tput, instead of
the possible arch + noarch sets. I've fixed these two problems in
fedpkg, but I'm not really putting time into Makefile.common. I was
surprised nobody had found this yet, I assumed it was a little used
target.
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On Wed, 2010-01-13 at 03:54 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Oh, and we definitely need a source code indexer for fedora too!
It's coming.
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Description: This is a digitally signed
On Wed, 2010-01-13 at 18:07 +0100, Pierre-Yves wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-01-13 at 10:53 -0600, Matt Domsch wrote:
> > R-pls: [u'538957']
> Pending for stable
>
> Regards,
> Pierre
>
Stable what? these are rawhide things that don't rebuild.
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; able to use a mixture of programs written with both stacks.
Alternatives is system wide, but it can be per application. So you can
decide which apps use python3 and which use 2.6.
if you want to go further you can make it per-user with environment
modules.
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time to fix it prior to the freeze.
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h, we
felt it was only necessary to orphan the particular packages in
question. These maintainers may have been active elsewhere, and
wholesale orphaning with very little notice does not seem appropriate.
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ripts do different things, alternatives
> shouldn't be used anyway.
>
I wasn't really suggesting we use alternatives, I was merely pointing
out the way in which alternatives could work and also pointing out the
alternative of environment modules.
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y release we round up the orphans and block
them from the release. Since this practice already existed, it made
sense to orphan the FTBFS packages and give folks a chance to reclaim
them before we block all the orphans, not just the FTBFS ones.
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ide
dealt with appropriately.
If a volunteer wishes to instigate a non-responsive process on all the
maintainers, that is a separate matter which can happen concurrently to
the current actions.
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D
open floor (Oxf13, 18:34:28)
* Rawhide composes have been broken since Friday, Oxf13 to look into
it (Oxf13, 18:38:12)
* LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Important_Release_Milestones
(poelcat, 18:40:08)
Meeting ended at 18:51:34 UTC.
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nonsense bug report
> opened against the package
Yet, this package still gets built nearly once a year, sometimes twice a
year, due to changes in the distribution. You may not be doing the
builds, but the package is getting touched and built.
Can the drama please.
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ream I suspect we'll
be seeing even more need to rebuild everything, at least once a year.
In fact, if we were only checking once a year, I bet many of these
packages are going to get hidden behind the mass rebuilder.
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hould be able to detect when either of those goes wrong, probably
easiest to do the koji cert one. If there was some way to take the list
of accounts in pkgdb, and compare them to the active valid certs, and
any discrepancies where the account owns packages, we can tag those for
needing attention.
-
On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 15:08 -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:55:13AM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 20:44 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> > >
> > > Imho the only real problem from your list is, if a package is
> >
On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 13:39 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> It might have been missed in the passing but:
>
> We have to reset our bugzilla password frequently
> We have to renew our Koji cert once a year
>
> We should be able to detect when either of those goes wrong, probab
r they own it. That's the approach when we discover
mismaintained packages, and orphan them at the package level.
These two approaches are not mutually exclusive, and can likely use some
of the same data.
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Just an FYI that I've refreshed the repos at
pkgs.stg.fedoraproject.org . I had picked up some tips on setting up
the repos a bit better and so I've done that. Anybody with existing
clones will have to remove them and re-clone.
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ident
;
Kernel is open to provenpackager, so it makes sense that you were able
to commit to it.
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/name/kernel
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signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed messa
x27;ve done a default workstation (desktop needs it) or server (want
> admin tools etc. to use) install. In practice, since NetworkManager
> is in base, dbus gets pulled in, but we should make this explicit.
>
Looks fine by me.
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two pending SOP documents today
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De
owners. For the packages that do
get owners, we can free up whichever branches the new maintainer wishes,
which may not be all of them.
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at
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/browser/scripts/find-unblocked-orphans.py
There you can also report bugs and RFEs.
