them from deltas. Only users on really slow connections benefit from it.)
My desktop can rebuild deltas at ~3MB/sec. So even my really fast
internet connection is slower than delta rebuild.
Your internet connection is clearly not fast enough. :)
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advantage of our
platform in a dubious race to compete on the desktop -- but that's tilting
at windmills. Our approach going forward is going to be personal remote
virtual machines -- the resources are still centralized, but the
applications can't tell.
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with the assumption that networks are a random transient resource, we'll end
up conceding our place in the data center in exchange for an incredibly tiny
slice of the desktop pie.
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isn't a good idea.
Plus this fires up git, grep, and python every time you hit enter at the
command line. That seems... not the best.
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to be specified with versions?
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On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:10:25PM +0800, Chen Lei wrote:
I found that systemd-units depends on pkgconfig, is this dependency
really needed for minimum systemd?
Please file things like this in bugzilla so they don't get lost in the chaos
of this discussion list.
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. But being able to shut a system down in the future -- or at
least with a little warning to users -- is useful and important.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624149
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On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 04:36:40PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624149
Thanks, Lennart, for working on this promptly.
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the moment someone types in a
root password, even if they're on a different terminal. I accept that
This sounds like yet another good argument for removing the need to ever
type a root password.
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recognize that there's better ways
of doing it. But I was surprised when I updated this system to latest
rawhide and rebooted, because it came up with that filesystem mounted.
Is this expected behavior?
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systemd, but *not awesome* for the distribution or for its
users. Or, on the other hand, is it a matter of a few kinks which we can get
solved before release?
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On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 12:40:35PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
So, my question is serious. If we go ahead with systemd for F14, will we be
hit with an onslaught of confusion, trouble, and change? That would be good
for testing systemd, but *not awesome* for the distribution or for its
users
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 12:40:35PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Is it helpful at this point if I file a bug for systemd's noauto behavior?
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=626502
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for login. I know it's not feasible for most end-user desktops, but here we
use two-factor authentication tokens for administrative access.
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my
noauto filesystem, for example.
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. I want to avoid that.
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cases where if you don't know what it means, you
probably don't care.
I mean, if you're outside of Massachusetts, why are you interested in the
Teachers' Association?
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would need to be tested and verified. This document focuses on
backwards compatibility. THIS IS GOING TO BE VERY VERBOSE. Comments, changes,
etc. welcome.
Thanks Bill. This looks very helpful. I'll look it over tomorrow.
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, it should be something that can be easily configured
to smarthost and use SMTP AUTH. I would use sendmail for that, but
that's just me (I understand many don't want sendmail and I have no
problem with that).
+1
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of the comps change, since it will get pulled in by something important at
some point. Rsyslog, for example, can send output via e-mail.
Having a very simple mail-queue-and-relay program as an alternative to
sendmail seems like a better choice than just ditching it.
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On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:00:55AM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
I can't remember interactive boot ever working.
It does in RHEL 5. It will need to be working for RHEL 7.
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document and
issues with design and intent can be addressed.
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that systemd is worth slipping for
and thus enact a slip until systemd can pass the do or die test set.
Either way, clearly mark the goals, let Lennart shoot for them.
FTR, this sounds perfect to me. I am not opposed to systemd a priori.
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would arguably be to provide a stub /usr/sbin/sendmail
that ties into a more generic event reporting interface, which in turn
could be configured to send mail elsewhere but would default to popping
up some sort of desktop notification.
+1. C'mon, prolific desktop code guys. :)
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, and
then eventually it can go away.
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-optimal once they're out in the real world. Freezing these decisions
too soon is one of the strong arguments for waiting until F15.
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a request, though, not a demand.
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a concise
human-understandable output and the apppropriate return code
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of
the system. Is there some way in which complete working runlevel targets
are distinguished from other ones which I am missing?
Thanks!
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. I am saying,
however, that it's important to get the service command working with
systemctl so that people can use that instead.
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in the discussion, which, again, I appreciate,
we have a chance of things going well. But from the point of view of someone
actively testing systemd, it's looking pretty rocky. You can ignore that if
you want, but *Fedora* can't.
