Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Jun 21, 2014 12:26 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: what you or i prefer don't matter Sure it does. Otherwise you would not insist that your perspective is the only right one and everyone else who has a different perspective is always wrong in any such discussion. the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just react on the new updates are available in the GUI I have been dealing with user questions in Fedora for around 10 years now and I would disagree with that assertion. We never really managed to attract a large crowd of regular consumers to Fedora who preferred the graphical interfaces for updates and the interfaces have been pretty poor despite several revisions (up2date, pup, gpk-update etc). It might be change with better software managers now but I suspect that most of our regular users are in fact using the command line for updates at this point. Rahul Now that the gui updater *requires* a reboot, I don't even use the gui when I get the system notification (which I used to do unless I needed to do something special). Langdon -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 06/20/2014 09:10 AM, Jan Zelený wrote: Dnf doesn't know anything about your network connection and I'm not even sure it should ... I can imagine a high level orchestration tool for the entire system to do stuff like this but that's out of our scope. I just filed NetworkManager RFE RFE: add attribute limited data to connection and expose it via API/DBUS https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1112230 -- Miroslav Suchy, RHCE, RHCDS Red Hat, Senior Software Engineer, #brno, #devexp, #fedora-buildsys -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 21.06.2014 03:03, schrieb Dan Williams: On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 23:27 +0200, poma wrote: This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you can only click your heels three times and repeat, There's no place like home. Certainly. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix 50%, even if we can't achieve the stars. So I think there's a ton of value in doing this despite the fact that we can't be perfect stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet don't need prefetch of metadata at all? at least stop todo that as default where are the times gone people made smart decisions instead try to make everybody happy and be it with wrong technical decisions - that won't lead to a Linux marketshare of 90% and it's disgusting professionals signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
HI On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet don't need prefetch of metadata at all? Even if I have a fast connection, I prefer metadata refreshes to happen automatically in the background and consider it as a useful optimization. I would disable that service in a server perhaps and that is something for the server product to consider. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 21.06.2014 16:42, schrieb Rahul Sundaram: On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet don't need prefetch of metadata at all? Even if I have a fast connection, I prefer metadata refreshes to happen automatically in the background and consider it as a useful optimization. I would disable that service in a server perhaps and that is something for the server product to consider what you or i prefer don't matter the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just react on the new updates are available in the GUI - fine that runs completly in the background - there is no slower/faster in that context and most ohters case about *fresh* metadata and not previously cached ones however, it's even not worth to get angry about another wrong default decision and i juest fix the settings at my own signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 21.06.2014 16:42, schrieb Rahul Sundaram: On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet don't need prefetch of metadata at all? Even if I have a fast connection, I prefer metadata refreshes to happen automatically in the background and consider it as a useful optimization. I would disable that service in a server perhaps and that is something for the server product to consider what you or i prefer don't matter the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just react on the new updates are available in the GUI - fine that runs completly in the background - there is no slower/faster in that context and most ohters case about *fresh* metadata and not previously cached ones Well there is not much difference between a few hours old metadata and fresh metadata. You might as well hit a mirror that is a few hours behind in syncing -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 21.06.2014 17:20, schrieb drago01: On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 21.06.2014 16:42, schrieb Rahul Sundaram: On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet don't need prefetch of metadata at all? Even if I have a fast connection, I prefer metadata refreshes to happen automatically in the background and consider it as a useful optimization. I would disable that service in a server perhaps and that is something for the server product to consider what you or i prefer don't matter the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just react on the new updates are available in the GUI - fine that runs completly in the background - there is no slower/faster in that context and most ohters case about *fresh* metadata and not previously cached ones Well there is not much difference between a few hours old metadata and fresh metadata. You might as well hit a mirror that is a few hours behind in syncing and that is the difference if i type dnf upgrade because at the moment i have time and would apply available updates due a cigarette break and get metadata downloaded at that moment the mirror is more likely not behind compared to denf refreshed in background before not only only i did rm -rf /var/cache/yum/*; yum upgrade because i knew there where a security relevant update multiple times and then it was visible another things whis pisses me personally is the size of the metadat at all - that are some hundret MB not worth lying around unused - but as said: i disable that behavior and that's it for me - the decision need to manually disable it remains wrong signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 21.06.2014 03:03, Dan Williams wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 23:27 +0200, poma wrote: On 20.06.2014 17:55, Dan Williams wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py Dan This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you can only click your heels three times and repeat, There's no place like home. Certainly. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix 50%, even if we can't achieve the stars. So I think there's a ton of value in doing this despite the fact that we can't be perfect. Dan Your fame is well deserved, Spaniard. However, a sensible default is what it is. poma -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Zdenek Kabelac zkabe...@redhat.com wrote: Also for years Debian supplies short update 'diffs' - so user doesn't have to download multiple MB sized files - just couple short small files - again something much nicer then running a daemon to download tens of MB on background daily... dnf/yum don't download metadata if it is not changed, the download a small repod.xml file with checksum and other stuff, metadata is only updated when the metadata in cache don't match the ones in the remoted repositories. Updates are only push once a day, and have to sync out to the mirrors, so there is no reason to check for metadata every 10 min og every time dnf is run. both yum/dnf has settings to control how often the remote repos is checked for changes, so it can be configured by the user is they don't like tge default setting. delta metadata is on the wishlist for dnf, but it is hard to get it to work in good way. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Hi On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: what you or i prefer don't matter Sure it does. Otherwise you would not insist that your perspective is the only right one and everyone else who has a different perspective is always wrong in any such discussion. the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just react on the new updates are available in the GUI I have been dealing with user questions in Fedora for around 10 years now and I would disagree with that assertion. We never really managed to attract a large crowd of regular consumers to Fedora who preferred the graphical interfaces for updates and the interfaces have been pretty poor despite several revisions (up2date, pup, gpk-update etc). It might be change with better software managers now but I suspect that most of our regular users are in fact using the command line for updates at this point. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote: and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly. While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras. It would be great if the metadata were fetched, and put into place atomically. Something where the downloading step of the fetching would block on YOUR pid as a user you should never lose the battle, and if you happen to get not a race with the finally atomic save, it would briefly make you wait while the stdio took place. This is one thing I've always though was unfortunate with yum, and would like to see improve with DNF. More resilient handling of tasks, or more concurrency, or whatever. I guess if you were doing a clearing of metadata, and in the back ground metadata were already being fetched... the two tasks could be combined, and you really wouldn't need to be blocked too much. Perhaps someday that will be implemented. =) If you feel like this should be done and there is no RFE about this in bugzilla, feel free to file one. It will probably get deprioritized for the moment but it will at least be tracked. Thanks Jan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20. 6. 2014 at 08:55:18, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). Dnf doesn't know anything about your network connection and I'm not even sure it should ... I can imagine a high level orchestration tool for the entire system to do stuff like this but that's out of our scope. Thanks Jan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:55 AM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). Funny thing you mention this just when I was about to do the same! For various reasons my home internet access is my mobile phone and my first experience last week [1] with dnf on my main laptop was horrible. All this month's bandwidth is gone because I didn't notice dnf was downloading from every mirrors failure after failure. IMHO this feature is not ready to be on by default Dridi [1] I couldn't upgrade to heisenbug because of a fedup bug, and bandwidth limitations :) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
the failed to load plugin copr is also just a bug In that case please file it here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora It is already filed and a fix is on the way: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1104088 Thanks Jan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený: On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote: and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly. While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases * the background yum/dnf proess is running * any dnf/yum command comes with a mystical wait for something you have not ordered that behavior is the same as all the years ago with yum-cron the only difference is that yum-cron are additional packages and so that behavior don't live in the defaults signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information. -- Mat Booth http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information from where should it get that information if your network connection is a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream? your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20. 6. 2014 at 11:22:15, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený: On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote: and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly. While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases Actually it has everything to do with rawhide. On normal distribution you will not see that lock that often because the metadata doesn't change that often and it doesn't need to be re-downloaded multiple times a day. Thanks Jan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 12:23, schrieb Jan Zelený: On 20. 