Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com wrote: name=Strasbourg name:de=Straßburg name:gsw=Schdroosburi Is this example correct (especially name:gsw=Schdroosburi)? Yes and no. gsw is an iso code grouping all alemannic german dialects around the three countries Germany, Switzerland and France borders. But they are so many differences between them that we prefere to use loc_name instead of this ISO code. In your example, loc_name would be Stroosburi. Pieren ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
I have been convinced to use loc_name for alternate names the local people use which does not have the same etymology (history and origin of the word) as the name. The city of Luxembourg has a nice example of loc_name: name=Luxembourg name:lb=Lëtzebuerg name:fr=Luxembourg name:de=Luxemburg loc_name=d'Stad (or alternatively loc_name:lb) That's coherent with the definition of loc_name in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name gsw is an iso code grouping all alemannic german dialects around the three countries Germany, Switzerland and France borders. But they are so many differences between them I see, Ok. But this suggests to use a distinct language tag, not loc_name, as Marc suggested: You can probably use IETF language tags with regions, so for Züridütsch you would have: gsw-x-zueri (gsw=Swiss German, x-zueri=private subtag Züri). I think this sounds useful (but I would use the canton abbreviation as private subtag): So for the city of Zürich its: name=Zürich name:de:Zürich name:en:Zurich name:gsw-x-zh:Züri (gsw=alemannic german dialect group, x-zueri=private subtag canton of Zürich) alt_name=Limmatstadt ... In your example, loc_name would be Stroosburi. Stroosburi (or Schdroosburi as indicated by http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strassburg ) seems to me to be the local pronounciation of the respective official name. So I would suggest: name=Strasbourg name:de=Straßburg name:gsw-x-l=Schdroosburi (gsw=alemannic german dialect group, x-zueri=private subtag Luxembourgish) How about this? -S. 2010/11/5 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com wrote: name=Strasbourg name:de=Straßburg name:gsw=Schdroosburi Is this example correct (especially name:gsw=Schdroosburi)? Yes and no. gsw is an iso code grouping all alemannic german dialects around the three countries Germany, Switzerland and France borders. But they are so many differences between them that we prefere to use loc_name instead of this ISO code. In your example, loc_name would be Stroosburi. Pieren ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
I've found gsw-CH as an alternative to the rather unelegant private subtag -x-... So it would become name:gsw-CH:Züri instead of name:gsw-x-zh:Züri. Look for gsw-CH in: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Categories_for_discussion/User/Archive_5#Category:User_als -S. 2010/11/6 Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com: I have been convinced to use loc_name for alternate names the local people use which does not have the same etymology (history and origin of the word) as the name. The city of Luxembourg has a nice example of loc_name: name=Luxembourg name:lb=Lëtzebuerg name:fr=Luxembourg name:de=Luxemburg loc_name=d'Stad (or alternatively loc_name:lb) That's coherent with the definition of loc_name in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name gsw is an iso code grouping all alemannic german dialects around the three countries Germany, Switzerland and France borders. But they are so many differences between them I see, Ok. But this suggests to use a distinct language tag, not loc_name, as Marc suggested: You can probably use IETF language tags with regions, so for Züridütsch you would have: gsw-x-zueri (gsw=Swiss German, x-zueri=private subtag Züri). I think this sounds useful (but I would use the canton abbreviation as private subtag): So for the city of Zürich its: name=Zürich name:de:Zürich name:en:Zurich name:gsw-x-zh:Züri (gsw=alemannic german dialect group, x-zueri=private subtag canton of Zürich) alt_name=Limmatstadt ... In your example, loc_name would be Stroosburi. Stroosburi (or Schdroosburi as indicated by http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strassburg ) seems to me to be the local pronounciation of the respective official name. So I would suggest: name=Strasbourg name:de=Straßburg name:gsw-x-l=Schdroosburi (gsw=alemannic german dialect group, x-zueri=private subtag Luxembourgish) How about this? -S. 2010/11/5 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com wrote: name=Strasbourg name:de=Straßburg name:gsw=Schdroosburi Is this example correct (especially name:gsw=Schdroosburi)? Yes and no. gsw is an iso code grouping all alemannic german dialects around the three countries Germany, Switzerland and France borders. But they are so many differences between them that we prefere to use loc_name instead of this ISO code. In your example, loc_name would be Stroosburi. Pieren ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
