Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Ehsan Akhgari]

I also think there is value in implementing this on desktop.

The issue of lack of support for styling form controls is not new, and 
it hurts all form controls.  I wouldn't make the perfect the enemy of 
the good here.


On 2015-11-01 10:21 PM, Kartikaya Gupta wrote:

IMO given the number of people who have complained about the lack of
this feature on bug 825294, we should assume it is desirable to have
even if unstylable. If somebody claims otherwise the burden of proof
should be on them to show data that falsifies the assumption.

kats

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Xidorn Quan > wrote:
 > On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
 >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Xidorn Quan > wrote:
 >>> Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
 >>> is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
 >>> start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.
 >>
 >> I think this is true for a *very* small number of authors. Small
 >> enough that we should spend our time on more impactful things.
 >>
 >> Look at the tooling websites that we use within mozilla. bugzilla.m.o,
 >> treeherder.m.o, wiki.m.o and MDN all care about a pleasant look and
 >> feel.
 >
 > OK, let's look at bugzilla.m.o. It uses ,  type="file/checkbox/radio"> without any special style on them. Do they
 > look very bad within its context?
 >
 > Actually it seems to me, as we do not provide any decent method for
 > styling things inside form controls, pushing people to mix normal form
 > controls with jQuery UI components could be even worse for UI
 > consistency.
 >
 >> Also remember that jQuery UI also works fine for websites that "just
 >> wants something usable".
 >
 > It unnecessarily bloats the page. It requires the whole huge jQuery
 > plus two additional jQuery UI files, which should have been completely
 > avoidable for a page designed for modern browsers.

I'd really recommend talking to web developers rather than guessing at
their needs.

I hear *a lot* of webdevelopers complaining about the lack of ability
to style current controls. But don't take my word for it, do reach out
to developers, we have a developer relations team that I'm sure is
happy to help.

/ Jonas
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Xidorn Quan]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
>> Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
>> is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
>> start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.
>
> I think this is true for a *very* small number of authors. Small
> enough that we should spend our time on more impactful things.
>
> Look at the tooling websites that we use within mozilla. bugzilla.m.o,
> treeherder.m.o, wiki.m.o and MDN all care about a pleasant look and
> feel.

OK, let's look at bugzilla.m.o. It uses ,  without any special style on them. Do they
look very bad within its context?

Actually it seems to me, as we do not provide any decent method for
styling things inside form controls, pushing people to mix normal form
controls with jQuery UI components could be even worse for UI
consistency.

> Also remember that jQuery UI also works fine for websites that "just
> wants something usable".

It unnecessarily bloats the page. It requires the whole huge jQuery
plus two additional jQuery UI files, which should have been completely
avoidable for a page designed for modern browsers.

- Xidorn
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Kartikaya Gupta]

IMO given the number of people who have complained about the lack of this
feature on bug 825294, we should assume it is desirable to have even if
unstylable. If somebody claims otherwise the burden of proof should be on
them to show data that falsifies the assumption.

kats
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Xidorn Quan 
wrote:
>>> Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
>>> is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
>>> start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.
>>
>> I think this is true for a *very* small number of authors. Small
>> enough that we should spend our time on more impactful things.
>>
>> Look at the tooling websites that we use within mozilla. bugzilla.m.o,
>> treeherder.m.o, wiki.m.o and MDN all care about a pleasant look and
>> feel.
>
> OK, let's look at bugzilla.m.o. It uses ,  type="file/checkbox/radio"> without any special style on them. Do they
> look very bad within its context?
>
> Actually it seems to me, as we do not provide any decent method for
> styling things inside form controls, pushing people to mix normal form
> controls with jQuery UI components could be even worse for UI
> consistency.
>
>> Also remember that jQuery UI also works fine for websites that "just
>> wants something usable".
>
> It unnecessarily bloats the page. It requires the whole huge jQuery
> plus two additional jQuery UI files, which should have been completely
> avoidable for a page designed for modern browsers.

I'd really recommend talking to web developers rather than guessing at
their needs.

I hear *a lot* of webdevelopers complaining about the lack of ability
to style current controls. But don't take my word for it, do reach out
to developers, we have a developer relations team that I'm sure is
happy to help.

/ Jonas
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Jonas Sicking]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
>>> Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
>>> is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
>>> start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.
>>
>> I think this is true for a *very* small number of authors. Small
>> enough that we should spend our time on more impactful things.
>>
>> Look at the tooling websites that we use within mozilla. bugzilla.m.o,
>> treeherder.m.o, wiki.m.o and MDN all care about a pleasant look and
>> feel.
>
> OK, let's look at bugzilla.m.o. It uses ,  type="file/checkbox/radio"> without any special style on them. Do they
> look very bad within its context?
>
> Actually it seems to me, as we do not provide any decent method for
> styling things inside form controls, pushing people to mix normal form
> controls with jQuery UI components could be even worse for UI
> consistency.
>
>> Also remember that jQuery UI also works fine for websites that "just
>> wants something usable".
>
> It unnecessarily bloats the page. It requires the whole huge jQuery
> plus two additional jQuery UI files, which should have been completely
> avoidable for a page designed for modern browsers.

