Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, 29 Apr, 2013 at 23:36:22 GMT, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: The key to minimizing a desktop IMHO is getting a lighter browser. It's really hard to use a machine without a browser these days, and both Firefox and Chromium are humongous. They've got great JavaScript engines but who needs all that other stuff? Of the really light, HTML5-capable browsers, there's uzbl, luakit, dwb, jumanji, and surf. I'm probably missing a few. Maybe Midori is more what you're aiming for though? I think webkit2gtk ships with a light browser example as well. -- Ben -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
Le Mer 1 mai 2013 01:37, Sandro Mani a écrit : (here it might be a good idea to have the dejavu-sans-fonts as dependencies of kdm / kde-workspace?) Please not, such font hardcoding in deps does not age well. If you want to preselect specific font packages, do it via comps groups. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
Le Mer 1 mai 2013 02:17, Sandro Mani a écrit : On 01.05.2013 02:08, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-05-01 01:37 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: # yum install @critical-path-gnome The gnome one is close, the kde one not: critpath contains kdelibs and kdm, but a minimal set would rather look like base + xorg + mesa + kdm kde-workspace dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts (here it might be a good idea to have the dejavu-sans-fonts as dependencies of kdm / kde-workspace?) Why only DejaVu (which along with Verdana and Vera have the significantly largest average x-height and width of common western web fonts)? Aren't the dejavu fonts those which are mapped to the standard sans, serif and monospace fonts? (could very well be wrong here). What good are TTF/OTF fonts without Xorg? Most our fonts are mapped to the relevant generic aliases, mapping them is part of our standard font packaging process. Dejavu tend to be preferred over other fonts when installed because it has decent glyphs for a lot of scripts, but nothing prevents you from running a Fedora system with other fonts now (or even specifying different priorities in /etc). A lot of other fonts have 'nicer' glyphs for specific scripts. What they usually lack is consistent quality over large coverage, it's easy to draw a few hundred glyphs, i18n requires a lot more. Hardcoding specific fonts in package deps only leads to sterile debates about the best font to hardcode, and always angers part of the users, since none of the existing fonts has wide and good enough coverage to satisfy all user groups (that's why @fonts is a group with *lots* of default entries). -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 03.05.2013 14:20, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: Le Mer 1 mai 2013 02:17, Sandro Mani a écrit : On 01.05.2013 02:08, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-05-01 01:37 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: # yum install @critical-path-gnome The gnome one is close, the kde one not: critpath contains kdelibs and kdm, but a minimal set would rather look like base + xorg + mesa + kdm kde-workspace dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts (here it might be a good idea to have the dejavu-sans-fonts as dependencies of kdm / kde-workspace?) Why only DejaVu (which along with Verdana and Vera have the significantly largest average x-height and width of common western web fonts)? Aren't the dejavu fonts those which are mapped to the standard sans, serif and monospace fonts? (could very well be wrong here). What good are TTF/OTF fonts without Xorg? Most our fonts are mapped to the relevant generic aliases, mapping them is part of our standard font packaging process. Dejavu tend to be preferred over other fonts when installed because it has decent glyphs for a lot of scripts, but nothing prevents you from running a Fedora system with other fonts now (or even specifying different priorities in /etc). A lot of other fonts have 'nicer' glyphs for specific scripts. What they usually lack is consistent quality over large coverage, it's easy to draw a few hundred glyphs, i18n requires a lot more. Hardcoding specific fonts in package deps only leads to sterile debates about the best font to hardcode, and always angers part of the users, since none of the existing fonts has wide and good enough coverage to satisfy all user groups (that's why @fonts is a group with *lots* of default entries). Thanks for the explanation! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 01/05/13 01:37, Sandro Mani wrote: On 30.04.2013 11:38, Kalev Lember wrote: On 29/04/13 16:58, Sandro Mani wrote: (FWIW, I guess telepathy-logger should be a dependency of gnome-shell) I'll look into adding the telepathy-logger dep to gnome-shell. I guess something should have a dep on gnome-session-xsession as well, possibly also gnome-shell. Thanks! ... and done: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/gnome-shell-3.8.1-2.fc19 -- Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, 2013-04-29 at 10:52 -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote: On 04/29/2013 10:01 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: That said, if someone wanted to do the exploration, come up with those minimal package sets and propose them for inclusion to comps.xml (with the blessing of the related desktop SIG), I have no problems with it myself. To a certain extent, this has already been done. yum groupinfo gnome- desktop will list the mandatory packages for the group. (Although it's still a pretty hefty list.) AFAIK, there isn't any easy way to install just the mandatory packages in a group. One has to set group_package_types in yum.conf. Right, that's what I was going to say. This just seems to be the boundary between 'mandatory' and 'default' in comps. If that boundary is currently drawn wrong, we could certainly revise it, and it seems a reasonable feature request for yum to add an easy way to install only mandatory packages. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 29/04/13 16:58, Sandro Mani wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Rich Mattes wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Well, those groups are not exactly minimal. We already have one set of minimal desktop functionality defined by the critical path groups. There are groups for GNOME, KDE, LXDE, XFCE. I am not sure how much they cover for other desktops, but the GNOME critical path group should (hopefully) be enough to bring up a minimal Shell. On 30/04/13 01:49, Sandro Mani wrote: To make an example: gnome3: Minimal Install + mesa-dri-drivers xorg-x11-server-Xorg xorg-x11-drivers gnome-session-xsession gnome-shell telepathy-logger (and possibly control-center) Does this work for you well enough? # yum install @critical-path-gnome (FWIW, I guess telepathy-logger should be a dependency of gnome-shell) I'll look into adding the telepathy-logger dep to gnome-shell. I guess something should have a dep on gnome-session-xsession as well, possibly also gnome-shell. Hope this helps, Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 30.04.2013 11:38, Kalev Lember wrote: On 29/04/13 16:58, Sandro Mani wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Rich Mattes wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Well, those groups are not exactly minimal. We already have one set of minimal desktop functionality defined by the critical path groups. There are groups for GNOME, KDE, LXDE, XFCE. I am not sure how much they cover for other desktops, but the GNOME critical path group should (hopefully) be enough to bring up a minimal Shell. On 30/04/13 01:49, Sandro Mani wrote: To make an example: gnome3: Minimal Install + mesa-dri-drivers xorg-x11-server-Xorg xorg-x11-drivers gnome-session-xsession gnome-shell telepathy-logger (and possibly control-center) Does this work for you well enough? # yum install @critical-path-gnome The gnome one is close, the kde one not: critpath contains kdelibs and kdm, but a minimal set would rather look like base + xorg + mesa + kdm kde-workspace dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts (here it might be a good idea to have the dejavu-sans-fonts as dependencies of kdm / kde-workspace?) Anyway, to draw a conclusion from this discussion, I guess that having a consistent way (read: consistent package / group name) of installing a minimal shell of Desktop Environment XY is not something many people miss, so for the interested I could post my minimal lists I've put together so far on a wiki page. (FWIW, I guess telepathy-logger should be a dependency of gnome-shell) I'll look into adding the telepathy-logger dep to gnome-shell. I guess something should have a dep on gnome-session-xsession as well, possibly also gnome-shell. Thanks! Hope this helps, Kalev -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 2013-05-01 01:37 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: # yum install @critical-path-gnome The gnome one is close, the kde one not: critpath contains kdelibs and kdm, but a minimal set would rather look like base + xorg + mesa + kdm kde-workspace dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts (here it might be a good idea to have the dejavu-sans-fonts as dependencies of kdm / kde-workspace?) Why only DejaVu (which along with Verdana and Vera have the significantly largest average x-height and width of common western web fonts)? What good are TTF/OTF fonts without Xorg? Mesa aka 3D? Bling I don't need, or want no matter how fast the system, and I force it globally with Option Composite Disable somewhere in /etc/X11/. If anything is going to require fonts it should be X if not base. On my systems the top priority fonts are the Droids, with nearly as much x-height as D/V/V, but not so fat. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 01.05.2013 02:08, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-05-01 01:37 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: # yum install @critical-path-gnome The gnome one is close, the kde one not: critpath contains kdelibs and kdm, but a minimal set would rather look like base + xorg + mesa + kdm kde-workspace dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts (here it might be a good idea to have the dejavu-sans-fonts as dependencies of kdm / kde-workspace?) Why only DejaVu (which along with Verdana and Vera have the significantly largest average x-height and width of common western web fonts)? Aren't the dejavu fonts those which are mapped to the standard sans, serif and monospace fonts? (could very well be wrong here). What good are TTF/OTF fonts without Xorg? Mesa aka 3D? Bling I don't need, or want no matter how fast the system, and I force it globally with Option Composite Disable somewhere in /etc/X11/. Well ok, the central part though is what follows the core graphics stack - those core packages are always the same, the sometimes more challenging part however is figuring out which DE specific packages are necessary for the basic shell. If anything is going to require fonts it should be X if not base. On my systems the top priority fonts are the Droids, with nearly as much x-height as D/V/V, but not so fat. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