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mentioning that the only reason I got involved with testing
systemd is because I read the initial post and thought it seemed interesting
and cool. In other words, I *have* opted in.
And you're getting testing, and I'm finding bugs.
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:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=143437
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! It is the case.
I'm starting to feel a bit like Cassandra here.
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while we fix it up.
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can.
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follow the /etc/inittab first. If
if it makes sense, perhaps systemd should change the default.target to
match.
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is: if AUTOEXEC.BAT had been historically checked as part of our
boot process, then yes, by all means.
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Fedora
13 and RHEL 5 return 'S'.
I would like to see tab-completion for systemctl working before the final
release. That's a request, though, not a demand.
Happy to take patches!
I can work on this.
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/ FESCO deterimines that that's the best
fix, it doesn't mean systemd is a failure. It means that Fedora wasn't ready
for it yet.
Obviously if the item in question fails both with systemd and upstart, it's
a different sort of blocker.
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:
/sbin/chkconfig | grep 3:on
and I get a nice, no-nonsense list. Can I get that with systemd?
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taken down for maintenance
(my first reaction both here and on Solaris).
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of blocker.
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running at all.
But don't expect this right-away, this is not completely trivial to
implement.
Trust me, thinking that any of this is trivial is not a problem I am having.
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not suggesting these things to harass you, or even because I want
you to make me happy. (In fact, I'm *already* happy.) I'm suggesting them
because I think they're improvements that will make systemd more pleasant to
use, which will in turn increase acceptance.
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people really like systemd. If it can't be, document clearly that it's
planned.
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broken thing to do. Since runlevels 3 and 5 are the ones
anaconda writes this should be the safest bet.
For the record, I agree that those scripts are probably horrible old
kludges. It's just nice when we can not break those. So, again, thanks for
reponsiveness on this, Lennart.
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for NetworkManager on machines that don't
move around?
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On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 07:06:06PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
I don't think this is an important change, in the sense that I've noted
others as important. But, like changing isolate to switch-to, it
improves the user experience. With terms like isolate and maintenance,
systemd comes
and then get out of the
way when there's nothing but static interfaces defined, awesome. Perhaps
this is where the conversation is relevant to the larger thread: systemd
could take care of that. It could even reactivate the service if the
situation changes.
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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:08:13AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
The compelling use case is that it doesn't make sense to maintain 2
pieces
of core infrastructure code doing the same thing, especially when one's
functionality is a subset of the other's. (Now the problem is that it still
?
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.
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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 02:05:01PM +0200, Jan Safranek wrote:
bug number?
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=626794
thanks.
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://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=627277
At a minimum, this should be explained in a comment in a dummy inittab
file. But I'm still holding out hope for implementation of
backwards-compatibility for initdefault:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=626855
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should be
clear on what's intented to work now (each user session in a unique cgroup)
and insure that that's working, document (loosely) plans for the future, and
define how systemd's use of cgroups should interact with other tools (like
libcgroup) for this release and for the future.
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) giving a concise explanation of why the new semantics are better
3) showing off the command and how to use it
4) showing something cool this give you that chkconfig doesn't offer.
1. as discussed here:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-August/141713.html
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, will be built today/tomorrow.
I saw -- thanks, and looking forward to trying it.
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/show_bug.cgi?id=626794
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and creates cgroups
automatically for services.
This overlap doesn't seem good for the distribution.
Dan, *could* systemd as it stands provide what you need for sandboxes?
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!
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On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 09:59:59AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Dan, *could* systemd as it stands provide what you need for sandboxes?
Having looked a bit more at libcgroup, let me put this question in an
entirely different way, because I understand better what's going on. So:
Dan, do you use
haven't been paying enough attention, I guess. Why don't inherited
packages hit rawhide when they get to the testing tree? Seems like that'd
help a lot with the testing!
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into updates-testing that never
get released. We could revisit this policy, though.
Trade-offs: rawhide more likely to get broken vs. packages more likely to
get looked at in testing (I suppose that's obvious, but, y'know, for the
record and all.)
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it be possible to have systemd either use libcgroup to mount these
directories, or to parse the libcgroup config file to determine where to put
the mounts?
I hope this clears things up a little. The summary:
There's not systemd vs. libcgroup; more a systemd + libcgroup = ♥
:)
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it to just work.
