Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Chris Murphy > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: >> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Chris Murphy

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Chris Murphy > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> About the rewrite comment: that did not come

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Chris Murphy > wrote: >> >> >> About the rewrite comment: that did not come from a developer, and is >> definitely overstated. In any case, rewrites are not inherently

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > About the rewrite comment: that did not come from a developer, and is > definitely overstated. In any case, rewrites are not inherently bad > news, there's a bunch of OpenZFS videos from last yearss summit in >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Chris Murphy > > wrote: > > > > > That may be, but all the articles I read suggested

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > I knew that it was experimental when I first set it up years ago, but I > never imagined > it would still be experimental in 2016. I just got tired of waiting, and > the statement > that it would all most likely have to be

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Chris Murphy > wrote: >> >> > As far as BTRFS >> >> > is concerned however, I believe that ship has sailed. I used it for 4 >> > years, but after the recent news

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > As far as BTRFS > > is concerned however, I believe that ship has sailed. I used it for 4 > > years, but after the recent news regarding RAID > > The only news about Btrfs RAID I can think of that you're referring

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Tomasz Kłoczko > wrote: >> >> You have still 4th option: >> - create from snapshots separated boot environment (BE) >> - do upgrade in BE >> - restart system from

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote: > You have still 4th option: > - create from snapshots separated boot environment (BE) > - do upgrade in BE > - restart system from new BE > > To be honest only tis method solves all hazards which are not listed in

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10 October 2016 at 00:04, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > You have 3 options how to resolve it: > >1. You ignore it completely and you patiently wait until your system >crash. >2. Do Offline Updates >. >3.

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > For those wanting to know which processes need to be restarted after > update, > there is the appropriately named dnf needs-restarting: > http://dnf-plugins-core.readthedocs.io/en/latest/needs_restarting.html > > I also just

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote: > I must suggest that "nohup dnf whatever > logfile.out &" is your > friend for exactly this sort of thing. stdin/stdout/stderr are all > disconnected from the running session and a visible log is generated. > Thanks

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Andrew Lutomirski wrote: > On Oct 7, 2016 1:29 PM, "Frank Ch. Eigler" wrote: >> >> >> >> > [...] I always run dnf manually from the >> >> > command line, in a VT logged in as root. And I can run X while doing >> >> > this and I've

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Oct 7, 2016 1:29 PM, "Frank Ch. Eigler" wrote: > > > >> > [...] I always run dnf manually from the > >> > command line, in a VT logged in as root. And I can run X while doing > >> > this and I've never had a dnf update issue. > > To the extent that the problem is that dnf

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

>> > [...] I always run dnf manually from the >> > command line, in a VT logged in as root. And I can run X while doing >> > this and I've never had a dnf update issue. To the extent that the problem is that dnf gets interrupted when its xterm dies, can that be worked around by dnf SIG_IGN'ing

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Fri, 2016-10-07 at 21:11 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > On 10/04/2016 08:10 PM, stan wrote: > > > I think I can confirm this advice. I always run dnf manually from the > > command line, in a VT logged in as root. And I can run X while doing > > this and I've never had a dnf update issue. >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/04/2016 08:10 PM, stan wrote: > I think I can confirm this advice. I always run dnf manually from the > command line, in a VT logged in as root. And I can run X while doing > this and I've never had a dnf update issue. The problem with this is that the VT doesn't have a long history, so

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Fri, 7 Oct 2016 00:18:21 -0400 Eric Griffith wrote: > I'm just thinking out loud here, but, given that rpm-ostree does not > use grubby, and we do have the Bootloader Spec, and no other distro > uses grubby, would it be prudent to take a really hard look at > whether

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

I'm just thinking out loud here, but, given that rpm-ostree does not use grubby, and we do have the Bootloader Spec, and no other distro uses grubby, would it be prudent to take a really hard look at whether grubby is still a path we want to walk? If it is, then more work obviously needs to

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Thu, 6 Oct 2016 17:05:45 -0400 > Eric Griffith wrote: > >> Can anyone answer this relatively simple question: "Why grubby?" I've >> seen a number of discussions on various topics surrounding the boot

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 01:57:20PM -, Peter Larsen wrote: > > I never needed to reboot. I just keep working on my stuff, when I'm > > done I turn the laptop off. Is there any reason to reboot right after > > updating? > > That's actually a very common misunderstanding. People think that

