Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 04/22/2014 12:15 PM, Nikos Roussos wrote: There is also a third group, somewhere in between, who believe that's ok to ship Free Software that connects and interops with proprietary services (gtalk, aws, etc), but it's not ok to ship proprietary software, metadata about proprietary software or

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 24 April 2014 16:06, Christian Schaller wrote: > > > These were things that people were wondering when this came up in the > past. > > Once again this is becoming a debate about hypotheticals which rarely > leads anywhere > constructive. > > It actually isn't hypothetical. I have had to deal w

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

- Original Message - > From: "Stephen John Smoogen" > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 6:46:03 PM > Subject: Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations > > &

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 24 April 2014 09:56, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 04/24/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > > > > > On 24 April 2014 02:49, Christian Schaller > > wrote: > > > > Well my point is I spoke to Red Hat

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:04:41 -0600 > Ken Dreyer wrote: > >> One practical difference is that there's no bug trackers for >> individual COPRs. At least when a package is in Fedora, communication >> can happen in a central place (Bugzilla), and

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:04:41 -0600 Ken Dreyer wrote: > One practical difference is that there's no bug trackers for > individual COPRs. At least when a package is in Fedora, communication > can happen in a central place (Bugzilla), and there's an FE-LEGAL > blocker mechanism, etc. That tooling is

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> OK cool. What is the plan for when repositories change what they >> are carrying and add stuff that may be legal for them but not for >> others? Will there be periodic reviews to make sure that this >> hasn't happened or some way that we

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 04/24/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> >> >> >> On 24 April 2014 02:49, Christian Schaller > > wrote: >> >> Well my point is I spoke to Red H

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/24/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > On 24 April 2014 02:49, Christian Schaller > wrote: > > Well my point is I spoke to Red Hat legal before I even posted the > original proposal to open up to m

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 24 April 2014 02:49, Christian Schaller wrote: > Well my point is I spoke to Red Hat legal before I even posted the > original proposal to open up to more 3rd party repositories some > Months ago. There are a lot of repositories that it is perfectly > fine for Fedora to include from a legal pe

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 4/24/14, Christian Schaller wrote: > So decisions need to be general to allow us to look for a variety of options > to fulfill them. Lets say Fedora decided we want to make it > easier for our users to get more multimedia codecs. We would not get the > go ahead from legal to include a reposito

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

ore distracting ourselves with 'implementation'. Christian - Original Message - > From: "drago01" > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 4:37:40 PM > Subject: Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fed

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > On 23 April 2014 02:29, Christian Schaller wrote: >> >> Hi Mairin, >> Not sure exactly where you are coming from in terms of wanting legal >> to weigh in, but in general I don't think legals opinion is very relevant >> and this

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 23 April 2014 02:29, Christian Schaller wrote: > Hi Mairin, > Not sure exactly where you are coming from in terms of wanting legal > to weigh in, but in general I don't think legals opinion is very relevant > and this point. The first step here should always be us as a project > deciding what

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 4/23/14, drago01 wrote: > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Alec Leamas wrote: >> There are some aspects on this: >> - I don't think Fedora is able add non-free, patent-encumbered sw in >> e. g., in the way Ubuntu does - it fails on the fact that US law is >> applicable [...] > > This has bee

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Alec Leamas wrote: > There are some aspects on this: > - I don't think Fedora is able add non-free, patent-encumbered sw in > e. g., in the way Ubuntu does - it fails on the fact that US law is > applicable [...] This has been repeated multiple times recently bu

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 4/22/14, Przemek Klosowski wrote: [cut] >> >> Everything in our repos is free, so putting the choice in the >> installer seems off to me. Our policy (which is complex and obviously >> driven by things stronger than the UX) generally leaves it to users >> post-install to add encumbered software.

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Stephen Gallagher" , devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 4:10:49 PM > Subject: Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations > > On 04/22/2014 09:13 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > So one of the key questions here is whether the curr

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:31:11 -0400 "Eric H. Christensen" wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 08:33:55PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: > > I find it difficult to believe that "most users" [don't have Flash > > installed]. AFAIK there is no data t

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

2014-04-22 21:31 GMT+02:00 Eric H. Christensen : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 08:33:55PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: > > I find it difficult to believe that "most users" [don't have Flash > > installed]. AFAIK there is no data to say either way,

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 08:33:55PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: > I find it difficult to believe that "most users" [don't have Flash > installed]. AFAIK there is no data to say either way, and anecdotal > evidence from around here isn't supportive.