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Description: This is a digitally signed me
On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 11:14 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> Nevertheless, what is the recommended procedure to claim the other
> branches? Is it a ticket to FESCo trac or a CVS Admin procedure
> request?
Honestly that's a good question. I'd start with a FESCo ticket and see
what
we may have usable
images this run that we can publish as "last known good".
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deliver stable updates that's a
reason to investigate to see what went wrong.
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On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 00:27 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> [and it ends here]
>
> The report got truncated yet again. :-(
Missed the fact that it was getting truncated. Looking into it.
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sign
mages for the rawhide
tree. Rawhide is just a repo of packages. When we branch for Alpha
we'll publish the release to be in it's own tree path with images
nightly. Rawhide will move on to F14 stuff.
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On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 10:59 -0700, Orion Poplawski wrote:
> On 01/29/2010 10:53 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > As part of No Frozen Rawhide, we no longer make images for the rawhide
> > tree. Rawhide is just a repo of packages. When we branch for Alpha
> > we'll publish
On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 15:13 -0800, John Reiser wrote:
>
> The last entry on
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2010-January/date.html
> is for 09 January 2010, which is almost three weeks ago.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2010-January/date.
Action Items
* Oxf13 to work on documenting "Sign packages for Alpha" task
* Oxf13 will test multiple concurrent composes to compare completion
time
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Description: This i
rt TMPDIR=/dev/shm/pungi-$$"]
>
> --
Wrong compose time. The compose time we're talking about is from mash,
which is heavily disk bound. In the full mash+pungi compose, mash takes
on the order of 6 hours, pungi takes on the order of 10 minutes. These
composes don't
here is conflict, some general help in deciding who
gets the change and who doesn't is welcome.
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erall target audience who "trumps" other
audiences when there is a conflict. So that we can say "You are free to
do whatever meets your needs, so long as it doesn't disrupt the needs of
our target audience".
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identi.ca:
s?
Once the differences within the special interest groups moves beyond
just different subsets of packages, and actually starts to focus on the
behavior of the shared packages things break down.
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Desc
in can be done within those constraints, or if they have to go
the way of a remix to accomplish their goal. Right now they don't have
any guideline and are left to discover things on a package by package
basis creating conflict as they go.
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Fedora -- Free
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 14:16 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 13:15 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
> >>
> >> Your example doesn't work, Xubuntu is still bound to the package set
> >> in
egard for anything
else and achieving massive penetration into their target. We cannot say
the same.
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fs to 'ssh://ppi...@pkgs.fedoraproject.org/SDL'
>
> I guess a person with ACL permission (e.g. SDL owner) is able to do so.
>
> Is it intentional feature or just a not yet resolved issue?
>
> -- Petr
>
The ACL system might be confused based on the name of that acciden
ioned. Someone could
> file a RFE.
>
An RFE with patches would be better. Admittedly I didn't spend a lot of
time on -B as I don't necessarily like there being two "official" ways
of working with your git repos. It makes documentation and helping
people harder.
- -
the remote branches, I've been thinking about making
fedpkg push operations follow the behavior of pushing to the remote
branch you're tracking.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (
s type of convenience
action will allow you to get more reliable items to compare, namely
hashsums.
Yes, I know we could forcefully make tags "immutable" with remote repo
configuration, however I feel that would be imposing too much upon the
developers as to how they should use their repos
7;t mess with the content within, in case the package
gets brought back to life. Discuss
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http
why we separated the concepts out and
have two branches.
>
> Wasn't there some kind of automatic migration between the to-be-released
> distro and rawhide? What happened to that?
>
When an F14 build goes stable through bodhi, it'll be inherited into
rawhide.
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Jesse Keat
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/12/2010 12:42 AM, Andreas Schwab wrote:
> Jesse Keating writes:
>
>> When an F14 build goes stable through bodhi, it'll be inherited into
>> rawhide.
>
> Unless there is already a release of the package tagged
final RC is approved.