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Fri, 2016-10-07 at 01:25 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Adam Williamson wrote: > > Huh - that's handy, and I did not actually know --nopostun (something > > new every day, etc.). It does involve including instructions on how to > > find the package, though, which would inevitably go stale as it

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson wrote: > Huh - that's handy, and I did not actually know --nopostun (something > new every day, etc.). It does involve including instructions on how to > find the package, though, which would inevitably go stale as it moves > from u-t to stable. Still, thanks. Seeing how this is

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, 6 Oct 2016 17:05:45 -0400 Eric Griffith wrote: > Can anyone answer this relatively simple question: "Why grubby?" I've > seen a number of discussions on various topics surrounding the boot > loader that all seem to devolve into "We would love to support that, > but

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 17:05 -0400, Eric Griffith wrote: > Can anyone answer this relatively simple question: "Why grubby?" I've > seen a number of discussions on various topics surrounding the boot > loader that all seem to devolve into "We would love to support that, > but grubby doesn't, so we

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Can anyone answer this relatively simple question: "Why grubby?" I've seen a number of discussions on various topics surrounding the boot loader that all seem to devolve into "We would love to support that, but grubby doesn't, so we can't." At what point does the maintenance burden of using

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson wrote: > Next time maybe I'll just say 'screw this' and go play golf instead, if this > is the thanks I get for trying to help people out. Others have thanked you, actually, but parts of this email chain have gotten a little heated, so I guess it's worth repeating: Thanks for

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 10:18 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Adam Williamson wrote: > > What exactly would you have had me do? Just sit on this and pretend > > there was no bug and when we saw more and more people come into #fedora > > and complain about it, tell them the risk was minimal so they

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 03:26:10PM -0700, Japheth Cleaver wrote: > I don't know what the dnf equivalent is, but isn't that precisely what the > 'needs-restarting' command provided? DNF has the tracer plugin for doing exactly that, including printing a list of commands to restart the affected

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 08:20:34AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 10:18 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > rpm -Uvh --nodeps --nopostun \ > > > > http://$MIRROR/updates/testing/25/x86_64/s/systemd-udev-231-8.fc25.x86_64.rpm > > Huh - that's handy, and I did not actually know

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Tomasz Kłoczko wrote: > So how problem of consistent upgrade have been solved on Solaris using ZFS > and IPS? > ZFS has ability to create snapshot of the vol (RO resource) and create on > top of the shapshot clone (RW resource). > Whole

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 08:20 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 10:18 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Adam Williamson wrote: > What exactly would you have had me do? Just sit on this and pretend > there was no bug and when we saw more and more people come into #fedora > and complain

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 10:18 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: What exactly would you have had me do? Just sit on this and pretend there was no bug and when we saw more and more people come into #fedora and complain about it, tell them the risk was minimal so they should just suck

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Hi every one, Reading all ideas about solving issues with upgrading systems from working systems are more or less ideas of ad choc solving some issues or even more or less reinventing the wheel. IMO all those ideas will not solve anything and will only increase total level of entropy. After this

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > OK, from now on when I see bugs causing serious real world consequences > for multiple real world reporters I'll just shut up and pretend it's > not happening, shall I? Wouldn't want to be all 'alarmist' about

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson writes: On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 23:54 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > * As a general workaround for this type of crashes, we need a > > complete-transaction command in DNF – please add your voices to: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1091702 > > – and not the

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

As for the KDE part: Adam Williamson wrote: > The 'standard Fedora solution' for KDE is...well I don't know, The standard updater on the KDE Spin is plasma-pk-updates. The other tools can also do updates (or at least they claim to be able to), but the applet in the system tray that

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/05/2016 03:00 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 20:43 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote: But ordinary regular app updates will happily run on cruise control, without bringing the system down into single user mode. If Android can do that, I see no reason why Fedora can't, either.

