Re: Better fonts by default?
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 08:01:48PM -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > > "NG" == Neal Gompa writes: > > NG> Most of these fonts look like they are licensed appropriately, the > NG> only problem is the Ubuntu fonts, which have been noted to have a > NG> non-free license[3] (unless someone can get Canonical to fix it). > > I had a look at the license at https://www.ubuntu.com/legal/font-licence > and didn't see anything that strikes me as particularly non-free. > > The license has a forced renaming requirement for "Modified Versions > which are Substantially Changed", but that kind of thing hasn't rendered > something non-free in the past. The only thing which I've not seen > before is a forced renaming requirement which specifies the name to be > used: > > 3. Modified Versions which are not Substantially Changed must be renamed >to both >1. retain the name of the Original Version and >2. add additional naming elements to distinguish the Modified Version > from the Original Version. The name of such Modified Versions must be > the name of the Original Version, with "derivative X" where X > represents the name of the new work, appended to that name. > > So maybe that's an issue. The font doesn't appear in our list of > licenses (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:Main#Font_Licenses) > so I guess it wouldn't hurt to ping the legal list, which I'll do now. The previous attempt is here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=961642 -- Tomasz Torcz ,,(...) today's high-end is tomorrow's embedded processor.'' xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl -- Mitchell Blank on LKML ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
> "NG" == Neal Gompa writes: NG> Most of these fonts look like they are licensed appropriately, the NG> only problem is the Ubuntu fonts, which have been noted to have a NG> non-free license[3] (unless someone can get Canonical to fix it). I had a look at the license at https://www.ubuntu.com/legal/font-licence and didn't see anything that strikes me as particularly non-free. The license has a forced renaming requirement for "Modified Versions which are Substantially Changed", but that kind of thing hasn't rendered something non-free in the past. The only thing which I've not seen before is a forced renaming requirement which specifies the name to be used: 3. Modified Versions which are not Substantially Changed must be renamed to both 1. retain the name of the Original Version and 2. add additional naming elements to distinguish the Modified Version from the Original Version. The name of such Modified Versions must be the name of the Original Version, with "derivative X" where X represents the name of the new work, appended to that name. So maybe that's an issue. The font doesn't appear in our list of licenses (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:Main#Font_Licenses) so I guess it wouldn't hurt to ping the legal list, which I'll do now. - J< ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
That would be untrue. https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/freetype/freetype2.git/tree/src/smooth/ftsmooth.c?h=VER-2-8-1#n357 ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Ahmad Samir wrote: > I've been using Harmony since 2.8.1, compiled locally. I didn't notice > the ftsmooth patch in 2.9, thanks for the hint, I'll look into that. > Although I have to saw I didn't notice any drastic changes between 2.8.1 > and 2.9 in Fedora, but I'll test disabling that patch all the same. 2.8.1 did not have Harmony, unless you backported it. It is new in 2.9. Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On 11/11/2018 01:10 PM, Nikolaus Waxweiler wrote: > All I remember saying is that subpixel rendering is > not essential to getting nicely rendered fonts, as you can see in Qt5: > > https://i.postimg.cc/t4XnfGzt/Bildschirmfoto-vom-2018-11-11-11-45-41.png > https://i.postimg.cc/c4GnRngz/Bildschirmfoto-vom-2018-11-11-11-46-28.png This is not an example of good rendering IMHO. It looks like the standard blurry grayscale you get on a Mac. Subpixel rendering (rgb, slight hinting, slight filtering) would improve this a lot. > Download the original PNGs and compare đ subpixel rendering (here with > the light LCD filter) can improve contrast a bit, but grayscale looks > pretty good, too. Provided you like the overall smooth look of light > hinting. Any links for the subpixel variants? -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On 12/11/2018 03:35, Kevin Kofler wrote: Ahmad Samir wrote: Try setting the lcdfilter in your local fonts.conf ( ~/.config/fontconfing/fonts.conf); or better yet, try building freetype with the "spr" patch disabled. This way freetype will use Harmony (available since freetype 2.8.1 [2]), a technique that offers LCD rendering using a different way than ClearType. I find it works well, for me anyway. If you want Harmony, you also have to remove the freetype-2.9-ftsmooth.patch that disables it. Disabling only the spr patch will give you only grayscale anti-aliasing. Kevin Kofler I've been using Harmony since 2.8.1, compiled locally. I didn't notice the ftsmooth patch in 2.9, thanks for the hint, I'll look into that. Although I have to saw I didn't notice any drastic changes between 2.8.1 and 2.9 in Fedora, but I'll test disabling that patch all the same. -- Ahmad Samir ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Ahmad Samir wrote: > Try setting the lcdfilter in your local fonts.conf ( > ~/.config/fontconfing/fonts.conf); or better yet, try building freetype > with the "spr" patch disabled. This way freetype will use Harmony > (available since freetype 2.8.1 [2]), a technique that offers LCD > rendering using a different way than ClearType. I find it works well, > for me anyway. If you want Harmony, you also have to remove the freetype-2.9-ftsmooth.patch that disables it. Disabling only the spr patch will give you only grayscale anti-aliasing. Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On 11/11/2018 19:31, Ahmad Samir wrote: On 11/11/2018 19:23, Tom Hughes wrote: [] That's interesting because I'm seeing the same thing in F29 but with vertical edges on a non-rotated display! I assumed it was related to subpixel antialiasing being enabled but turning that off doesn't seem to help. I'd say it looks more blueish than green, and it only seems to happen at certain sizes. That sounds/looks like subpixel rendering with the lcddefault lcd filter. AIUI on F29, freetype-2.9.1-5 enabled subpixel rendering at build time[1]. Try setting the lcdfilter in your local fonts.conf ( ~/.config/fontconfing/fonts.conf); or better yet, try building freetype with the "spr" patch disabled. This way freetype will use Harmony (available since freetype 2.8.1 [2]), a technique that offers LCD rendering using a different way than ClearType. I find it works well, for me anyway. I can confirm that linking /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/11-lcdfilter-default.conf into the active configuration in /etc/fonts/conf.d and restarting firefox seems to have fixed the problem for me on web pages that were showing the problem before. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On 11/11/2018 19:23, Tom Hughes wrote: [] That's interesting because I'm seeing the same thing in F29 but with vertical edges on a non-rotated display! I assumed it was related to subpixel antialiasing being enabled but turning that off doesn't seem to help. I'd say it looks more blueish than green, and it only seems to happen at certain sizes. Tom That sounds/looks like subpixel rendering with the lcddefault lcd filter. AIUI on F29, freetype-2.9.1-5 enabled subpixel rendering at build time[1]. Try setting the lcdfilter in your local fonts.conf ( ~/.config/fontconfing/fonts.conf); or better yet, try building freetype with the "spr" patch disabled. This way freetype will use Harmony (available since freetype 2.8.1 [2]), a technique that offers LCD rendering using a different way than ClearType. I find it works well, for me anyway. (Sorry for the noise if you already know all that :)). [1]https://src.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/freetype.git/commit/?h=f29&id=3f1c63550795a1ce04006b0e8f2daae6ca0ec26a [2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/freetype/files/freetype2/2.8.1/ -- Ahmad Samir ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Nikolaus Waxweiler wrote: > 2. The rest seems to be mostly boilerplate font replacements? Standard > stuff like Arial is already covered by fontconfig/Fedora defaults, other > replacements like Arial Black are not really replacements, but wholesale > changes. A replacement for a font family should be a metrically > compatible drop-in, as e.g. PDF viewers will use the same information > (not all PDF generators embed fonts when they should...). If the > replacement works for your use-case, good, but I would be uncomfortable > aliasing Consolas to Fira Mono distro-wide. Even if we accept the idea of close-looking but not metrically compatible replacements (I think it is better than nothing, where you get the default font that is neither), the list contains some errors (e.g., OpenSymbol is NOT a valid replacement for Wingdings, the Wingdings font from WINE (wine-wingdings-fonts-system) is) and controversial choices, so it would have to be double-checked manually. (E.g., I think the closest replacement for Verdana is probably DejaVu Sans, not Noto Sans. The choices for the cursive and fantasy families are also strange. In the browser I use (Falkon), I configured Grand Hotel as cursive and Comic Neue as fantasy (Komika Text would also do the job, I guess, but Comic Neue is already packaged), whereas silenc3r's list has Komika Text as cursive (!) and the heavy Passion One as fantasy.) > It's also technically (mostly) impossible because Windows and macOS do > correct font rendering (linear alpha blending and gamma correction to > various degrees) which on X11/Wayland currently only Qt5 does (see > screenshots above). Nothing you can do anywhere else in stack weights > that up. Does it really? The discussion in: https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-41590 sounds like they actually reverted the gamma to 1.0 on X11 because of a chicken&egg problem (FreeType doesn't want to enable stem darkening by default because of broken gamma settings in toolkits, and Qt cannot set a better gamma because stem darkening is not enabled). Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sun, 2018-11-11 at 17:23 +, Tom Hughes wrote: > On 11/11/2018 17:16, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 20:36 -0600, Martin Jackson wrote: > > > Hello everyone, and thanks to one and all for a remarkable distribution! > > > > > > With the coverage of the freeworld fontconfig enhancements, I wonder if > > > some of the configuration settings currently implemented in > > > https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts will be considered as > > > defaults? > > > > BTW, slightly off topic, but since we're talking about fonts - > > something went really weird for me in Rawhide subpixel stuff lately. I > > have my displays rotated 90 degrees, so I have vRGB set as the subpixel > > ordering, but since some recent update, it seems like it's not working > > properly, as I can see obvious colors in text that shouldn't be > > colored, especially things like underscores (which basically just look > > straight-up green). > > That's interesting because I'm seeing the same thing in F29 but with > vertical edges on a non-rotated display! Aha, so maybe it's just...generally...broken :P > I assumed it was related to subpixel antialiasing being enabled but > turning that off doesn't seem to help. It seemed to change things a bit for me. Note that the changes don't always take effect immediately in all apps, I don't think - you may have to quit and restart, or at least cause the contents of the app window to change somehow. > I'd say it looks more blueish than green, and it only seems to happen > at certain sizes. For me it depends on the character and yeah, the colors can vary. Green underscores is just the most really obvious one. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On 11/11/2018 17:16, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 20:36 -0600, Martin Jackson wrote: Hello everyone, and thanks to one and all for a remarkable distribution! With the coverage of the freeworld fontconfig enhancements, I wonder if some of the configuration settings currently implemented in https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts will be considered as defaults? BTW, slightly off topic, but since we're talking about fonts - something went really weird for me in Rawhide subpixel stuff lately. I have my displays rotated 90 degrees, so I have vRGB set as the subpixel ordering, but since some recent update, it seems like it's not working properly, as I can see obvious colors in text that shouldn't be colored, especially things like underscores (which basically just look straight-up green). That's interesting because I'm seeing the same thing in F29 but with vertical edges on a non-rotated display! I assumed it was related to subpixel antialiasing being enabled but turning that off doesn't seem to help. I'd say it looks more blueish than green, and it only seems to happen at certain sizes. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 20:36 -0600, Martin Jackson wrote: > Hello everyone, and thanks to one and all for a remarkable distribution! > > With the coverage of the freeworld fontconfig enhancements, I wonder if > some of the configuration settings currently implemented in > https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts will be considered as > defaults? BTW, slightly off topic, but since we're talking about fonts - something went really weird for me in Rawhide subpixel stuff lately. I have my displays rotated 90 degrees, so I have vRGB set as the subpixel ordering, but since some recent update, it seems like it's not working properly, as I can see obvious colors in text that shouldn't be colored, especially things like underscores (which basically just look straight-up green). Anyone else seen that? I'll try and find some time to dig into it, but I've been spending all my time lately trying to fix up Rawhide in more important ways... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Le dimanche 11 novembre 2018 Ă 12:10 +, Nikolaus Waxweiler a Ă©crit : > > It's also technically (mostly) impossible because Windows and macOS do > correct font rendering (linear alpha blending and gamma correction to > various degrees) which on X11/Wayland currently only Qt5 does (see > screenshots above). Nice work on QTâs part, congratulations to everyone who made this happen. Itâs been known for years gamma correction was needed for good screen text rendering. I hope other GUI toolkits follow suit quickly. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Le samedi 10 novembre 2018 Ă 17:57 -0500, Neal Gompa a Ă©crit : > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:43 PM wrote: > It's a lot less noticeable if > you're lucky enough to have a 4K display (which I do not). BTW, those have become pretty cheap last time I looked, some of them are cheaper than many FHD screens, and anything between FHD and UHD will be more expensive. Having everyone standardise on specific resolutions has nice price scaling effects. Of course, entry-level UHD/4K screens wonât have the low-latency properties gamers prefer, their color profile will suck â forget about doing serious photo/video work on them. You want a screen with high scores everywhere you have to pay a pretty penny for it. But, to pore on text all day round and forget about text rendering artifacts they're prefect. -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