(re-added CC to list) Thanks for the interesting discussion. I know it's a astonishingly borderless topic (see [1]). What I still have in mind is to be able to produce a map with local names (i.e. for preserving cultural heritage). So I think it's time to summarize: * As far as I understand, I have to take loc_name (like loc_name:gsw=Züri) besides of course name=Zürich. As I said, I disagree with this interpretation. In my opinion the correct tagging for Zürich would be: name=Zürich name:gsw=Züri An example for loc_name would be Luxembourg City, whose Luxembourgish name is Lëtzebuerg, but which is called d'Stad (the city) by its inhabitants, both names being in Luxembourgish, of course. So the tagging would be: name=??? (don't know, because there are three official languages) name:lb=Lëtzebuerg name:fr=Luxembourg name:de=Luxemburg loc_name=d'Stad (or alternatively loc_name:lb) * I think the wiki page Key:name [2] should be enhanced with more definitions and examples. * And I think [3] should at least mention loc_name somewhere in the text. Yours, S. [1] For those who can read german: Here is a large source of information about geonames: http://www.gis.hsr.ch/wiki/Lokalnamen.ch [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names -- GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos. Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 13:21:56 +0100, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote: (re-added CC to list) Thanks for the interesting discussion. I know it's a astonishingly borderless topic (see [1]). What I still have in mind is to be able to produce a map with local names (i.e. for preserving cultural heritage). So I think it's time to summarize: * As far as I understand, I have to take loc_name (like loc_name:gsw=Züri) besides of course name=Zürich. As I said, I disagree with this interpretation. In my opinion the correct tagging for Zürich would be: name=Zürich name:gsw=Züri Compare with the Dutch carnaval map. During carnaval every self-respecting town that does carnaval has a different name. This is tagged as name:carnaval. It really doesn't matter what name you come up with, as long as it's unique and fairly descriptive and preferably obeying international guidelines on this point. Regards, Maarten ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 3 November 2010 13:43, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote: : use name:...,old_name:... together with the ISO 639-1/2 code (which, admittedly, don't exist for most dialects). they don't exist because they are not languages IMHO. I don't think the standard is supposed to list only languages, because it already includes codes for Swiss German/Alemannic (gsw), Kölsch (ksh) and Bavarian (bar). This probably works for Swiss German but in case of e.g. East Franconian (which doesn't have a language tag) you have to be careful to distinguish between Standard German as spoken in, say, Bayreuth, and East Franconian as spoken in Bayreuth. Thus you cannot simply use de-... for the latter, as it would mean the former. A lot of the characteristics of dialects (at least in German) derives from pronounciation. Usually there is no common way to write it (as you generally write in German (Hochdeutsch)). Do you suggest to transscribe pronounciation? How you would actually transscribe the dialects/language variants is another matter. I used this example to show that there are cases where it is difficult to come up with a correct language tag. If de means Standard German, then de-CH means the variant of Standard German that is use in Switzerland, and thus cannot be used to refer Swiss German. Fortunately, there is a code for Swiss German to work around this problem. But there is none for East Franconian. Now that I think of it, maybe a different workaround would be to use gmw-x-franconia or the like to refer to the West Germanic language used in Franconia. But it's still ugly... One possibility is to just use the full name of the dialect (in English or otherwise) where no good iso code is available, so name:gmw:East Franconian= or something similar. Maybe the gmw: part is not needed because the fallback language is something that the clients can figure out. I agree dialects should generally be treated like separate languages. Cheers ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 4 November 2010 16:43, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: One possibility is to just use the full name of the dialect (in English or otherwise) where no good iso code is available, so name:gmw:East Franconian= or something similar. Maybe the gmw: part is not needed because the fallback language is something that the clients can figure out. I agree dialects should generally be treated like separate languages. Or we could do like our Japanese friends who do things like this name:ja_rm = japanese translitteration name:ja = japanese Emily Laffray ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 16/06/10 11:31, Peter Körner wrote: In a attempt to reactivate the Multilingual Maps Project, I started a testcase with language overlays instead of complete language maps. This should save a lot of RAM (loading all 270+ map styles took ~16GB of Memory only for renderd). It's still rendering the low-zoom tiles so it is very slow. I also activated only three language overlays to test the setup but the other stlye-files are already in place and will be activated one after another. So feel free to play around and give comments: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ Peter This is a great idea. The Irish OpenStreetMap community have done something similar for http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/ . Ireland has 2 offical languages, Irish and English. We did something similar with splitting it into 2 separate layers. I just copied the Mapnik style file and manually deleted name stuff from one and delete non-name stuff from the other. You have to keep the ref shield symbolizers in the name mapnik file, otherwise they'll collide. Rory 0x5373FB61.asc Description: application/pgp-keys ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 16/06/10 11:31, Peter