How do you suggest we be "more conservative"? If you expect the
developers to do this on their own, good luck. If you want there to be
some sort of enforcement I welcome suggestions.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
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al path set of packages, however I'm not sure how
we can enforce a freeze on those packages before a "freeze" on all the
other packages (ie forcing everything through bodhi like we do at the
branch)
We can ask and say pretty please, but I suspect as long as the
buildsystem allow
e smarter than upstream,
particularly when the kernel is involved. The package maintainer
ultimately has control over what does or does not go into their package,
and in this case they seem to be favoring sticking close to upstream as
opposed to throwing in code willy nilly because it looks cool.
folks are likely walking the same path. For core components
such as the kernel and our web browser, this does not seem like a bad
thing at all.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
C
This is where Kevin blames the scenario on not having the same sqlite on all of
the Fedora releases, which is another evil plot hatched by the devils of
FESCo
"seth vidal" wrote:
>On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 18:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Al Dunsmuir wrote:
>> > You are assuming that it is
Doing so would have changed behavior and broken software that relied upon that
behavior. Sounds like a great way to run the distro
"Kevin Kofler" wrote:
>seth vidal wrote:
>> and that's what the testing helped with. The bug was noticed. It was
>> patched upstream to accomodate the versions
have different
software versions and act different in real life ways. This is just the current
example.
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"Kevin Kofler" wrote:
>Jesse Keating wrote:
>> Doing so would have changed behavior
New packages can break existing systems. Leak ram, eat filesystems, leak
personal data, leak root, dos a system, etc...
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"Martin Sourada" wrote:
>On Sat, 2010-08-14 at 19:14 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
enforcing the guidelines against God^H^H^Hour lead release
> engineer… :-(
>
> Kevin Kofler
>
I'm still looking for an android email client that allows me to place
the reply below the quoted text. I guess an alternative is to delete
the entire quoted text...
- --
Jesse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/14/2010 08:50 PM, inode0 wrote:
> On Saturday, August 14, 2010, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> I'm still looking for an android email client that allows me to place
>> the reply below the quoted text. I guess an alternative is to
"Mark Knoop" wrote:
>
>1. Hit reply
>2. Long-touch on the quoted text > Copy all
>3. Long-touch on the message text > Paste
>4. Touch the [X] above the quoted text to remove the original quoted
Hey, that's not too bad. Thanks!
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without some scripting. We no longer create the hack that made this
possible.
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Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
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-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http
ates-candidate'. This is done automatically when you
have successfully built a package from a branch. When you get this
message, that either means you are referencing a build that has not been
done, has not been complete yet, or has otherwise already been moved
around within Koji tags.
I do agr
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/17/10 1:07 PM, Orion Poplawski wrote:
> On 08/16/2010 03:01 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 8/16/10 1:38 PM, Orion Poplawski wrote:
>>> Is it possible to c
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/17/10 2:12 PM, Orion Poplawski wrote:
> On 08/17/2010 02:28 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> If you're able to create a long term ssh socket to the git server you
>> could re-use the connection and save a significant portion
under
f13/. Again you cannot conflict with f13/master.
However, since git allows you to create local branches at will without
any restrictions, one has to ask if it is still necessary to have a
remote branch for your work.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/5/10 8:02 AM, Paul Howarth wrote:
> On 02/08/10 20:53, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 08/02/2010 11:55 AM, Adam Goode wrote:
>>> Didn't want this to get l
ot;, "--define", "fedora
> 1", "-q", "--qf", "%{VERSION} ", "--specfile",
> "/home/petr/fedora/nas/nas.spec"],...)
>
> You can check it with this simple spec file:
>
> %if 0%{?fedora} > 8
> echo TRUE
The bump script lives in releng git repo (git.fedorahosted.org/releng if
anybody wants to hack on it.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG
g schemes including some odd
> ones.
