Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
I believe, an IDE release is not same as language support release. NetBeans (or any other) IDE, as far as I am concerned is “just an editor” and a framework for other language plugins. Then, say, PHP and even Java rides on top of that. Mixing these two concepts together creates too much conflict. Then, there is a sour feeling when hear how next version of language plugin is already done, yet it’s not allowed to be used/shipped until some arbitrary release party. I have 1.3 million views Zend Framework (PHP) tutorials and I regularly get asked to show how to setup free editor instead of proprietary one I currently use they cannot afford. Unfortunately, that is a non-starter as the lessons showing what Zend Framework is capable of in **current, yet already half-a-year-old** version is not possible in editor that has even older version. I am not going to teach outdated content just to promote NetBeans on the screen, even though that would be excellent motivation for me to show it off. Some replies here have idea about psychological comfort of frequent releases. As a language user, I do not notice much underlying platform releases. Again, this feeling may come from the conflict in my first point. More releases mean that NetBeans has a better chance to keep up with *ALL* languages by maximizing probability that do not have to wait long for next version of, say, EcmaScript. This increased probability gives false sense of keeping up or innovating. However, do language plugin users really care about the underlying *IDE framework* release version? Sure, there may come a time when NetBeans 14 might have some fancy editor feature so have to wait until “PHP plugin version 21” or “Java plugin version 7” catches up to IDE release, but that is a VERY tolerable wait that does not actively prohibit usage. Then the IDE framework can take however many years to have releases.
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
On 2018/08/07 08:46:06, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > Hi all,> > > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release> > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months.> > > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to our> > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features> > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases.> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle> > > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the year we> > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was our> > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in> > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in November,> > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal.> > > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current> > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple> > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and then> > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a thought,> > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the features> > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to> > follow the JDK release numbering more or less.> > > Anyway, thoughts welcome,> > > Gj> > Support for other languages should not be ignored. I am very happy excited about support for Python in NVm WK
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
An IDE release is not same as language support release. NetBeans (or any other) IDE, as far as I am concerned is “just an editor” and a framework for other language plugins. Then, say, PHP and even Java rides on top of that. Mixing these two concepts together creates too much conflict. Then, there is a sour feeling when hear how next version of language plugin is already done, yet it’s not allowed to use until some arbitrary release party. I have 1.3 million views Zend Framework (PHP) tutorials and I regularly get asked to show how to setup NetBeans instead of proprietary one I currently use they cannot afford. Unfortunately, that is a non-starter as the lessons showing what Zend Framework is capable of in *current, yet already half-a-year-old* version is not possible in editor that has even older version. I am not going to teach outdated content just to promote NetBeans on the screen, even though that would be excellent motivation for me to show it off. Some replies here have idea about psychological comfort of frequent releases. As a language user, I do not notice much underlying platform releases. Again, this feeling may come from the conflict in my first point. More releases mean that NetBeans has a better chance to keep up with *ALL* languages by maximizing probability that do not have to wait long for next version of, say, EcmaScript. However, do language plugin users really care about the underlying *IDE framework* release version? Sure, there may come a time when NetBeans 14 might have some fancy editor feature so have to wait until “PHP plugin version 21” or even “Java plugin version 7” catches up to IDE release, but that is a VERY tolerable wait that does not actively prohibit usage. Then the editor framework can take however many years to have releases. On 2018/08/07 08:46:06, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > Hi all, > > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. > > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to our > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle > > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the year we > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was our > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in November, > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal. > > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and then > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a thought, > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the features > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to > follow the JDK release numbering more or less. > > Anyway, thoughts welcome, > > Gj > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
An IDE release is not same as language support release. NetBeans (or any other) IDE, as far as I am concerned is “just an editor” and a framework for other language plugins. Then, say, PHP and even Java rides on top of that. Mixing these two concepts together creates too much conflict. Then, there is a sour feeling when hear how next version of language plugin is already done, yet it’s not allowed to be used/shipped until some arbitrary release party. I have 1.3 million views Zend Framework (PHP) tutorials and I regularly get asked to show how to setup free editor instead of proprietary one I currently use they cannot afford. Unfortunately, that is a non-starter as the lessons showing what Zend Framework is capable of in **current, yet already half-a-year-old** version is not possible in editor that has even older version. I am not going to teach outdated content just to promote NetBeans on the screen, even though that would be excellent motivation for me to show it off. Some replies here have idea about psychological comfort of frequent releases. As a language user, I do not notice much underlying platform releases. Again, this feeling may come from the conflict in my first point. More releases mean that NetBeans has a better chance to keep up with *ALL* languages by maximizing probability that do not have to wait long for next version of, say, EcmaScript. This increased probability gives false sense of keeping up or innovating. However, do language plugin users really care about the underlying *IDE framework* release version? Sure, there may come a time when NetBeans 14 might have some fancy editor feature so have to wait until “PHP plugin version 21” or “Java plugin version 7” catches up to IDE release, but that is a VERY tolerable wait that does not actively prohibit usage. Then the IDE framework can take however many years to have releases.