I'd really recommend talking to web developers rather than guessing at
their needs.

I hear *a lot* of webdevelopers complaining about the lack of ability
to style current controls. But don't take my word for it, do reach out
to developers, we have a developer relations team that I'm sure is
happy to help.

/ Jonas
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Robert O'Callahan]

html5test.com gives points for supporting those  types. That alone
doesn't justifying doing them, but it's not nothing either.

Rob
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Robert Kaiser]

Jonas Sicking schrieb:

The main blocker, IMO, is that unless web authors can style these
controls to integrate well with the look and feel of the rest of their
website, they won't be interested in using these controls.


I'm not sure. I mean,  isn't decently styleable 
and people still use it a lot.


KaiRo

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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Xidorn Quan]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Ehsan Akhgari  
>> wrote:
>>> On 2015-10-29 7:21 PM, Carlos Valim Coragem  wrote:

   It seems that this problem only happens in the desktop version and not
 in
 mobile, I just did a test with the same webpage in version 34.0.1 of
 Firefox to Android and it worked!
>>>
>>>
>>> Your experience is expected.  We have an implementation of these form
>>> controls on Android, but not on desktop.  We have been waiting for UX specs
>>> for this feature on desktop, as you have discovered.  :-)
>>
>> We really should push UX people to have that done. It is a pain that
>> those things are not usable. Having those input types will save plenty
>> of time for frontend developers to make their apps support Firefox.
>> (Otherwise, they might just drop the Firefox support.)
>
> I don't think having a good UX is the main blocker here.
>
> The main blocker, IMO, is that unless web authors can style these
> controls to integrate well with the look and feel of the rest of their
> website, they won't be interested in using these controls.
>
> I.e. unless we make these stylable, simply using jQuery UI will
> provide websites and users with a better experience.

Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.

At least, some simple, tooling web apps do not need any styling at
all. They just need something sensible enough to use. We should enable
such usage without pushing them to use jQuery UI. (Actually, people
could sometimes prefer the system UI rather than the custom things
like jQuery UI.)

- Xidorn
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Jonas Sicking]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
> Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
> is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
> start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.

I think this is true for a *very* small number of authors. Small
enough that we should spend our time on more impactful things.

Look at the tooling websites that we use within mozilla. bugzilla.m.o,
treeherder.m.o, wiki.m.o and MDN all care about a pleasant look and
feel.

Also remember that jQuery UI also works fine for websites that "just
wants something usable".

/ Jonas
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Jonas Sicking]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Xidorn Quan  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Ehsan Akhgari  
> wrote:
>> On 2015-10-29 7:21 PM, Carlos Valim Coragem  wrote:
>>>
>>>   It seems that this problem only happens in the desktop version and not
>>> in
>>> mobile, I just did a test with the same webpage in version 34.0.1 of
>>> Firefox to Android and it worked!
>>
>>
>> Your experience is expected.  We have an implementation of these form
>> controls on Android, but not on desktop.  We have been waiting for UX specs
>> for this feature on desktop, as you have discovered.  :-)
>
> We really should push UX people to have that done. It is a pain that
> those things are not usable. Having those input types will save plenty
> of time for frontend developers to make their apps support Firefox.
> (Otherwise, they might just drop the Firefox support.)

I don't think having a good UX is the main blocker here.

The main blocker, IMO, is that unless web authors can style these
controls to integrate well with the look and feel of the rest of their
website, they won't be interested in using these controls.

I.e. unless we make these stylable, simply using jQuery UI will
provide websites and users with a better experience.

We still haven't managed to make something as simple as  styleable. Something like a date picker is *far* more
complex to style.

/ Jonas
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Carlos Valim Coragem]

Hi Jonas!

 Thanks for your response :)

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Xidorn Quan 
> wrote:
>> Authors sometimes just want something usable. It doesn't matter if it
>> is not stylable, or it doesn't fit in the UI. When they really need to
>> start caring about such things, they can switch to use jQuery UI then.
>
> I think this is true for a *very* small number of authors. Small
> enough that we should spend our time on more impactful things.


 I do not think implement these things is a waste of time, however, we
need to care about semantics too, it's much present in HTML5. I think do
not invest a little time to implement these semantic attributes is bad
for Firefox, it causes people to be thinking that Firefox has fallen
behind compared to other browsers. This is my humble opinion.


>
> Look at the tooling websites that we use within mozilla. bugzilla.m.o,
> treeherder.m.o, wiki.m.o and MDN all care about a pleasant look and
> feel.
>
> Also remember that jQuery UI also works fine for websites that "just
> wants something usable".