I had a quick look at fedora-better-fonts and found this: 1. The defaults in https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts/blob/master/fontconfig-enhanced-defaults/19-enhanced-defaults.conf are redundant. Turning off the autohinter and selecting hintslight... will turn it back on :D The LCD filter and subpixel order can be selected by existing conf files inf fontconfig's conf.avail folder already. 2. The rest seems to be mostly boilerplate font replacements? Standard stuff like Arial is already covered by fontconfig/Fedora defaults, other replacements like Arial Black are not really replacements, but wholesale changes. A replacement for a font family should be a metrically compatible drop-in, as e.g. PDF viewers will use the same information (not all PDF generators embed fonts when they should...). If the replacement works for your use-case, good, but I would be uncomfortable aliasing Consolas to Fira Mono distro-wide. > For example, the gschema changes should go to the gnome-settings-daemon project, where it is probably going to run up against the fact that (I believe) Nikolaus prefers grayscale hinting. What? đ Do note that I never touched GNOME settings, the grayscale default comes from the time where subpixel rendering was guarded by ClearType patents. All I remember saying is that subpixel rendering is not essential to getting nicely rendered fonts, as you can see in Qt5: https://i.postimg.cc/t4XnfGzt/Bildschirmfoto-vom-2018-11-11-11-45-41.png https://i.postimg.cc/c4GnRngz/Bildschirmfoto-vom-2018-11-11-11-46-28.png Download the original PNGs and compare đ subpixel rendering (here with the light LCD filter) can improve contrast a bit, but grayscale looks pretty good, too. Provided you like the overall smooth look of light hinting. > Unfortunately, a lot of text on the web renders really poorly without rgba subpixel rendering (aka ClearType). It's a lot less noticeable if you're lucky enough to have a 4K display (which I do not). But having text look squishy and spaced incorrectly does not make for enjoyable reading... Subpixel rendering shouldn't modify squishiness or spacing, just add some color to boring text. Can you send some screenshots my way? > Can the sub pixel renderer actually know the actual subpixels on the screen or is some pattern just assumed? No, you have to tell FreeType what to render. By default it assumes RGB subpixels, but you can change that in fontconfig to BGR or their vertical cousins. > Thatâs a gross over simplification ârender fonts like windowsâ has long been impossible for legal reasons, but ârender fonts like windowsâ has never been an universal standard the majority of our users subscribe to. It's also technically (mostly) impossible because Windows and macOS do correct font rendering (linear alpha blending and gamma correction to various degrees) which on X11/Wayland currently only Qt5 does (see screenshots above). Nothing you can do anywhere else in stack weights that up. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Le samedi 10 novembre 2018 Ă 17:03 -0500, Neal Gompa a Ă©crit : Hi > Most of the defaults upstream are largely due to legal issues that are > no longer applicable. Thatâs a gross over simplification ârender fonts like windowsâ has long been impossible for legal reasons, but ârender fonts like windowsâ has never been an universal standard the majority of our users subscribe to. You can easily find on the internet decades of rants where windows users state their font rendering is best and others suck, OSX users state the reverse and Linux users are somewhere in the middle (because freetype allows many different rendering styles). Add the Adobe style of rendering that Adobe contributed to the CFF freetype engine some years past to the list. Also, add to the list the fact ârender fonts like windowsâ is not a single style, Microsoft provides several rendering engines of various ages, some devel stack specific, so when people say ârender fonts like windowsâ that means ârender fonts like my current windows system and not like other windows systemsâ. Finally, add to the fact that baring a HiDPI screen, all kinds of font renderings are basically heuristic base and will work better on some fonts and screen resolutions and fail catastrophically on others. So yes there has always been a vocal user minority that asked for our rendering to move to windows style, because they are former windows users accustomed to this style. They've always been told most users did not share their preferences and anyway windows-style rendering was legally encumbered. Since most of them can not imagine others may not share their preferences they concluded it was not the default for legal reasons. But that has never been the only (or principal) reason. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Le samedi 10 novembre 2018 Ă 16:43 -0600, mcatanz...@gnome.org a Ă©crit : > > > > And Fedora is the only distribution I know of > > that actually actively maintains a very large fontconfig > > configuration > > for every single font. > > I wasn't aware of this? It's not large, fontconfig xml syntax is verbose so the resulting files are bulky, but for the average font you have three rules max (the generic associated to the font, in direct and reverse mapping, and the list of fonts this font can substitute for). Having the font packager identify those scales better than asking Akira to write rules for every single font we package in the fontconfig package itself (not to mention, that would require updating the fontconfig package on every user system every time a font is added to the distro). And when upstream is agreeable (many are not) the files are pushed upstream. Of course for huge font families split over lots of files the rules can get a lot more complex. Thereâs at most a handful of those in the distro. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 at 03:53, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Neal Gompa wrote: > > Unfortunately, a lot of text on the web renders really poorly without > > rgba subpixel rendering (aka ClearType). It's a lot less noticeable if > > you're lucky enough to have a 4K display (which I do not). > > I have a 1280Ă1024 LCD and I think subpixel rendering looks a lot sharper > than grayscale one. I cannot notice issues such as: > Can the sub pixel renderer actually know the actual subpixels on the screen or is some pattern just assumed? > > But having text look squishy and spaced incorrectly does not make for > > enjoyable reading... > > here, and I don't see how that is related to using subpixel rendering. > That > sounds more like a hinting issue. > > Kevin Kofler > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 9:53 PM Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Neal Gompa wrote: > > Unfortunately, a lot of text on the web renders really poorly without > > rgba subpixel rendering (aka ClearType). It's a lot less noticeable if > > you're lucky enough to have a 4K display (which I do not). > > I have a 1280Ă1024 LCD and I think subpixel rendering looks a lot sharper > than grayscale one. I cannot notice issues such as: > > > But having text look squishy and spaced incorrectly does not make for > > enjoyable reading... > > here, and I don't see how that is related to using subpixel rendering. That > sounds more like a hinting issue. > It probably is. But blurriness vs sharpness in rendering is a subpixel rendering thing, while hinting issues are usually fontconfig things. -- çćźăŻăă€ăäžă€ïŒ/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Neal Gompa wrote: > Unfortunately, a lot of text on the web renders really poorly without > rgba subpixel rendering (aka ClearType). It's a lot less noticeable if > you're lucky enough to have a 4K display (which I do not). I have a 1280Ă1024 LCD and I think subpixel rendering looks a lot sharper than grayscale one. I cannot notice issues such as: > But having text look squishy and spaced incorrectly does not make for > enjoyable reading... here, and I don't see how that is related to using subpixel rendering. That sounds more like a hinting issue. Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:43 PM wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > Most of the defaults upstream are largely due to legal issues that are no > longer applicable. > > > As of very recently, Marik did make one change: subpixel rendering is now > enabled by default in Fedora's freetype package (if you have the latest F29 > updates) at build time, whereas it's still disabled by default upstream. But > it remains disabled at runtime. But I don't think that's due to legal > reasons. I think it's just because that's what Nikolaus prefers. He's an > expert on font rendering, and I'm not, so you'd have to ask him. > I'm aware of the subpixel rendering enablement, as I tested it and sent a pull request to actually fix the enablement[1]. Unfortunately, a lot of text on the web renders really poorly without rgba subpixel rendering (aka ClearType). It's a lot less noticeable if you're lucky enough to have a 4K display (which I do not). But having text look squishy and spaced incorrectly does not make for enjoyable reading... [1]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/freetype/pull-request/1 > Another difference is that we disable bitmap fonts at the fontconfig level, > because it's insane not to. That really ought to be changed upstream. > > And Fedora is the only distribution I know of > > that actually actively maintains a very large fontconfig configuration for > every single font. > > > I wasn't aware of this? > We require every font packaged in Fedora to have fontconfig configuration. I know this because I learned about it when I packaged a font a while ago[2]. Most fonts probably have similarly trivial fontconfig config files, but there are some that have more complex ones. [2]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/d-din-fonts -- çćźăŻăă€ăäžă€ïŒ/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: Most of the defaults upstream are largely due to legal issues that are no longer applicable. As of very recently, Marik did make one change: subpixel rendering is now enabled by default in Fedora's freetype package (if you have the latest F29 updates) at build time, whereas it's still disabled by default upstream. But it remains disabled at runtime. But I don't think that's due to legal reasons. I think it's just because that's what Nikolaus prefers. He's an expert on font rendering, and I'm not, so you'd have to ask him. Another difference is that we disable bitmap fonts at the fontconfig level, because it's insane not to. That really ought to be changed upstream. And Fedora is the only distribution I know of that actually actively maintains a very large fontconfig configuration for every single font. I wasn't aware of this? Michael ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 2:50 PM wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > Does anyone actually take care of our fonts stuff anymore? > > > Off the top of my head, there's Akira Tagoh covering fontconfig both upstream > and downstream, Marek Kasik covering freetype downstream, and Nikolaus > Waxweiler handling freetype upstream, Cantarell upstream, and the GNOME > settings. > > It seems unlikely to me that any downstream customizations would be accepted > directly into Fedora, since we try to stick very close to upstream defaults. > So please, send any desired improvements upstream. > > For example, the gschema changes should go to the gnome-settings-daemon > project, where it is probably going to run up against the fact that (I > believe) Nikolaus prefers grayscale