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
On Wednesday, August 8, 2018, William Beebe wrote: > Release Cycle - > A 90 day release cadence is probably too much for a volunteer > group, so perhaps every six months. So far, those who have been working on Apache NetBeans are converging around a quarterly release cycle. Gj > > Version Number - > I personally like using the date as the main release version discriminator. > So, for example, if NetBeans is released in October of this year, then it’s > version number might be 18.10. If this looks familiar it is; I’m stealing > that idea from Ubuntu and every other project that does the same thing. An > alternative might be to expose an internal release number. Microsoft is > using both a date-based release with a build number for Windows 10. > > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 8:02 AM Josh Juneau wrote: > > > I believe that people do like more frequent releases. Once per quarter, > > let's say, seems to be a good fit. I do not believe that NetBeans > release > > number should be bound to the supported Java release because Apache > > NetBeans 9.0 was just released with JDK 10 support...so that would be a > > cause for confusion. > > > > I think that the major release number should change once per year, say in > > August. If we were to have a quarterly release, then Apache NetBeans 9.1 > > would be next release that would occur near the end of this calendar > year, > > followed by 9.2 and 9.3 in the subsequent quarters. That would mean that > > Apache NetBeans 10 would be released next August. I personally think it > > may become too convoluted to try and rate major releases vs minor > releases > > in an effort to increment the release number. Of course, using this > logic > > it is possible to have Apache NetBeans 9.0.1, Apache NetBeans 9.1.1, etc, > > if a critical update needed to be released for some reason. > > > > Thanks for reading, I appreciate your time. > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:34 AM Oliver Rettig > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks Peter for clarification. > > > > > > Isnt it possible to have an apache update center, which includes only > > > apache-netbeans-ide > > > updates? Or is this incompatible with the apache release procedure? > > > > > > > Badly worded by me, module update issue is where the update center > will > > > be > > > > located > > > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:54 Oliver Rettig, > wrote: > > > > > > Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it > > > updates > > > > > > more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't > be > > > > > > released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to > > > move > > > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > > of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of > > > > > > > > > > approval > > > > > > > > > > > before code gets released. > > > > > > You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many > > > minor > > > > > > updates imbetween. > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates > > without > > > > > > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide > > auto > > > > > > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the > > module > > > > > > > > > > update > > > > > > > > > > > issue is resolved > > > > > > > > > > Please point me to that module update issue? > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the > question > > > is > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > JDK > > > > > > > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should > be > > an > > > > > > > > > > aim of > > > > > > > > > > > > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely > > not a > > > > > > > > > > given. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in > > > Apache > > > > > > > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis < > > cjgun...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java > > > > > > > > > > implemented. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For > > > > > > > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB > > > 9.1, > > > > > > > > > > 9.2, > > > > > > > > > -- > > Josh Juneau > > juneau...@gmail.com > > http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com > > https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 > > >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Release Cycle - A reasonable release cadence is a Good Thing. To keep the in-between release period short and sweet, it would be helpful to release only a new new features to actually meet the release date. Same with bug fixes. In fact, bug fixes should always be released even if there are no new features. A 90 day release cadence is probably too much for a volunteer group, so perhaps every six months. Version Number - I personally like using the date as the main release version discriminator. So, for example, if NetBeans is released in October of this year, then it’s version number might be 18.10. If this looks familiar it is; I’m stealing that idea from Ubuntu and every other project that does the same thing. An alternative might be to expose an internal release number. Microsoft is using both a date-based release with a build number for Windows 10. On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 8:02 AM Josh Juneau wrote: > I believe that people do like more frequent releases. Once per quarter, > let's say, seems to be a good fit. I do not believe that NetBeans release > number should be bound to the supported Java release because Apache > NetBeans 9.0 was just released with JDK 10 support...so that would be a > cause for confusion. > > I think that the major release number should change once per year, say in > August. If we were to have a quarterly release, then Apache NetBeans 9.1 > would be next release that would occur near the end of this calendar year, > followed by 9.2 and 9.3 in the subsequent quarters. That would mean that > Apache NetBeans 10 would be released next August. I personally think it > may become too convoluted to try and rate major releases vs minor releases > in an effort to increment the release number. Of course, using this logic > it is possible to have Apache NetBeans 9.0.1, Apache NetBeans 9.1.1, etc, > if a critical update needed to be released for some reason. > > Thanks for reading, I appreciate your time. > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:34 AM Oliver Rettig > wrote: > > > Thanks Peter for clarification. > > > > Isnt it possible to have an apache update center, which includes only > > apache-netbeans-ide > > updates? Or is this incompatible with the apache release procedure? > > > > > Badly worded by me, module update issue is where the update center will > > be > > > located > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:54 Oliver Rettig, wrote: > > > > > Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it > > updates > > > > > more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't be > > > > > released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to > > move > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of > > > > > > > > approval > > > > > > > > > before code gets released. > > > > > You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many > > minor > > > > > updates imbetween. > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates > without > > > > > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide > auto > > > > > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the > module > > > > > > > > update > > > > > > > > > issue is resolved > > > > > > > > Please point me to that module update issue? > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question > > is > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > JDK > > > > > > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be > an > > > > > > > > aim of > > > > > > > > > > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely > not a > > > > > > > > given. > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > > > > > > > > > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in > > Apache > > > > > > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis < > cjgun...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java > > > > > > > > implemented. > > > > > > > > > > >> For > > > > > > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB > > 9.1, > > > > > > > > 9.2, > > > > > > -- > Josh Juneau > juneau...@gmail.com > http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com > https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
I believe that people do like more frequent releases. Once per quarter, let's say, seems to be a good fit. I do not believe that NetBeans release number should be bound to the supported Java release because Apache NetBeans 9.0 was just released with JDK 10 support...so that would be a cause for confusion. I think that the major release number should change once per year, say in August. If we were to have a quarterly release, then Apache NetBeans 9.1 would be next release that would occur near the end of this calendar year, followed by 9.2 and 9.3 in the subsequent quarters. That would mean that Apache NetBeans 10 would be released next August. I personally think it may become too convoluted to try and rate major releases vs minor releases in an effort to increment the release number. Of course, using this logic it is possible to have Apache NetBeans 9.0.1, Apache NetBeans 9.1.1, etc, if a critical update needed to be released for some reason. Thanks for reading, I appreciate your time. On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:34 AM Oliver Rettig wrote: > Thanks Peter for clarification. > > Isnt it possible to have an apache update center, which includes only > apache-netbeans-ide > updates? Or is this incompatible with the apache release procedure? > > > Badly worded by me, module update issue is where the update center will > be > > located > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:54 Oliver Rettig, wrote: > > > > Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it > updates > > > > more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't be > > > > released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to > move > > > > > > out > > > > > > > of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of > > > > > > approval > > > > > > > before code gets released. > > > > You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many > minor > > > > updates imbetween. > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates without > > > > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide auto > > > > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the module > > > > > > update > > > > > > > issue is resolved > > > > > > Please point me to that module update issue? > > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question > is > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent that > > > > > the > > > > > JDK > > > > > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be an > > > > > > aim of > > > > > > > > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely not a > > > > > > given. > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > > > > > > > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in > Apache > > > > > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java > > > > > > implemented. > > > > > > > > >> For > > > > > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB > 9.1, > > > > > > 9.2, > > > -- Josh Juneau juneau...@gmail.com http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Hey everyone, I’ve used Netbeans for PHP development since 2002. As you might assume, the JDK release cycle is mostly irrelevant to me as a user, as it is not a dependency for any of my work. That said, I do think it is rather convenient to download and install the entire package as it is intended to be used. It sends a clear message that mixing/matching/discovering other dependencies is not necessary for me to update. Thanks, -JJJ On 2018/08/07 08:46:06, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > Hi all,> > > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release> > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months.> > > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to our> > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features> > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases.> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle> > > > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the year we> > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was our> > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in> > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in November,> > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal.> > > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current> > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple> > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and then> > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a thought,> > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the features> > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to> > follow the JDK release numbering more or less.