 If we can use these controls directly in the HTML, why shouldn't we use
them?


>
> / Jonas
>

Keep on rockin'!
Coragem

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www.coragem.info
Eu sou um membro da FSF - Ajude-nos a apoiar o software livre!
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Carlos Valim Coragem]

Hi Xidorn!

 Thanks for your response :)

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Ehsan Akhgari 
>>
>> Your experience is expected.  We have an implementation of these form
>> controls on Android, but not on desktop.  We have been waiting for UX
>> specs
>> for this feature on desktop, as you have discovered.  :-)
>
> We really should push UX people to have that done. It is a pain that
> those things are not usable. Having those input types will save plenty
> of time for frontend developers to make their apps support Firefox.
> (Otherwise, they might just drop the Firefox support.)
>
> - Xidorn
>

 Good point! I also think it's very important to implement these
attributes in Firefox, these attributes are in the HTML5 specs, so why
not implement them? Knowing that browsers like Chrome, Opera and IE are
supporting these attributes, I think Firefox has fallen behind in some
way.

Keep on rockin'!
Coragem

-- 
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www.coragem.info
Eu sou um membro da FSF - Ajude-nos a apoiar o software livre!
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Robert Kaiser]

Carlos Valim Coragem  schrieb:

  I asked this same question on channel #mozilla-br on IRC, a mozillian
gave me this link: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1069609 -
the bug was opened on 09-18-2014, the last comment was day 07-24-2015,
wondering if there was any progress on that.


https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825294 is actually the bug 
for this. Fun thing is that IIRC this is in HTML5 because of Mozilla's 
"Web Forms 2.0" specification proposed earlier - and we never 
implemented it so far...


KaiRo
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Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Carlos Valim Coragem]

Hi my friends!

 I'm not sure where I can ask this question, so I'm sorry in advance :P

 I'm having trouble using the attributes in the : date, time, week,
month and datetime - in Firefox.

 During a class in college, last Tuesday, the teacher taught HTML elements
when several students, including myself, could not test these attributes
in Firefox D:

 From what we have seen in the specifications of the W3C[1], these
attributes are in HTML5, as I know that Firefox really understand this
version of HTML, I was surprised that these attributes did not work or
they have not been implemented. Is there any particular reason not to
work?

 I asked this same question on channel #mozilla-br on IRC, a mozillian
gave me this link: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1069609 -
the bug was opened on 09-18-2014, the last comment was day 07-24-2015,
wondering if there was any progress on that.

 It seems that this problem only happens in the desktop version and not in
mobile, I just did a test with the same webpage in version 34.0.1 of
Firefox to Android and it worked!

 Here on my desktop I'm using the version 38.2.1 of Iceweasel in Debian
GNU/Linux. College students were using Windows 7 and Firefox 38.

 In Chrome, Opera and even IE it worked, only in our beloved red panda
browser we had this problem.

 Does anyone have any knowledge about this case?

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/input.html

Keep on rockin'!

Coragem

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www.coragem.info
Eu sou um membro da FSF - Ajude-nos a apoiar o software livre!
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Xidorn Quan]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Ehsan Akhgari  wrote:
> On 2015-10-29 7:21 PM, Carlos Valim Coragem  wrote:
>>
>>   It seems that this problem only happens in the desktop version and not
>> in
>> mobile, I just did a test with the same webpage in version 34.0.1 of
>> Firefox to Android and it worked!
>
>
> Your experience is expected.  We have an implementation of these form
> controls on Android, but not on desktop.  We have been waiting for UX specs
> for this feature on desktop, as you have discovered.  :-)

We really should push UX people to have that done. It is a pain that
those things are not usable. Having those input types will save plenty
of time for frontend developers to make their apps support Firefox.
(Otherwise, they might just drop the Firefox support.)

- Xidorn
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Re: Date, time, week, month and datetime attributes in the in Firefox

[Ehsan Akhgari]

On 2015-10-29 7:21 PM, Carlos Valim Coragem  wrote:

  It seems that this problem only happens in the desktop version and not in
mobile, I just did a test with the same webpage in version 34.0.1 of
Firefox to Android and it worked!


Your experience is expected.  We have an implementation of these form 
controls on Android, but not on desktop.  We have been waiting for UX 
specs for this feature on desktop, as you have discovered.  :-)


Also, one note about HTML5, HTML5 is the name of a modern specification 
 that web browsers including 
Firefox implement.  Don't think of this as a version 5, it is a "living 
standard", which means that we add things to it and fix the bugs in it 
over time.  Each browser engine usually lacks implementation of a few 
features, as there is always a gap between the standardization and 
implementation of feature.  Sometimes by years!


To find out what engine supports which part of the Web platform, you can 
use tools such as .


Cheers,
Ehsan
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