Oops. I had though it was there, but I'm wrong.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darw
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/18/10 1:31 PM, Paul Howarth wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:43:57 -0700
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> On 8/5/10 8:02 AM, Paul Howarth wrote:
>>> On 02/08/10 20:53, Jesse Keating wrote:
>>>> -BEGIN PGP SI
;> b) Noone wants to use Google Wave. See a)
>>
>> Rahul
>>
>
> a) you're a troll
> b) you're a troll
>
>
He's not actually a troll, and that was not very excellent. Google Wave
has indeed been shut down.
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/
the old functionality back, where
there was a line in /etc/fstab that made it easy to mount certain things
manually when it was convenient and/or safe for the user to do so?
I think adding more flexibility is interesting, but not at the cost of
changing (rather drastically) the semantics of an establ
ested with Fedora 14 branched. Unlike the old days if you missed
one release you had to wait months before trying again, we now are able
to give you a development tree for the next release immediately.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
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work out?
I don't have an opinion on that front. I'm just trying to show that
/if/ it was decided that F14 was a no-go for systemd, all is not lost
and development+testing can continue in the F15 tree.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi
ithout causing
Beta to slip. Or FESCo could decide that systemd is worth slipping for
and thus enact a slip until systemd can pass the "do or die" test set.
Either way, clearly mark the goals, let Lennart shoot for them.
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: ht
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 7/30/10 9:34 PM, Ben Boeckel wrote:
> I'd like to get some wider testing on it than what I subjected it to.
> Constructive criticism welcome.
>
Did you ever get testing on this?
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Fedora -- Freedom² is a feat
/updates/fedora-packager-0.5.1.3-1.fc13
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/fedora-packager-0.5.1.3-1.fc12
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/fedora-packager-0.5.1.3-1.el5
Those are the bodhi links. Testing + karma would be appreciated!
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
"Andrew Haley" wrote:
>On 08/24/2010 02:58 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>> Chris Adams wrote:
>>> What do we gain by not having any MTA installed (other than a little bit
>>> of disk space)? I understand that "a little bit of disk space" can add
>>> up quick, but a local queueing MTA is a pr
releng member only push dist-f13-updates-testing.
>
> Bill
Nor is testing / stability atomic / equal across the branches. While
the f13 package may work fine, the f12 build may have severe problems.
They need to be treated individually.
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.
100% (274/274), done.
>
> Bug? Or my wrong setup/use case? Thanks
>
> Jaroslav
It's a bug. This got introduced with a patch to add push.default =
tracking when doing a clone, apparently it didn't get tested with clone
- -B. Fix pushed and will be in the next build.
BTW if a
ush. fedpkg will prevent you from trying to build something that
hasn't been pushed unless you're doing a scratch build. commit and push
are very thin wrappers over the git equivs.
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP
etter
one" it's "why the heck can't linux work with this, is linux still a
piece of crap?". Replacing the soundcard in a laptop is even more tricky.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
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them, so that if somebody tested the f14 update and
found it OK, that would give you the right to push the update for every
branch, regardless of testing results (or the lack thereof) on the other
branches.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeatin
are higher and the amount of testing
> required is greater.
>
> The "contingency plans" on most of the feature pages seem to state only
> what the rolled-back configuration is, not how it will be tested.
>
Sounds like good feedback for the feature wrangler and f
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/24/10 2:13 PM, Till Maas wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 01:15:54PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>
>> Because generally whats on the mainboard (or in the laptop) works. If
>> it didn't work, the first reaction isn&#
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/25/10 3:45 AM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote:
> Excerpts from Daniel P. Berrange's message of Wed Aug 25 11:08:16 +0200 2010:
>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:34:36AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESS
"Matej Cepl" wrote:
>Jesse Keating, Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:44:34 -0700:
>> I just submitted updates for el5 and f1{2,3,4} as well as a build for
>> rawhide (f15) of a new fedpkg build. Here is a summary from the rpm:
>
>EL6?