Useful information is being generated and then lost. That shouldn't happen.
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.
Okay, yeah, I was confused there between the library and the included tools.
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it?
Why not fix it eventually?
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the current state.
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into rawhide as well. It's certainly a discussion we could have.
I'm willing to sacrifice my stable rawhide desktop system in the name of
getting Fedora more testing. Where should this discussion be had?
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On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:17:37AM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
FESCo. rel-eng will implement it (it's a one-line koji command), but the
decision isn't really rel-eng's to make unilaterally.
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/452
Ahsome.
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On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:47:14AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
OK, I just updated to v8-3 and have the latest initscripts, too. I tried
to shut down twice (I invoked sudo systemctl daemon-reexec before the
second time), and I still cannot power down by clicking on the power off
button
. The screen goes black, but the mouse pointer remains on the black
screen and is movable, but nothing further occurs. I have to go to a
different virtual terminal, log in as root, and run systemctl isolate
poweroff.target. Then, it powers off.
What do the logs say?
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On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 09:10:35AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
I'll copy this to the ticket as well, but there are some non-trivial
roadblocks to this.
Thanks for putting thought into it. I don't think it's at all urgent, but it
my exposure to packages which need testing.
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.
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to shut down from text mode?
Please file a bug.
Where are the logs for systemd? In /var/log/messages, maybe?
Yep.
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a pretty strong
interest in minimalism.
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to configure, easy to update, easy to
install whether a single system or 400 systems in a lab. We we're easy to
administrate in the same scenarios.
This sounds like an excellent definition for what Fedora should be.
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the problem here is that we need to market Rawhide better to Fedora
developers.
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pushed to Rawhide after they've been through F14
testing.
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://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_Frozen_Rawhide_Proposal
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#Start_page
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Fedora release tree
is branched in less than six months, the new features automatically become
widely available.
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are kidding.
nope, I'm 100 % serious
Unfortunately, then: this does not currently match reality.
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repositories do not
get enough exposure or formal testing to demonstrate that an update is okay.
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is on top of the other.
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of that that would be unique is the commitment to
upstream -- something which will be appreciated by few
I don't think that's fair at all. Fedora is unique in a lot of ways, and a
waterfall of updates isn't essential to that uniqueness.
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it nicer for some
purposes (like a derived distribution). My point isn't to argue about the
relative virtues of different technology, but that key points of the
distribution-glue are unique.
And Fedora *is* fast -- see above.
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for that, by the way.
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explaining, if we want that transition to go smoothly.
And it should be in the index under init as well as systemd. And also, it
should not go under Boot -- it is a system which manages processes on the
system from startup to shutdown.
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to System Daemons perhaps it could go there and not get lost,
but I suspect system admins would need to make lots of changes to their
init scripts and I would think the first place they would look would be
Boot.
Can we cross-reference things? It's reasonable to look for it there.
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On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:04:04PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
Which OEMs care enough about Linux support to use a more expensive part?
Seriously. I will go buy their stuff right now.
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: generally,
one month after the previous release, and maybe sooner for changes affecting
critical-path components. Then, the main decision for default/not-default
could be at the point of the alpha release, with a second re-check before
beta release. Features should not be reverted after beta.
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approach. This isn't helped
by the description of the Feature Submission Deadline as not being really a
deadline at all: FESCo will consider features proposed after this deadline
on an exception basis.
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, take a look at running Rawhide. I do on my primary desktop
machine at work, and it's great.
That said, I think the process for update this component to a new point
release must necessarily be different from the one for replacing a core
component with a completely new design.
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process.
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that is working reliably day-by-day.
Yes, but I also see the same for the server side... server admins hate
having to tweak config files after an update to get a service back up
too.
I'm not sure hate is quite strong enough of a word here. :)
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commiters which might decide to become its maintainer.
I wish I had time to work on it. :(
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at this for a work project, and my
test Yubikeys arrived today.
I'm a little disturbed by the pam module in Fedora Rawhide, though -- it
seems to segfault on success, which is non-ideal behavior for a security
module.
--
Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org
Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional
-- basically two separate configurations in one device.
--
Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org
Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services
Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences
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