6. 2014 at 11:22:15, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený: On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote: and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly. While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases Actually it has everything to do with rawhide. On normal distribution you will not see that lock that often because the metadata doesn't change that often and it doesn't need to be re-downloaded multiple times a day how does it know that? because it starts and looks for the metadata! frankly i have seen so often checksum does not match try other mirror iterating through the whole mirror lists by calling yum upgrade which leads to *a lot* of traffic if you don't stop it the first time i realized that was PackageKit triggering look for updates and the reason i got aware about this was my network widegt and the question who in the world produces that much network traffic now and why? if you have a small internet package limited to 500 MB per month which is not that uncommon such default jokes may lead to have no longer internet for the rest of the month, reduced bandwith up to unuseable or paying a lot of money signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20. 6. 2014 at 12:29:32, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 12:23, schrieb Jan Zelený: On 20. 6. 2014 at 11:22:15, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený: On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote: and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly. While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases Actually it has everything to do with rawhide. On normal distribution you will not see that lock that often because the metadata doesn't change that often and it doesn't need to be re-downloaded multiple times a day how does it know that? Checksums. Thanks Jan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information from where should it get that information if your network connection is a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream? your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband to which you asked how? I answered only that question again: * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect your devices and have some hundret MB per month in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as OS supplier signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20 June 2014 11:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto: h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information from where should it get that information if your network connection is a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream? your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband to which you asked how? I answered only that question again: * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect your devices and have some hundret MB per month in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as OS supplier Well sure, but there's no sense in throwing out all imperfect solutions because of a desire for perfection. Don't you agree that a good first step would be to teach DNF how to talk to NetworkManager? 3G internet is common in my locale too -- this would at least cover the use case of connecting with a 3G dongle or tethered mobile phone. -- Mat Booth http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20 June 2014 12:04, Mat Booth fed...@matbooth.co.uk wrote: On 20 June 2014 11:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto: h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information from where should it get that information if your network connection is a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream? your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband to which you asked how? I answered only that question again: * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect your devices and have some hundret MB per month in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as OS supplier Well sure, but there's no sense in throwing out all imperfect solutions because of a desire for perfection. Don't you agree that a good first step would be to teach DNF how to talk to NetworkManager? 3G internet is common in my locale too -- this would at least cover the use case of connecting with a 3G dongle or tethered mobile phone. In fact this already seems to be listed in the Feature Backlog, so that's great! https://github.com/akozumpl/dnf/wiki/Features-backlog -- Mat Booth http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does) how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information from where should it get that information if your network connection is a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream? your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection As he said there is a NM API but it is indeed somehow limited as the example you mentioned shows also it (currently) won't work for a simpler case ... tethered Android Phone over USB (because it looks like USB Ethernet). But that does not mean that we should not try to limit the impact if we want to do the background download stuff (perfect is not the enemy of good). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 13:04, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 11:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth: On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net how should it do that? it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was appears to be slow IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information from where should it get that information if your network connection is a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream? your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband to which you asked how? I answered only that question again: * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect your devices and have some hundret MB per month in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as OS supplier Well sure, but there's no sense in throwing out all imperfect solutions because of a desire for perfection. Don't you agree that a good first step would be to teach DNF how to talk to NetworkManager? 