Körner wrote: In a attempt to reactivate the Multilingual Maps Project, I started a testcase with language overlays instead of complete language maps. This should save a lot of RAM (loading all 270+ map styles took ~16GB of Memory only for renderd). It's still rendering the low-zoom tiles so it is very slow. I also activated only three language overlays to test the setup but the other stlye-files are already in place and will be activated one after another. So feel free to play around and give comments: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ Peter This is a great idea. The Irish OpenStreetMap community have done something similar for http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/ . Ireland has 2 offical languages, Irish and English. We did something similar with splitting it into 2 separate layers. I just copied the Mapnik style file and manually deleted name stuff from one and delete non-name stuff from the other. You have to keep the ref shield symbolizers in the name mapnik file, otherwise they'll collide. Rory 0x5373FB61.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Ok; I'm getting it slowly... But still have definition problems. name=Strasbourg name:de=Straßburg name:gsw=Schdroosburi Is this example correct (especially name:gsw=Schdroosburi)? What about the loc_name: Is there there no loc_name or is it loc_name=Schdroosburi too? My problem is still loc_name's definition. I would define it as follows: loc_name is the name of a feature known as by the local population which does not have the same etymology (history and origin of the word). loc_name is in contrast to the official name (name tag) and in contrast to the local pronounciation of the respective official name (which is covered by namespaced name tags like e.g. name:gsw). Here is another example: There are two small towns, Nottwil and Buchrain (about 5000 inhabitants). They are called in Swiss German Nottu and Bueri (see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchrain_LU ). Bueri seems to be very different to Buchrain but shares the etymology. Therefore: name=Buchrain name:de:Buchrain name:gsw:Bueri (no loc_name needed) = Agreed? -S. 2010/11/4 Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net: (re-added CC to list) Thanks for the interesting discussion. I know it's a astonishingly borderless topic (see [1]). What I still have in mind is to be able to produce a map with local names (i.e. for preserving cultural heritage). So I think it's time to summarize: * As far as I understand, I have to take loc_name (like loc_name:gsw=Züri) besides of course name=Zürich. As I said, I disagree with this interpretation. In my opinion the correct tagging for Zürich would be: name=Zürich name:gsw=Züri An example for loc_name would be Luxembourg City, whose Luxembourgish name is Lëtzebuerg, but which is called d'Stad (the city) by its inhabitants, both names being in Luxembourgish, of course. So the tagging would be: name=??? (don't know, because there are three official languages) name:lb=Lëtzebuerg name:fr=Luxembourg name:de=Luxemburg loc_name=d'Stad (or alternatively loc_name:lb) * I think the wiki page Key:name [2] should be enhanced with more definitions and examples. * And I think [3] should at least mention loc_name somewhere in the text. Yours, S. [1] For those who can read german: Here is a large source of information about geonames: http://www.gis.hsr.ch/wiki/Lokalnamen.ch [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names -- GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos. Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
2010/11/3 Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com: 2. What about names in the local dialect (very important to me)? I'm thinkin about 'Barça' for Barcelona, Spain, or 'Züri' which is Swiss German for Zurich, Switzerland). How to tag those? = Something like 'ch' plus a subdomain? You should differentiate between a dialect and a real language. While für languages there is name:XX (language code), for dialects you can use loc_name and alike. Cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
2010/11/3 Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com: 2. What about names in the local dialect (very important to me)? I'm thinkin about 'Barça' for Barcelona, Spain, or 'Züri' which is Swiss German for Zurich, Switzerland). How to tag those? = Something like 'ch' plus a subdomain? You should differentiate between a dialect and a real language. While für languages there is name:XX (language code), for dialects you can use loc_name and alike. No, this is _not_ the purpose of loc_name. In fact, loc_name/name/old_name/official_name... and language tags are completely orthogonal. Dialects should be treated exactly like languages (the distinction is artifical anyway from a linguistic point of view): use name:...,old_name:... together with the ISO 639-1/2 code (which, admittedly, don't exist for most dialects). You can probably use IETF language tags with regions, so for Züridütsch you would have: gsw-x-zueri (gsw=Swiss German, x-zueri=private subtag Züri) This probably works for Swiss German but in case of e.g. East Franconian (which doesn't have a language tag) you have to be careful to distinguish between Standard German as spoken in, say, Bayreuth, and East Franconian as spoken in Bayreuth. Thus you cannot simply use de-... for the latter, as it would mean the former. See these pages for details: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php http://www.langtag.net/ -- GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos. Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