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/06/2016 05:45 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 20:38 -0700, Andrew Lutomirski wrote: I don't understand how you arrive at this conclusion. dnf is sitting on the top of a house of cards when it's running in Terminal. If anything below it dies, dnf dies and by extension so

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson wrote: > What exactly would you have had me do? Just sit on this and pretend > there was no bug and when we saw more and more people come into #fedora > and complain about it, tell them the risk was minimal so they should > just suck it up and get on with their lives? I mean,

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 23:54 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > * As a general workaround for this type of crashes, we need a > > complete-transaction command in DNF – please add your voices to: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1091702 > > – and not the sledgehammer approach of

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Kevin Kofler writes: Adam Williamson wrote: > I don't want to get in the KDE folks' bad graces, but this likely could > also affect KDE's graphical update system, so I'd advise against using > that for the present too. Offline updates in KDE are just not going to happen any time soon. I also

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 19:17 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Adam Williamson > wrote: > > > I honestly think GNOME has this exactly right for the 'general' user: > > the safe thing to do is to strongly encourage offline updates, i.e. > >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 20:38 -0700, Andrew Lutomirski wrote: > I don't understand how you arrive at this conclusion. dnf is sitting > > on the top of a house of cards when it's running in Terminal. If > > anything below it dies, dnf dies and by extension so is rpm. Could dnf > > be put into it's

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Andrew Lutomirski wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: >>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2016 09:51:16 -0700 >>> Andrew Lutomirski

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > I honestly think GNOME has this exactly right for the 'general' user: > the safe thing to do is to strongly encourage offline updates, i.e. > don't offer any online update mechanism through the desktop. In a >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Thu, 2016-10-06 at 00:05 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Adam Williamson wrote: > > I don't want to get in the KDE folks' bad graces, but this likely could > > also affect KDE's graphical update system, so I'd advise against using > > that for the present too. > > > Offline updates in KDE are

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/5/2016 2:40 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: I think it is a mistake to require reboot for _every_ update, even though, as you say, even user apps sometimes _cannot_ be updated online (*). I am comfortable with

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson wrote: > I don't want to get in the KDE folks' bad graces, but this likely could > also affect KDE's graphical update system, so I'd advise against using > that for the present too. Offline updates in KDE are just not going to happen any time soon. I also don't see offline

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/05/2016 05:24 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 04:59:57PM -0400, Przemek Klosowski wrote: Now that systemd kills processes on logout, and session timeout is required by security policies in many workplaces including mine, I fear we'll have more of those. I certainly had

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Stephen Gallagher wrote: > That seems like a waste of effort, considering we have the offline updates > process which just boots into a special, minimalist environment with > almost nothing but the updater running. But the offline process is highly impractical, it requires you to interrupt all

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

5.10.2016 22:21 Dan Book wrote: > [...] I'd like to add that at least the MATE and Cinnamon spins, possibly > others, do not include PackageKit and instead expect users to update using > yumex-dnf or dnf itself. So ideally an offline update mechanism can be added > to dnf, and

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > On 10/04/2016 08:12 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > The first is what happens on the other 90% of the world's computers, > including Android system updates. Consider that. The second exists, > right now, and it

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/04/2016 08:12 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: The first is what happens on the other 90% of the world's computers, including Android system updates. Consider that. The second exists, right now, and it works and it's a lot better than what the rest of the world uses. What do you mean by 'system'?

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 05:14:11PM -0400, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > What do you mean by 'system'? Android apps update online just fine. > Fedora does not have this distinction betwen apps and core system: > it's just a bunch of packages. I think it is a mistake to require > reboot for _every_

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 04:59:57PM -0400, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > Now that systemd kills processes on logout, and session timeout is > required by security policies in many workplaces including mine, I > fear we'll have more of those. I certainly had update sessions that > involved hundreds of

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/04/2016 12:06 PM, Andrew Lutomirski wrote: How hard would it be to make dnf do the rpm transaction inside a proper system-level service (transient or otherwise)? This would greatly increase robustness against desktop crashes, ssh connection loss, KillUserProcs, and other damaging

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 10:43 -0700, Japheth Cleaver wrote: > > After a check-update preview, I can count the number of times "yum -y > update &" has ever failed me over the years on one hand. That still sounds like somewhere between 1 and 5 times too many. =) The thing is, the case where dnf

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > I created a RFE bug requesting that the upgrade function in DNF be changed > to incorporate "offline" upgrades as an option. If it is really > an issue, DNF should handle it. >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 06:18 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:30 PM, Adam Williamson > wrote: > > > Querying the package database and installing new packages. A system > > update, on the other hand, is...it's not *configurable*, really. You > >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/5/2016 9:37 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:56:35 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 20:42:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: The one thing I absolutely would advise against: don't do an update over ssh!