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

2014-04-21 19:37 GMT+02:00 Eric H. Christensen : > And how are these contributors going to contribute to their proprietary > solutions that we now provide for them? They aren't; isn't that a *benefit* for the open solutions? > How do we support something that is simply provided to us as a bin

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

2014-04-21 19:07 GMT+02:00 Haïkel Guémar : > Le 21/04/2014 18:37, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : > > I spoke too strongly there, I think. We do however give a *very* >> strong impression that using non-FOSS solutions for anything at all is >> unwelcome at best. Consider the recent discussions around

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

2014-04-21 17:56 GMT+02:00 Eric H. Christensen : > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > ...I'd > > like to suggest a fifth Foundation, one to ultimately supersede all > > the rest: "Functional". > > I think anytime anyone suggests a new foundation that supersedes

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 22 April 2014 05:53, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 04/21/2014 05:31 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > On 21 April 2014 11:19, Stephen Gallagher > > wrote: > > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 05:50:20PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: >> Board seats should absolutely keep in mind various aspects of the >> entire project, but we need less partisanship and more open-mindedness >> at this level. We need people wil

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 04/22/2014 08:55 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote: Some of the choices Przemek suggested don't make sense depending on the context. E.g., full functionality vs. small size / speed I think has a different meaning depending on whether you have a workstation target (which, either way, will include X) or

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/22/2014 11:17 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 05:50:20PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: >> Board seats should absolutely keep in mind various aspects of >> the entire project, but we need less partisanship and more >> open-mindednes

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 05:50:20PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > Board seats should absolutely keep in mind various aspects of the > entire project, but we need less partisanship and more open-mindedness > at this level. We need people willing to work together to find out > what is best for the Proje

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Hi, On 04/22/2014 10:14 AM, H. Guémar wrote: Well, we may end up lawyered by Legal, but I think it's good we try to realign ourselves and clear up few misunderstandings. How do you propose we do that? ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailm

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 04/22/2014 09:13 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: So one of the key questions here is whether the current policy on essentially hiding (protecting?) the user from these external software sources is truly in keeping with our Foundations, Mission and general project health. To be honest, I'm fairl

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

2014-04-22 16:10 GMT+02:00 Máirín Duffy : > > To be honest, I'm fairly uncomfortable discussing this without Fedora Legal > weighing in. I don't see any problem with re-visiting the decisions made > along this path, but I also am pretty confident the folks who decided things > had to be this way ar

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

- Original Message - > Le lundi 21 avril 2014 à 11:17 -0400, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : > > > > > I'm trying to assert with this proposal that the best way for us to > > advance free and open source software is to continue shipping only > > open-source software, while making it easy for

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/22/2014 08:55 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote: > Hi folks, > >> On 04/22/2014 07:40 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: >>> Is it safe to assume that research is backup by public >>> usability tests? > > On 04/22/2014 07:55 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Hi folks, On 04/22/2014 07:40 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: Is it safe to assume that research is backup by public usability tests? On 04/22/2014 07:55 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: When I invoke Máirín, I usually find it safe to make that assumption, but I'll let her speak for herself o

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/22/2014 07:40 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > On 04/22/2014 11:43 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> I'd like to summon Máirín Duffy into this conversation here, if >> she's willing. She's done a fair amount of research into exactly >> how m

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 05:31 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On 21 April 2014 11:19, Stephen Gallagher > wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > > On 04/21/2014 01:08 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> On Mon, A

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 04/22/2014 11:43 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: I'd like to summon Máirín Duffy into this conversation here, if she's willing. She's done a fair amount of research into exactly how many and what kind of questions are reasonable to ask a user in startup before scaring them off or confusing them.

