Re: XO-3 super-o-fficial

2009-12-27 Thread NoiseEHC


 Actually, I would argue that an operating system that doesn't
 natively host its development tools is not appropriate for OLPC's
 target audience.

Self hosting is not an absolute requirement. You just have traded an 
existing, usable developer environment (like Eclipse) for the 
possibility of children to modify all the code. BTW the children cannot 
even modify all the code because they cannot compile the Linux kernel or 
Python itself for example. So you effectively just defined the code 
modification treeshold a little bit lower than is possible in Android. 
The price you pay for the resulting scripting language choice is 
excessive memory consumption, slow execution and painful developer 
experience. Here is a cost-benefit analysis from an outsider (me):

1. Because all of Etoys, Turtle Art, Scratch and JavaScript/HTML codes 
are modifiable by children, there is not too much to win by having a 
modifiable shell. Simply I do not get why would it be so good to let 
children mess with the Journal or the Shell (Frame) code. For looking 
into the inner workings of some code there are a lot of other possibilities.
2. What you do not seem to understand (probably because you are all 
experienced Python/GTK programmers) is that programming in Python/PyGTK 
is just painful. Especially in Develop. With one eye looking to the code 
and with the other looking at the documentation of Python, the 
documentation of PyGTK, the third reads the documentation of GTK (for 
the missing parts), the fourth looks at the Log Viewer since there is no 
other debuggers... Contrast this with the simple fact that when I type 
a dot in Eclipse then magically it shows me all the possible members and 
methods with parameters and documentation. Now that is what I call 
discoverability, sorry but Python does not cut it. Since I did not see 
any documentation shipped on the XO machines I cannot even imagine how 
will those children understand code without an internet connection... 
What is sure that I have not seen any activities made by children yet.
3. You could invest an enormous amount of work into making Sugar a less 
painful development environment (especially on a native host) but what 
is the point? When you will have a working IDE with a working debugger 
and a working profiler the world will have already moved farther ahead 
of you. Just to give you a little perspective: the last time I used Java 
was more than 10 years ago and I have never used Eclipse. However when I 
have downloaded Eclipse and the Android SDK I could run, debug and 
modify my first application in 10 minutes. All this is maintained by 
paid OHA member employees and you know OLPC  Sugarlabs do not have the 
same resources combined to catch up with that.

So from my viewpoint native hosting is not an absolute requirement but 
just a tradeoff does not worth making.

ps:
Note that I am not telling you to drop everything and start rewrite 
Sugar in Java (because it would be kinda stupid) but dismissing a 
convergence plan with a simple O RLY? seems a little bit short sighted 
to me.



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Re: Marvell 88W8388 USB Development Dongles

2009-12-27 Thread John Watlington

We don't sell them, but I can send you a couple.
Please send a mailing address.

Cheers,
wad

On Dec 26, 2009, at 11:29 AM, vbx dev wrote:

 OLPC XO-1 uses the Marvell 88W8388 USB wireless adapter. I want to
 contribute to the development of the libertas/libertas-tf driver for
 this wireless adapter.

 Could I buy a few 88W8388 USB development dongles from OLPC to get
 started? Thanks.
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread John Gilmore
 I would argue that an operating system that doesn't
 natively host its development tools is not appropriate for OLPC's
 target audience.

Does the XO-1 host its own development tools?  I don't think anyone
has ever rebuilt the system from source code on an XO-1.  I don't even
know anyone outside the OLPC office who *has* the source code for an
XO-1 software release.  (At least Fedora and Ubuntu and Debian cut a
source release to match each of their binary releases, and hundreds
or thousands of people download it.)

Could the XO-1.5 host its own development tools?  More likely, but
again I don't think anyone ever has.  Perhaps someone rebuilt a few
packages from source, natively, while debugging.  Must have been
someone with great Internet access to download compilers and such, and
great knowledge of where to *find* the source code in the wilds of the
Internet.  Still that's a step forward.

Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run the
X Window System?  Since X already runs on most of the hardware that
Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would benefit
the whole Android community.

John
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread Michael Stone
 Does the XO-1 host its own development tools?  

For all practical purposes, it does not.

First, as you have noted, it takes quite a bit of bandwidth to install the
toolchain and development headers. (And you have to know what they're called.)

Second, to get anything done with C, you really need easy access to the man
pages and you need to know quite a bit about how the system is put together.

Third, you quickly run out of disk space when you try to compile things
locally. I actually got as far as linking vmlinux before I ran out of space on
my on-XO kernel compile. (Nevermind how long it took to get that far with no
swap space! :)

 I don't think anyone has ever rebuilt the system from source code on an XO-1.
 I don't even know anyone outside the OLPC office who *has* the source code for
 an XO-1 software release.  

The source is available from Fedora CVS and from mock.laptop.org.

Michael
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Ticket 8104

2009-12-27 Thread James Cameron
On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 11:37:10AM -0200, Cecilia Abalde wrote:
 I download the patch, then run rpm-ivh Name patch but there is a problem 
 with
 the files:
 file / etc / NetworkManager / dispatcher.d / mpp.py from install of
 NetworkManager-0.6.5-0.14.svn3246.olpc3.i386 conflicts with file from package
 NetworkManager-0.6.5-0.11.svn3246.olpc3.i386
 
 XO NetworkManager: NetworkManager-0.6.5-0.11.svn3246.olpc3.i386
 
 Any ideas ???