Hi, From time to time, when setting up virtual machines for testing, I miss a fast way to install the minimal set of packages which allows me to boot into the desktop of a desktop environment. Currently, I do a minimal install, then install some core component, i.e. gnome-shell, and then hunt the logs to find out which other packages are missing. So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Advantages I see are: * Users can quickly set up test environments for various desktop environments * It would make side-by-side installation of desktop environments more pleasant * It might help considering enabling the yum option clean_requirements_on_remove=1 by default, since even if something goes wrong, the user will not end up with a missing desktop next time he or she reboots * It might help fixing some package dependencies Opinions? Thanks, Sandro -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
Hi, On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:07:58 +0200 Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, From time to time, when setting up virtual machines for testing, I miss a fast way to install the minimal set of packages which allows me to boot into the desktop of a desktop environment. Currently, I do a minimal install, then install some core component, i.e. gnome-shell, and then hunt the logs to find out which other packages are missing. Tried that a couple of times. Not a fan. Ever since, I rather install the XFCE spinoff as it has subjectively fewest unnecessary packages and go on from there. So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Either that, or I could imagine something like a Minimal-GUI spin. Not sure if the demand for it would be high enough to be worth the effort, though. Advantages I see are: * Users can quickly set up test environments for various desktop environments * It would make side-by-side installation of desktop environments more pleasant * It might help considering enabling the yum option clean_requirements_on_remove=1 by default, since even if something goes wrong, the user will not end up with a missing desktop next time he or she reboots * It might help fixing some package dependencies Opinions? Generally +1. TR -- Tomas Radej tra...@redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich [1] https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/comps.git/tree/comps-f19.xml.in -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Rich Mattes richmat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich Well, those groups are not exactly minimal. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/29/2013 10:55 AM, Rich Mattes wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com mailto:manisan...@gmail.com wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich [1] https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/comps.git/tree/comps-f19.xml.in If I understand the original request, his problem is that the groupinstall (and the comps listing for default entries) is still too heavyweight for him in some situations. He basically wants there to be a GNOME-minimal, KDE-minimal, etc. option in the installer to get JUST a working desktop shell and nothing else. No companion apps, etc. I'm inclined to feel that this is a bit of a niche problem, frankly. I'd like to see some more justification. In most cases, the default set of packages are there because they're assumed to be the set of things that most people would want installed if they're using that desktop. That said, if someone wanted to do the exploration, come up with those minimal package sets and propose them for inclusion to comps.xml (with the blessing of the related desktop SIG), I have no problems with it myself. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlF+i2UACgkQeiVVYja6o6OibACfQAPZR2/Ctd4b+zz7vvUAP5Bg U9kAnjDjmbIIBOJLeyMRKQiIHA6ZymL8 =utCS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Rich Mattes richmat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.comwrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich Well, those groups are not exactly minimal. I also really like the idea, because I just recently had this issue. I got a bug report, that one of my packages was not working properly under Gnome, but I didn't want to install the whole Gnome Desktop group, because this would be a real overkill for just checking the functionality of a program on a different desktop. So yes, I definitely would love more minimal desktop groups without all the apps, for which I most probably already have working alternatives. Johannes -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 2013-04-29 15:07 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: From time to time, when setting up virtual machines for testing, I miss a fast way to install the minimal set of packages which allows me to boot into the desktop of a desktop environment. Currently, I do a minimal install, then install some core component, i.e. gnome-shell, and then hunt the logs to find out which other packages are missing. So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Advantages I see are: * Users can quickly set up test environments for various desktop environments * It would make side-by-side installation of desktop environments more pleasant * It might help considering enabling the yum option clean_requirements_on_remove=1 by default, since even if something goes wrong, the user will not end up with a missing desktop next time he or she reboots * It might help fixing some package dependencies Opinions? Would save me lots of time. :-) I really don't like providing space for or installing and constantly updating packages that never get used on test installations. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/29/2013 10:55 AM, Rich Mattes wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com mailto:manisan...@gmail.com wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich [1] https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/comps.git/tree/comps-f19.xml.in If I understand the original request, his problem is that the groupinstall (and the comps listing for default entries) is still too heavyweight for him in some situations. He basically wants there to be a GNOME-minimal, KDE-minimal, etc. option in the installer to get JUST a working desktop shell and nothing else. No companion apps, etc. Correct I'm inclined to feel that this is a bit of a niche problem, frankly. I'd like to see some more justification. In most cases, the default set of packages are there because they're assumed to be the set of things that most people would want installed if they're using that desktop. For a initial install of a full OS for production purposes, sure, but for instance when installing another desktop side-by-side, I may not want yet another texteditor, browser, chat client, etc. And when setting up and updating my virtual machines, I really like to keep the system as slim as possible. But I also want to empathize the benefit of having a set of packages which define what is necessary for the desktop shell to start, the same way one knows that the minimal set is close to what is necessary to have a bootable system. That said, if someone wanted to do the exploration, come up with those minimal package sets and propose them for inclusion to comps.xml (with the blessing of the related desktop SIG), I have no problems with it myself. If there is enough interest, I'm happy to do some exploration. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlF+i2UACgkQeiVVYja6o6OibACfQAPZR2/Ctd4b+zz7vvUAP5Bg U9kAnjDjmbIIBOJLeyMRKQiIHA6ZymL8 =utCS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 04/29/2013 10:01 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: That said, if someone wanted to do the exploration, come up with those minimal package sets and propose them for inclusion to comps.xml (with the blessing of the related desktop SIG), I have no problems with it myself. To a certain extent, this has already been done. yum groupinfo gnome- desktop will list the mandatory packages for the group. (Although it's still a pretty hefty list.) AFAIK, there isn't any easy way to install just the mandatory packages in a group. One has to set group_package_types in yum.conf. -- Ian Pilcher arequip...@gmail.com Sometimes there's nothing left to do but crash and burn...or die trying. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
Le lundi 29 avril 2013 à 16:58 +0200, Sandro Mani a écrit : On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Rich Mattes richmat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich Well, those groups are not exactly minimal. But minimal is not well defined. We have tried that at Mageia, and what i can say : - no one agree on what minimal mean ( cause everybody want something more later, or there is people complaining that minimal is too minimal ) - having minimal and non-minimal just confuse users, which were the primary target of having groups in the first place. So that was not working that well. So before asking for that, you should define minimal in term of features ( ie, not in term of packages, cause that's already too low level and was the cause of misunderstanding, because people didn't define the use case others than I want to have this installed cause I said so ). IE, what do you expect to work and what shouldn't. Because in the end, if what you want is just kwin or gnome-shell, then just install them. Something we could do is to have a specific provide for each session, like yum install session(gnome) that would take what is needed to have gnome in *dm listed as a choice, and i think that would fit the definition of minimal. -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 29.04.2013 19:21, Michael Scherer wrote: Le lundi 29 avril 2013 à 16:58 +0200, Sandro Mani a écrit : On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Rich Mattes richmat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote: So, what about creating groups for the various desktop environments which pull in basesystem + xorg + mesa drivers + displaymanager + bare desktop shell? Do the groups already provided in comps.xml[1] not work for this task? Currently, one can use yum's groupinstall option to install the gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, mate, and cinnamon desktops and desktop environments. Rich Well, those groups are not exactly minimal. But minimal is not well defined. We have tried that at Mageia, and what i can say : - no one agree on what minimal mean ( cause everybody want something more later, or there is people complaining that minimal is too minimal ) I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be usable without the user installing additional packages he or she wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want to build up their setup from the bottom up. - having minimal and non-minimal just confuse users, which were the primary target of having