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:56:35 -0500 Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 20:42:11 -0700, > Adam Williamson wrote: > > > >I'd say broadly speaking both, but the most disruptive and > >potentially catastrophic effect is when the update

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 20:42:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: I'd say broadly speaking both, but the most disruptive and potentially catastrophic effect is when the update process itself crashes or is killed. Because of how RPM transactions work, this generally

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > That said, they basically already do it with the dnf-system-upgrade > plugin; so why not just expand > that a bit. Also, while i completely understand that it is much easier to > just use a sledgehammer and say "offline

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

> I never needed to reboot. I just keep working on my stuff, when I'm > done I turn the laptop off. Is there any reason to reboot right after > updating? That's actually a very common misunderstanding. People think that "yum/dnf update" leaves their system in a new updated stage. But it

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > And really the bottom line is, dnf update is fine the vast majority of > the time, except when it isn't. Failures are somewhere in between a > bug and not at all surprising. And people have been working hard on >

Re: ... and Fedora 25! - Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 12:38:15PM +0200, Martin Kolman wrote: > > >    KillUserProcesses=yes > > Ouch!  Forgot about that. > BTW, was there any progress in making screen & tmux aware of this, so > that screen and tmux sessions are not killed when the user logs out or > - as in this case - the

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 01:13:35AM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > I don't get any notifications at all. I just try to remember to run Yum > periodically, and there I'm not told which updates are security updates. If you install fedora-motd, it'll update /etc/motd with pending update info when you

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > Querying the package database and installing new packages. A system > update, on the other hand, is...it's not *configurable*, really. You > say 'update my system, please!' and you get an updated system. That's

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

I never needed to reboot. I just keep working on my stuff, when I'm done I turn the laptop off. Is there any reason to reboot right after updating? Cheers, Sylvia ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Kevin, now you mention Wayland... Could it be possible to be a Wayland related issue? I have Nvidia but no Wayland and never an issue updating from desktop. Cheers, Sylvia ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe

Re: ... and Fedora 25! - Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 18:19 -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote: > On 10/04/2016 01:03 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 12:31:43PM -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Can you clarify?  In what circumstances would the dnf command > > > running > > > within a screen session

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > OK this is from just one thread, pretty much exactly two years ago. > It's a long thread so these are just extractions I think are useful in > getting a few different data points about the rationalization of > offline

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 13:34 +1000, Jeff Fearn wrote: > On 5/10/2016 12:36, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > > Adam Williamson writes: > > > > > All dnf's 'nice features' aren't really there for a system update, are > > > they? > > > > > > Well what are they there for, then? > > > > > You can use

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 5/10/2016 12:36, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Adam Williamson writes: > >> All dnf's 'nice features' aren't really there for a system update, are >> they? > > Well what are they there for, then? > >> You can use all of its nice features for doing other things. > > Like what? I thought

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 02:59 +, Andrew Toskin wrote: > This is the first I've heard of any recommendation like this. If > running `dnf upgrade` from a graphical console is such a big and > well-known risk, then why isn't it mentioned in the dnf > documentation? I've posted about this on the dnf

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 22:36 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Adam Williamson writes: > > > > > All dnf's 'nice features' aren't really there for a system update, > > are > > they? > > Well what are they there for, then? Querying the package database and installing new packages. A system update,

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

OK this is from just one thread, pretty much exactly two years ago. It's a long thread so these are just extractions I think are useful in getting a few different data points about the rationalization of offline updates, and context for the use case where they're most well suited (or not). And

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

This is the first I've heard of any recommendation like this. If running `dnf upgrade` from a graphical console is such a big and well-known risk, then why isn't it mentioned in the dnf documentation? I've posted about this on the dnf Bugzilla.