2010/11/3 Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net: 2010/11/3 Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com: You should differentiate between a dialect and a real language. While für languages there is name:XX (language code), for dialects you can use loc_name and alike. No, this is _not_ the purpose of loc_name. In fact, loc_name/name/old_name/official_name... and language tags are completely orthogonal. this might be true (or not). What is the purpose then? IMHO the purpose is to offer alternative fields for name searches. Dialects should be treated exactly like languages I'm not sure (the distinction is artifical anyway from a linguistic point of view) this is not clear, and by doing a superficial internet research it seems to me that you are wrong, even though there are a lot of edge cases. : use name:...,old_name:... together with the ISO 639-1/2 code (which, admittedly, don't exist for most dialects). they don't exist because they are not languages IMHO. This probably works for Swiss German but in case of e.g. East Franconian (which doesn't have a language tag) you have to be careful to distinguish between Standard German as spoken in, say, Bayreuth, and East Franconian as spoken in Bayreuth. Thus you cannot simply use de-... for the latter, as it would mean the former. A lot of the characteristics of dialects (at least in German) derives from pronounciation. Usually there is no common way to write it (as you generally write in German (Hochdeutsch)). Do you suggest to transscribe pronounciation? Your example of East Franconian is about a dialect IMHO, not about a language. See these pages for details: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names this is for languages, not for dialects ;-) btw.: gsw (Swiss German) of course has it's own code. http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php dito Cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
You should differentiate between a dialect and a real language. While für languages there is name:XX (language code), for dialects you can use loc_name and alike. No, this is _not_ the purpose of loc_name. In fact, loc_name/name/old_name/official_name... and language tags are completely orthogonal. this might be true (or not). What is the purpose then? IMHO the purpose is to offer alternative fields for name searches. The Examples section of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name describes their usage. loc_name would be the name a feature is known as by the local population, in contrast to the official and nation wide names. Unfortunately, the examples there are a bit contrived, but you get the general idea. Dialects should be treated exactly like languages I'm not sure (the distinction is artifical anyway from a linguistic point of view) this is not clear, and by doing a superficial internet research it seems to me that you are wrong, even though there are a lot of edge cases. If I were to present you with two samples of speech (be it written or spoken) of which you don't know anything about (official status, where they are spoken, ...), it would be impossible to determine whether they are dialects or languages. Of course, in practice, there is indeed a distinction, but it depends on various external factors (Is the language recognized officially? Is it used only in informal contexts? How do the speakers themselves see their language? How is it related to other languages?), and thus it is not a property of the language itself. This is why I called it an artificial distinction. However, in our context, this distinction still doesn't matter. We have various places each of which can have an official name, an international name, a former name, etc. Each of these names can be in one or more languages/dialects. If we were to restrict this to officially recognized languages only, we would still need another tagging scheme for the dialects. I don't see what we'd gain from doing so. Except of course if you're suggesting that we shouldn't record dialectal names at all? I (and supposedly Stefan too) would object to that, because there are useful applications for it. For example, I'd like to record field names (Flurnamen), which usually exist only in dialectal form, and for which I would see it as incorrect to use Standard German translations. : use name:...,old_name:... together with the ISO 639-1/2 code (which, admittedly, don't exist for most dialects). they don't exist because they are not languages IMHO. I don't think the standard is supposed to list only languages, because it already includes codes for Swiss German/Alemannic (gsw), Kölsch (ksh) and Bavarian (bar). This probably works for Swiss German but in case of e.g. East Franconian (which doesn't have a language tag) you have to be careful to distinguish between Standard German as spoken in, say, Bayreuth, and East Franconian as spoken in Bayreuth. Thus you cannot simply use de-... for the latter, as it would mean the former. A lot of the characteristics of dialects (at least in German) derives from pronounciation. Usually there is no common way to write it (as you generally write in German (Hochdeutsch)). Do you suggest to transscribe pronounciation? How you would actually transscribe the dialects/language variants is another matter. I used this example to show that there are cases where it is difficult to come up with a correct language tag. If de means Standard German, then de-CH means the variant of Standard German that is use in Switzerland, and thus cannot be used to refer Swiss German. Fortunately, there is a code for Swiss German to work around this problem. But there is none for East Franconian. Now that I think of it, maybe a different workaround would be to use gmw-x-franconia or the like to refer to the West Germanic language used in Franconia. But it's still ugly... Your example of East Franconian is about a dialect IMHO, not about a language. Yes, but then there is also Bavarian, which has the same official recognition (i.e. none), and roughly the same social status, but there _is_ a code for it. Regards, Marc -- GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos. Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