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 06:23 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > On 04/21/2014 01:27 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> >> On 04/21/2014 01:07 PM, Haïkel Guémar wrote: >> >> We should think on how we could improve collaboration with >> third-party repos, fedmsg/copr

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Tue, 2014-04-22 at 06:46 -0400, Christian Schaller wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Nikos Roussos" > > > There is also a third group, somewhere in between, who believe that's ok > > to ship Free Software that connects and interops with proprietary > > services (gtalk, aws, etc)

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

- Original Message - > From: "Nikos Roussos" > There is also a third group, somewhere in between, who believe that's ok > to ship Free Software that connects and interops with proprietary > services (gtalk, aws, etc), but it's not ok to ship proprietary > software, metadata about proprie

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, 2014-04-21 at 08:36 -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > The language in this Foundation is sometimes dangerously unclear. For > example, it pretty much explicitly forbids the use of non-free > components in the creation of Fedora (sorry, folks: you can't use > Photoshop to create your package

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, 2014-04-21 at 17:50 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > Look, I think the Foundations are great. They remind us all of why we > got into this to begin with (or most of us anyway). However, they are > never going to completely cover all cases. They are broad. They > project strength and convictio

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 04/21/2014 01:27 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > On 04/21/2014 01:07 PM, Haïkel Guémar wrote: > > We should think on how we could improve collaboration with > third-party repos, fedmsg/copr might be part of the technical > solution. How about a Fedora Partnership Program ? We could open up >

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 04/21/2014 04:35 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:02 AM, inode0 wrote: >>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Stephen Gallagher >>> wrote: Lately, I've been th

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On 21 April 2014 11:19, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 04/21/2014 01:08 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57 -0400, Stephen Gallagher > > wrote: > >>> Does Fedora need to be that gateway OS? Maybe Ubuntu would be a > >

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > To boil it down: > > Is the Freedom Foundation too strict? (Alternately, are we reading it > too strictly?) In other words, is our hard-line on only displaying > FOSS solutions ultimately accomplishing our Mission to advance FOSS? I > arg

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 04:35 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:02 AM, inode0 wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Stephen Gallagher >> wrote: >>> Lately, I've been thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: >>> "Freedom, Friends, Featur

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:02 AM, inode0 wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Stephen Gallagher > wrote: >> Lately, I've been thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: "Freedom, >> Friends, Features, First", particularly in relation to some very >> sticky questions about where certain thin

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Le lundi 21 avril 2014 à 13:19 -0400, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : > On 04/21/2014 01:08 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57 -0400, Stephen Gallagher > > wrote: > > > >> But I think that trying to actively discourage (read: prevent) > >> users from installing such softwa

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 20:08:06 +0200, drago01 wrote: "going to be significantly modifying the graphics system" ... what does that even mean? afaik it does not do any such a thing. It is just an X / SDL2 + OpenGL application like any other ("just" closed source). It does look like it only

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57 -0400, > Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> >> >> I don't think it's unreasonable for us to allow them to use Chrome >> from the Google repository. I don't think it's unreasonable to allow >> them to use Steam f

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 01:37 PM, Eric H. Christensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57PM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> On 04/21/2014 11:56 AM, Eric H. Christensen wrote: > i> > packaging or otherwise making it easier for one to choose >>> proprieta

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57PM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > On 04/21/2014 11:56 AM, Eric H. Christensen wrote: i> > packaging or otherwise making it easier for one to choose > > proprietary software. When we start pushing proprietary soluti

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 01:07 PM, Haïkel Guémar wrote: > Le 21/04/2014 18:37, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : >> >> I spoke too strongly there, I think. We do however give a *very* >> strong impression that using non-FOSS solutions for anything at >> all is unwelc

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 07:04:03PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le lundi 21 avril 2014 à 11:56 -0400, Eric H. Christensen a écrit : > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > > > > Now, let me be further clear on th

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 01:08 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57 -0400, Stephen Gallagher > wrote: >> >> I don't think it's unreasonable for us to allow them to use >> Chrome from the Google repository. I don't think it's >> unreason

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Le 21/04/2014 18:37, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : I spoke too strongly there, I think. We do however give a *very* strong impression that using non-FOSS solutions for anything at all is unwelcome at best. Consider the recent discussions around GNOME Software where we have 1) Forbidden it from aut