>
>--
>
A build, and a late
say waiting for -testing is too
late, and things in dist-f14-updates-candidate (eg the fresh builds)
should go into rawhide as well. It's certainly a discussion we could have.
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Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
-BEGIN PGP SIG
;
> Al
>
That's strange. I use it on my laptop, which has a caching local DNS
server (dnsmasq) and it works just fine. I do have a script in
/etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/ that waits for bringup and vpn bring
up to make adjustments to the running local DNS server (which seems
e
"Chris Adams" wrote:
>Once upon a time, Garrett Holmstrom said:
>> While it may be debatable what benefit one might get from removing it
>> from the default install, can we at least remove MTAs from @core to help
>> make things easier for appliance folks? One can still go in @base,
>> whic
r -updates as a secondary tag to the build.
This should ensure that the latest /built/ is nearly always the latest
/tagged/ in -candidate. What side effects this might have on the rest
of the system I don't know at this point, but messing with our tag
structure is not something to be taken li
"Mattias Ellert" wrote:
>tor 2010-08-26 klockan 13:27 -0700 skrev Jesse Keating:
>>
>> "Matej Cepl" wrote:
>>
>> >Jesse Keating, Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:44:34 -0700:
>> >> I just submitted updates for el5 and f1{2,3,4} as well as a b
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/27/2010 02:43 AM, Thomas Moschny wrote:
> 2010/8/27 Jesse Keating :
>> That's strange. I use it on my laptop, which has a caching local DNS
>> server (dnsmasq) and it works just fine. I do have a script in
>> /etc/N
"Jon Masters" wrote:
>On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 17:54 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 16:37 -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Ah yes, attack the symptom and not the disease. Yay. Let me let you in
>> > on a secret. Most people (and by which I mean, those not on this li
"Jon Masters" wrote:
>On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 15:47 -0700, Bob Arendt wrote:
>
>> I think it would be much better for Fedora to decide what it *should* be,
>> specifically what the Fedora userspace should be, and excel at that.
>> Don't follow the "market" or worry about being the most popular di
"James Cassell" wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:00:07 -0400, Branched Report
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Removed package: pastebin-0.60-6.fc12
>
>Why has this been removed?
>
>
It was removed because it was orphaned and nobody took ownership.
--
Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse my brevity.
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 08/28/2010 05:31 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 17:16:12 +,
>>"\"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson\"" wrote:
>>> It's not far from reality that Red Hat will get bought by a company
>>> like Oracle so what's preventing us to get the same t
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 08/28/2010 06:42 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> This is utter bullshit. It assumes that anybody who works in the corporate
>> world and happens to have an interest in Fedora is somehow going to be a
>> puppet for the Smokey b
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 08/28/2010 08:28 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> What are you afraid of?
>
>I think my concerns have been very clear.
>
>> Fedora is not a country, you don't have to move to get away. All the code
>> is free. Mos
"Mike Chambers" wrote:
>When doing a fresh F14 install (tonight), and starting evolution for
>first time and doing a restore, it didn't seem to convert my filters nor
>addressbook, or at least to the proper locations. I got he filters.xml
>copied over to i think the .config/evolution/mail fold
issues/detail?id=2240
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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iEYEARECAAYFAkx71K0ACgkQ4v2HLvE71NVLWACfWbB1EJwwmKJvRil3O3
a lot of that work, and then
diverged without contributing back, or even communicating with them. A
more tight relationship when possible between the jpackage version of a
package and ours, and the jpackage maintainer and ours would go a long
way to help.
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom²
e documentation, the mirrors, etc... I
don't see any amount of trying to shadow corporate employees with
"community" (what does that even mean?) making any amount of difference
on this point.
- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
---
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On 08/28/2010 09:25 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
>> The cynic in me would expect that the people who want something different
>> than the fire hose we have now are silently leaving, and those that are
>> left
"Thomas Janssen" wrote:
>On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 08/28/2010 09:25 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>>> The cynic in me
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