2010/11/3 Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net: No, this is _not_ the purpose of loc_name. In fact, loc_name/name/old_name/official_name... and language tags are completely orthogonal. The Examples section of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name describes their usage. loc_name would be the name a feature is known as by the local population, in contrast to the official and nation wide names. Unfortunately, the examples there are a bit contrived, but you get the general idea. I was assuming that the local population would speak the local dialect (language). Of course this would not tell you which language/dialect this is (without an external source or a polygon or sth. similar which contains these), but it could be the right place to put the information anyway. If I were to present you with two samples of speech (be it written or spoken) of which you don't know anything about (official status, where they are spoken, ...), it would be impossible to determine whether they are dialects or languages. fortunately it is not the case that OSM presents you information without at least (geo)-context. Of course, in practice, there is indeed a distinction, but it depends on various external factors (Is the language recognized officially? Is it used only in informal contexts? How do the speakers themselves see their language? How is it related to other languages?), and thus it is not a property of the language itself. There is also the distinction: does someone who speaks language A understand A' or doesn't he. If he does A' could be defined as dialect. I agree that this distinction is sometimes difficult, and probably most of the German dialects won't be understood completely but only in parts by someone who only speaks the official language. I think I agree that we might treat dialects just like any other language. However, in our context, this distinction still doesn't matter. We have various places each of which can have an official name, an international name, a former name, etc. Each of these names can be in one or more languages/dialects. If we were to restrict this to officially recognized languages only, we would still need another tagging scheme for the dialects. I don't see what we'd gain from doing so. Probably the coding could be done in a way that it became clear that e.g. bavarian is part of the german language family. Except of course if you're suggesting that we shouldn't record dialectal names at all? I (and supposedly Stefan too) would object to that, because there are useful applications for it. For example, I'd like to record field names (Flurnamen), which usually exist only in dialectal form, and for which I would see it as incorrect to use Standard German translations. not sure if they only exist in dialectical form (IMHO translations would be feasible but won't insist on this), but me too I am interested in collecting this cultural heritage in OSM. Still there is a problem with how to write them, as dialects are usually (in Germany) not written. AFAIK there is no official way to write them. The same word would be written differently by different mappers. Your example of East Franconian is about a dialect IMHO, not about a language. Yes, but then there is also Bavarian, which has the same official recognition (i.e. none), and roughly the same social status, but there _is_ a code for it. yes, as the world knows those bavarians try to be different wherever they can. Don't know how they managed to put their dialect in, but I guess keeping franconian out was part of their intervention ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Hi Nice idea. I don't see any labels except those already rendered by Mapnik. I looked at osm-labes-de and -ch. 1. Can you give my an example Permalink? 2. Then I encountered a JavaScript problem (some CPU consuming endless loop) when trying to click and launch a Permalink. 3. And the Peramlikn look like it has an endless layers parameter, like this: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/?zoom=9lat=48.67146lon=9.1214layers=BFTTF Yours, S. 2010/6/16 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: In a attempt to reactivate the Multilingual Maps Project, I started a testcase with language overlays instead of complete language maps. This should save a lot of RAM (loading all 270+ map styles took ~16GB of Memory only for renderd). It's still rendering the low-zoom tiles so it is very slow. I also activated only three language overlays to test the setup but the other stlye-files are already in place and will be activated one after another. So feel free to play around and give comments: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote: Now I recall where I see the problem with a fallback rule like de: name:de, name:en, name:fr, name If you look at Germany in the OSM db most of the placenames just have the german name in the name-tag but don't reproduce the redundant information in name:de. If you would take this