I don't understand what you are trying to achieve.  If you are trying to
install a later version of the package, then rpm -i is not correct
usage, given that you already have a package of the same name installed.
You should use rpm -u if you wish to replace the existing package.

-- 
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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread NoiseEHC

 Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run the
 X Window System?  Since X already runs on most of the hardware that
 Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would benefit
 the whole Android community.
   
Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes an enormous amount of 
memory, so it is out of the question at least for now. However what I do 
not get is why would it be good for an education project if it would be 
self hosting at all? As I see an education project's main goal is to 
support creating quality educational resources (like curricula) cheaply, 
is not it?
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Re: [Testing] Some testing notes for OS10 for the XO-1

2009-12-27 Thread Bill Coderre
On Dec 11, 2009, at 10:55 AM, Steven M. Parrish wrote:If you are going to try out OS10 for the XO-1 here are a few things that need testing.I have a G1G1 XO-1. I upgraded my firmware to q2e41, then used the nand-flash method to install OS10. (Earlier attempts were not so fruitful, but I eventually figured out how to format the usb thumbdrive as FAT16 in Mac OS X "Snow Leopard," and that made things much better.)Then I did "yum update" and let it update whatever it wanted. Then I did the Software Update control panel. Then I did the testing below.Here's the "about" after all of this update fever:Serial CSN74903BFCBuild: OLPC release 11 (Leonidas)Sugar: 0.84.2Firmware Q2E41Wireless Firmware: 5.110.22.p23Does it boot consistently into Sugar? Gnome?I haven't used Gnome. It seems to boot reliably into Sugar.Any strange lockups? If so what were you doing?"Record" crashes on launch./usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/sugar/util.py:25: DeprecationWarning:
the sha module is deprecated; use the hashlib module instead
 import sha
** (sugar-activity:2016): DEBUG: Got client ID
1089617bd462e9ea121261511845891150018160001
** (sugar-activity:2016): DEBUG: Setting initial properties
1261511845.624955 WARNING root: No gtk.AccelGroup in the top level window.
1261511845.654305 WARNING root: No gtk.AccelGroup in the top level window.
** (sugar-activity:2016): DEBUG: Received SaveYourself(SmSaveLocal,
!Shutdown, SmInteractStyleNone, !Fast) in state idle
** (sugar-activity:2016): DEBUG: Sending SaveYourselfDone(True) for
initial SaveYourself
** (sugar-activity:2016): DEBUG: Received SaveComplete message in
state save-yourself-done

Gdk-ERROR **: The program 'sugar-activity' received an X Window System error.
This probably reflects a bug in the program.
The error was 'BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)'.
 (Details: serial 62 error_code 11 request_code 131 minor_code 19)
 (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
  that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
  To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
  option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
  backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error() function.)
aborting...
I think I tried all the activities that came with, and they all work pretty well except for Record. Some have visual aberrations in the "Activity"/"Edit" etc tabs. Also, many do not show the "Stop Sign" icon, but show a weensy menu instead.Can you upgrade packages using "yum update" from the command line?sudo, then yum update succeeded well.Does sound work?Yes, quite well.Can you suspend? Does it wake up?Closing lid to sleep, opening lid to wake seems to work fine, with the exception of the trackpad. Once any sleep activity happens, the trackpad no longer causes the pointer to move. I am not sure if trackpad activity can wake the computer, but it certainly cannot move the pointer.I did see some odd behavior when I just left it sitting there -- The screen would dim after a while, and then the screen would brighten back up, as if it were trying to go to sleep but something was waking it up.Let me know what else I can do to help.bc___
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Ticket 8104

2009-12-27 Thread James Cameron
Sorry, that's rpm -U not rpm -u.

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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: Android, OLPC, and native hosting

2009-12-27 Thread John Watlington

On Dec 27, 2009, at 5:52 PM, NoiseEHC wrote:


 Does Android not host its development tools because it doesn't run  
 the
 X Window System?  Since X already runs on most of the hardware that
 Android does, that wouldn't be too hard to remedy -- and would  
 benefit
 the whole Android community.

 Actually, no. The .class - .dex compiler consumes an enormous  
 amount of
 memory, so it is out of the question at least for now.

How much is enormous ?  A laptop/tablet is likely to have more than
a smartphone...

 However what I do not get is why would it be good for an education  
 project if it would be
 self hosting at all? As I see an education project's main goal is to
 support creating quality educational resources (like curricula)  
 cheaply,
 is not it?

You can't deny kids the ability to create their own activities  
(applications, whatever)
Pippy is an example of a simple way to introduce kids to activity  
programming in
python, allowing them to easily create and share activities.

I wasn't really suggesting that mobile device users recompile their  
entire operating
system, although you can't deny that an XO-1.5 is well capable of  
doing so.

Cheers,
wad

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