> > > Anyway, thoughts welcome,> > > Gj> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Thanks Peter for clarification. Isnt it possible to have an apache update center, which includes only apache-netbeans-ide updates? Or is this incompatible with the apache release procedure? > Badly worded by me, module update issue is where the update center will be > located > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:54 Oliver Rettig, wrote: > > > Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it updates > > > more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't be > > > released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to move > > > > out > > > > > of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of > > > > approval > > > > > before code gets released. > > > You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many minor > > > updates imbetween. > > > > +1 > > > > > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates without > > > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide auto > > > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the module > > > > update > > > > > issue is resolved > > > > Please point me to that module update issue? > > > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, > > > > > > wrote: > > > > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question is > > > > also > > > > > > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent that > > > > the > > > > JDK > > > > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be an > > > > aim of > > > > > > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely not a > > > > given. > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > > > > > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache > > > > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis > > > > wrote: > > > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java > > > > implemented. > > > > > > >> For > > > > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, > > > > 9.2, > >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Badly worded by me, module update issue is where the update center will be located On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:54 Oliver Rettig, wrote: > > Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it updates > > more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't be > > released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to move > out > > of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of > approval > > before code gets released. > > You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many minor > > updates imbetween. > +1 > > > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates without > > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide auto > > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the module > update > > issue is resolved > Please point me to that module update issue? > > > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, > > > > wrote: > > > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question is > also > > > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent that the > > > JDK > > > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be an > aim of > > > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely not a > given. > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > > > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache > > > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis > wrote: > > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java > implemented. > > > >> For > > > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, > 9.2, > > > >> etc. > > > >> (schedule is irrelevant to me -- every 3 months is fine) but when > the > > > >> full > > > >> function of JDK 11 is included then NB 11 should be released. I > assume > > > >> we're going to skip JDK 10 at this point. Releases like 2018.3 > tell me > > > >> nothing about what the product includes. But if Java moves to that > > > > > > naming > > > > > > >> scheme then NB should move to that scheme to indicate what is > > > > > > implemented. > > > > > > >> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > >> > > > >> geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: > > > >> > Hi all, > > > >> > > > > >> > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release > > > >> > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. > > > >> > > > > >> > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity > to > > > > > > our > > > > > > >> > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize > features > > > >> > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. > > > >> > > > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/ > > > >> > Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle > > > >> > > > > >> > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the > > > > > > year > > > > > > >> we > > > >>
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
> Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it updates > more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't be > released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to move out > of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of approval > before code gets released. > You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many minor > updates imbetween. +1 > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates without > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide auto > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the module update > issue is resolved Please point me to that module update issue? > On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, > > wrote: > > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question is also > > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent that the > > JDK > > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be an aim of > > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely not a given. > > > > Gj > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > > > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache > > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis wrote: > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java implemented. > > >> For > > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, 9.2, > > >> etc. > > >> (schedule is irrelevant to me -- every 3 months is fine) but when the > > >> full > > >> function of JDK 11 is included then NB 11 should be released. I assume > > >> we're going to skip JDK 10 at this point. Releases like 2018.3 tell me > > >> nothing about what the product includes. But if Java moves to that > > > > naming > > > > >> scheme then NB should move to that scheme to indicate what is > > > > implemented. > > > > >> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < > > >> > > >> geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: > > >> > Hi all, > > >> > > > >> > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release > > >> > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. > > >> > > > >> > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to > > > > our > > > > >> > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features > > >> > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. > > >> > > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/ > > >> > Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle > > >> > > > >> > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the > > > > year > > > > >> we > > >>