example node: place=city name=München name:en=Munich the above rule would lead to the english name being shown on the german name overlay. So the fallback needs to be location aware and should probably not trigger in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Yeah, that's actually a bigger problem with the way we're tagging. I get a slightly bizarre experience using nominatim - if I search for United Kingdom the first result is Royaume Uni, if I search for Scotland it results in Schottland. In both cases this is because nominatim is picking up my browser language preferences - there's no name:en on either so it falls back to name:de, name:fr or name:es - and only if all those tags are missing from an object will it show me the english name for things in the UK/USA/Canada. Which is understandable, but seems bizarre to most people. Cheers, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 02.11.2010 11:52, schrieb Stefan Keller: Hi Nice idea. I don't see any labels except those already rendered by Mapnik. I looked at osm-labes-de and -ch. That's just because our tile server is very busy rendering those overlays. They are very young and most files below z0-6 have not been rendered yet. 1. Can you give my an example Permalink? 2. Then I encountered a JavaScript problem (some CPU consuming endless loop) when trying to click and launch a Permalink. 3. And the Peramlikn look like it has an endless layers parameter, like this: I guess that's all one single problem. Does sb. have an idea how get the permalink smaller? osm.org is using some layerCode parameter but I can't find it in the openlayers docs. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Thanks, Peter, for the explanations. I still have some some problems of understanding the Multilingual Maps Overlays project goal/idea and implementation: 1. What is the goal of this project/idea? Is it to simply display alternative name Tags based on language's ISO 639 code? At least the wiki page is not of much help explaining this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names 2. What about names in the local dialect (very important to me)? I'm thinkin about 'Barça' for Barcelona, Spain, or 'Züri' which is Swiss German for Zurich, Switzerland). How to tag those? = Something like 'ch' plus a subdomain? 3. Testing: Can you give me any URL as a demonstration and test case you are using yourself to test the online map at http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ ? 4. Regarding implementation and the layer parameter: * I would restrict the layers (i.e. the language codes) to be displayed at once, say three. So the parameter remains short. * Instead of trying rendering (and preloading) each of the 275 languages as an own, self-contained half-transparent Mapnik tiles, how about taking the basemap as well as a Web Map Server (like mapserver or GeoServer) which delivers names as labels dynamically as GeoJSON. * How to generate, display and control layers for local dialect names (Barça, Züri)? Yours, S. 2010/11/2 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Am 02.11.2010 11:52, schrieb Stefan Keller: Hi Nice idea. I don't see any labels except those already rendered by Mapnik. I looked at osm-labes-de and -ch. That's just because our tile server is very busy rendering those overlays. They are very young and most files below z0-6 have not been rendered yet. 1. Can you give my an example Permalink? 2. Then I encountered a JavaScript problem (some CPU consuming endless loop) when trying to click and launch a Permalink. 3. And the Peramlikn look like it has an endless layers parameter, like this: I guess that's all one single problem. Does sb. have an idea how get the permalink smaller? osm.org is using some layerCode parameter but I can't find it in the openlayers docs. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Hello Peter, On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:31:33 +0200 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: In a attempt to reactivate the Multilingual Maps Project, I started a testcase with language overlays instead of complete language maps. This should save a lot of RAM (loading all 270+ map styles took ~16GB of Memory only for renderd). It's still rendering the low-zoom tiles so it is very slow. I also activated only three language overlays to test the setup but the other stlye-files are already in place and will be activated one after another. So feel free to play around and give comments: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ Nice! Did you modify osm2pgsql in order to import multiple name:XX tags into the PostGIS database ? How is the PostGIS database layout modified ? I'm working on the MapOSMatic project, and we receive requests from people willing to render maps with street names in different languages. Unfortunately, as far as I understood, for the moment, only the main name tag is imported into the PostGIS database by osm2pgsql. So I'm wondering how you achieved this multilingual rendering. Thanks, Thomas -- Thomas Petazzoni http://thomas.enix.org Promouvoir et défendre le Logiciel Libre http://www.april.org Logiciels Libres à Toulouse http://www.toulibre.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 21 June 2010 16:59, Thomas Petazzoni thomas.petazz...@enix.org wrote: Did you modify osm2pgsql in order to import multiple name:XX tags into the PostGIS database ? How is the PostGIS database layout modified ? You just need to add name:xx to the default.style file and then reimport the whole area you want to render, alternatively you can use the hstore stuff someone added, I use name:en by default in the tiles I render. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Thomas Petazzoni schrieb: Hello Peter, On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:31:33 +0200 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: In a attempt to reactivate the Multilingual Maps Project, I started a testcase with language overlays instead of complete language maps. This should save a lot of RAM (loading all 270+ map styles took ~16GB of Memory only for renderd). It's still rendering the low-zoom tiles so it is very slow. I also activated only three language overlays to test the setup but the other stlye-files are already in place and will be activated one after another. So feel free to play around and give comments: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ Nice! Did you modify osm2pgsql in order to import multiple name:XX tags into the PostGIS database ? How is the PostGIS database layout modified ? I'm using the --hstore option of the recent osm2pgsql source. A german tutorial on how to set things up is in the wiki, the commands can help you: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:HowtoMinutelyHstore I'm working on the MapOSMatic project, and we receive requests from people willing to render maps with street names in different languages. Unfortunately, as far as I understood, for the moment, only the main name tag is imported into the PostGIS database by osm2pgsql. So I'm wondering how you achieved this multilingual rendering. Using the hstore we have an indexed column, containing all tags with all values from the main osm db. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 20.06.2010 18:48, Peter Körner: Am 19.06.2010 16:22, schrieb Claudius: Am 19.06.2010 13:22, Peter Körner: Am 19.06.2010 13:13, schrieb Claudius: A better approach would require country- or location-aware rules for choosing fallback languages. There is nor technical probelm here. If we had a fallback chain like: de: de,en,fr ru: ru,cz I'm still wondering if this approach isn't too easy. Aren't there some areas where I would prefer not to show the english name but the regional one for the german view? e.g. in the Netherlands or some spanish regions... it's probably best to just try it out Yes there always combinations where a visitos can read german and spanish and want's to see germany in german and the rest of the world in spanish, but this is not our goal. The main goal is to get the maps into the wikipedias, and in a german wikipedia i'd expect german names where possible and local names otherwise, so name:de with a fallback to name. Now I recall where I see the problem with a fallback rule like de: name:de, name:en, name:fr, name If you look at Germany in the OSM db most of the placenames just have the german name in the name-tag but don't reproduce the redundant information in name:de. If you would take this example node: place=city name=München name:en=Munich the above rule would lead to the english name being shown on the german name overlay. So the fallback needs to be location aware and should probably not trigger in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Claudius ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:40:59 +0200 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: Did you modify osm2pgsql in order to import multiple name:XX tags into the PostGIS database ? How is the PostGIS database layout modified ? I'm using the --hstore option of the recent osm2pgsql source. A german tutorial on how to set things up is in the wiki, the commands can help you: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:HowtoMinutelyHstore I'm working on the MapOSMatic project, and we receive requests from people willing to render maps with street names in different languages. Unfortunately, as far as I understood, for the moment, only the main name tag is imported into the PostGIS database by osm2pgsql. So I'm wondering how you achieved this multilingual rendering. Using the hstore we have an indexed column, containing all tags with all values from the main osm db. Ah, ah, interesting, I didn't know about this. And how does this interface with the Mapnik stylesheet to render names in this or that language ? Thanks! Thomas -- Thomas Petazzoni http://thomas.enix.org Promouvoir et défendre le Logiciel Libre http://www.april.org Logiciels Libres à Toulouse http://www.toulibre.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Thomas Petazzoni schrieb: Ah, ah, interesting, I didn't know about this. And how does this interface with the Mapnik stylesheet to render names in this or that language ? Lie this: http://svn.toolserver.org/svnroot/mazder/styles/osm-labels-poi/osm-labels-de.xml http://svn.toolserver.org/svnroot/mazder/styles/osm-labels-poi/osm-labels.xml Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 19.06.2010 16:22, schrieb Claudius: Am 19.06.2010 13:22, Peter Körner: Am 19.06.2010 13:13, schrieb Claudius: A better approach would require country- or location-aware rules for choosing fallback languages. There is nor technical probelm here. If we had a fallback chain like: de: de,en,fr ru: ru,cz I'm still wondering if this approach isn't too easy. Aren't there some areas where I would prefer not to show the english name but the regional one for the german view? e.g. in the Netherlands or some spanish regions... it's probably best to just try it out Yes there always combinations where a visitos can read german and spanish and want's to see germany in german and the rest of the world in spanish, but this is not our goal. The main goal is to get the maps into the