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson writes: All dnf's 'nice features' aren't really there for a system update, are they? Well what are they there for, then? You can use all of its nice features for doing other things. Like what? I thought that the only thing dnf does is update the system. Oh, yeah,

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 18:59 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > I've been scrambling reading threads trying to understand what exactly is > the exposure here. The only thing I could find that quantified the risk > was in this kde thread: > > https://goo.gl/m87COz You're never really going to be

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Strictly speaking Fedora doesn't make you do the first one, but it's >> *well* understood for a long time how fragile this is which is why >> offline updates was created. >> > > Well, this is a surprise to me. I

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 20:43 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > But ordinary regular app updates will happily run on cruise control, without  > bringing the system down into single user mode. If Android can do that, I  > see no reason why Fedora can't, either. The only time you need to reboot an  >

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Chris Murphy writes: I suggested earlier in the thread that it automatically put itself in its own scope. But I don't know if that solves this problem, and even if it does it's only one part of a much bigger set of problems that can cause updates to implode. In this case, sure maybe dnf

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

OK Everyone.. enough. If you want to keep at it, take it off-list. -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Chris Adams writes: Once upon a time, Sam Varshavchik said: > I can make any process survive an X shutdown, using an amazing tool > called "tmux". > > Why can't dnf do the same? Because dnf would have to reimplement tmux's (or screen's) TTY handling, which is far

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > Chris Murphy writes: > >> > Seems to me it >> > would be more worthwhile to build in better error recovery within DNF >> > than >> > to always require "offline" - especially >> > since the incidence of failure (at

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Once upon a time, Sam Varshavchik said: > I can make any process survive an X shutdown, using an amazing tool > called "tmux". > > Why can't dnf do the same? Because dnf would have to reimplement tmux's (or screen's) TTY handling, which is far outside the scope of a

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 19:47 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote: > > I'm quite astonished to read this. Something is wrong, here. Either I have > suffered a stroke, today, or I seriously misunderstood some POSIX > fundamentals, for the last twenty years. Oh fer Pete's sake, would you please ratchet

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Chris Murphy writes: > Seems to me it > would be more worthwhile to build in better error recovery within DNF than > to always require "offline" - especially > since the incidence of failure (at least anecdotally) just isn't that high. Sufficiently impractical that it's not possible. Wrong.

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson writes: It's pretty simple, really: a process running in a terminal inside a graphical desktop will crash if the terminal app crashes, or if the desktop crashes, or if X crashes. It should take me about five minutes to write a process that will continue happily along if its

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Björn Persson wrote: > Adam Williamson wrote: >> If you're using Workstation, the offline update system is expressly >> designed to minimize the likelihood of this kind of problem, so please >> do consider using it. > > In CentOS or Debian I

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Gerald B. Cox writes: it.  Apparently I've missed something along the way because now people are implying that using the command line tools from within GNOME or KDE are dangerous.  What exactly is going on? Somewhere along the way, it seems that quite a few sharks have been jumped over.

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Chris Murphy writes: I don't understand how you arrive at this conclusion. dnf is sitting on the top of a house of cards when it's running in Terminal. If anything below it dies, dnf dies and by extension so is rpm. Could dnf be put into it's own session or scope (whatever it's called), and

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Andrew Lutomirski writes: My point is that a lot of this exposure could be avoided. Sure, there's a decent chance that updating packages will crash running programs. But, unless one of those programs is dnf, rpm, or systemd, that shouldn't be an excuse to blow up the whole upgrade. I agree.

Re: ... and Fedora 25! - Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

On 10/04/2016 01:03 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 12:31:43PM -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote: Can you clarify? In what circumstances would the dnf command running within a screen session not survive an X/desktop crash? KillUserProcesses=yes Ouch! Forgot about that. --

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

stan wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 00:20:25 +0200 > Björn Persson wrote: > > > In a VT I'll often be unable to review the list of updates before > > hitting Y, as I'll only see the end of the list. > > An alternative to Adam's suggestions. > > It takes a couple of

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Chris Murphy wrote: > It's not really workable without an atomic and out of tree update > method, otherwise libraries are still yanked out from under running > processes at some point. Running programs and their loaded libraries count as open files. Unixy filesystems don't delete open files.

Re: PSA: Do not run 'dnf update' inside GNOME, KDE or any other graphical desktop on Fedora 24

Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2016-10-05 at 00:20 +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > > Adam Williamson wrote: > > > If you're using Workstation, the offline update system is > > > expressly designed to minimize the likelihood of this kind of > > > problem, so please do consider using it. > > >

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