groups in the first place. So that was not working that well. So before asking for that, you should define minimal in term of features ( ie, not in term of packages, cause that's already too low level and was the cause of misunderstanding, because people didn't define the use case others than I want to have this installed cause I said so ). IE, what do you expect to work and what shouldn't. Because in the end, if what you want is just kwin or gnome-shell, then just install them. Well, that's what I usually do, but it still takes lots of time to figure out various other packages (which might very well be dependency bugs in the packages) which are missing. And generally the installation of such packages does not include core components of the graphical stack as dependencies (xserver, drm, mesa). Indeed, on my not-overly-minimal KDE setup, the package-cleanup --leaves --all list includes mesa-dri-drivers. Something we could do is to have a specific provide for each session, like yum install session(gnome) that would take what is needed to have gnome in *dm listed as a choice, and i think that would fit the definition of minimal. As long as the session loads correctly, I perfectly agree! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 2013-04-29 19:49 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: Michael Scherer wrote: minimal is not well defined. I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be usable without the user installing additional packages he or she wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want to build up their setup from the bottom up. I agree. Maybe a better word than minimal would be foundational (dependent in the generic sense of the word). -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 07:49:23PM +0200, Sandro Mani wrote: I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be usable without the user installing additional packages he or she wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want to build up their setup from the bottom up. How about a lightweight desktop environment (it would just come with twm/fvwm or similar plus a terminal - I'm sure this exists already)? Does it need to be a minimal GNOME or KDE? Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines. Tiny program with many powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc. http://people.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 29.04.2013 20:42, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 07:49:23PM +0200, Sandro Mani wrote: I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be usable without the user installing additional packages he or she wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want to build up their setup from the bottom up. How about a lightweight desktop environment (it would just come with twm/fvwm or similar plus a terminal - I'm sure this exists already)? Does it need to be a minimal GNOME or KDE? Rich. I think that would correspond more or less to the basic-desktop group which already exists? But no, my idea would be to provide a foundation for a setup based on Desktop Environment XY. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
My minimal desktop is OpenBox with fbpanel and lightdm. I'm guessing there are others; openSUSE has a minimal desktop using a stripped IceWM. I've lived comfortably with WindowMaker and even twm. The key to minimizing a desktop IMHO is getting a lighter browser. It's really hard to use a machine without a browser these days, and both Firefox and Chromium are humongous. They've got great JavaScript engines but who needs all that other stuff? On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 07:49:23PM +0200, Sandro Mani wrote: I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be usable without the user installing additional packages he or she wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want to build up their setup from the bottom up. How about a lightweight desktop environment (it would just come with twm/fvwm or similar plus a terminal - I'm sure this exists already)? Does it need to be a minimal GNOME or KDE? Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines. Tiny program with many powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc. http://people.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb; Computational Journalism Publishers Workbench http://j.mp/CompJournBench/ Get out of the building - and don't come back till you have the order! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
On 29.04.2013 20:10, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-04-29 19:49 (GMT+0200) Sandro Mani composed: Michael Scherer wrote: minimal is not well defined. I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be usable without the user installing additional packages he or she wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want to build up their setup from the bottom up. I agree. Maybe a better word than minimal would be foundational (dependent in the generic sense of the word). To make an example: gnome3: Minimal Install + mesa-dri-drivers xorg-x11-server-Xorg xorg-x11-drivers gnome-session-xsession gnome-shell telepathy-logger (and possibly control-center) (FWIW, I guess telepathy-logger should be a dependency of gnome-shell) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups
Sandro Mani wrote: I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which allows the shell to load For kde, at least, that pretty much matches what 'kde-workspace' is. -- rex -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
