some other way than a traditional Mapnik stylesheet, perhaps something along the lines of Kothic-JS.) So the problems we have right now are: - we don't have a debugging view, and that leads to inappropriate pressure on the showcase style (e.g. the 8,000 tints for subtly different forms of landuse) - the showcase style is temporarily stalled due to technological issues and both need fixing sooner rather than later. (For the showcase style, personally I think XML vs CSS is more of a problem than svn vs git, but that's an implementation detail.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Status-of-the-Mapnik-stylesheets-tp5735606p5735775.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, Frederik Ramm wrote: I fully agree that GitHub is popular, but it is a pet peeve of mine to point out that alternatives exist, just like other people will complain if an Open Source project runs its mailing list on Google or so. With GitHub in the hands of a commercial company I fear that before too long they'll do something stupid to monetize the user base; this has happened countless times before. As the old adage goes, if you're not paying for the product then you are the product. Lots of people *are* paying for it though. I certainly am. cheers, Derick ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Nov 14, 2012, at 3:57 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote: On 11/14/2012 12:04 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Point 1 is purely a matter of taste; people are just doing it with trac as well (and suffering from 2/3 there too). Surely you cannot deny the fact that Github has extremely positive effects on development? Why Trac has nowhere near such an effect I couldn't say but it is just the truth that once you put something on Github, people are *much* more likely to contribute. [citation needed] With open source projects nowadays, having something in SVN and Trac is like putting it in the basement and waiting until someone asks to see your basement... Github is undoubtedly awesome, but as you said elsewhere in this thread the real need is also supporting contributors, tracking issues/pull requests there etc., human needs that extend from community support rather than choice of technology platform. I imagine that if a proper study was done comparing Github at its current age to other systems at four years of development, there would be a similar proportion of abandoned or ignored projects on all of them. Github is new enough to benefit from the Hawthorne Effect, and maybe moving the OSM.xml stylesheet there would allow it to bask in some of that glow for a period of time. The stylesheet is also an organically-grown system, and as Frederik pointed out it's not a good idea to just accept pull requests willy-nilly from anyone who wants to see their pet tag rendered. Not to mention the ease with which a punishing, unsustainable Postgres query might be introduced, or potential inconsistencies in osm2pgsql style column mappings across systems. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:23 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: - we don't have a debugging view, and that leads to inappropriate pressure on the showcase style (e.g. the 8,000 tints for subtly different forms of landuse) Actually we do, and that's the data layer. Unfortunately, I think there's a perception that the data layer doesn't provide the gratification that mappers want. Or maybe we just need to highlight this layer more. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 14/11/2012 16:34, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: Unfortunately, I think there's a perception that the data layer doesn't provide the gratification that mappers want. Absolutely, and it never well. The data layer looks less like a map than the MapCSS renderings in Potlatch and JOSM do. It's no substitute. cheers Richard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/14/2012 05:34 PM, Michal Migurski wrote: Why Trac has nowhere near such an effect I couldn't say but it is just the truth that once you put something on Github, people are *much* more likely to contribute. [citation needed] My statement was based on my own experience with open source projects. I cannot be bothered to find some hard evidence that Github makes people much likely to contribute though, it's just a fact. :-) The stylesheet is also an organically-grown system, and as Frederik pointed out it's not a good idea to just accept pull requests willy-nilly from anyone who wants to see their pet tag rendered. Not to mention the ease with which a punishing, unsustainable Postgres query might be introduced, or potential inconsistencies in osm2pgsql style column mappings across systems. Sure, the same is true for any software project really... accepting everything is not a good idea as it leads very quickly to feature creep and unmaintainable code base. However, this is getting a bit off-topic. I concede the point that Github vs Trac is not the most important discussion in the world while there's no activity with current 400+ issues. Not sure to whom I'm addressing this statement but... I'm involved in a number of OSM related things at the moment but if there is anything I could do to help with the current Mapnik/style situation then don't hesitate to contact me privately. I can do what I can to help with anything except for the esthetic aspects as I'm no artist :-) BTW, it feels like more and more people are asking about the main style development, hopefully some kind of critical mass is building and things will move forward soon. Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Le mercredi 14 novembre 2012 17:34:17, Eugene Alvin Villar a écrit : Actually we do, and that's the data layer. Unfortunately, I think there's a perception that the data layer doesn't provide the gratification that mappers want. Or maybe we just need to highlight this layer more. IMHO Your forgot an important feature mappers want : Have I done a mistake or not ? Even if we keep on telling them : don't map for the renderer (in the new sense it has become) they still want to know if what they've done is correct (correct in a non so obvious sense where answers is it in the wiki It's always correct because you can tag how you want are not what they expect) +the data layers isn't available as a JOSM slippy map selector (and the plugin download as you pan and zoom isn't as functional because it can hardly work on low zooms) -- sly (sylvain letuffe) ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: This requires a reload of the database to at least get public_transport=* in. To get a little bit more flexibility which such stuff we now use hstore and views on the german-style tileserver. The overhead is acceptable when using --hstore-match-only Our views ans the osm2pgsql style-file is compatible with the standard mapnik style and available here: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/mapnik-german/views/ Regards Sven -- Thinking of using NT for your critical apps? Isn't there enough suffering in the world? (Advertisement of Sun Microsystems in Wall Street Journal) /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 14/11/12 17:53, Paweł Paprota wrote: I cannot be bothered to find some hard evidence that Github makes people much likely to contribute though, it's just a fact. :-) Thats not the problem, people being likely to contribute! It's maintenance. Stop this github makes everything better insanity, really ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Hi all, I'd like to find out what the current status of the Mapnik stylesheets for www.osm.org is. The most recent changes are from June 2012 [1], and the number of open tickets in TRAC is 400 [2]. Who is responsible for incorporating changes? Is some help needed? How are those changes applied to the main rendering server? I'd like to see some accepted tagging systems like the public transport schema [3] be handled by the stylesheet. Cheers, Simon [1] https://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/subversion/applications/rendering/mapnik [2] https://trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnikstatus=!closedorder=changetimedesc=1max=500 [3] https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4381 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/13/2012 03:48 PM, Simon Legner wrote: Hi all, I'd like to find out what the current status of the Mapnik stylesheets for www.osm.org is. The most recent changes are from June 2012 [1], and the number of open tickets in TRAC is 400 [2]. Indeed... I looked at the same thing 2-3 weeks ago and also wondered about status, workflow etc... I'm in no position to help with the styles (I'm no cartographer/designer/whatever) so I dropped it. Who is responsible for incorporating changes? Is some help needed? How are those changes applied to the main rendering server? This was brought up several weeks ago on the mailing list by Mapbox folks when they tried to learn the very same things (look for wishlist threads from October). What is the current status and their plans for working on styling - I don't know. I'd like to see some accepted tagging systems like the public transport schema [3] be handled by the stylesheet. I'd say the priority should be bringing the main style onto the pretty side... Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 13-11-2012 15:48, Simon Legner wrote: I'd like to find out what the current status of the Mapnik stylesheets for www.osm.org is. The most recent changes are from June 2012 [1], and the number of open tickets in TRAC is 400 [2]. Currently it's in a bit of a holding pattern. Personally, I'm waiting for an update of the server, which should bring a newer version of the mapnik render software. The other regular maintainer is on Windows, and would need a Windows build of that mapnik to come back to developing the style. Who is responsible for incorporating changes? Is some help needed? How are those changes applied to the main rendering server? The changes are committed to svn. This is then retrieved on the OSM rendering server and rendering is restarted with the new style. I'd like to see some accepted tagging systems like the public transport schema [3] be handled by the stylesheet. This requires a reload of the database to at least get public_transport=* in. Handling role values, like stop, is not supported yet. -- Lennard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 13-11-2012 15:58, Paweł Paprota wrote: I'd say the priority should be bringing the main style onto the pretty side... If you take a look at the amount of open tickets, pretty clashes heavily with I want $feature rendered, where $feature ranges from 'yes, probably, sounds sane enough' to 'argh, what are you thinking'. :) -- Lennard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/13/2012 09:46 PM, Lennard wrote: On 13-11-2012 15:58, Paweł Paprota wrote: I'd say the priority should be bringing the main style onto the pretty side... If you take a look at the amount of open tickets, pretty clashes heavily with I want $feature rendered, where $feature ranges from 'yes, probably, sounds sane enough' to 'argh, what are you thinking'. :) Sure, I browsed through those tickets briefly and some of them are important. However, I don't think working on the look and feel side of things (especially low zoom levels...) and fixing/adding stuff are mutually exclusive. Of course there's the question of manpower, hopefully Mapbox folks plan to do some work in this area as part of the grant. Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/13/2012 11:13 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: I would rather see as much useful things rendered that make sense for *mappers*. Pretty tiles should also be made, but as far as I know, the default style that is on openstreetmap.org is for *us* - the people who add data. Well, that's the usual question about what is osm.org supposed to be. I believe that by making it more usable (and also simply - prettier) we can take the project to the next level much more easily. Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Le mardi 13 novembre 2012 23:25:44, Paweł Paprota a écrit : On 11/13/2012 11:13 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: I would rather see as much useful things rendered that make sense for *mappers*. Pretty tiles should also be made, but as far as I know, the default style that is on openstreetmap.org is for *us* - the people who add data. Well, that's the usual question about what is osm.org supposed to be. I share Derick's view, but maybe what we need is someone to just do it and split the problem in two maps. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors_functionalities_wishlist#Backgound_map_with_the_most_possible_objects -- sly (sylvain letuffe) ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/13/2012 11:32 PM, sly (sylvain letuffe) wrote: I share Derick's view, but maybe what we need is someone to just do it and split the problem in two maps. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors_functionalities_wishlist#Backgound_map_with_the_most_possible_objects Sure, everything is usually done by just doing it :-) Paweł ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
The biggest problem with the Mapnik stylesheet right now is that it's in SVN. Not the technology, but the fact that this gives people without commit access to that repository no clear way to contribute. There is no way to 'just do it' until the style is actually maintained in GitHub, actually welcomes contributions, and has active maintainers. Until then we're just talking. On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 5:32 PM, sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.orgwrote: Le mardi 13 novembre 2012 23:25:44, Paweł Paprota a écrit : On 11/13/2012 11:13 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: I would rather see as much useful things rendered that make sense for *mappers*. Pretty tiles should also be made, but as far as I know, the default style that is on openstreetmap.org is for *us* - the people who add data. Well, that's the usual question about what is osm.org supposed to be. I share Derick's view, but maybe what we need is someone to just do it and split the problem in two maps. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors_functionalities_wishlist#Backgound_map_with_the_most_possible_objects -- sly (sylvain letuffe) ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/13/2012 11:23 PM, Tom MacWright wrote: Ideally we can move the osm stylesheet to github, close non-actionable tickets and address those that can be addressed. I pretty much agree here. 400 tickets could turns into 50 pull requests merged in a week, just with a few clicks from the maintainers at lunch time. However some testing area or rendering metrics should be incorporated somewhere to check for efficiency. Yves ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 11/13/2012 09:45 PM, Lennard wrote: This requires a reload of the database to at least get public_transport=* in. Handling role values, like stop, is not supported yet. Could some columns be added live instead of a complete reload? ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Hi! On 13/11/12 23:36, Tom MacWright wrote: The biggest problem with the Mapnik stylesheet right now is that it's in SVN. Not the technology, but the fact that this gives people without commit access to that repository no clear way to contribute. There is no way to 'just do it' until the style is actually maintained in GitHub, actually welcomes contributions, and has active maintainers. Until then we're just talking. A GitHub mirror is available: https://github.com/openstreetmap/mapnik-stylesheets Those two pull requests haven't been handled for about one year … Cheers! ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 13/11/12 22:45, Simon Legner wrote: On 13/11/12 23:36, Tom MacWright wrote: The biggest problem with the Mapnik stylesheet right now is that it's in SVN. Not the technology, but the fact that this gives people without commit access to that repository no clear way to contribute. There is no way to 'just do it' until the style is actually maintained in GitHub, actually welcomes contributions, and has active maintainers. Until then we're just talking. A GitHub mirror is available: https://github.com/openstreetmap/mapnik-stylesheets Those two pull requests haven't been handled for about one year … Probably because nobody on mapnik-team will have seen them. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 13/11/12 22:42, yvecai wrote: On 11/13/2012 11:23 PM, Tom MacWright wrote: Ideally we can move the osm stylesheet to github, close non-actionable tickets and address those that can be addressed. I pretty much agree here. 400 tickets could turns into 50 pull requests merged in a week, just with a few clicks from the maintainers at lunch time. Well maybe not... We don't actually want every random POI icon that a user submits to be merged willy nilly - we want somebody to apply some cartographic thought when choosing what to merge. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On 13/11/12 22:43, yvecai wrote: On 11/13/2012 09:45 PM, Lennard wrote: This requires a reload of the database to at least get public_transport=* in. Handling role values, like stop, is not supported yet. Could some columns be added live instead of a complete reload? We plan to reload the database in the near future anyway, along with an OS upgrade and a move to a newer mapnik version. But to answer your question, not really, because it wouldn't be populated for any existing objects. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Btw … is someone trying to collect some mirrors? :-D https://github.com/openstreetmap/mapnik-stylesheets/tree/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/mirror/master ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