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 7:40 AM, Peter Steele wrote: > This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates without > downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide auto > update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the module update > issue is resolved > > It's a balance. There's a balance between speed and stability. It's a balance between convenience and control. I tend to not tweak and customize every little thing, and simply accept and work with the defaults. So, if those go about changing on me, it's quite disruptive. I tend to be conservative in my tools and favor stability and consistency over shiny features. Netbeans already supports in flight updates, but I like that it has numbered releases that are distinct from each other. It makes it easier to migrate at my pace, not when the update button lights up or someone decides to push something down. To me, the single great feature of Netbeans is that it's one stop shopping. You download it, and you get "everything" without having to hunt and peck and grab random modules from random websites and track a zillion different paths of compatibility. That's the stability that a numbered release offers, vs a ball of mud of random, incremental updates, especially if there are inter dependencies where updating one module causes a cascade effect.
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Phycologically people feel they have a more modern system if it updates more frequently. There should be no reason why minor items can't be released quickly in a more agile way. I suspect though we need to move out of incubator status for that because there are a lot of rounds of approval before code gets released. You could have large core releases once or twice a year and many minor updates imbetween. This is a personal thing but I would like to get the updates without downloading a new version of the ide every time. Letting the ide auto update would be nice. I guess that could only happen when the module update issue is resolved On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:24 Geertjan Wielenga, wrote: > Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question is also > whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent that the JDK > releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be an aim of > the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely not a given. > > Gj > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache > > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > > > Gj > > > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis wrote: > > > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java implemented. > >> For > >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, 9.2, > >> etc. > >> (schedule is irrelevant to me -- every 3 months is fine) but when the > >> full > >> function of JDK 11 is included then NB 11 should be released. I assume > >> we're going to skip JDK 10 at this point. Releases like 2018.3 tell me > >> nothing about what the product includes. But if Java moves to that > naming > >> scheme then NB should move to that scheme to indicate what is > implemented. > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < > >> geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release > >> > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. > >> > > >> > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to > our > >> > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features > >> > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. > >> > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/ > >> > Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle > >> > > >> > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the > year > >> we > >> > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was > our > >> > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in > >> > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in > November, > >> > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal. > >> > > >> > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current > >> > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A > simple > >> > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and > >> then > >> > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a > >> thought, > >> > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the > >> features > >> > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try > to > >> > follow the JDK release numbering more or less. > >> > > >> > Anyway, thoughts welcome, > >> > > >> > Gj > >> > > >> > > > > >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Just saying that with early releases of JDK12 now shipping I don't see the point of a NB10. The versions of NB9 I'm using already have JDK11 features being included. Further, NB is Java. While it may provide functions to other languages, so far it IS Java. So Java implementation level still makes a lot of sense to me. Just my $.02. On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 7:22 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache NetBeans > 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > Gj >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Also, Apache NetBeans is more than Java-focused, and the question is also whether such prominence for Java should be given to the extent that the JDK releases should be followed at all, i.e., whether this should be an aim of the project. It's certainly open to discussion but definitely not a given. Gj On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga < geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote: > Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache > NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. > > Gj > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis wrote: > >> To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java implemented. >> For >> example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, 9.2, >> etc. >> (schedule is irrelevant to me -- every 3 months is fine) but when the >> full >> function of JDK 11 is included then NB 11 should be released. I assume >> we're going to skip JDK 10 at this point. Releases like 2018.3 tell me >> nothing about what the product includes. But if Java moves to that naming >> scheme then NB should move to that scheme to indicate what is