wikipedias, and in a german wikipedia i'd expect german names where possible and local names otherwise, so name:de with a fallback to name. In which format would you like the list and where would you want to integrate it into your stylesheet? I guess you would perform this via PostgreSQL views. Any format will do for a try. It'll be performed in the sql queries of the mapnik xml file, just as i did it here: http://svn.toolserver.org/svnroot/mazder/styles/osm-labels-poi/osm-labels.xml Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 20-6-2010 18:48, Peter Körner wrote: Any format will do for a try. It'll be performed in the sql queries of the mapnik xml file, just as i did it here: http://svn.toolserver.org/svnroot/mazder/styles/osm-labels-poi/osm-labels.xml Isn't it much easier to create a postgresql view for each name:xx ? That way updating your stylesheet is just an 'svn up' away. Now you'd have to merge your changes into the updated versions. -- Lennard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 20.06.2010 19:26, schrieb Lennard: That way updating your stylesheet is just an 'svn up' away. Now you'd have to merge your changes into the updated versions. But I have a custom stylesheet anyway - take a look at the xmls ;) Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On 20-6-2010 19:59, Peter Körner wrote: Am 20.06.2010 19:26, schrieb Lennard: That way updating your stylesheet is just an 'svn up' away. Now you'd have to merge your changes into the updated versions. But I have a custom stylesheet anyway - take a look at the xmls ;) Ah, I see. I think all those non-text elements in a label stylesheet threw me off! :) -- Lennard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 19.06.2010 13:13, schrieb Claudius: A better approach would require country- or location-aware rules for choosing fallback languages. There is nor technical probelm here. If we had a fallback chain like: de: de,en,fr ru: ru,cz or sth. this could be easily applied to the overlays. Does anyone know where to get such a list from or is willing to build one? Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 19.06.2010 13:22, Peter Körner: Am 19.06.2010 13:13, schrieb Claudius: A better approach would require country- or location-aware rules for choosing fallback languages. There is nor technical probelm here. If we had a fallback chain like: de: de,en,fr ru: ru,cz I'm still wondering if this approach isn't too easy. Aren't there some areas where I would prefer not to show the english name but the regional one for the german view? e.g. in the Netherlands or some spanish regions... it's probably best to just try it out In which format would you like the list and where would you want to integrate it into your stylesheet? I guess you would perform this via PostgreSQL views. Claudius ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Am 16.06.2010 15:14, schrieb Lennard: Any moderately dense area would do, but I tested with Soho: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/?zoom=17lat=51.51391lon=-0.13035layers=BTFF I modified the lables-style to reflect this by keeping all PointSymbolizers but hiding them using opacity=0. Btw. all styles can be found here: http://svn.toolserver.org/svnroot/mazder/styles/ The area you linked above looks much cleaner now. I can't say too much about renderd's memory consumption, but we'll see. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
Maybe I should just keep all the geometry objects and just set opacity=0 on them. It's not the geometry objects (roads, water, etc,) that you need to preserve. They don't play a role in the collision avoidance placement routines. Direct your attention to any PointSymbolizer, ShieldSymbolizer and TextSymbolizer if you want to experiment with opacity. Some text elements might still be better in the base map. House numbers come to mind. Oh, and don't forget this will increase the memory consumption again. Not as much as with 200+ complete stylesheets, since you don't need to keep LineSymbolizer/Polygon(Pattern)Symbolizer around, but still worth to keep an eye on. I'll give it a try this evening. In the meantime - do you have a link where you see this problem, so I can test with it? Any moderately dense area would do, but I tested with Soho: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/?zoom=17lat=51.51391lon=-0.13035layers=BTFF -- Lennard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Multilingual Maps Overlays
On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 14:57 +0200, Lennard wrote: This seems like the most logical thing to do, although I'm curious how much things would overlap since mapnik wouldn't know which language layer is being shown to move things around a bit. Mapnik doesn't move things around to fit. And quite a lot of overlap, actually. The text overlay places text where it sees fit, without taking any of the base map symbols/positioning into account. It's most apparent when at the highest zooms, in dense areas with lots of POIs. I think that only applies to objects which use the point placement method. For road labels it uses 'line placement' and this will move a label if it finds the first position overlaps with another one. This is important for gridded road layouts, e.g. compare the intersection of William Monument streets in Mapnik and Osmarender: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.00572lon=115.76109zoom=17layers=B000FTF It is not an iterative approach, it does not go back and try updating the position of labels which have already been placed. Jon ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