hinting. I'm sure he'd be happy to > provide a rationale for why rgba is not default. Then the fontconfig changes > should be submitted to the fontconfig project. The author of the changes > should again be prepared to argue why the changes should become defaults. I > don't see why upstream would reject the changes if they are good. > > At the end of the day, font settings are highly subjective, so I'm pretty > skeptical of anything called "fedora-enhanced-defaults" or > "fedora-better-fonts". They don't look any better or worse to me. They just > look different. So I'm inclined to trust the expertise of the people > maintaining the font packages, who've probably not set the defaults as they > are arbitrarily > Most of the defaults upstream are largely due to legal issues that are no longer applicable. And Fedora is the only distribution I know of that actually actively maintains a very large fontconfig configuration for every single font. I *know* we deviate from "upstream" in some regards because our font configuration isn't something they ship. In addition, until Fedora 29, we didn't even have Liberation 2.0 fonts in the distribution, and those fonts were produced by Red Hat years ago (and included in most other distributions). None of what you said should imply we should abdicate our responsibility to actively improve how our distribution works. That said, I would certainly like to see our maintainers and experts in this weigh in and examine what we can do to include these improvements across the board, which is why I've CC'd our freetype and fontconfig maintainers to ask them to weigh in. -- çćźăŻăă€ăäžă€ïŒ/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: Does anyone actually take care of our fonts stuff anymore? Off the top of my head, there's Akira Tagoh covering fontconfig both upstream and downstream, Marek Kasik covering freetype downstream, and Nikolaus Waxweiler handling freetype upstream, Cantarell upstream, and the GNOME settings. It seems unlikely to me that any downstream customizations would be accepted directly into Fedora, since we try to stick very close to upstream defaults. So please, send any desired improvements upstream. For example, the gschema changes should go to the gnome-settings-daemon project, where it is probably going to run up against the fact that (I believe) Nikolaus prefers grayscale hinting. I'm sure he'd be happy to provide a rationale for why rgba is not default. Then the fontconfig changes should be submitted to the fontconfig project. The author of the changes should again be prepared to argue why the changes should become defaults. I don't see why upstream would reject the changes if they are good. At the end of the day, font settings are highly subjective, so I'm pretty skeptical of anything called "fedora-enhanced-defaults" or "fedora-better-fonts". They don't look any better or worse to me. They just look different. So I'm inclined to trust the expertise of the people maintaining the font packages, who've probably not set the defaults as they are arbitrarily Michael ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 7:58 AM Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le vendredi 09 novembre 2018 Ă 20:36 -0600, Martin Jackson a Ă©crit : > > Hello everyone, and thanks to one and all for a remarkable > > distribution! > > > > With the coverage of the freeworld fontconfig enhancements, I wonder > > if > > some of the configuration settings currently implemented in > > https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts will be considered as > > defaults? > > > > A lot of this are just individual font packages that just wait for > someone to pick up and maintain within Fedora. It does not depend on any > fontconfig change > There is some fontconfig changes[1][2]. Most of these fonts look like they are licensed appropriately, the only problem is the Ubuntu fonts, which have been noted to have a non-free license[3] (unless someone can get Canonical to fix it). In theory, we have a Fonts SIG[4], but it seems to be defunct. Does anyone actually take care of our fonts stuff anymore? [1]: https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts/tree/master/fontconfig-enhanced-defaults [2]: https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts/tree/master/fontconfig-font-replacements [3]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ubuntu_fonts [4]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Fonts_SIG -- çćźăŻăă€ăäžă€ïŒ/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better fonts by default?
Le vendredi 09 novembre 2018 Ă 20:36 -0600, Martin Jackson a Ă©crit : > Hello everyone, and thanks to one and all for a remarkable > distribution! > > With the coverage of the freeworld fontconfig enhancements, I wonder > if > some of the configuration settings currently implemented in > https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts will be considered as > defaults? > A lot of this are just individual font packages that just wait for someone to pick up and maintain within Fedora. It does not depend on any fontconfig change Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Better fonts by default?
Hello everyone, and thanks to one and all for a remarkable distribution! With the coverage of the freeworld fontconfig enhancements, I wonder if some of the configuration settings currently implemented in https://github.com/silenc3r/fedora-better-fonts will be considered as defaults? Thanks, Marty ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