2012/11/13 Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu: Well maybe not... We don't actually want every random POI icon that a user submits to be merged willy nilly - we want somebody to apply some cartographic thought when choosing what to merge. That is an important point. Developing a map style is not completely comparable to writing a software application. On the other hand with the end of osmarender there is no real comunity style sheet any more in development. Something less aimed at consistency or beauty, but rather a patch work of the ideas of dozens of crazy mappers ;-) It would be nice if we could have both: the official mapnik style with cartographic thought and reduced display of features and a branch which is more a laboratory of different ideas. Many of the rarely used features wouldn't actually clutter the map if they were rendered, and there is still quite some important stuff missing which normally would appear on a map, for instance city gates (names), towers, castles (icon) etc. cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Nov 13, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Lennard wrote: On 13-11-2012 15:48, Simon Legner wrote: I'd like to find out what the current status of the Mapnik stylesheets for www.osm.org is. The most recent changes are from June 2012 [1], and the number of open tickets in TRAC is 400 [2]. Currently it's in a bit of a holding pattern. Personally, I'm waiting for an update of the server, which should bring a newer version of the mapnik render software. I am actively maintaining a Mapnik 2.1.x series. Currently Mapnik master is targeting 2.2 but over the next couple weeks more stability fixes will be backported to 2.1.x. I think this would be a great release to target. Its not got a fixed release schedule, but could drop whenever needed. The other regular maintainer is on Windows, and would need a Windows build of that mapnik to come back to developing the style. Thanks for raising this. I'd love to see Steve involved in whatever forms future styles take, as his time allows, and this is critical. Mapnik 2.1.1 will come with Windows binaries when released, with both python bindings and node.js bindings provided. I'm sorry about not providing Windows binaries yet for Mapnik 2.x. The holdup is that I have a dev environment working that is running Visual Studio 2010, and I need to get a parallel setup running Visual Studio 2008 for support compiling the python bindings. Its a silly blocker, but will take time which I've yet to carve out. Dane ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: There is no way to 'just do it' until the style ... has active maintainers. Until then we're just talking. seems like this might be the major hurdle - there do seem to be people willing to contribute on this thread, but uncertainty about who is / will be the maintainer and take on the long-term responsibility of choosing which contributions to take. i'd sound a note of caution about having separate clean and detailed styles. we sort-of did that before with mapnik and osmarender respectively and... well, we don't have osmarender any more. cheers, matt ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Matt Amos wrote i'd sound a note of caution about having separate clean and detailed styles. we sort-of did that before with mapnik and osmarender respectively and... well, we don't have osmarender any more. I doubt that having to maintain two styles was what killed osmarender. It was a technological issue in that the renderer required far too many resources while being less powerful than mapnik in the end and made it difficult to maintain the required server infrastructure. I am hoping that client side rendering (e.g. KothicJS) with vector tiles (geojson) will replace the purpose of osmarender one day. It should allow a wide variety of different styles without added server resource requirements, including e.g. a detailed community style. It would also make it much easier for people to experiment with all sorts of specific purpose styles and showing them to the world without having to shell out for a beefy tile rendering server to do so. That way OSMF can host one cartographically clean and tightly maintained, but fairly comprehensive bitmap style and one json vector tile style, while covering a broad set of wishes and needs. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Status-of-the-Mapnik-stylesheets-tp5735606p5735692.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Dane Springmeyer wrote I'm sorry about not providing Windows binaries yet for Mapnik 2.x. The holdup is that I have a dev environment working that is running Visual Studio 2010, and I need to get a parallel setup running Visual Studio 2008 for support compiling the python bindings. Its a silly blocker, but will take time which I've yet to carve out. Last time you mentioned that one thing holding up compiling a new version of osm2pgsql for Windows was its use of C99. I think I have now ported it back to ansi C. Could you give compiling osm2pgsql another go at some point and let me know what else needs fixing to get it to work on Windows? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Status-of-the-Mapnik-stylesheets-tp5735606p5735693.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Status of the Mapnik stylesheets
Tom MacWright wrote The biggest problem with the Mapnik stylesheet right now is that it's in SVN. Not the technology, but the fact that this gives people without commit access to that repository no clear way to contribute. There is no way to 'just do it' until the style is actually maintained in GitHub, actually welcomes contributions, and has active maintainers. Until then we're just talking. I though SVN actually worked better than github for projects that don't have a maintainer. The SVN repository used to have a very inclusive account policy. I.e. basically anyone could get an account and then commit to any part of the repository. So people could just do it and commit their patches to the master branch of a project even if there was no clear or active maintainer. So people didn't even have to wait for someone to pull their patch into the maintainers repository. Whether those changes would then actually get deployed to the OSMF tileserver is another matter, but that is the same issue with any github repository too. But yes, I agree that currently the lack of a maintainer for the osm mapnik style sheet is probably the main problem. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Status-of-the-Mapnik-stylesheets-tp5735606p5735694.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