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:37:57 -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: I don't think it's unreasonable for us to allow them to use Chrome from the Google repository. I don't think it's unreasonable to allow them to use Steam from the Valve repository. Device drivers get into hazy territory, but I t

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > On 04/21/2014 11:56 AM, Eric H. Christensen wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >>> ...I'd like to suggest a fifth Foundation, one to ultimately >>> supersede all the rest: "Functional". >> >> I t

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Le lundi 21 avril 2014 à 11:17 -0400, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : > > I'm trying to assert with this proposal that the best way for us to > advance free and open source software is to continue shipping only > open-source software, while making it easy for users to *transition*. > By setting a har

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Le lundi 21 avril 2014 à 11:56 -0400, Eric H. Christensen a écrit : > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > > > Now, let me be further clear on this: I am not in any way advocating > > the use of closed-source software or services. I am not suggesting > > that we star

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 12:37 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > What about solutions that have no useful FOSS analog? Are you > expecting that someone who uses Adobe Lightroom all the time > should switch to Fedora and write a brand-new post-processing > engine th

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 11:56 AM, Eric H. Christensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> ...I'd like to suggest a fifth Foundation, one to ultimately >> supersede all the rest: "Functional". > > I think anytime anyon

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:40:03AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > ...snip... > > IMHO, it feels wrong to call this it's own foundation. A foundation is > a core value of our community, and this seems like a harsh reality we > have to live with. I also have a hard time envisioning functionality at t

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > ...I'd > like to suggest a fifth Foundation, one to ultimately supersede all > the rest: "Functional". I think anytime anyone suggests a new foundation that supersedes all of what

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:17:41AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > Well, the problem I have with the Foundations is that by the way we > have defined them, we've very clearly identified them as "equal" to > one another. I'm not sure that this is sensible, particularly with > regards to the "Freed

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 11:02 AM, inode0 wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Stephen Gallagher > wrote: >> Lately, I've been thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: >> “Freedom, Friends, Features, First", particularly in relation to >> some very sticky

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 10:52 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> To make things clear: I'm personally closer to the second camp >> than the first. In fact, in keeping with the subject of this >> emai

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > Lately, I've been thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: “Freedom, > Friends, Features, First", particularly in relation to some very > sticky questions about where certain things fit (such as third-party > repositories, free and non-

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:52:24AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > existing "features" foundation. ("Features represents our commitment to > excellence.") Putting friends, features, and first in servitude to that > doesn't feel right. Errr, "friends, freedom, and first". *drinks more coffee* --

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 08:36:55AM -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > To make things clear: I'm personally closer to the second camp than > the first. In fact, in keeping with the subject of this email, I'd > like to suggest a fifth Foundation, one to ultimately supersede all > the rest: "Functional

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

sgallagh wrote: > [...] > > Sometimes this goal prevents us from taking the easy way out by > > including proprietary or patent encumbered software in Fedora, or > > using those kinds of products in our other project work. [...] > > The language in this Foundation is sometimes dangerously unclear

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

On Mon, 2014-04-21 at 08:36 -0400, Stephen Gallagher wrote: > At the same time, we > regularly allow the packaging of software that can interoperate with > non-free software; we allow Pidgin and other IM clients to talk to > Google and AOL, we allow email clients to connect to Microsoft > Exchange,

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

...snip... IMHO, it feels wrong to call this it's own foundation. A foundation is a core value of our community, and this seems like a harsh reality we have to live with. I guess I would prefer to have the 'freedom' foundation clarified some rather than adding this as a foundation. I guess it

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/21/2014 09:08 AM, Haïkel Guémar wrote: > Le 21/04/2014 14:36, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : Lately, I've been > thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: “Freedom, Friends, > Features, First", particularly in relation to some very sticky > questio

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

Le 21/04/2014 14:36, Stephen Gallagher a écrit : -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lately, I've been thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: “Freedom, Friends, Features, First", particularly in relation to some very sticky questions about where certain things fit (such as third-pa

Re: The Forgotten "F": A Tale of Fedora's Foundations

I agree with this completely. Functional capability matters quite a lot and we seem to forget this a lot lately. On Apr 21, 2014 7:35 AM, "Stephen Gallagher" wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Lately, I've been thinking a lot about Fedora's Foundations: “Freedom, > Frien