implemented. >> >> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < >> geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release >> > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. >> > >> > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to our >> > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features >> > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. >> > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/ >> > Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle >> > >> > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the year >> we >> > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was our >> > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in >> > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in November, >> > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal. >> > >> > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current >> > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple >> > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and >> then >> > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a >> thought, >> > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the >> features >> > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to >> > follow the JDK release numbering more or less. >> > >> > Anyway, thoughts welcome, >> > >> > Gj >> > >> > >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
Just as a quick FYI: Both JDK 9 and JDK 10 are supported in Apache NetBeans 9, i.e., no, we've not skipped JDK 10. Gj On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chuck Davis wrote: > To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java implemented. For > example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, 9.2, etc. > (schedule is irrelevant to me -- every 3 months is fine) but when the full > function of JDK 11 is included then NB 11 should be released. I assume > we're going to skip JDK 10 at this point. Releases like 2018.3 tell me > nothing about what the product includes. But if Java moves to that naming > scheme then NB should move to that scheme to indicate what is implemented. > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release > > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. > > > > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to our > > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features > > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/ > > Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle > > > > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the year > we > > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was our > > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in > > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in November, > > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal. > > > > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current > > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple > > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and > then > > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a > thought, > > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the > features > > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to > > follow the JDK release numbering more or less. > > > > Anyway, thoughts welcome, > > > > Gj > > >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
To me it makes sense to have NB reflect the level of Java implemented. For example, features of JDK 11 can be added incrementally to NB 9.1, 9.2, etc. (schedule is irrelevant to me -- every 3 months is fine) but when the full function of JDK 11 is included then NB 11 should be released. I assume we're going to skip JDK 10 at this point. Releases like 2018.3 tell me nothing about what the product includes. But if Java moves to that naming scheme then NB should move to that scheme to indicate what is implemented. On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Geertjan Wielenga < geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: > Hi all, > > We've discussed this informally, i.e., the topic of the release > cycle/cadence, a few times over the past months. > > Let's nail it down as far as possible so that we can give clarity to our > users about our intentions and also to enable us to organize features > coming in through donations and otherwise into releases. > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/ > Apache+NetBeans+Release+Cycle > > Right now, we have a clear suggestion around in which month of the year we > will release. I.e., the Apache NetBeans (incubating) 9.0 release was our > August release (and we even managed to release it a few days early, in > July, hurray!). So, this year, we will have another release in November, > that's our next big target, if we agree with the above proposal. > > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and then > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a thought, > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the features > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to > follow the JDK release numbering more or less. > > Anyway, thoughts welcome, > > Gj >
Re: Apache NetBeans Release Cycle
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 at 09:46, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > However, a separate discussion is about release numbers. Our current > release is 9.0. How do we decide to number the other releases? A simple > proposal might be to have our major release in August of each year and then > all then make all the other releases minor. However, that's just a thought, > another one could be that we should simply consider how large the features > are that we have added and base major/minor on that. Or we could try to > follow the JDK release numbering more or less. I suggested the JDK version sync early on, and no-one else seemed keen on that! :-) Taking a step back, what do version numbers mean for us? If they have a semantic reason (pun intended), then arbitrarily having a major version increase based on date seems strange. Unless we see August as the time of year for decluttering deprecations? So doing it for major features might make sense, but how to define what's major, and going with incremental 3-monthly releases when features ship when ready, at which point do you decide the next version number? What if the "major" feature slips? We could have a purely incremental version number, which seems simple, and we can start catching up with Firefox / Chrome. We could go with the Ubuntu-esque (and JDK rejected) date versioning? Or we could take the Linus' approach to kernel numbering, and update the major version on a whim because the minor seems high! :-) Personally, I'd be inclined to purely incremental. 2c Best wishes, Neil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