3G internet is common in my locale too -- this would at least cover the use case of connecting with a 3G dongle or tethered mobile phone i don't agree the whole idea to refresh metadata unasked in the background as default only to pretend it's faster and repeatly download unused data because nobody asked for it and maybe don't ask for days so stop implement unnecessary overhead with questionable benefit would prevent from all discussions where it's appropriate and how to find out if it's appropriate the imagination that people all day long running dnf/yum is somehow strange *and* that people which are doing are anyways not interested in metadata fetched a hour ago and clean it signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 13:13, schrieb drago01: On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection As he said there is a NM API but it is indeed somehow limited as the example you mentioned shows also it (currently) won't work for a simpler case ... tethered Android Phone over USB (because it looks like USB Ethernet). But that does not mean that we should not try to limit the impact if we want to do the background download stuff (perfect is not the enemy of good) one could simple disable such things as preload-metadata and spend the time for it in more useful work and bugfixing if you don't produce by the user unasked impact you don't need to spend your time find out how limt that impact signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore den...@ausil.us wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Dennis Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is newer than the cached one. so. dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore den...@ausil.us mailto:den...@ausil.us wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Dennis Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is newer than the cached one. so. dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed *that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20.06.2014 14:11, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore den...@ausil.us mailto:den...@ausil.us wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Dennis Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is newer than the cached one. so. dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed *that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes I think these are two separate issues. Independent of the background refreshes dnf should always check if its current view of the world is up-to-date (that is the data in its cache is current). This can be fairly important when it comes to security issues. When a fatal exploit is fixed in a package you don't want dnf to say that there are not updates available when this is in fact not true. Regards, Dennis -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 02:39:25PM +0200, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 20.06.2014 14:11, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore den...@ausil.us mailto:den...@ausil.us wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Dennis Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is newer than the cached one. so. dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed *that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes I think these are two separate issues. Independent of the background refreshes dnf should always check if its current view of the world is up-to-date (that is the data in its cache is current). This can be fairly important when it comes to security issues. When a fatal exploit is fixed in a package you don't want dnf to say that there are not updates available when this is in fact not true. Agreed. In fact, when I'm doing updates (which doesn't happen as frequently as it should due to the disruption to work it causes) I want to be absolutely sure I'm not working out of a stale cache--I often do yum clean expire-cache; yum update since I know I can trust that to give me the latest updates. It would be nice if I could just trust dnf to do the right thing without resorting to extra command line arguments. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Dne 20.6.2014 15:52, Chuck Anderson napsal(a): On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 02:39:25PM +0200, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 20.06.2014 14:11, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore den...@ausil.us mailto:den...@ausil.us wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Dennis Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is newer than the cached one. so. dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed *that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes I think these are two separate issues. Independent of the background refreshes dnf should always check if its current view of the world is up-to-date (that is the data in its cache is current). This can be fairly important when it comes to security issues. When a fatal exploit is fixed in a package you don't want dnf to say that there are not updates available when this is in fact not true. Agreed. In fact, when I'm doing updates (which doesn't happen as frequently as it should due to the disruption to work it causes) I want to be absolutely sure I'm not working out of a stale cache--I often do yum clean expire-cache; yum update since I know I can trust that to give me the latest updates. It would be nice if I could just trust dnf to do the right thing without resorting to extra command line arguments. Well I'm still curious why everyone solves upgrade of metadata, but every developer of yum and dnf stays pretty much away of any 'error-case' handling situation. So whenever there is some crash fault during upgrade the installation is left broken in the middle - and after decades of rpm/yum development there simply doesn't exist tool to fix it. So yes - skilled user will deal with that, but I'm pretty sure any unskilled one is directly heading to reinstall... Also for years Debian supplies short update 'diffs' - so user doesn't have to download multiple MB sized files - just couple short small files - again something much nicer then running a daemon to download tens of MB on background daily... Zdenek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 20.06.2014 17:55, Dan Williams wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py Dan This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you can only click your heels three times and repeat, There's no place like home. poma -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 23:27 +0200, poma wrote: On 20.06.2014 17:55, Dan Williams wrote: On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband (like packagekit does). Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py Dan This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you can only click your heels three times and repeat, There's no place like home. Certainly. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix 50%, even if we can't achieve the stars. So I think there's a ton of value in doing this despite the fact that we can't be perfect. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
that's not the question the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults* Am 19.06.2014 19:40, schrieb Gerald B. Cox: You might want to review: http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/user_faq.html It contains information on how to disable the automatic metadata updates... On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: why does DNF refresh metadata in background? that has no benefit, increases network traffic and finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case you type dnf upgrade *when* you want to apply updates the failed to load plugin copr is also just a bug signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
You might want to review: http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/user_faq.html It contains information on how to disable the automatic metadata updates... On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: why does DNF refresh metadata in background? that has no benefit, increases network traffic and finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case you type dnf upgrade *when* you want to apply updates the failed to load plugin copr is also just a bug -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: that's not the question the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults* I might be way off base here, but in an effort to make DNF go faster compared to YUM, the idea was made to have it pre-fetch metadata ahead of time, so when DNF command is finally run by the user, it skips a costly step... and *seems* faster. Although I believe YUM could do that also with a simple crontab. It is actually a nice feature of DNF or YUM, and I would suggest you embrace. Also, I'm skeptical there is very much network traffic, unless it downloads file lists by default? It's arguable if file lists should be pre-fetched, to do things like determine what package provides something... I would say no, but bandwidth is cheap. So there really is a benefit, and it mostly leads to continuously update metadata. -- -Jon -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 06/19/2014 07:14 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: why does DNF refresh metadata in background? To quote Aleš Kozumplík from [a previous mail]: | majority of people appreciates having the metadata handy and only a minority worries about the traffic. [a previous mail] https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-March/180401.html that has no benefit, False. increases network traffic True (in some scenarios). and finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case you type dnf upgrade *when* you want to apply updates True. the failed to load plugin copr is also just a bug In that case please file it here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora -- Petr³ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 19.06.2014 19:57, schrieb Jon: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: that's not the question the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults* I might be way off base here, but in an effort to make DNF go faster compared to YUM, the idea was made to have it pre-fetch metadata ahead of time, so when DNF command is finally run by the user, it skips a costly step... and *seems* faster. Although I believe YUM could do that also with a simple crontab. It is actually a nice feature of DNF or YUM, and I would suggest you embrace. Also, I'm skeptical there is very much network traffic, unless it downloads file lists by default? It's arguable if file lists should be pre-fetched, to do things like determine what package provides something... I would say no, but bandwidth is cheap. So there really is a benefit, and it mostly leads to continuously update metadata if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Dennis On June 19, 2014 1:01:03 PM CDT, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: Am 19.06.2014 19:57, schrieb Jon: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: that's not the question the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults* I might be way off base here, but in an effort to make DNF go faster compared to YUM, the idea was made to have it pre-fetch metadata ahead of time, so when DNF command is finally run by the user, it skips a costly step... and *seems* faster. Although I believe YUM could do that also with a simple crontab. It is actually a nice feature of DNF or YUM, and I would suggest you embrace. Also, I'm skeptical there is very much network traffic, unless it downloads file lists by default? It's arguable if file lists should be pre-fetched, to do things like determine what package provides something... I would say no, but bandwidth is cheap. So there really is a benefit, and it mostly leads to continuously update metadata if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements. Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. The DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved it by handling metadata in a different way. They've also added settings so that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular needs. and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month. So yes, I completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere. -- Jared Smith -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 19.06.2014 20:59, schrieb Jared K. Smith: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster). Calling the developers liers doesn't help the situation any. if i am really interested in updates now i do yum clean metadata yum upgrade for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements that must be also the reason for proposals like disable the firewall by default while power-users never would do that and the ordinary user is in danger by rely on careful defaults what many developers refuse to understand if i complain about things is that *i have no problem* to adopt many wrong decisions and make them sane, the ordinary user don't know that all and relies on defaults Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata Whether you like it or not, the reason i laugh about Debian based systems over many years is that apt-get upgrade don't do anything most of the time until you force it to refresh the metadata before and then you get the recent security updates you already know that they are available signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Am 19.06.2014 21:09, schrieb Reindl Harald: Am 19.06.2014 20:59, schrieb Jared K. Smith: Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user. You know enough to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata retrieval. What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs. We do things mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and requirements that must be also the reason for proposals like disable the firewall by default while power-users never would do that and the ordinary user is in danger by rely on careful defaults what many developers refuse to understand if i complain about things is that *i have no problem* to adopt many wrong decisions and make them sane, the ordinary user don't know that all and relies on defaults Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum (especially from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata Whether you like it or not, the reason i laugh about Debian based systems over many years is that apt-get upgrade don't do anything most of the time until you force it to refresh the metadata before and then you get the recent security updates you already know that they are available and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had *two times* today by type dnf whatever the there is already an instance, wating for PID... nonsense caused by the background metadata refresh do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience? No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly. It would be great if the metadata were fetched, and put into place atomically. Something where the downloading step of the fetching would block on YOUR pid as a user you should never lose the battle, and if you happen to get not a race with the finally atomic save, it would briefly make you wait while the stdio took place. This is one thing I've always though was unfortunate with yum, and would like to see improve with DNF. More resilient handling of tasks, or more concurrency, or whatever. I guess if you were doing a clearing of metadata, and in the back ground metadata were already being fetched... the two tasks could be combined, and you really wouldn't need to be blocked too much. Perhaps someday that will be implemented. =) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 01:47:27PM -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Just FYI: `dnf --refresh update`. Save you a little bit of typing. :) -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
Adding alias Update='sudo dnf --refresh update' to your .bashrc will safe you that bit of typing every time you want to do an update ;) -- Regards, Heiko Adams Am Donnerstag, den 19.06.2014, 16:35 -0400 schrieb Matthew Miller: On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 01:47:27PM -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote: In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do dnf clean metadata dnf update purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give. Just FYI: `dnf --refresh update`. Save you a little bit of typing. :) -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
FYI... update is a deprecated alias for the upgrade command, and has been for a couple of years. Don't know when they're going to phase it out, but probably a good idea to switch over to get used to it. Also, to make the changes more permanent, add the following lines to /etc/dnf/dnf.conf metadata_expire=0 metadata_timer_sync=0 That is what I finally did... Of the two years of using DNF I have always had to dnf clean before upgrade otherwise it would report back no updates were available, even though a yum update would report that changes were indeed available. I've never had much luck with the automagic update utilities. kpackagekit now known apper would always startup at the most inopportune times, chugging away, slowing down the system. I think one of the number one questions has always been how to disable it. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand how some people love that sort of thing. I personally alway prefer to do anything upgrade related manually, though the command line, watching as changes are being applied. I guess I'm not very trusting in that regard. LOL... Just a few weeks ago, I finally got tired of it and searched and found out how to update the dnf.conf. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On 06/19/2014 03:42 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: FYI... update is a deprecated alias for the upgrade command, and has been for a couple of years. Don't know when they're going to phase it out, but probably a good idea to switch over to get used to it. On a bit of a tangent, per the current yum-3.4.3 man page: upgrade Is the same as the update command with the --obsoletes flag set. See update for more details. So, either no, not just an alias, and they aren't deprecating it effectively at all, or, the documentation needs to be brought up to date. Could be either way; I don't know. -- J. Randall Owens | http://www.ghiapet.net/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time
On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:33 PM, J. Randall Owens jrowens.fed...@ghiapet.net wrote: On a bit of a tangent, per the current yum-3.4.3 man page: upgrade Is the same as the update command with the --obsoletes flag set. See update for more details. We're not talking about YUM, we're talking about DNF... and per the current dnf man page: Update Command dnf [options] update Deprecated alias for the Upgrade Command. So, yes... it is a just an alias, they are deprecating it (and it has been that way since day 1 for DNF), and their documentation is up to date. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
